Re: [opensource-dev] left and right arrows change to strafing in mouselook

[Stickman]

Why not just skip a half-way solution and implement full key mapping?

Maybe I wanna use ijkl instead of wasd. What if I want my fly button
to be backspace? Or my build button to be e instead of b?

While we're at it, I'd love the ability to llTakeControls() for any
key on the keyboard, including knowing what their bound keys are, but
that's a different beast.

I'm sure there's Jiras up for both of these somewhere.

This is kinda the remapping controls thing, mostly about the
double-tap run craze:
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6250

Full keyboard llTakeControls() (one of a few)
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5244

-Stickman

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 11:08 PM, SuezanneC Baskerville
 wrote:
> A thread about WASD keys caused me to think of something that has always
> bugged me about SL, the way the left and right arrow keys change from
> rotating to strafing when you enter mouselook.   This not being a combat
> game, there doesn't seem much point to this.  Because of this, I hardly ever
> use mouselook.  I suspect this seems senseless and is annoying to many other
> non-gamers.
>
> Perhaps making this optional would be appropriate for Snowglobe.
>
> --
> for   v i r t u a l   w o r l d s   try these sites:
> h i p i h i . c o m  - s  e c o n d l i f e . c o m - m e t a p l a c e . c
> o m
> -- http://www.google.com/profiles/s u e z a n n e --
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] left and right arrows change to strafing in mouselook

[Jacek Antonelli]

On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 2:11 AM, Stickman  wrote:
> Why not just skip a half-way solution and implement full key mapping?

Not to pick on you personally, Stickman, but it peeves me when
somebody suggests that someone else should "just" do something that's
thousands and thousands of times more difficult than the original
proposal. It's not a very helpful attitude to take, and can be really
demotivating to potential contributors. And not just the one with the
original proposal, but also other people who may have been thinking
about contributing but were put off by the unfriendly atmosphere.

Anyway, turning to the idea being proposed...

I can see how an option like that would benefit users who like to use
a first-person view, but don't want to (or can't) use the mouse to
turn. For example, I can picture someone walking through an art
gallery with one hand on the keyboard, a mug of coffee in the other
hand. :-D

My only concern would be "option bloat". The Preferences window is
already pretty crowded and complex, so there's a trade-off to adding
anything more there. If an option is only somewhat useful, or is
useful only to a relatively small percent of users, then it might be
better to put it in the Advanced menu, for example.

I don't use mouselook very often, so I wouldn't be a good person to
weigh the benefit of this particular proposed option versus the added
complexity. But I will point out that the "Input & Camera" preference
panel (in the SL 1.x UI) is not overly crowded, so the cost of putting
a new option there would not be very high. For the SL 2.0 UI, it could
potentially be squeezed in to the "Setup" preference panel, although
it would be a tighter fit.

So, to summarize: I think it's a good idea and you (or someone) should
go for it. :-)

- Jacek
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Re: [opensource-dev] left and right arrows change to strafing in mouselook

[Tayra Dagostino]

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:11:47 -0700
Stickman  wrote:

> Why not just skip a half-way solution and implement full key mapping?

this solve a lot of trouble too for linux user (crtl+alt+F1) and non
eng keyboard user (take snapshot shortcut), may be a nice proposal :)
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Re: [opensource-dev] left and right arrows change to strafing in mouselook

[Stickman]

> Not to pick on you personally, Stickman, but it peeves me when
> somebody suggests that someone else should "just" do something that's
> thousands and thousands of times more difficult than the original
> proposal. It's not a very helpful attitude to take, and can be really
> demotivating to potential contributors. And not just the one with the
> original proposal, but also other people who may have been thinking
> about contributing but were put off by the unfriendly atmosphere.

It was not my intention to discourage. Reading it again, it does come
across a bit condescending. I apologize, Suezanne, and acknowledge the
merit of your idea, without the daunting extensions I put on it.

Stickman
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Re: [opensource-dev] left and right arrows change to strafing in mouselook

[Carlo Wood]

On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 01:08:52AM -0500, SuezanneC Baskerville wrote:
> A thread about WASD keys caused me to think of something that has always 
> bugged
> me about SL, the way the left and right arrow keys change from rotating to
> strafing when you enter mouselook.   This not being a combat game, there
> doesn't seem much point to this.  Because of this, I hardly ever use 
> mouselook.
>   I suspect this seems senseless and is annoying to many other non-gamers. 
> 
> Perhaps making this optional would be appropriate for Snowglobe.

+1

Exactly the same for me: once in mouse look I lose all control over
my avatar because of this, so I never use it except when I'm sitting
or just standing still, to look around.

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy: commencement date

[Boy Lane]

We are approacing one month after the initial 3rd party viewer policy has 
been announced. Nobody from Linden Lab has answered the question I've raised 
2 weeks ago. So let me repeat it one more time:

What is the status of the Third Party Viewer Policy? Do we have to assume 
that the current version is binding and/or when will an updated version be 
available?

Thanks for your kind attention. Hopefully...


- Original Message - 
From: "Boy Lane" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 10:11 PM
Subject: Third party viewer policy: commencement date


> It has been 14 days since the initial draft of the 3PVP was published and 
> we were told it will be reworked to include comments, concerns and 
> suggestions. Two weeks have passed since and besides a FAQ that also says 
> the policy is being worked on there have been no news.
>
> As this is a mission critical question for everybody involved in client 
> development:
> What is the status of the Third Party Viewer Policy? Do we have to assume 
> that the current version is binding and/or when will an updated version be 
> available?
>
> Thanks! 


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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy: commencement date

[Joe Linden]

The updated version of the Third Party Viewer Policy was posted here about a
week ago:
http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php

As stated in the
FAQ,
the policy will be in full force and effect on April 30, 2010.

-- Joe

On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 7:20 AM, Boy Lane  wrote:

> We are approacing one month after the initial 3rd party viewer policy has
> been announced. Nobody from Linden Lab has answered the question I've
> raised
> 2 weeks ago. So let me repeat it one more time:
>
> What is the status of the Third Party Viewer Policy? Do we have to assume
> that the current version is binding and/or when will an updated version be
> available?
>
> Thanks for your kind attention. Hopefully...
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Boy Lane" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 10:11 PM
> Subject: Third party viewer policy: commencement date
>
>
> > It has been 14 days since the initial draft of the 3PVP was published and
> > we were told it will be reworked to include comments, concerns and
> > suggestions. Two weeks have passed since and besides a FAQ that also says
> > the policy is being worked on there have been no news.
> >
> > As this is a mission critical question for everybody involved in client
> > development:
> > What is the status of the Third Party Viewer Policy? Do we have to assume
> > that the current version is binding and/or when will an updated version
> be
> > available?
> >
> > Thanks!
>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy: commencement date

[Jesse Barnett]

GRRR!

So you left in the requirements that you may publish the real life name and
address of the developers in the 3rd party Viewer Directory?

This is absolutely nuts and extremely dangerous and whoever thought it was a
good idea needs to publish thier own name and address in reply here. Would
you like to start Joe? Or what about just publishing the address of the
lawyer/lawyers who thought this was a good idea?

I have been using the internet since the time of 2400 modems and have seen
enough incidents. There is no way in hell I would endanger the life of my
daughter by ever having my address listed.

major fail,
Jesse Barnett
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy: commencement date

[Jesse Barnett]

On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Timothy Horrigan
wrote:

>  Jesse: How does it endanger your daughter's life to have your business
> address listed?  You can always rent a PO Box for a few bucks a month if you
> feel sensitive about divulging your street address, which many
> businesspeople choose to do.
>
> I do have a business associate whose real anme & address I do not know, but
> I pay him a nominal amount.  I pay him about $100/year to rent space and to
> have him serve as a DJ.  But I would never enter into a real business
> arrangement without knowing the names and addresses of a responsible party.
> Uner US tax law it is in fact ILLEGAL to exchange major amounts of money
> without knowing the other party's identity.
>
> --Tammy Nowotny 9and no I will not reveal my RL identity on this list.)
>
> Straw argument, as your last sentence clearly demonstrates.

But for an update, I accidentally responded directly to Joe at first and
then he responded directly to me. The 3rd party viewer directory application
was reverted by mistake somehow and still shows that LL may publish your
contact info.. The Third Party Viewer Policy IS correct and is what will go
into effect. You will still have to share real life contact info with Linden
Labs but you can opt out of sharing that information with the entire world.

(thanks for clearing that up Joe!)
Jesse Barnett
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy: commencement date

[Martin Spernau]

Just as a note here: In Germany for example even if you 'just' publish  
a simple webpage/blog, you are required (by law) to state your real  
life name and address (Impressum)
This may not be a requirement when you publish content outside of  
Germany (it is in many other countries too as I think)

-Martin


Am 20.03.2010 um 19:14 schrieb Jesse Barnett:




On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Timothy Horrigan > wrote:
Jesse: How does it endanger your daughter's life to have your  
business address listed?  You can always rent a PO Box for a few  
bucks a month if you feel sensitive about divulging your street  
address, which many businesspeople choose to do.


I do have a business associate whose real anme & address I do not  
know, but I pay him a nominal amount.  I pay him about $100/year to  
rent space and to have him serve as a DJ.  But I would never enter  
into a real business arrangement without knowing the names and  
addresses of a responsible party.  Uner US tax law it is in fact  
ILLEGAL to exchange major amounts of money without knowing the other  
party's identity.


--Tammy Nowotny 9and no I will not reveal my RL identity on this  
list.)


Straw argument, as your last sentence clearly demonstrates.

But for an update, I accidentally responded directly to Joe at first  
and then he responded directly to me. The 3rd party viewer directory  
application was reverted by mistake somehow and still shows that LL  
may publish your contact info.. The Third Party Viewer Policy IS  
correct and is what will go into effect. You will still have to  
share real life contact info with Linden Labs but you can opt out of  
sharing that information with the entire world.


(thanks for clearing that up Joe!)
Jesse Barnett
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privileges


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Re: [opensource-dev] left and right arrows change to strafing in mouselook

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Regarding "option bloat", why not simply hide the extra stuff behind a
button or a checkbox?

On 20/3/2010 05:53, Jacek Antonelli wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 2:11 AM, Stickman  wrote:
>> Why not just skip a half-way solution and implement full key mapping?
> 
> Not to pick on you personally, Stickman, but it peeves me when
> somebody suggests that someone else should "just" do something that's
> thousands and thousands of times more difficult than the original
> proposal. It's not a very helpful attitude to take, and can be really
> demotivating to potential contributors. And not just the one with the
> original proposal, but also other people who may have been thinking
> about contributing but were put off by the unfriendly atmosphere.
> 
> Anyway, turning to the idea being proposed...
> 
> I can see how an option like that would benefit users who like to use
> a first-person view, but don't want to (or can't) use the mouse to
> turn. For example, I can picture someone walking through an art
> gallery with one hand on the keyboard, a mug of coffee in the other
> hand. :-D
> 
> My only concern would be "option bloat". The Preferences window is
> already pretty crowded and complex, so there's a trade-off to adding
> anything more there. If an option is only somewhat useful, or is
> useful only to a relatively small percent of users, then it might be
> better to put it in the Advanced menu, for example.
> 
> I don't use mouselook very often, so I wouldn't be a good person to
> weigh the benefit of this particular proposed option versus the added
> complexity. But I will point out that the "Input & Camera" preference
> panel (in the SL 1.x UI) is not overly crowded, so the cost of putting
> a new option there would not be very high. For the SL 2.0 UI, it could
> potentially be squeezed in to the "Setup" preference panel, although
> it would be a tighter fit.
> 
> So, to summarize: I think it's a good idea and you (or someone) should
> go for it. :-)
> 
> - Jacek
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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Re: [opensource-dev] left and right arrows change to strafing in mouselook

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Can't you just do it the same way you can side-step while in third
person mode?

On 20/3/2010 09:06, Carlo Wood wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 01:08:52AM -0500, SuezanneC Baskerville wrote:
>> A thread about WASD keys caused me to think of something that has always 
>> bugged
>> me about SL, the way the left and right arrow keys change from rotating to
>> strafing when you enter mouselook.   This not being a combat game, there
>> doesn't seem much point to this.  Because of this, I hardly ever use 
>> mouselook.
>>   I suspect this seems senseless and is annoying to many other non-gamers. 
>>
>> Perhaps making this optional would be appropriate for Snowglobe.
> 
> +1
> 
> Exactly the same for me: once in mouse look I lose all control over
> my avatar because of this, so I never use it except when I'm sitting
> or just standing still, to look around.
> 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAkulMzEACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmWzhwCgjZoMPoWYlXsn2BX7B8oZr9Bc
p5QAn3313HGvIJ48TWdQ34cma68Ue9Iz
=SbpO
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy: commencement date

[Patrick N.]

I tend to agree with Jesse, just list their avatar name and LL know already all 
their details anyways.. I have never seen so far any open source project where 
they had a requirement about declining their real identity with their address 
as well.. 

Its not like they are complete unknown they are your customer already 



From: Jesse Barnett 
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 1:30 PM
To: Joe Linden 
Cc: Boy Lane ; opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com 
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy: commencement date


GRRR!

So you left in the requirements that you may publish the real life name and 
address of the developers in the 3rd party Viewer Directory?

This is absolutely nuts and extremely dangerous and whoever thought it was a 
good idea needs to publish thier own name and address in reply here. Would you 
like to start Joe? Or what about just publishing the address of the 
lawyer/lawyers who thought this was a good idea?

I have been using the internet since the time of 2400 modems and have seen 
enough incidents. There is no way in hell I would endanger the life of my 
daughter by ever having my address listed.

major fail,
Jesse Barnett








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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy: commencement date

[Marine Kelley]

Well it seems that we can choose not to publish our RL identity to the open.
I too wonder why LL can't link our RL data with our avatars themselves,
since most (if not all) of us are Premium members or have been in the past.
There is certainly a very good internal reason that they cannot disclose,
and it's ok.

What scares me is that the FAQ (and the TPV itself) states that LL "may"
publish these data in the future. They don't say whether "if", or rather
"when" they choose to do so, people who have given their RL data to have
their work published on the viewer directory will be given the choice to
opt-out or not. They can opt-out now, they should be certain they will still
be able to opt-out at any time, prior to pushing the switch. KirstenLee and
Legolas have had their RL info disclosed for a few days already. Maybe they
didn't care, but fact is that they were published then, and are hidden now.
Something must have happened. And if this was a mistake, I would dare to say
it was a very serious one, serious enough to actually sue LL for disclosing
private information without prior consent.

But I digress. The viewer directory is only informative, and is in no way a
certification for the published viewers. A malicious viewer could very well
be published there for a few days or months before the author turns
something on that lays havoc on the grid or on the user data. Like those
virii that activate themselves only on a certain date. There is still no way
of being certain that what you download is safe, viewer directory or not.
That's why I think risking our RL identities on something that holds so
little value is not worth it.



On 20 March 2010 22:14, Patrick N.  wrote:

>  I tend to agree with Jesse, just list their avatar name and LL know
> already all their details anyways.. I have never seen so far any open source
> project where they had a requirement about declining their real identity
> with their address as well..
>
> Its not like they are complete unknown they are your customer already 
>
>
>  *From:* Jesse Barnett 
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 20, 2010 1:30 PM
> *To:* Joe Linden 
> *Cc:* Boy Lane  ; opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
> *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy: commencement
> date
>
> GRRR!
>
> So you left in the requirements that you may publish the real life name and
> address of the developers in the 3rd party Viewer Directory?
>
> This is absolutely nuts and extremely dangerous and whoever thought it was
> a good idea needs to publish thier own name and address in reply here. Would
> you like to start Joe? Or what about just publishing the address of the
> lawyer/lawyers who thought this was a good idea?
>
> I have been using the internet since the time of 2400 modems and have seen
> enough incidents. There is no way in hell I would endanger the life of my
> daughter by ever having my address listed.
>
> major fail,
> Jesse Barnett
>
>
>  --
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] left and right arrows change to strafing in mouselook

[Nexii Malthus]

Yeah, holding shift to move back to the rotating control seems like an
intuitive idea to me and was surprised moons ago when it wasn't possible.

- Nexii

On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Tigro Spottystripes <
tigrospottystri...@gmail.com> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Can't you just do it the same way you can side-step while in third
> person mode?
>
> On 20/3/2010 09:06, Carlo Wood wrote:
> > On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 01:08:52AM -0500, SuezanneC Baskerville wrote:
> >> A thread about WASD keys caused me to think of something that has always
> bugged
> >> me about SL, the way the left and right arrow keys change from rotating
> to
> >> strafing when you enter mouselook.   This not being a combat game, there
> >> doesn't seem much point to this.  Because of this, I hardly ever use
> mouselook.
> >>   I suspect this seems senseless and is annoying to many other
> non-gamers.
> >>
> >> Perhaps making this optional would be appropriate for Snowglobe.
> >
> > +1
> >
> > Exactly the same for me: once in mouse look I lose all control over
> > my avatar because of this, so I never use it except when I'm sitting
> > or just standing still, to look around.
> >
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkulMzEACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmWzhwCgjZoMPoWYlXsn2BX7B8oZr9Bc
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> =SbpO
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy: commencement date

[Carlo Wood]

On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 09:21:25AM -0700, Joe Linden wrote:
> The updated version of the Third Party Viewer Policy was posted here about a
> week ago:
> http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php

That says that if a developer changes the code and distributes it,
you reserve the right to pursue any and all legal and equitable remedies:

3 a. If you are a [...] Developer of Third-Party Viewers, you must not:
  [...] design Third-Party Viewers to [...]

If we believe you are or have been associated with activities that violate
this paragraph, either within or outside of Second Life, we may take any
enforcement action we deem appropriate [...] and pursuit of all legal and
equitable remedies.

7 d. You (Developer of Third-Party Viewers) assume all risks, expenses, and
 defects of any Third-Party Viewers that you [use,] develop, or(!) 
distribute.

This is not compatible with the GPL.
Therefore, anyone who contributed to the GPL-ed code has a case
if they want to retract their contribution.

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] left and right arrows change to strafing in mouselook

[Glen Canaday]

It seems to me that the 2.0 prefs box can add a lot of extra tabs - one 
page might get full, but there looks to be room for twice as many tabs. 
One separate for input and one for camera, for example.

--GC

> I don't use mouselook very often, so I wouldn't be a good person to
> weigh the benefit of this particular proposed option versus the added
> complexity. But I will point out that the "Input&  Camera" preference
> panel (in the SL 1.x UI) is not overly crowded, so the cost of putting
> a new option there would not be very high. For the SL 2.0 UI, it could
> potentially be squeezed in to the "Setup" preference panel, although
> it would be a tighter fit.
>
> So, to summarize: I think it's a good idea and you (or someone) should
> go for it. :-)
>
> - Jacek
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Re: [opensource-dev] Proposal: Howto add a new feature to snowglobe.

[Morgaine]

Dzonatas, first of all, it's important to be clear that VWRAP has not yet
written up anything concerning handling of objects or avatar meshes, so this
post at most reflects some of the informal discussions that we've been
having on the topic.  Bear that in mind here.

VWRAP is intended to be an interop protocol for virtual worlds.   Defining
the worlds or the viewers themselves is entirely outside of the scope of the
VWRAP working group.  Although the following is somewhat self-referential,
it is perfectly correct to say that the only requirement that VWRAP will
place on virtual worlds or on viewers is to be VWRAP-compatible, in other
words to be able to speak the protocol.  And what's more, the protocol is
intended to be extensible so that it can cope with worlds and viewers
evolving as the VW scene matures.

This addresses your question rather indirectly.  Neither object meshes nor
avatar meshes are likely to be defined in VWRAP, because that would hardwire
them in.  Instead, VWRAP decouples as much as possible into *services*, and
addresses how those services can be accessed.  All digital objects are
likely to be stored in services, and this includes all mesh types of
course.  As a result, it is very likely that VWRAP will be transparent in
respect of the avatar (and object) meshes it can handle --- it will be a
matter for the viewer to be able to render a particular world's avatar mesh
if a world supplies it.

Note that we cannot know at this time whether the evolving metaverse will
standardize on particular forms of avatar, and of course we would not wish
to constrain users of the protocol to the current low quality avatars
either.  That creates a very strong requirement for avatar agnosticism.
It's worth highlighting again that by focusing on *services* we can avoid
prescribing anything in this area, while being able to transport to the
viewer whatever the services choose to offer.


Morgaine.





=

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Dzonatas Sol  wrote:

> Morgaine wrote:
>
>> As an example, it is quite easy to imagine VWRAP providing transport for
>> Collada mesh objects that work in Opensim long before they do in SL.
>>
> Can we clarify this a little about the mesh. Is this the mesh in regards to
> the avatar or the mesh of objects in the environment itself.
>
> I still have it on the chalkboard that avatars might actually use quite
> drastically different models within a scene. That would assume the simulator
> that encapsulates the scene doesn't dictate the limits of the model of the
> avatars in the scene.
>
> A bit of freedom of expression for those that can handle the details.
>
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