Re: [opensource-dev] What's with the rename?
if I'm not mistaken, this is hosted on a secondlife.com domain, correct? what's the difference? On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 13:21, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin) < mag...@matrisync.com> wrote: > > 2010/2/5 Kakurady Drakenar > >> > >> I don't like the name "opensource-dev". The old name, SLDev, fits just > >> well - i > > Yes, but Linden Research owns "SL". > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Announce: realXtend Naali 0.1 (alpha) client viewer
Sounds silly, but A.) Will it work in the normal Grid and B.) Work in 64-bit linux? On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:27, Nexii Malthus wrote: > Impressive stuff, my praise goes to the realXtend team for their work. > Going to try it out right now. > > - Nexii > > > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Ryan McDougall wrote: > >> realXtend is proud to announce the first major alpha release of its >> groundbreaking multi-use virtual world client viewer, Naali. We are >> hoping this release will see widespread user testing, to help us >> refine and improve our work. Naali is alpha software and missing many >> features, but we hope, with your feedback, to make Naali the "Firefox" >> of virtual worlds. >> >> Demo video can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iiE66hY-RU >> >> Both source code and binaries can be found on our project website: >> http://code.google.com/p/realxtend-naali/ >> >> Naali is released under the Apache 2.0 software license, and available >> for the following platforms: >> >> * Windows: Binary installer >> * Linux: Full source and build instructions >> * Mac: In progress >> >> Naali is implemented in C++ (using Qt and Ogre3D) and Python. Bindings >> for JavaScript are also planned. It is designed using a modular and >> scalable architecture, with easy repurposing for a wide variety of >> applications by simply dropping in new components. >> >> Naali is intended to work with any virtual world protocol through its >> modular architecture, however currently only support for SLUDP-based >> protocols through OpenSim are implemented. >> >> Naali comes with a reference server implementation called Taiga, >> which adds mesh-based assets, Python server-side scripting, web login >> with OpenID, and inventory over WebDAV. >> >> Naali is it true open-source project, which means the community has a >> voice in guiding the direction of the project, and commit access is >> available to contributors with a proven track record of quality >> patches. >> >> Please join us on our mailing lists: >> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend >> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend-dev >> >> Or on IRC, on Freenode >> #realxtend >> #realxtend-dev >> >> More information can be found on our website: >> http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Main_Page >> >> Ryan McDougall >> http://www.realxtend.org >> ___ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Product Testing
I'm looking for a few people to test a product of mine, maybe help with some documentation (if you want).You can get it off of XStreet for free. https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=2101874If you aren't able to get a copy (due to it running out), just let me know via email in here, or send me an IM in-world @ Jon Desmoulins. I'm mainly looking for some usability suggestions, generic testing, or whatever you are willing to do. Hell, if you just want a copy and want to throw some ideas my way, that works too. I'm also looking for some help with documentation. I find that documentation is better when the creator doesn't do it. I don't want to have that sound like a cop out, I do all my own documentation, but it's always more understandable collaborating with others. Thanks for the help guys ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] step by step guide to compiling snowglobe
That's the open-source way. Regardless of community, we're still human and us humans love ownership...whether its taking our favorite phone and customizing it with all our favorite apps or taking the concept of a viewer and releasing our own spin on it. I gotta give credit to the Emerald folks for pushing their own ideas and moving forward with it and then watch it blossom into one of the most-used 3rd-party viewers out there. Developers kill for that kind of recognition. I think they should keep on trucking on their current path and when Viewer II comes out, use the positives of it, fix the negatives, and make an Emerald II viewer. I can only imagine the possibilities! As far as SnowGlobe goes, I wish it was more modular like linux goes. To where we can add packages or remove them from the base install to grant us this or that. When one module gets updated we can just download it as needed. Also*Hey Linden Labs, when are we going to put Second Life in linux package format so we can just link to your repo and have us be able to install and upgrade from our respective package managers, i.e Yum & Apt-Get? * On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:53, Tayra Dagostino wrote: > On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:36:13 +0100 > Carlo Wood wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 02:30:07PM -0500, kow wrote: > > > Snowglobe should work out of the box with VS2005. Emerald and > > > Imprudence are easier options if you're using VS2008. I believe the > > > only issue with VS2008 + snowglobe is boost, and the libs from > > > Emerald or Imprudence can be dropped in to fix that. > > > > One would wonder why Emerald can fix this, and LL can't. > > why ppl don't understand how work a opensource community, and prefer > work on own project in place to work together for a common powerfull > project... > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Second Life Package Repo
Moving this to it's own thread... Hey Linden Labs, when are we going to put Second Life in linux package format so we can just link to your repo and have us be able to install and upgrade from our respective package managers, i.e Yum & Apt-Get? This would really speed up the way we handle SnowGlobe. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Eclipse Guru's
I do often hear complaints and wishes for new build tools, what about us LSL devs? Some things I would like are: 1. Better IDE in SL Viewer 2. API for compiling in LSL using various IDEs already available 3. Going along with #1, as suggested, integrating Eclipse or equivalent in SL. 4. LSL Wiki built into the editor 5. Detachable script editing window (To develop on one monitor & test in the other) 6. Entity relationship diagram system in SL viewer for visual coding. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Cloud-Based Sim Hosting, Dynamic Sim Scaling, & Storage
*This one is for the Lindens* Ok, I've heard some rumors that Linden Labs is going to move to a more cloud-based storage system for asset management (which excites me greatly) to reduce asset-related errors, allow easier rollback, and greater redundancy. What I'm interested in knowing is that if LL is going to also persue this in terms of dynamic sim scaling, perhaps even to a point of charging per simulator hour versus a flat rate that you have to adjust as the technology progresses (potentially this could be a Class 6 server). The benefits of Cloud-based operations are intense. I would love to see LL utilise this as an option to have either a cheap sim, the lowest echelon of the cloud server structure, or even scale up to larger setups if you need it for more prim allotment or user concurrency within that region. Do we have any plans for stuff like this? Thanks LL! ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] [server-beta] Script Memory Management Algorithm
Truth be told, we're all humans. Give a monkey enough rope to hang himself and he probably will. A dynamic system makes sense because the people who only need a small slice can live happily and the people who need more resources have the flexibility they need... Of course, those are ideal conditions. What can happen (which, may not happen all the time) is you have some asshat who decides to script an endless loop and ends up crashing the sim. I'm all for this 100%, but as long as LL does something to cover their assets and prevent any one person from overloading the system, that would be cool. Maybe we can handle scripts like Linux handles memory. Use up an allotted space based on requirements and if it exceeds that (among other scripts using the same shared environment) it can begin to swap in it's own little cluster. Maybe in the future, SL scripts can have their own dedicated memory. For example, similar to our asset servers, we can have the scripts use memory on a massive cluster of servers allowing the sims to handle stuff like rezzing, etc. Separating the scripts from the rest of the sims would be cool in theory because it would prevent isolated sim crashing as all the load would be distributed between a ton of machines. And LL already has grey goo prevention. So rez freaks can't take over. People can disable particles as well and that will cover particle spam. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0^H^H^H1.3 way forward?
Keep in mind, this is still in beta. If you have an issue in the main viewer, use snowglobe. If you have an issue with snowglobe, code it yourself. If you can't code it yourself, then there's no need to blame Linden Labs for it. Being in SL for 5 years has enlightened me to the fact that some people enjoy being miserable and broadcasting their misery to others. SL gets the job done for what it is. If you don't think so, uninstall the client and go about your life. You don't need to throw your woes at others the same way monkeys fling feces. I think M Linden is exactly what LL needs. Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE fan of what Philip brought to the table with his visions. M Linden is good in the sense that he is focused on making SL a better place for new and old users alike. LL has made great strides with what they have had to work with in the past 2 years. And they are taking it one step at a time. I'm ok with that. Viewer 2 is awesome, I suspect it will be even more awesome in the coming year. The new stuff they are implementing in the server code is awesome as well. ***Keep giving us more functions in LSL*** I would also like LSL to be more OO-centric. OOP in LSL would be awesome. Also, I would love a llInclude(), llRequireOnce(), etc functions so we can implement libraries and classes into our objects. On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 14:00, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > On 2010-03-12, at 11:57, Morgaine wrote: > > The answer to all of these UI issues is simply client-side scripting. > > That's AN answer. It's not the RIGHT answer (at least not to THIS > question, it's the right answer to a bunch of other questions, just > not this one), but it's certainly AN answer. > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Off-Topic Emails
* I'm probably going to get flamed for this * Egos aside, folks. I rely on the scripting, open-source, and sl-beta mailing lists to interact with peers on technical topics related to the mailing list I'm subscribed to. This is a great platform for networking as well as learning about new ways to do things and even interact with Linden Labs. One thing I love is hearing all the different ways to accomplish things and hearing the new things the Lindens are throwing out into the wild. That being said... Lately, I've seen many of you light your keyboards on fire with the things said on the opensource mailing list. Either you are hating on LL or you are hating on people that don't agree with you. In any case, even with gmail, you are inflating my mailbox & wasting bandwidth with your opinions. Calm down, there are better things in life to be concerned about right now. I *assume* that we are all adults here so I'd expect you all to act professionally. Yes, I said professionally. Believe it or not, whether you are using your RL name or SL name, you are a professional on some level or another. You represent yourself. You represent Second Life including Linden Labs. Just being a resident means you are apart of it all...and all that comes with it. So, and I believe I speak for all on this: 1. Be professional and courteous. 2. Think positive. 3. Don't blame others for your problems. 4. Don't blame Linden Labs, Lindens, the SL Client for XYZ. 5. If you think something should be fixed, take initiative to fix it. Get people involved, network, develop, etc. If your idea gets rejected, take your feedback responsibly. Rethink it, if possible, or put it on the backburner for later. Don't lash out because others don't feel the same way about your idea. 6. If you don't someone's way of thinking, provide counter-points as needed, but don't lash out because your ego was hurt. 7. If you can't be professional or LL or SL has you at your wits end, just uninstall your client, leave the mailing list, and save us all bandwidth and time. I'm not trying to offend any one and if you are offended by what was said, please close the email. Just to save you some time, if you need to vent, vent to a blog, facebook, twitter, etc. Venting here to me will just fall on deaf ears and you will be wasting your time making a point in the first place. While this email may not fix the off-topic posts, hopefully it will remind everyone that we are in a professional environment and it does behoove us to act accordingly. Otherwise, we'll never get anywhere. Personally, I can see why LL doesn't want to work with us. Think about what they have to deal with! That's my L$2. -JI ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Fwd: Known details of LL 'Firefly' client-side scripting
Jonathan Irvin Cell: +1-318-426-5253 Email: djfoxys...@gmail.com -- Forwarded message -- From: Jonathan Irvin Date: Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 16:33 Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Known details of LL 'Firefly' client-side scripting To: Argent Stonecutter I smell Phish. Jonathan Irvin Cell: +1-318-426-5253 Email: djfoxys...@gmail.com On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 16:20, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > On 2010-03-17, at 16:06, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > > This is why I pointed to the sandbox model with the tried and proven > > virtualization means of linux emulation as an example. One can > > easily allow untrusted code to execute natively in the linux > > emulation. > > No you can't. Even in a virtual machine, badly behaved code can > compromise you. If you allow it access to resources in Second Life, it > can attack those resources. If you allow it to interact with your view > of the world, it can substitute elements displayed in that view. If > you allow it to make network connections, it can take part in a > botnet. If you run other code in that sandbox (other untrusted code > from a different source) it can compromise that. If you create a > separate VM for each piece of code, then the overhead of your > sandboxes becomes unmanageable. You can't just say "it's in a sandbox". > > > Let's say BLIZZARD decided to release a software download inside of > > SL. You can use L$ to buy your next game of BLIZZARD directly inside > > SL. > > If that involves downloading a file to disk and explicitly making a > deliberate decision to open and install that file, fine. If it > involves a scripted vendor being able to download and install native > code through an API in some sandbox in the viewer, no, that would be > bad. Because if BLIZZARD can use that API, then so can the PN and W- > Hat and SomethingAwful. > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Request for clarification on mailing list guidelines
Yeah more or less the lists are discussion-oriented for the most part. When I think of JIRA, I think of more serious items to be presented to the business for more guided discussions and DoesThisPatchReallyMakeSense tests. I also agree with Carlo, JIRA is for facts not opinions...but JIRA has turned into well-documented whining, complete with a database entry and ticket id. Then again, Linden Labs doesn't really have a customer-facing ticket system like most companies do and while they are a service industry, I don't blame them due to being primarily a software-oriented company. They want to focus on stability and tracking and JIRA is an excellent tool to do that, but I think it wouldn't hurt for a plain ol customer & technical support system that is not JIRA. @Sheet, the mailing list is perfectly fine for collaboration. Taking it to the Wiki only means I get to flame in wiki syntax (Yay!) yeah, like that will happen. If we wanted to have fun, let's get a Buzz going or forums. And not SL forums, I'm talking good ol' fashioned phpbb. And to me, JIRA is way too bloated to have a decent conversation over a simple topic. That's what makes Gmail so awesome. Jonathan Irvin On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 12:06, Carlo Wood wrote: > Imho, the jira should be used for technical facts regarding a bug only, > and not for opinions. General feedback is better discussed on this list. > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 08:38:53AM -0500, Sheet Spotter wrote: > > If a topic generates more than five replies in less than 24 hours, it's > time to > > redirect that conversation to one of our other tools, either the wiki, > the bug > > tracker, or a thread in the appropriate forum. > > > > There are a few discussions occurring in [opensource-dev] which have been > > occurring for a considerable time. These discussions each have a JIRA > entry > > that deals with the specific issue. > > -- > Carlo Wood > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe Mecurial Repository
If I'm not mistaken, Hg is distributed like Git. Jonathan Irvin On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 05:12, Carlo Wood wrote: > What is the advantage again of hg (over svn)? (why the move) > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 05:18:54PM -0700, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > >It would > > be the wrong impression, further, to assume the same committers will > > take on the extra load to help move to hg. > > -- > Carlo Wood > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] food for (funny) thoughts...
You're damn right it does! I just installed the LTS Beta 1 on my system yesterday. Had a few quirks, but other than that it worked fine. Not much difference between Karmic, but I suspect more to come in Beta 2, RC, and Final. Jonathan Irvin Cell: +1-318-426-5253 Email: djfoxys...@gmail.com On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 03:20, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Just saw an announcement for ubuntu 10.04... > > is it just me or does the colorscheme of SL 2.0 really fit into 10.04's > default desktop color scheme like a foot in a sock? > > http://is.gd/aSANa > > > *grin* > > > LC > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Client 2.0 - sidebar (was: Re: Open Development project: extending avatarwearables)
As I've said before, If you don't like it, fix it. The code is there so think up something more useful and do it. Giving an example is a great idea. I use the adobe suite often; however, the Lindens already have spent plenty of money with a design company to get the look that they want. Switching to the 1.23 design isn't available yet so giving that as an option for 2.x isn't there yet. So, use the 2.0 design. Jonathan Irvin On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 08:28, wrote: > Bryon Ruxton wrote .. > > > Could you please stop putting everything into that sidebar as the only > way > > to access stuff. > > Yah, it's just bad. Have a look at the Adobe Creative Suite UIs. You can > hide any single submenu or entry, you can mark each one with one of several > colors, you can move around all the windows, make them single floaters > outside the main window or be part of the main window container, you can > dock them on any side, you can 'stack' them so you have them tabbed, you can > even create your own windows with the menu entries you really need. > > A static (and not general usability rules following) UI is bad. Everyone > has it's own needs. And the translations make it even worse. Where Ctrl-` > for a snapshot becomes Ctrl-ö on the german keyboard, where something like > Ctrl-y would be so much better because usable with one hand. > > Naybe you wanted to clean up the clutter of all the different windows by > stacking them into the right bar... but with all the small notice popups and > the additional "you just declined xy " windows the screen clutter got > even WORSE than in the 1.23 clients. :-( > > Tillie > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Client 2.0 - sidebar (was: Re: Open Development project: extending avatarwearables)
Not to be rude, but if people are getting vertigo, epilepsy, etc. from SL...viewer 2.0 isn't going to make a difference. Viewer 1.23 would have the same effect. Maybe not in your coveted sidebar, but it SL in general. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. This is common knowledge. LCD monitors nowadays will cause those effects *regardless* of the application running, so please don't make someone else's illness as your point in voicing your opinions. Keep this in mind, your post accomplishes *nothing*. Do you really think Linden Labs wants to waste company money on replying to complaints of your calibre? They already know, trust me. Linden Labs is a small company and you can't expect them to reply to every single Tom, Dick, and Harriet that wants to complain about this feature or that feature. OpenSource-Dev is about fixing issues, not complaining about them. This list is for developers to collaborate, not tech support for your complaints. If you want to vent, for heaven's sake do that in a personal blog, twitter, facebook, etc. Please follow these SIMPLE STEPS before you waste our time in reading yet another "I-hate-LL-viewer-2.0-and-they-should-fix-it-post." 1. Has it been logged in JIRA? - Yes, Comment on it there. - No, Log it in JIRA. Linden Labs CAN view JIRA, so posting about specific articles becomes redundancy at that point. All you need to do is vote for the JIRA topic. Once you've logged your vote you can either get others to vote, or sit quietly. Complaining about a feature and throwing around JIRA articles accomplishes nothing except annoy those who have to hear that same story, yet again. And while the Lindens do monitor this, for the most part, you are preaching to the choir. So please, if you aren't going to pull up your sleeves and FIX IT, then don't waste our time. We know, the Linden's know. Your post was unnecessary. Jonathan Irvin P.S. Sorry for any one else who had to hear my rant. Thanks. On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 14:51, Maya Remblai < snowfox...@dragonkeepcreations.com> wrote: > Ok, I was trying to be diplomatic, but now I'm going to be frank. > > It disturbs me that LL is ignoring how dangerous the shifting behavior > of the sidebar and the blinking and winking of 2.0 is. Some people have > already had or come close to having seizures because of it, and people > without epilepsy are having motion sickness and vertigo. LL has been > warned about it, especially on the JIRA, but the complaints haven't been > acknowledged. If LL loves 2.0 so much, the very least they're going to > have to do is include a video game style seizure warning on startup. > > Read the comments on this JIRA entry. > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17249 > > Here's the meta for all sidebar issues. The comments on most of these > point out the photosensitivity issue. > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17012 > > Maya > > Maya Remblai wrote: > > All interesting ideas, but it would be prudent to include a floater as > > an option. Not only will it make things easier on experienced users and > > those who don't like the sidebar, it will make things easier for the > > devs making versions of Viewer 2.0 for photo-sensitive people to use > > without issue. > > > > Maya > > > > Nyx Linden wrote: > > > >> Good question! There is still a lot of detail left out of these > >> descriptions, but we are planning on moving the UI in the appearance > >> editor into the sidebar, along with creating a new outfit editor UI. > >> You will still see the results of the changes you are making on your > >> avatar in-world in real time. There will still be an "editing > >> appearance" mode as you have now, it will just be accompanied by a > >> panel in the sidebar instead of a separate floater. > >> > >> - Nyx > >> > >> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 6:56 PM, Argent Stonecutter > >> mailto:secret.arg...@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> > >> > >> On 2010-03-22, at 12:45, Nyx Linden wrote: > >> > >> 1) A new panel to edit what is stored in your saved outfit > without > >> creating a new one. > >> This will include both an inventory view and a view of your > >> outfit > >> itself, so you can drag items from your inventory to your > >> outfit without > >> having an extra floater open > >> 2) Editing of wearable items (body parts and/or clothing > >> objects) in the > >> sidebar, selectable from the outfit editor > >> 3) Removal of the appearance floa
Re: [opensource-dev] Open Development project: extendingavatar wearables
Interesting topic. Thought I'd share some thoughts. 1. I like the idea of wearables being in folders allowing the user to drag and drop the article in different folders to taste. This allows the user to choose where the wearable goes. 2. Adding to that, we can create limits on the object-level that the creator can set. Similar to permissions, the content creator can choose where the object can actually go. (i.e. underwear can be pants and underwear), shirts can be jackets or vice versa. 3. On the avatar, we can keep the render order the same, but tie those areas to meta folders. I think the impact would be minimal, but a neat system to use. 4. Flexi clothing articles would be awesome. I can only imagine the first female avatar doing the classic Marilyn Monroe pose over an air duct. :) Please, keep up the discussion. This is interesting. Jonathan Irvin On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 13:12, Carlo Wood wrote: > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 01:48:39PM -0400, Nyx Linden wrote: > > My initial answer to that request is "we don't have time to implement > > that right now", but I'd be happy to have a more in-depth technical > > discussion as to how that could be implemented in the future. If the > > community is able to come up with a proposed implementation where layer > > order is truly arbitrary, regardless of wearable type, without damaging > > the intuitiveness of the user interface or expanding required > > development time too far, I'd love to go over such a proposal. > > This seems rather trivial... just allow one to explicitely > drop a wearable in any folder (ie, a shirt in a jacket folder), > after which you can move it up and down "as usual" (what you > implement right now). > > How have a new problem however: Why not allow to tuck jackets in? > That means: a jacket having an abitrary order related to shirts > and other jackets is fine, but even if it goes over all other > jackets, you might still want to put it below the pants. > > Since a jacket is currently the only wearable that extends over > two textures (apart from the new "tatoo" containing three textures, > and the skin, both of which kinda make sense to always be on > the bottom), it make sense to have, or NEED, an ordering relative > to pants too! After all, both pants and jackets have a lower-texture! > > For example (top layer on top): > > * jacket Y (not tucked in) > * jacket X (tucked in) > > Just means for the LOWER texture, this ordering: > > * jacket Y (not tucked in) > * pants > * jacket X (tucked in) > > There should be an ordering between jackets and pants > as well thus, which is entirely missing in your current proposal. > > Perhaps a solution is to add a pseudo item in the "jackets" > category that appears as a horizontal line, and where things > below the line are tucked in, and above it are not: > > shirts: >* shirt > > jackets: > * jacket Y > tucked in- > * jacket X > > pants: > * pants > > Otherwise it is not unlikely that the vendors will (have to) > resort to a hack where selling jackets also as pants+shirts, > so users can choose to tuck them in or not. > > -- > Carlo Wood > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Open Development project: extendingavatarwearables
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 06:56, Carlo Wood wrote: > It bothers me a bit that we (you) would choose to go > for an implementation that is not the best or the > ideal one, ONLY because you want to push out a new > feature "in time". > *Carlo, it pains me to see you have this attitude towards the Lindens...especially those who are in here trying to communicate with us. ***Linden Labs has limited resources*** They can't just magically allocate time and money to a feature that would be awesome because you think so. They have time and money constraints.* > > Personally, I'd first design how I'd want it to look > from the user point of view (what most of the discussion > from the community is about) without taking into account > coding arguments. And once we have that, I'd just > implement it, no matter the costs or time needed. > That is what coders do: they implement what is requested. > This is a blind perspective to have. Coding constraints come into play because coding takes time and when you are on a payroll with a budget, time = money. You have to sacrifice the really awesome feature that will take a while for the ones that are easy, but have an ok benefit. *The Lindens aren't tools, my friend. Perhaps showing more respect for them will give you respect in return by getting us new features. And, keep in mind, this is an OpenSource forum. If you have an idea, make it happen and pitch it to us. Code it yourself and post it to the open forum. The lindens have enough on their plate as it is which is why they went the opensource route to begin with...having the assistance of the community make a better product.* > > Thus, since for almost everything we said so far your > argument is: we can't do that within the given timeframe; > can you defend, or at least make acceptable and understandable > that "a" new feature has to be added in 3 months, even if > that new feauture is a bit inferior compared to what > that UI could have looked like? > *Again, show some respect here. The lindens have a lot on their plate and are wanting you to make a business case for this. They need to know a feasible, tangible way they can impliment feature ABC while not over taxing their resources. Also, this feature needs to be used by the whole and not a small percentage of users.* > > Changing it AGAIN in the near future (ie, 6 months later) > is probably not going to happen for several reasons :/ > So, not doing it right now has almost the same implications > as deciding to never do it. I'd really like to understand > why that is the best thing to do. > > Thanks for discussing this with us, > Carlo Wood > > PS With regards to the UI design. > I like the concept of "click wear" inserts the wearable > in a default place, after which you can reorder it. > And where this inserting means "at the top of a folder > that one of the currently existing wearable categories". > It just makes sense. > > But, in the end the goal should be that wearer can > determine the order of every texture layer, or at > least to a great extend, including: > - Tucking in jackets or not (jacket <-> pants ordering) > (my proposal was to add a pseudo jacket, below or > above which other jackets are below or above the pants). > - Wearing shirts over jackets (jacket <-> shirt ordering) > (proposal was to be able to dump a jacket in the 'shirt' > folder if one wishes). > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > *In conclusion, have a little more common courtesy. The fact that the Lindens are participating as often as they are and engaging in good conversation should be something you shouldn't take for granted. Think good business.* ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] [Linux] Frequent crashes with last Viewer 2 beta release
Hey OO, You might want to consider installing the beta for 10.04 as it has been released recently. But, I will pop in to linux and verify that with you. Approx. how long into your session does it crash? What where you going that made it crash, etc.? This way I can see if I can duplicate it, if possible. I'm also using Ubuntu 10.04, but I'm using the beta version. Jonathan Irvin On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 13:42, Opensource Obscure wrote: > > Viewer 2 Beta is crashing much often since its last release, > even with Run Multiple Threads and Deferred Rendering options > disabled. These are mostly crashes, with the application > closing immediately; freezes are rarer than crashes, but > still happening more often than in previous releases. > > As a feeling .. this is related to rendering, as most crashes > appear while I'm moving the view around. > > I'm on Linux Ubuntu 10.04 alpha with Nvidia video card. > Anyone else is experiencing this? > I didn't reported it yet. > > opensource obscure > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions?
Keep in mind, most of this "legalese" that they have is just to cover their own asses. Many MANY companies do stuff like this just in case that if something ever escalates to a point where those words come to play in court, they have all their P's and Q's. Linden Labs is a company, folks...a company that has a budget, a bottom-line, and most of all liable assets in which they need to protect in order to keep themselves afloat and give us all something to rant about ( I'm just kidding :P ). An age-old question comes to mind... "How many programmers does it take to change a lightbulb?" Answer One, Zero, we don't have the source code for it. Answer Two, Zero, it's a hardware issue. Jonathan Irvin On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 03:54, Gareth Nelson wrote: > An interesting point: > If a member of staff at LL is basically saying "none of you can > comprehend this policy", then that surely means none of us can > actually consent to agree to it. > > Q - you may have just provided some "fuel" for use in any future court case > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Morgaine > wrote: > > On 21st March, Q Linden explained to us that legalese is not a language > > amenable to "common sense" interpretation, and more specifically, that > > programmers like ourselves should not expect to understand this Linden > TPV > > policy document using our normal logic and our normal dictionary. I'll > > repeat his words here for clarity: > > > > > > Kent Quirk (Q Linden) q at lindenlab.com > > Sun Mar 21 10:24:13 PDT 2010 > > > > I'm emphatically not a lawyer and I don't speak for our legal team. But: > > > > Legalese is a specialized language. It's not strictly English, and it's > not > > always amenable to "common sense" interpretation. Think of lawyers as > people > > who write code in an underspecified language for a buggy compiler, and > you > > begin to understand why legalese is the way it is. There's a lot of law > that > > isn't stated, but is actually implied by the context of the existing > settled > > law. What that means is that if you're not a lawyer, you probably > shouldn't > > be attempting to interpret legal documents -- especially not for other > > people. Similarly, if you're not a programmer, attempting to interpret > > program source code is a risky business. Programmers are especially > > susceptible to trying to interpret legal documents using a normal > dictionary > > because they're logical thinkers. That doesn't always work. If you have > > legal questions about the implication of documents, you should ask a > lawyer, > > not a mailing list. > > > > Similarly, any comment by one of Linden's lawyers in this forum or any > other > > could possibly be treated as legally binding. That also goes for Linden > > employees, especially those with any seniority. So you're unlikely to get > > further remarks or "clarifications", except general statements that don't > > address specific questions. The policy was revised based on comments on > this > > list and elsewhere. That's probably a pretty good indication that Linden > > Lab's lawyers now think it's clear enough to state its intent and to > stand > > up in court if they need it to. > > > > Q > > > > > > I've been thinking about this extraordinary post and its relationship to > our > > ongoing saga about the TPV, and I fail to see how any rational person > could > > agree to something unknown, except under duress. Is it even legal to be > > required to agree to the incomprehensible? Does anyone know how the law > > works in this area? > > > > The GPL license was written by FSF lawyers specifically to be understood > by > > programmers, so it's no surprise that the large majority of people here > > understand it. Given that Lindens claim that they are issuing a valid GPL > > license, perhaps one might accept that at face value, and assume that > GPLv2 > > clauses 6, 7, 11 and 12 remain intact and valid. Therefore there are no > > "further restrictions" imposed on SL TPV developers (clause 6), and the > "NO > > WARRANTY" clause (11-12) continues to protect developers from downstream > > liability, and no "conditions are imposed on you that contradict the > > conditions of this License" thus making the license valid (clause 7). > > > > Given the forgoing, the officially incomprehensible TPV document then no > > longe
Re: [opensource-dev] A note on preserving "NO WARRANTY" for SL TPV developers
Linden Labs could care less about what you put in your viewer. They are concerned about their product, which is Second Life. If YOUR viewer connects to THEIR network, heck yeah you can be liable for it...maybe not in the traditional sense, but you can agree you hold some responsibility for your actions. All that "legalese" is to prevent us, the developers, from shrugging our shoulders and saying "Oops, my bad." LL is covering their backs. Regardless of how you phrase it, code it, compile it...without the Second Life service. Your viewer is a brick. I don't know anyone's tenure here in SL, and I won't ask. But, I remember "real" grid crashes. I remember before there was the grey goo fence and people taking down the grid with the OFFICIAL SecondLife viewer. With Third-Party viewers coming into play and Linden Labs releasing more and more bits of their service to the users, there has to be regulation and restrictions in order to protect the business. There is infinitely more chance for something to go wrong when you throw third-party viewers in the mix. Jonathan Irvin On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 06:04, Carlo Wood wrote: > On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 04:06:52PM +, Gareth Nelson wrote: > > LL as copyright holder (or joint holder) can change the GPL with extra > > restrictions as much as they like - so long as they make it clear. > > That would be EXTREMELY against the spirit of open source and the use > of GPL. It would also make it impossible for any TPV to use their code > anymore: TPV's added patches that are pure-GPL. LL does not have copyright > on those patches, so those remain GPL. Therefore it is not possible > to link code resulting from those patches with code that is GPL+TPVP, > which would be non-GPL because it has extra restrictions. > > Thus, if this is true (or if they'd do that in the future) then it is > EXTERMELY important to understand; because it DOES mean that all TPV's > have to stop using any additional code released by LL after 30 April 2010. > > -- > Carlo Wood > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] A note on preserving "NO WARRANTY" for SL TPV developers
Griefers...hah. I haven't seen a talented griefer in a while. While you are correct, people with malicious attempts have no regard for policies, it's still every much in Linden Lab's right to protect itself from those liabilities of allowing third-party viewers to connect to its service. It's no different than allowing people to connect to an open network and expecting them not to abuse it. You have to protect yourself. Jonathan Irvin On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 13:13, Gareth Nelson wrote: > Do you think griefers are going to care about the TPV, or any policy > for that matter? > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Jonathan Irvin > wrote: > > Linden Labs could care less about what you put in your viewer. They are > > concerned about their product, which is Second Life. If YOUR viewer > > connects to THEIR network, heck yeah you can be liable for it...maybe not > in > > the traditional sense, but you can agree you hold some responsibility for > > your actions. All that "legalese" is to prevent us, the developers, from > > shrugging our shoulders and saying "Oops, my bad." LL is covering their > > backs. Regardless of how you phrase it, code it, compile it...without > the > > Second Life service. Your viewer is a brick. > > > > I don't know anyone's tenure here in SL, and I won't ask. But, I > remember > > "real" grid crashes. I remember before there was the grey goo fence and > > people taking down the grid with the OFFICIAL SecondLife viewer. > > > > With Third-Party viewers coming into play and Linden Labs releasing more > and > > more bits of their service to the users, there has to be regulation and > > restrictions in order to protect the business. There is infinitely more > > chance for something to go wrong when you throw third-party viewers in > the > > mix. > > > > Jonathan Irvin > > > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 06:04, Carlo Wood wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 04:06:52PM +, Gareth Nelson wrote: > >> > LL as copyright holder (or joint holder) can change the GPL with extra > >> > restrictions as much as they like - so long as they make it clear. > >> > >> That would be EXTREMELY against the spirit of open source and the use > >> of GPL. It would also make it impossible for any TPV to use their code > >> anymore: TPV's added patches that are pure-GPL. LL does not have > copyright > >> on those patches, so those remain GPL. Therefore it is not possible > >> to link code resulting from those patches with code that is GPL+TPVP, > >> which would be non-GPL because it has extra restrictions. > >> > >> Thus, if this is true (or if they'd do that in the future) then it is > >> EXTERMELY important to understand; because it DOES mean that all TPV's > >> have to stop using any additional code released by LL after 30 April > 2010. > >> > >> -- > >> Carlo Wood > >> ___ > >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > >> privileges > > > > > > > > -- > “Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for > everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” - > Printcrime by Cory Doctrow > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] A note on preserving "NO WARRANTY" for SL TPV developers
Keep in mind, it's not LL that's saying it, it is their lawyers. Like I said, LL is protecting their assets. The best way for them to do that is by hiring good lawyers who can cover all the bases. Jonathan Irvin ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Can we be more productive, please?
Jonathan Irvin Cell: +1-318-426-5253 Email: djfoxys...@gmail.com On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 07:41, JB Hancroft wrote: > Here are my thoughts: > > 1) If you're not an attorney, please do the rest of us a favor by not > acting like one. > The TPVP is a legal document, and while we all have opinions, opinions > that are based on something other than legal understanding and > experience > are more likely to contribute to the body of urban legend, than clarify > and inform. > The law is the law, and whether we like it or not, my understanding is > that > applying rationale to it's interpretation is a fool's errand. > Well said. > > 2) If you've got a 3rd-party viewer, and the TPVP is an issue for you, then > this isn't > the forum in which to resolve it. Take it to Linden Lab via the legal > system, with your legal counsel involved. > I agree. Opensource-dev is about opensource development, not pissing contests on whose opinion is more valid. > > 3) Second Life is a business; it's not "our" social cause. If you don't > like the way > things are, you certainly have a right to bitch and complain and lobby > for change. > But at some point, you're just going to annoy people. Linden Lab > employees > have already noted the "noise-to-signal ratio" they've observed in the > process of > extracting what they consider to be valid input and feedback. > People don't seem to understand that SecondLife is not their business...it is Linden Lab's. While we can provide feedback, it is still LL's decision on whether or not to act on that feedback. People just like to get angry about things and I feel bad for LL having to deal with it's extremely passionate userbase. > > 4) If you want to argue as a hobby, please... enjoy. I'm asking that you > please do it > somewhere else. If you truly believe the situation with the TPVP is > all evil and > bad and not workable, then please "leave". If you don't like the > game, don't play. > We need a forum, not LL Related to just vent so flaming can get lost in a forum not in a mailing list. > > Yes, there are many ways in which what I've written here can be argued and > dissected > and found lacking. Please... don't bother; spend your time in a more > productive way. > > - JB > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Can we, open source devs, still support Snowglobe? was: Can we be more productive, please?
Linden or not, your feedback is appreciated. Jonathan Irvin On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 08:52, JB Hancroft wrote: > Sorry to disappoint you, Aleric... I am not a Linden... just me :) > > I run a software and consulting business in the virtual world/virtual space > market, that > is focused primarily (95% +/-) on SL, at the moment. That number is likely > to decrease > over time, as more and more viable alternatives for my customers come > online. > > - JB > > > On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Aleric Inglewood < > aleric.inglew...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Clearly, no open source developer can accept the possibility to be held >> liable for their help, by supplying patches. >> >> Therefore, we CANNOT agree with the TPV policy unless we understand >> its implications, as explained by a real lawyer, preferably one of Linden >> Lab, >> where it is made clear that developers are not liable for 1) bugs, 2) what >> others >> do with their source code, aka the general idea of the GPL. >> >> Until that has been established, officially, I do NOT agree with the TPV >> policy. >> DISCLAIMER: >> When I got the pop-up that asked me to agree I made a point of it to NOT >> accept it, but spend first an hour to write a patch that made it possible >> for >> me to click on 'cancel' and still login. I then removed that patch again >> (and >> can still log in). Since the TOS/TPVp isn't effective as of 30 April, this >> is >> not an illegal thing to do. If I do not get another pop-up at 30 April >> (and I >> predict I won't), then I will still not have agreed to the TPV policy. >> >> Nevertheless, this is a very undesirable situation of course. So, indeed >> as JB Hancroft says (who sounds like a Linden with a gmail account :p ), >> it's better to leave completely. Leave SL, and obviously also stop helping >> to improve the viewer code. Unfortunately, if it would only be me it will >> have >> no effect and will be useless: I would only harm myself because I like >> using SL and I like working on snowglobe AND we know that Linden Lab >> *really* only wants something that we (and I) CAN agree with. It's just >> that they didn't restrict themselves to the real goal of the TPVp. This >> whole conflict is utterly unnecessary! >> >> Hence, leaving without that that would result in Linden Lab fixing this >> situation and changing the TPVp (or have an official lawyer statement >> that we can understand and agree with) would be too ridiculous for >> words. >> >> However, I *am* prepared to do this if I'm not the only one. >> >> I have not seen the real contributors, Robin, Boroondas, Dzonatas, >> Techwolf, Thickbrick (the *currently* most active ones that I know from >> IRC / my timezone) say much on this topic. But it's your collective >> feeling (and action) that will count here. >> >> Who of the active contributors (speak up if I missed you) are willing to >> make a stand and stop at least developing for snowglobe, unless we >> get a clear, understandable and official explanation what kind of legal >> liability TPV devs are facing? Don't you think we owe that to the other >> open developers that do not work on snowglobe, but on some TPV? >> >> PS LL, please don't tell me this should be posted on this list. >> because it "calls for ... something you don't like. I'd rather use >> this list and discuss it in the open, with everyone involved, >>than approach all the devs off-list. Or set up a new mailinglist >> without >>Lindens on it. Seems really the right thing to do. >> >> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:41 PM, JB Hancroft wrote: >> >>> Here are my thoughts: >>> >>> 1) If you're not an attorney, please do the rest of us a favor by not >>> acting like one. >>> The TPVP is a legal document, and while we all have opinions, >>> opinions >>> that are based on something other than legal understanding and >>> experience >>> are more likely to contribute to the body of urban legend, than >>> clarify and inform. >>> The law is the law, and whether we like it or not, my understanding >>> is that >>> applying rationale to it's interpretation is a fool's errand. >>> >>> 2) If you've got a 3rd-party viewer, and the TPVP is an issue for you, >>> then this isn't >>> the forum in which to resolve it. Take it to Linden Lab via the >>> legal >&g
Re: [opensource-dev] A note on preserving "NO WARRANTY" for SL TPV developers
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 09:00, David M Chess wrote: > > Jonathan Irvin : > > > Keep in mind, it's not LL that's saying it, it is their lawyers. Like I > said, LL is protecting their assets. The best way for them to do that is by > hiring good lawyers who can cover all the bases. > > This is wrong enough that I can't resist responding. :) > Good point. It is LL that is dishing out the policy, but my point is that it's written in Legal language, not that of a geek. So naturally, there is going to be a language barrier there. As far as the wording goes, look at any terms of service, EULA, Warranty, Privacy Policy, etc... it's never really going to be fully understood by people that don't know the lingo. But nevertheless, your input was valid and appreciated. Though your opinions do not reflect the company you work for or Britney Spears, I'm sure that IBM has a great culture so it's reflected in your post. Thank you. > > The TPVP isn't signed "some lawyers who also happen to work for Linden > Lab". It is official LL policy, and published as such. > > If the question is whether people should hold individual Linden employees > personally responsible for it, yeah probably not. But the Lab as a whole > has made the collective decision to make this Lab policy. > > "The lawyers made us say it" might be a good excuse if used by an > individual employee, but it's not something that the Lab as a whole can say, > or that it makes any sense for anyone else to say on their behalf. > > Legal departments, even good ones, have a tendency to give advice > calculated to minimize the probability of harm occurring -in the form of > lawsuits-; that's basically their job. It's up to the business managers > that the legal department advises to weigh the dangers of that sort of harm > against the dangers of other sorts of harm (like a reduced TPV ecosystem, > annoyed or confused or alienated users, etc). > > There are good reasons that the head of the legal department in a company > is seldom the CEO. > > In this particular case, if the user and TPV developer communities can, > rationally and responsibly, make the Lab aware of negative aspects of the > current TPVP wording that might outweigh the reasons the wording was drafted > that way in the first place, I'm sure the wording can be changed, whatever > some particular employee may have send in the interwebs... > > Dave Chess / Dale Innis > > [All statements herein represent my own opinions (at most), and are not > official or unofficial statements of anyone else, including for example and > without restriction my employer, IBM, the United States Government, the > International Red Cross, General Motors, General Electric, the International > Bank of Credit and Commerce, Nabisco, Acme Pet Supplies, Mattel, AIG, the > United States Postal Service, McDonald’s, Linden Research, the Supreme > Council 33° of Scottish Rite Freemasonry, the United Nations Security > Council, Wham-O, and Britney Spears.] > > > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Can you legally agree to incomprehensible conditions
Makes sense if you ask me... why submit patches for SnowGlobe when you already know other Third-Party viewers work with OpenSim...plus I image these guys have enough on their plate as it is getting OpenSim out of alpha. Jonathan Irvin On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 09:21, Gareth Nelson wrote: > That's one possible reason, other possible reasons are simply lack of > willingness to submit the patches > > On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Carlo Wood wrote: > > That is an 'if', what is the actual reason? > > > > On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 02:19:31PM +0100, Gareth Nelson wrote: > >> If these people also work on the viewer, they're banned from > >> contributing patches to opensim > > > > -- > > Carlo Wood > > > > > > -- > “Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for > everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” - > Printcrime by Cory Doctrow > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0 sync with Viewer 2.0
Do we have an effective way of compiling the SnowGlobe viewer in Linux with *.sh script? in debian? Jonathan Irvin ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2.0 sync with Viewer 2.0
Thanks for the help all, I will look into this later >.> Jonathan Irvin ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] TPV - Nope
While I didn't know you personally, it takes a lot for someone to have your opinions, come to your conclusions, and then cancel your accounts. Sad to see another oldbie go. Jonathan Irvin On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 08:51, Nicholaz Beresford wrote: > > Hi All! > > Since the TPV and new TOS seems to be in effect now, I'd like to finally > comment on it too. > > For those of you who don't know me, I'm the person who started the first > thrird party viewer (in fact I made the original Wiki page > http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Alternate_viewers&redirect=no > ) > and as it appears I'm still the person with the most accepted patches to > the viewer (except maybe SnowGlobe commits, I'm not sure if or how they > are counted) and the winner of the year 2007 Linden OpenSource Award. > > I have not made viewers in quite some time and have basically resigned > over gripes about how the Lindens handle open source and the OS > community in general, so I'm not sure if my words still have any weight > (not that any resident's words have any weight with the Lindens, except > Stroker Serpentine's maybe, when they are voiced through a lawyer or > court). So just take my words as coming from the elder statesman armchair. > > However, I still had my account and a couple of alts, but this new > TOS/TPV, now that's it's out of the box about to be in effect soon, puts > the final nail into the coffin. > > I'm not going to try to dissect what's written there or what the > practical legal impact is. Living in Germany with strong customer > protection laws, legal impact in fact is most likely zilch, but what the > TOS and the TPV does, is to show the Linden's view of their relationship > beween themselves and their residents and OS developers. > > While it's not a secret that I have been less than thrilled by their > views and actions in the past, I find the TPV taking it to a new level. > > It is their servers, their assets, their business. But trying to use > their power in a way like this, dictating the terms, making far reaching > demands and lightly brushing off concerns is unacceptable. > > Of course a viewer maker needs comply with the law, no TOS is needed for > that. But making demands like the branding (as if the word "Life" was > their invention) or demanding disclosure like section 8d which goes far > beyond any legal obligations is just way over the top for me. > > I took their sources based on GPL once and at that time alternate > viewers seemed to be welcome and later I even jumped through a few hoops > to meet their new whims (e.g. complying with their trademark policies). > In the recent past, I have still used SL on occasion as a regular user > and now, trying to use SL as a user, I'm finding myself being presented > with new demands because my past viewers are still out there for download. > > Am I going to agree to that? No frigging way. I certainly do not want > to have any relationship with a company who is trying to use their > position of power in a way like that, no matter if it's legally valid or > not. The new TOS/TPV defines who LL thinks they are and who they think > their users are and what kinds of demands and claims LL thinks they can > make or what they think is acceptable and fair. > > I can only recommend to every viewer maker and contributor to have a > look at this broader picture and evaluate if their contributions in time > and efforts are worthwhile. Mine where fun when LL was a different > company, but there I no way I would have made contributions under the > current terms. In fact I won't even log in again under the new terms > and have canceled my accounts today. > > > Nicholaz. > > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] TPV - Nope
I'd just like to point out to *everyone* that I truly admire the spirit you all have towards this project and SL in general. Personally, I've stuck with SL this long just because I've always found it as a medium of experimentation and exploration of different programming ideals and methods. I can truly say I learned a lot of my programming from my experiments in SL. Still to this day I learn new things and experiment with different techniques. Many things I do in SL are "hrm that would be cool" or "I wonder if people could use this if I made it". So, in large part, SL is a hobby for me. Then again, there is a business aspect to what I do, but mainly the business aspect is to offset the Lindens my wife buys from USD and burns up on shopping in SL lol. Jonathan Irvin ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] OpenLSL Q&A Invite
Everyone, I'm a big fan of mailing lists and all of you whom I've spoken with have answered numerous questions of mine. So, I wanted to invite you all to a little experiment of mine. I've long dreamed of a portal just for LSL Scripters that people can go to and get their answer in a more organized way. Email is limited, unfortunately. So, this will be free to join and you can sign up if you want to, or choose not to if you wish. I figure this will be a more organized way to get your questions answered than having to sift through emails for your answer. The URL is http://openlsl.stackexchange.com/ and I would love to have the community help me on this project, if they are willing. Anyway, I won't take up too much more of your time. Thank you for joining and contributing! Best Regards, Jonathan Irvin P.S. I'm opening this to ALL LSL Scripters as well as anyone who wishes to join and contribute including OpenSim, OpenSource-Dev, and the like. P.P.S. Sorry for the spam! This was meant to be an invite. If you don't feel invited, then feel free to disregard this email. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] impending lawsuit?
Lance, hey just FYI man...This is something you want to contact Linden Labs directly about, not post it to this mailing list. That being said, let me share with you a piece of wisdom from being in SL for 5 years. When you've seen it once, you've seen it a million times. People just like to target LL for random reasons, mostly because they got their feelings hurt and want to "take their toys and stomp home to mommy and daddy". Don't worry about that notecard. It's probably just random spam trying to raise awareness for another pointless cause in Second Life and also to cloud your group allocation. If they really wanted to, they'd just add you to a Hippo Group. :) People love making "I'm pissed at Linden Labs so I'm going to make a group in Second Life and use Second Life to flame about it" groups. Also, rest assured, this won't leave Second Life. It's not like your virtual presence can be given a subpoena . Jonathan Irvin ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVP Topics to a different mailing list
To Whom It May Concern: I'm requesting Linden Lab's response to this inquiry due to the recent influx of new topic related...or should I say unrelated to the development of the SnowGlobe viewer. Lately, when I open my email, I get 5-10 different topics and responses daily to the recent changes for the Third Party Viewer policy and I feel that this is not related to SnowGlobe or related development at all. To "clear the pipes", can we please move these discussions to a different forum or list so valid OpenSource development questions are not lost in the flames, complaints, and discussions related to this specific topic? I do not feel it is valid in this forum to talk about which Third-Party Viewers in the directory were already impersonated or which part of the third party viewer policy they do not like. Linden Labs, if you can please isolate this to another forum, I bet those who are truly interested in the opensource development of the Second Life viewer would be more in tuned to staying here rather than wake up to read yet another unproductive "I hate LL and the TPVP lets get together and share our misery post". Respectfully & Best Regards, Jonathan Irvin SL Resident of 5 Years. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Quiet amendments of TPV (again)
"4. You assume all risks, expenses, and defects of any Third-Party Viewers that you use. Linden Lab shall not be responsible or liable for any Third-Party Viewers." That sure sounds like what you all have been wanting. The risk is on the user, not so much the developer. Jonathan Irvin Cell: +1-318-426-5253 Email: djfoxys...@gmail.com On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:41, Robert Martin wrote: > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Joe Linden wrote: > > Boy, > > > > There was nothing quiet, or "in the background" about it, believe me. > This > > update is the topic of conversation at the noon PDT brown bag I'm hosting > > today. The changes were pushed live ahead of the meeting, so there would > be > > no question they are incorporated in to the TPV and TOS, both of which > are > > effective on 4/30. > > > > I'll see those of you still interested in the subject at noon here: > > > http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services/229/230/29 > > > > -- joe > > > im going to try and make this meeting myself but could somebody please > make sure that all of the information is either done or relayed in > text > (and could somebody please get all of the voice stuff sorted before > the meeting so we don't spend half the meeting tripping over the > audio) > -- > Robert L Martin > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] OpenLSL Invitation
Hey Guys, I just wanted to, again, extend the invitation to http://openlsl.stackexchange.com/. This is a Q&A site for all LSL developers new and old, beginner and experienced to ask questions and answer them regarding LSL scripting techniques, technologies, and the like. Membership is free and will remain so indefinitely. I welcome all people who are experienced LSL developers or people just getting started. The main thing we need is participation at this point. The site is in bootstrap mode meaning that new users will have permissions they normally would not in a production site so it gives you more freedom to help build up the site. Here's the link to check the status of our progress. http://openlsl.stackexchange.com/bootstrap I'd also like any of the OpenSource Dev folks to post your questions on the OpenLSL site as well. I may end up moving towards a general Second Life Q&A site, but hitting up the LSL folks for now. Jonathan Irvin P.S. I'm not meaning to spam. Being a long-time user of SL and a LSL dev. I've felt this format of website is needed for all us geeks. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV directory ?
Just an idea I think would be cool is if LL made a tool (perhaps a script) that users could click on if they suspected their viewer to be bad or something and it would cause the viewer to send the info to LL for investigation. Perhaps also LL can have hashes of the viewer source code. Should it not match or something, it won't allow them to connect or it would be reported, etc. Jonathan Irvin ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
