Re: troglodytes

[Left Right via Python-list]

Hahah, as someone with extensive experience of being banned by various
CoC-waving Python online communities' authorities I really enjoyed the
saga. Watching little men grasp for power on the Web to squash their
opponents never stops to amuse me.

On Tue, Aug 13, 2024 at 4:56 PM Michael Torrie via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> On 8/13/24 3:24 AM, Robin Becker via Python-list wrote:
> > I am clearly one of the troglodytes referred to in recent discussions 
> > around the PSF. I've been around in python land
> > for far too long, my eyesight fails etc etc.
> >
> > I feel strongly that a miscarriage of justice has been made in the 3-month 
> > banning of a famous python developer from
> > some areas of discourse.
> >
> > I have had my share of disagreements with others in the past and have been 
> > sometimes violent or disrespectful in emails.
> >
> > I might have been in the kill list of some, but never banned from any 
> > mailing lists.
> >
> > Honest dialogue is much better than imposed silence.
> >
> > -- grumblingly-yrs --
> > Robin Becker
>
> Agreed.  Here's a good summary of the issue:
> https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-shameful-defenestration-of-tim
>
> The PSF has really screwed this up.  Really embarrassing, frankly.  And
> sad.
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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Re: bring back nntp library to python3

[Keith Thompson via Python-list]

"test"  writes:
> why is the nntp library deprecated in recent python versions? they
> clearly lost touch

nntplib is not vanishing into thin air.  It's just not going to be part
of a default Python installation.  (It's not there in Python 3.13.0rc1.)

In my opinion the use of the word "deprecated" is misleading.

$ python3
Python 3.12.4 (main, Jun 27 2024, 13:53:59) [GCC 13.3.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import nntplib
:1: DeprecationWarning: 'nntplib' is deprecated and slated for removal 
in Python 3.13
>>>
$ 



The rationale for removing nntplib and other modules from the default
installation is explained in PEP 0594 .

"""
Back in the early days of Python, the interpreter came with a large
set of useful modules. This was often referred to as “batteries
included” philosophy and was one of the cornerstones to Python’s success
story. Users didn’t have to figure out how to download and install
separate packages in order to write a simple web server or parse email.

Times have changed. With the introduction of PyPI (née Cheeseshop),
setuptools, and later pip, it became simple and straightforward to
download and install packages. Nowadays Python has a rich and vibrant
ecosystem of third-party packages. It’s pretty much standard to either
install packages from PyPI or use one of the many Python or Linux
distributions.

[...]

The nntplib module implements the client side of the Network News
Transfer Protocol (nntp). News groups used to be a dominant platform for
online discussions. Over the last two decades, news has been slowly but
steadily replaced with mailing lists and web-based discussion
platforms. Twisted is also planning to deprecate NNTP support and pynntp
hasn’t seen any activity since 2014. This is a good indicator that the
public interest in NNTP support is declining.

The nntplib tests have been the cause of additional work in the recent
past. Python only contains the client side of NNTP, so the tests connect
to external news servers. The servers are sometimes unavailable, too
slow, or do not work correctly over IPv6. The situation causes flaky
test runs on buildbots.
"""

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) keith.s.thompso...@gmail.com
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */
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Re: troglodytes

[geodandw via Python-list]

On 8/13/24 19:21, Left Right wrote:

Hahah, as someone with extensive experience of being banned by various
CoC-waving Python online communities' authorities I really enjoyed the
saga. Watching little men grasp for power on the Web to squash their
opponents never stops to amuse me.

On Tue, Aug 13, 2024 at 4:56 PM Michael Torrie via Python-list
 wrote:



Why do you have to belittle other people?
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Re: troglodytes

[Left Right via Python-list]

> Why do you have to belittle other people?

Who says I have to? I like to! I like to see people driven by all
sorts of low and reprehensible motives being punished for it. I don't
know if I need to explain this motivation further. I think it's a very
natural feeling. Human nature if you will. The primordial sense of
justice, that was later developed into a bunch of different theories
of how justice might work.
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Re: bring back nntp library to python3

[Ethan Furman via Python-list]

On 8/14/24 13:14, Keith Thompson via Python-list wrote:

> The rationale for removing nntplib and other modules from the default
> installation is explained in PEP 0594 .
>
> """
> The nntplib tests have been the cause of additional work in the recent
> past. Python only contains the client side of NNTP, so the tests connect
> to external news servers. The servers are sometimes unavailable, too
> slow, or do not work correctly over IPv6. The situation causes flaky
> test runs on buildbots.
> """

Sounds like we need somebody to write an NNTP server for the stdlib!  :-)

--
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Re: troglodytes

[Ethan Furman via Python-list]

On 8/14/24 15:19, Left Right via Python-list wrote:
>On 8/14/24 13:26, geodandw via Python-list wrote:

>> Why do you have to belittle other people?

> Who says I have to? I like to! I like to see people driven by all
> sorts of low and reprehensible motives being punished for it. I don't
> know if I need to explain this motivation further. I think it's a very
> natural feeling. Human nature if you will. The primordial sense of
> justice, that was later developed into a bunch of different theories
> of how justice might work.

It is not necessary to belittle in order to enjoy justice.

--
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Re: bring back nntp library to python3

[Left Right via Python-list]

> it became simple and straightforward to
> download and install packages.

I think the right word for this is "delusional". But people get
offended when other people use the right words. Instead they want a
grotesque round-about way of saying the same thing...

So, the grotesque round-about way of saying this, if you are still
reading that is... Even if pip, setuptools and friends worked well
(which they don't) there are big problems that these tools cannot
solve:

* Network partition
* Version mismatch
* Competition between different installer tools
* Increased requirement for vetting and validation
* Shortening shelf life of existing projects

But hey, this is just letting off steam.  Nobody cares.  The decision
was already made and it won't be unmade.  And, in the grand scheme of
things this is a drop in a bucket of the awful decisions that were
guiding Python in the last decade or so.
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Re: bring back nntp library to python3

[Alan Gauld via Python-list]

On 14/08/2024 23:32, Left Right via Python-list wrote:
>> it became simple and straightforward to
>> download and install packages.
> 
> I think the right word for this is "delusional". 

I agree. But even if it worked it doesn't alter the fact
that by not having batteries included it puts the onus on
developers to build complex installs since their clients
can't be expected to use pip etc. And a vanilla python
no longer comes with the batteries. It greatly adds to
the Python users workload even as it lightens the library
maintainers load.

It was certainly one of the main reasons I adopted python
rather than perl. But thankfully I'm retired now so it's
somebody else's problem.

> But hey, this is just letting off steam.  Nobody cares.

Lots of people care but the ability to influence these
decisions seems to have been removed far from the
general python user community. Python has moved from
the BDFL/Bazaar to the Committee/Cathedral. Probably
an inevitable consequence of its current "popularity".

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


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Re: bring back nntp library to python3

[Ethan Furman via Python-list]

On 8/14/24 15:32, Left Right via Python-list wrote:

> I think the right word for this is "delusional". But people get
> offended when other people use the right words. Instead they want a
> grotesque round-about way of saying the same thing...
>
> So, the grotesque round-about way of saying this, if you are still
> reading that is... Even if pip, setuptools and friends worked well
> (which they don't) there are big problems that these tools cannot
> solve:
>
> * Network partition
> * Version mismatch
> * Competition between different installer tools
> * Increased requirement for vetting and validation
> * Shortening shelf life of existing projects
>
> But hey, this is just letting off steam.

No need to hit  if you're just venting.


> Nobody cares.

Yeah, people do.

--
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Re: bring back nntp library to python3

[Ethan Furman via Python-list]

On 8/14/24 15:56, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:

> Lots of people care but the ability to influence these
> decisions seems to have been removed far from the
> general python user community. Python has moved from
> the BDFL/Bazaar to the Committee/Cathedral. Probably
> an inevitable consequence of its current "popularity".

The move came because of the vitriol directed at the BDFL (and others) with every major (and sometimes minor) change to 
Python.


Every action has consequences, and in this case the consequence was that we are 
now run by committee.

--
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Re: bring back nntp library to python3

[dn via Python-list]

On 15/08/24 10:56, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:

On 14/08/2024 23:32, Left Right via Python-list wrote:
Lots of people care but the ability to influence these
decisions seems to have been removed far from the
general python user community. Python has moved from
the BDFL/Bazaar to the Committee/Cathedral. Probably
an inevitable consequence of its current "popularity".



Perhaps in the ?good, old, days when Python was the small, scrappy 
language a strong community formed because there was a strong sense of 
"us" - as in, "us against the world". This atmosphere generates 
"cohesion" within the group.


Does it (still) exist today? Where/when?


Python is a victim of its own success. It is now used in so many 
different fields within computing it is not possible for one person to 
say "I use it all". Thus, when someone says (s)he is a "Python 
Programmer" what is meant is most-likely one of web/front-end work, 
back-end/server/networking, data science, machine learning, etc.


As a PUG-Leader, this a daunting part of trying to generate and keep 
'community'. 'Data science people' won't attend 'web' meetings 
(by-and-large), and vice-versa - indeed some even feel the 'right' to 
moan that some other area of Python happens to be the topic for the next 
meeting.


The converse view (which is seldom well-taken if offered as a riposte to 
such complaints) is that if folk volunteer in some way, their efforts 
will (most likely) be embraced with gratitude - but how many do make 
such offers/participate in a practical fashion!


Whither community? Cohesion?


Thus, a grave difficulty for leaders who are unable to see these sorts 
of concerns - and act accordingly. A shift that should have occurred 
within steering groups as Python grew in popularity, was to add 
applications-expertise to the central group of Core Maintainers. 
However, unless there is trust and respect between members, one may be 
(too) quick to reject comments and ideas from 'another'.


Perhaps Python's state-of-democracy is heavily influenced by 
nation-state politics, where the desire for division seems to be 
overwhelming ideas of community/society? How does such benefit community 
- those represented?



Growth and size will inevitably require adaption. Almost inevitably it 
brings 'structure'. Whereas some do care (per @Alan's point), the 
average Python-programmer probably doesn't understand the current 
structures, and might even eschew such/reject their need.


How does this fit with "community"? What is personal-responsibility? 
What channels should folk be using? Are members of the community feeling 
'heard'?



If a committee perceives themselves besieged, the tendency is to look 
inwards and become determinedly-defensive - which, in cases like this, 
is likely the exact opposite of what the decision's opponents desire!


How should a 'community' handle such? How should decisions be made, and 
then communicated in such a way as to promote and build community, even 
though some members may be disappointed?



Recently there was an election for PSF members. Did 'everyone' participate?

What decision-making processes are usable in the face of such large 
numbers - and how seriously are/would they be taken by 'the average 
Python user'?


--
Regards,
=dn
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Re: troglodytes

[Mike Dewhirst via Python-list]

On 14/08/2024 12:54 am, Michael Torrie via Python-list wrote:

On 8/13/24 3:24 AM, Robin Becker via Python-list wrote:

I am clearly one of the troglodytes referred to in recent discussions around 
the PSF. I've been around in python land
for far too long, my eyesight fails etc etc.

I feel strongly that a miscarriage of justice has been made in the 3-month 
banning of a famous python developer from
some areas of discourse.

I have had my share of disagreements with others in the past and have been 
sometimes violent or disrespectful in emails.

I might have been in the kill list of some, but never banned from any mailing 
lists.

Honest dialogue is much better than imposed silence.

-- grumblingly-yrs --
Robin Becker

Agreed.  Here's a good summary of the issue:
https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-shameful-defenestration-of-tim

The PSF has really screwed this up.  Really embarrassing, frankly.  And
sad.


I read Chris McDonough's defence of Tim Peters and he has convinced me. 
Not because of everything he said but because I have experience of 
committees. And other things.


The problem is generational.

Later generations can see the faults of earlier generations in brilliant 
hindsight. I certainly did.


In my case, those earlier generations caused depressions and world wars. 
That was pretty bad wasn't it?


Can I blame my ancestors for that? My great-grandparents were born in 
the second half of the 1800s; my grandparents in the late 1800s. They 
were undoubtedly responsible for WW1 and the great depression wouldn't 
you say?


So my parents who grew up after WW1 and both fought in WW2 were forced 
to give the best years of their lives to the worst of times. Not their 
fault. In fact they were heroic to do all that and have me and my 
siblings starting in their mid-twenties.


Here's the rub: they had serious faults and I could see them clearly - 
when I was in my twenties and having children of my own.


I'll be 80 next year and I have a clearer perspective now.

I now understand why the oldest known culture (60k+ years) survived 
intact for so long including the last few thousand years of trading 
between Australia and Asia and more recent centuries with Europe. It 
wasn't entirely due to isolation. In fact there were hundreds of 
separate nations and languages in Australia so no-one was all that 
isolated. They had traders and diplomats and warriors just like the rest 
of humanity.


The difference isn't with them it is with us. We have lost what keeps 
them together. They respect their elders. We don't. They had to because 
their survival depended on lore and knowledge which was passed orally 
across generations.


The real difference is the invention of the printing press and its 
successors right down to television and the internet.


We no longer rely on our elders for knowledge.

That has eroded respect.

With each generation the erosion gets worse. When I was a child, my 
parents gave me a bike and a set of encyclopedia. They tested me on my 
knowledge and taught me other stuff too, which I can't remember now but 
I could look it up.


Our children got bikes and encyclopedia too but they were growing up 
after Germaine Greer published "The Female Eunuch". They are Gen Xers. 
That means they became totally aware of female emancipation and the 
comcomitant male emancipation and other isms.


Knowledge is a small part of life. You have heard "it's not what you 
know, it's who you know".


Inherited wealth solves all problems for the wealthy because that 
inheritance includes every "who" who matters. For the rest of us getting 
on with people is what really matters. Without the right "who", survival 
is at risk. All the knowledge in the world is at our fingertips today 
and still our survival needs to be curated.


So PSF Board members survival depends not on knowledge nor on having 
policies and codes of conduct but on the right "who".


The survival of the Board and perhaps even the P language itself depends 
on elders.


Elders have something which was well respected by earlier generations. 
That is lore which is steeped in experience. Leadership can be taught 
and learned. Experience has to be experienced. Young people almost by 
definition, don't have it. "Young" is obviously a relative term given 
one's perspective.


Experience and respect for experience kept the oldest known culture on 
the planet functioning for a very long time. Even the advent of the web 
has not detracted from that respect.


The PSF Board should reflect on their lack of respect for experience and 
try to retrieve any damage that lack of respect may have done to the 
very thing they were elected to look after.


I'm old and I respect Tim's age and would not expect him to suffer the 
load of becoming BDFL but by golly that would be my preference.




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Re: bring back nntp library to python3

[gene heskett via Python-list]

On 8/14/24 19:43, dn via Python-list wrote:


Recently there was an election for PSF members. Did 'everyone' participate?


Of course not, I didn't simply because I don't know enough have a cogent 
opinion. But conversations like this are would seem to be good if they 
don't degenerate into name calling.  As I look at my nintyieth in a 
month or so I always hope next year will be better.  Please make it so.


What decision-making processes are usable in the face of such large 
numbers - and how seriously are/would they be taken by 'the average 
Python user'?




Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

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