Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1
On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 12:24:31PM -0500, Derek Martin wrote: > The world has become complicated, and without specialization it does > not work, period. That's why you don't build your own home, > grow/raise/kill your own food ... That sounds like corporate propaganda to me - i.e. they don't want you to. But believe me it is possible and doable. Just a quick example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Cottage Don't let the food¹ companies pull the wool over your ears. ¹ I use the term 'food' very loosely here. It's *so* easy to grow your own vegetables. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X
Re: display text when a main contains HTML and text
* Ed Blackman on Thursday, September 18, 2014 at 22:17:45 -0400 > On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 12:52:25PM +0200, Nathan Schwarz wrote: >> But alternative_order works fine, no more html-mail or lynx-dumps :) > > However, note that at least some multipart/alternative emails come > with an empty or trivial text/plain part. I don't know why someone > would go to the trouble of writing a tool that would send multipart > and then not put anything in the text/plain, but it does happen. If > you use alternative_order to prefer plain text (as I do), you'll need > to recognize that sometimes you will need to manually select the HTML > part read the email. I use this macro combo for toggling alternative_order: # toggle alternative_order macro pager ,@aot= "\ unalternative_order *; \ alternative_order text/enriched text/plain text/html text application/postscript image/*; \ macro pager A ,@aoh= 'prefer html over text'\ " # macro pager ,@aoh= "\ unalternative_order *; \ alternative_order text/enriched text/html text/plain text application/postscript image/*; \ macro pager A ,@aot= 'prefer text over html'\ " # macro pager A ,@aoh= "prefer html over text" -- theatre - books - texts - movies Black Trash Productions at home: http://www.blacktrash.org Black Trash Productions on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/blacktrashproductions
Re: How is mutt with multi-mega-byte mboxes?
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 04:19:12PM -0400, Mark Filipak wrote: > How is mutt with multi-mega-byte mboxes? Have you found that having tens > of thousands of messages in a single box is dangerous? No, just really slow! -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X
Re: How is mutt with multi-mega-byte mboxes?
* On 19 Sep 2014, Chris Bannister wrote: > On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 04:19:12PM -0400, Mark Filipak wrote: > > How is mutt with multi-mega-byte mboxes? Have you found that having tens > > of thousands of messages in a single box is dangerous? > > No, just really slow! I don't find it slow at all, once the mailbox is loaded. Is that what you mean or is there an ongoing performance problem? -- David Champion • d...@bikeshed.us
Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 07:09:22PM +1200, Chris Bannister wrote: > It's *so* easy to grow your own vegetables. No one said it was hard... most of the things you pay someone else to do aren't (though some definitely are). The complexity comes from the sheer number of things, which if you had to do each one yourself, from scratch, and including learning how to do them, would be overwhelming. There simply isn't enough time in the day for you to do it all yourself. Even things that are easy to do take time to learn how. Again, that's unless you choose to live an extremely simple life, and not participate in modern society. Which you can do... most people just wouldn't ever chose that. -- Derek D. Martinhttp://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0xDFBEAD02 -=-=-=-=- This message is posted from an invalid address. Replying to it will result in undeliverable mail due to spam prevention. Sorry for the inconvenience. pgpy7Eegdu0QE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 11:05:50AM -0500, Derek Martin wrote: > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 07:09:22PM +1200, Chris Bannister wrote: > > It's *so* easy to grow your own vegetables. > > No one said it was hard... most of the things you pay someone else to > do aren't (though some definitely are). Well, if you can afford your own Gardener all the better. > The complexity comes from the > sheer number of things, which if you had to do each one yourself, from > scratch, and including learning how to do them, would be overwhelming. > There simply isn't enough time in the day for you to do it all > yourself. Even things that are easy to do take time to learn how. Some people actually do it as a hobby, and you make it sound so much harder than it really is. The real problem is having the land, but a surprising amount can still be grown in window boxes or 'grow boxes'. > Again, that's unless you choose to live an extremely simple life, and > not participate in modern society. Which you can do... most people > just wouldn't ever chose that. I would consider ordering take aways/fast food the 'simple' life. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X
Re: How is mutt with multi-mega-byte mboxes?
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:23:03AM -0500, David Champion wrote: > * On 19 Sep 2014, Chris Bannister wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 04:19:12PM -0400, Mark Filipak wrote: > > > How is mutt with multi-mega-byte mboxes? Have you found that having tens > > > of thousands of messages in a single box is dangerous? > > > > No, just really slow! > > I don't find it slow at all, once the mailbox is loaded. Is that what > you mean or is there an ongoing performance problem? Yes, takes a while to load 4k messages on this old laptop, but I don't let it get to me. :) No, there is no 'apparent' ongoing performance problem. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X
Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1
* On 17 Sep 2014, Ed Blackman wrote: > > I'm not one of the developers of Mutt, nor am I some representative of all > of Mutt's users. However, it seems to me that the devs and at least most of > the users like things as they are, such that you need to know a good bit > about email to use Mutt. Otherwise they would be developing changes[1] or > switching to another email client. > > That being the case, I don't know that passionate rants on the mailing list > are going to do much good. The people on this list have self-selected to be > users of a email tool that requires you to know a bit about email internals > to use it, and have further self-selected to join a list to converse and > swap tips about that editor with other like-minded people. Making things > easier for non-geeks, when non-geeks are not likely to want to use mutt for > many other reasons other than difficulties writing flowed or HTML text, > doesn't seem to be a priority. We're not closed to further development on mutt, but it takes times that for the most part we don't have. Mutt probably is not feature-complete, but it's close, and we're evidently well into the long tail of diminishing returns. Personally, mutt annoys me in very few ways, and I'm pretty tolerant of those that remain. Addressing these relatively minor issues rarely claims my time. If it tempts yours, patches are welcome. I know what the response to that will be: "but the maintainers never respond to patches!" You're right. What's more difficult than getting patches is finding consensus on the right reaction when the problem being addressed is one that we (maintainers) don't experience personally. I don't want to transmogrify this thread into another "how do we fix mutt development" thread -- I don't know that everyone of note is paying attention. But I do want to make the comment that for me, it's not that I like things as they are so much as that I don't know what the right solution to this problem is, and I'm afraid I don't have time right now for reading the RFC, trying to sketch it out, and evaluating the various patches' solutions, etc. Perhaps I'm a bad maintainer, I'll accept that, but there it is. So what's really useful to maintainers (I think) is some solid discussion of the solutions proposed, and a community recommendation. I haven't read this thread through completely because it's a bit off course, but I've picked up on two implemented solutions on this topic: a VVV patch and a Gary Johnson patch. Can someone discuss how they differ, whether they conflict, whether either causes problems, whether they can or should be merged, etc? Do they solve the problem raised in this thread, work around it, are they tangential? We need this kind of help to move ahead on something. -- David Champion • d...@bikeshed.us pgp8SU503HXzn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 11:57:34AM -0500, David Champion wrote: > I haven't read this thread through completely because it's a bit off > course, but I've picked up on two implemented solutions on this topic: > a VVV patch and a Gary Johnson patch. Can someone discuss how they > differ, whether they conflict, whether either causes problems, whether > they can or should be merged, etc? I don't think GJ's patch will apply against current dev. The behavior was pretty simple, controlled with a single variable. I had a version that could apply up to maybe 1.5.12 or a bit later. His description from the man page entry: "stuff_all_quoted" When set, mutt will space-stuff all non-empty quoted lines in displayed and generated text/plain; format=flowed attachments, as allowed by RFC 2646. This makes the quoting of format=flowed text easier to read and more consistent with the quoting style traditionally used for format=fixed text. When unset, mutt will space-stuff quoted lines only as required by RFC 2646. AFAICT, the patch used in FreeBSD (vvv one) is pretty similar. There are two configurable variables: quote_empty Type: boolean Default: yes Controls whether or not empty lines will be quoted using "indent_string". quote_quoted Type: boolean Default: no Controls how quoted lines will be quoted. If set, one quote character will be added to the end of existing prefix. Other- wise, quoted lines will be prepended by "indent_string". I'm not sure if the behavior in terms of adding spaces to lines other than the most recent quote level is different, but overall, I think they behave in roughly the same way, other than the additional $quote_empty param, which I don't think GJ's patch messed with at all (the docs specifically only mention "non-empty" quoted lines) One other thing that might make more sense than having it be a separate configuration option is having the behavior simply vary depending on whether $text_flowed is set, similar to how $indent_string is ignored if $text_flowed is set. IMHO, that would give the behavior that most people expect with the least amount of fuss / tweaking. Agree with a lot of what you said in your post; I think at some point, "we" need to just get any serious bugs squashed and get a 1.6 out... at this point, most software vendors are shipping 1.5.x anyway. w
Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1
ps - These are the two versions of the gj one I have - one might have
been tweaked by me to apply to a later version. It's pretty small; I
imagine someone who knows the mutt code-base could pretty easily figure
out how to make it apply to current.
w
--- PATCHES.orig2003-04-15 06:18:34.0 -0700
+++ PATCHES 2003-12-31 00:13:58.0 -0800
@@ -1,0 +1 @@
+patch-1.5.5.1.gj.stuff_all_quoted.2
--- handler.c.orig 2003-11-05 01:41:31.0 -0800
+++ handler.c 2004-02-23 03:21:10.0 -0800
@@ -919,9 +919,6 @@
static void flowed_stuff (STATE *s, char *cont, int level)
{
- if (!option (OPTTEXTFLOWED) && !(s->flags & M_DISPLAY))
-return;
-
if (s->flags & M_DISPLAY)
{
/*
@@ -931,7 +928,15 @@
*/
if (*cont && !level && !mutt_strcmp (Pager, "builtin") &&
flowed_maybe_quoted (cont))
state_puts ("\033[0m",s);
+
+if (*cont && level && option (OPTSTUFFALLQUOTED))
+ state_putc (' ', s);
}
+ else if (option (OPTSTUFFALLQUOTED) && *cont &&
+ ((s->prefix && s->prefix[strlen(s->prefix) - 1] == ' ') ? level - 1
: level))
+state_putc (' ', s);
+ else if (!option (OPTTEXTFLOWED))
+return;
else if ((!(s->flags & M_PRINTING)) &&
((*cont == ' ') || (*cont == '>') || (!level && !mutt_strncmp (cont,
"From ", 5
state_putc (' ', s);
--- init.h.orig 2003-11-05 01:41:32.0 -0800
+++ init.h 2004-01-15 23:51:31.0 -0800
@@ -2492,6 +2492,16 @@
** personal mailbox where you might have several unrelated messages with
** the subject ``hi'' which will get grouped together.
*/
+ { "stuff_all_quoted", DT_BOOL, R_NONE, OPTSTUFFALLQUOTED, 0 },
+ /*
+ ** .pp
+ ** When set, mutt will space-stuff all non-empty quoted lines in
+ ** displayed and generated text/plain; format=flowed attachments, as
+ ** allowed by RFC 2646. This makes the quoting of format=flowed text
+ ** easier to read and more consistent with the quoting style
+ ** traditionally used for format=fixed text. When unset, mutt will
+ ** space-stuff quoted lines only as required by RFC 2646.
+ */
{ "suspend", DT_BOOL, R_NONE, OPTSUSPEND, 1 },
/*
** .pp
--- mutt.h.orig 2003-11-05 01:41:32.0 -0800
+++ mutt.h 2003-12-30 16:56:43.0 -0800
@@ -406,6 +406,7 @@
OPTSTATUSONTOP,
OPTSTRICTTHREADS,
OPTSUSPEND,
+ OPTSTUFFALLQUOTED,
OPTTEXTFLOWED,
OPTTHOROUGHSRC,
OPTTHREADRECEIVED,
diff -u mutt-1.5.12/PATCHES mutt-1.5.12.patched/PATCHES
--- mutt-1.5.12/PATCHES 2006-07-14 11:12:47.0 -0700
+++ mutt-1.5.12.patched/PATCHES 2006-08-07 23:20:25.0 -0700
@@ -0,0 +1 @@
+patch-1.5.5.1.gj.stuff_all_quoted.2
Common subdirectories: mutt-1.5.12/contrib and mutt-1.5.12.patched/contrib
Common subdirectories: mutt-1.5.12/doc and mutt-1.5.12.patched/doc
diff -u mutt-1.5.12/handler.c mutt-1.5.12.patched/handler.c
--- mutt-1.5.12/handler.c 2005-12-20 01:36:02.0 -0800
+++ mutt-1.5.12.patched/handler.c 2006-08-07 23:20:25.0 -0700
@@ -924,9 +924,6 @@
static void flowed_stuff (STATE *s, char *cont, int level)
{
- if (!option (OPTTEXTFLOWED) && !(s->flags & M_DISPLAY))
-return;
-
if (s->flags & M_DISPLAY)
{
/*
@@ -936,7 +933,15 @@
*/
if (*cont && !level && !mutt_strcmp (Pager, "builtin") &&
flowed_maybe_quoted (cont))
state_puts ("\033[0m",s);
+
+if (*cont && level && option (OPTSTUFFALLQUOTED))
+ state_putc (' ', s);
}
+ else if (option (OPTSTUFFALLQUOTED) && *cont &&
+ ((s->prefix && s->prefix[strlen(s->prefix) - 1] == ' ') ? level - 1
: level))
+state_putc (' ', s);
+ else if (!option (OPTTEXTFLOWED))
+return;
else if ((!(s->flags & M_PRINTING)) &&
((*cont == ' ') || (*cont == '>') || (!level && !mutt_strncmp (cont,
"From ", 5
state_putc (' ', s);
Only in mutt-1.5.12.patched/: handler.c.orig
Common subdirectories: mutt-1.5.12/imap and mutt-1.5.12.patched/imap
diff -u mutt-1.5.12/init.h mutt-1.5.12.patched/init.h
--- mutt-1.5.12/init.h 2006-07-05 01:40:05.0 -0700
+++ mutt-1.5.12.patched/init.h 2006-08-07 23:20:25.0 -0700
@@ -2728,6 +2728,16 @@
** ``$$sort_re'' for a less drastic way of controlling this
** behaviour.
*/
+ { "stuff_all_quoted", DT_BOOL, R_NONE, OPTSTUFFALLQUOTED, 0 },
+ /*
+ ** .pp
+ ** When set, mutt will space-stuff all non-empty quoted lines in
+ ** displayed and generated text/plain; format=flowed attachments, as
+ ** allowed by RFC 2646. This makes the quoting of format=flowed text
+ ** easier to read and more consistent with the quoting style
+ ** traditionally used for format=fixed text. When unset, mutt will
+ ** space-stuff quoted lines only as required by RFC 2646.
+ */
{ "suspend", DT_BOOL, R_NONE, OPTSUSPEND, 1 },
/*
** .pp
Only in mutt-1.5.12.patched/: init.h.orig
Common subdirectories: mutt-1.5.12/intl and mutt-1.5.12.patched/intl
Common subdirectories: mutt-1.5.12/m4 and mutt-1
Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1
Chris, On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 04:57:15AM +1200, Chris Bannister wrote: > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 11:05:50AM -0500, Derek Martin wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 07:09:22PM +1200, Chris Bannister wrote: > > > It's *so* easy to grow your own vegetables. > > > > No one said it was hard... most of the things you pay someone else to > > do aren't (though some definitely are). > > Well, if you can afford your own Gardener all the better. You're focused on ONE MINISCULE ASPECT of the problem, which is a negligible fraction of the total. As such, your points don't have any real impact on the discussion. Come back when you're: - Not ever getting your food from grocery stores/restaurants, AND - Building everything you use from parts, AND - Fabricating all of those parts from raw resources, AND - Doing your own taxes, AND - Building your home yourself from materials, AND - Doing all home maintenance/upgrades yourself, AND - Meeting all your healthcare needs without doctors, AND - providing your own means of transportation as above, AND - Acting in your own films, filmed with cameras you built yourself, AND - ... (so many other things that we do regularly) Get the point yet? You simply can't do all that stuff yourself. Specialization is what makes virtually every aspect of modern society possible. The only way to avoid specialization is to avoid all of those things entirely, live in a hut and live off the land, and decide that when you get a potentially fatal disease you are done. In the modern world, you need to make decisions about which of those things to do yourself, and pay people to do the rest of them. That's what specialization IS. For the vast majority of e-mail users, making e-mail work without having to think about how it works is one of those items that they choose to pay somone else to do for them. > I would consider ordering take aways/fast food the 'simple' life. It's simple in its way, but you've missed the point. It's very much a part of the specialization I'm talking about, and as such it fails the test above. -- Derek D. Martinhttp://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0xDFBEAD02 -=-=-=-=- This message is posted from an invalid address. Replying to it will result in undeliverable mail due to spam prevention. Sorry for the inconvenience. pgpp_gnDEuZK2.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 04:33:19PM -0500, Derek Martin wrote: > On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 04:57:15AM +1200, Chris Bannister wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 11:05:50AM -0500, Derek Martin wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 07:09:22PM +1200, Chris Bannister wrote: > > > > It's *so* easy to grow your own vegetables. > > > No one said it was hard... most of the things you pay someone else > > > to do aren't (though some definitely are). > > Well, if you can afford your own Gardener all the better. > > You're focused on ONE MINISCULE ASPECT of the problem, which is a > negligible fraction of the total. As such, your points don't have any > real impact on the discussion. Come back when you're: > - Not ever getting your food from grocery stores/restaurants, AND [...] Agreed. We have a vegetable garden, and it involves quite a bit of time (and some amount of money as well). With two raised beds, we do produce some useful and delicious vegetables, but we are nowhere near at the point where we could live off of food we produce year-roung. And we live in California, with a fairly temperate climate year-round, and own a house with a backyard, which is not the case for a lot of folks. I think there is a middle ground between supporting huge agribusiness and growing / producing / foraging all of your own food, which is difficult or impossible for many. w
Re: display text when a main contains HTML and text
On 18Sep2014 22:17, Ed Blackman wrote: On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 12:52:25PM +0200, Nathan Schwarz wrote: But alternative_order works fine, no more html-mail or lynx-dumps :) However, note that at least some multipart/alternative emails come with an empty or trivial text/plain part. I don't know why someone would go to the trouble of writing a tool that would send multipart and then not put anything in the text/plain, but it does happen. If you use alternative_order to prefer plain text (as I do), you'll need to recognize that sometimes you will need to manually select the HTML part read the email. I also don't understand why some tools send both and make the plain text useless. A useless plaintext is not "alternative" :-( My muttrc says this: message-hook . 'unalternative_order *; alternative_order text/plain text/html' # Apple Mail embeds attachments in the HTML part instead of outside the multipart/mixed message-hook '~h "X-Mailer: Apple Mail" ~X 1-' 'unalternative_order *; alternative_order text/html multipart/mixed text/plain' # senders who can't seem to master multipart/mixed, and send empty or useless text/plain sections # or just badly badly formatted plain text, such as gmail or live.com etc message-hook '%f htmlers | ~f @outlook.com | ~f live.com | ~f @gmail.com' 'unalternative_order *; alternative_order text/html text/plain' In short: Prefer plain text. Unless it is Apple Mail and there is an attachment, because Apple Mail seems to embed the attachments only in the HTML half inside of outside. And unless it comes from sources known to produce useless plain text: outlook, live, gmail or the addresses in my "htmlers" address group. Cheers, Cameron Simpson The reason that God was able to create the world in seven days is that he didn't have to worry about the installed base. - Enzo Torresi
