Re: [mailop] BTInternet delivery problems
There's RFC 1855 of course: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 , a memo which "does not specify an Internet standard of any kind". The one mention of bottom-posting is that you should include "summarize the original at the top of the message" or "include just enough text of the original to give a context" "at the top of your message". This pretty much summarizes my view: * http://web.archive.org/web/20070607221125/http://alpage.ath.cx/toppost/toppost.htm Either way, top-posting is now the de-facto standard in the world, and if you go on about it you will just look like a curmudgeon. Wikipedia says: > This widespread policy in business communication made bottom and inline > posting so unknown among most users that some of the most popular email > programs no longer support the traditional posting style See also: http://emailclientmarketshare.com/ Cheers, Ben From: Suresh Ramasubramanian Sent: 08 September 2015 01:53 > On 08-Sep-2015, at 2:15 am, Bron Gondwana wrote: > > How can you be a special snowflake and make your own stamp on the world if > you follow a standard? > > Bron ( responding to a top post with a standard form of quoting... ) The top posting, bottom posting and interleaved quoting camps need conversion between each other much like 8 bit to quoted printable, say. Some kind soul might want to come up with an RFC on this. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] BTInternet delivery problems
On Tue, Sep 8, 2015, at 18:47, b...@liddicott.com wrote: > There's RFC 1855 of course: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 , a memo > which "does not specify an Internet standard of any kind". > The one mention of bottom-posting is that you should include > "summarize the original at the top of the message" or "include > justenough text of the original to give a context" "at the top of your > message". > > This pretty much summarizes my view: > * http://web.archive.org/web/20070607221125/ > http://alpage.ath.cx/toppost/toppost.htm[1] > > > Either way, top-posting is now the de-facto standard in the world, > and if you go on about it you will just look like a curmudgeon. > Wikipedia says: Woah, I should have put more smileys on that ;) ;) :) !111!!111:p > > This widespread policy in business communication made bottom > > and inline posting so unknown among most users that some of the > > most popular email programs no longer support the traditional > > posting style > > See also: http://emailclientmarketshare.com/ > > Cheers, Ben > > > *From: *Suresh Ramasubramanian *Sent: *08 September 2015 01:53 > > > > On 08-Sep-2015, at 2:15 am, Bron Gondwana wrote: > > > > How can you be a special snowflake and make your own stamp on the > > world if > > you follow a standard? > > > > Bron ( responding to a top post with a standard form of quoting... ) > > The top posting, bottom posting and interleaved quoting camps > need conversion between each other much like 8 bit to quoted > printable, say. > > Some kind soul might want to come up with an RFC on this. > -- Bron Gondwana br...@fastmail.fm Links: 1. http://web.archive.org/web/20070607221125/http:/alpage.ath.cx/toppost/toppost.htm ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] BTInternet delivery problems
On Tue 2015-Sep-08 06:45:55 +1000, Bron Gondwana wrote: On Tue, Sep 8, 2015, at 04:39, Gary Baribault wrote: On 07/09/15 02:31 PM, mikea wrote: On Mon, Sep 07, 2015 at 02:10:48PM -0400, Gary Baribault wrote: Whatever happened to postmas...@example.com? First, it was a standard. Second, it got too much traffic. I get the too much traffic part, what's wrong with it being a standard? How can you be a special snowflake and make your own stamp on the world if you follow a standard? As a numbered list of gripes/issues/concerns it doesn't make too much sense. As a chronology, though? "First, this happened (which was fine). Then, this happened (which sucked)." Perhaps mikea meant the latter. Bron ( responding to a top post with a standard form of quoting... ) -- Hugo ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] BTInternet delivery problems
On Tue, Sep 08, 2015 at 08:18:18AM -0700, Hugo Slabbert wrote: > On Tue 2015-Sep-08 06:45:55 +1000, Bron Gondwana wrote: > >On Tue, Sep 8, 2015, at 04:39, Gary Baribault wrote: > >>On 07/09/15 02:31 PM, mikea wrote: > >>>On Mon, Sep 07, 2015 at 02:10:48PM -0400, Gary Baribault wrote: > Whatever happened to postmas...@example.com? > >>>First, it was a standard. > >>> > >>>Second, it got too much traffic. > >> > >>I get the too much traffic part, what's wrong with it being a standard? > >> > >How can you be a special snowflake and make your own stamp on the world if > >you follow a standard? > > > > As a numbered list of gripes/issues/concerns it doesn't make too much sense. > As a chronology, though? > > "First, this happened (which was fine). > Then, this happened (which sucked)." > > Perhaps mikea meant the latter. It's a standard, so they elect to not follow it. More the rule than the exception nowadays w.r.t. standards, I fear. Second, it's a standard, so it gets too much mail, and they'd prefer not to have to deal with even valid complaints, much less invalid complaints and spam. -- Mike Andrews, W5EGO mi...@mikea.ath.cx Tired old sysadmin ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop
[mailop] UPDATE: (was Re: Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention)
Straight from the proverbial horse's mouth (someone at MS), shared with
permission:
"We are migrating mailboxes from the current Hotmail/outlook.com infrastructure
over to Office 365. This means that migrated users have their mail hit
Hotmail's front end and then forwarded to Office 365 where it re-undergoes an
authentication check, but is not actually enforced. The original spam/non-spam
verdict at Hotmail is re-propagated through the system. If the message is
subsequently forwarded some other place, it will fail DMARC because Office 365
has an issue where it modifies message content when forwarding ("fixes" it up).
This behavior will be changed in the Sept/Oct time frame."
---
Anne
Anne P. Mitchell,
Attorney at Law
CEO/President
ISIPP SuretyMail Email Reputation, Accreditation & Certification
Your mail system + SuretyMail accreditation = delivered to their inbox!
Are you an ESP? Ask us about our Email Academy for YOUR Users!
http://www.SuretyMail.com/
http://www.SuretyMail.eu/
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
303-731-2121 | amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
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Re: [mailop] UPDATE: (was Re: Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention)
So - that means the problems we are having will spread to hotmail?
On 09/08/15 10:03, Anne Mitchell wrote:
Straight from the proverbial horse's mouth (someone at MS), shared with
permission:
"We are migrating mailboxes from the current Hotmail/outlook.com infrastructure over to Office
365. This means that migrated users have their mail hit Hotmail's front end and then forwarded to
Office 365 where it re-undergoes an authentication check, but is not actually enforced. The
original spam/non-spam verdict at Hotmail is re-propagated through the system. If the message is
subsequently forwarded some other place, it will fail DMARC because Office 365 has an issue where
it modifies message content when forwarding ("fixes" it up). This behavior will be
changed in the Sept/Oct time frame."
---
Anne
Anne P. Mitchell,
Attorney at Law
CEO/President
ISIPP SuretyMail Email Reputation, Accreditation & Certification
Your mail system + SuretyMail accreditation = delivered to their inbox!
Are you an ESP? Ask us about our Email Academy for YOUR Users!
http://www.SuretyMail.com/
http://www.SuretyMail.eu/
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
303-731-2121 | amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
Facebook/AnnePMitchell | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell
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Junk Email Filter dot com
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Re: [mailop] UPDATE: (was Re: Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention)
> On Sep 8, 2015, at 10:03 AM, Anne Mitchell wrote:
>
> Straight from the proverbial horse's mouth (someone at MS), shared with
> permission:
>
> "We are migrating mailboxes from the current Hotmail/outlook.com
> infrastructure over to Office 365. This means that migrated users have their
> mail hit Hotmail's front end and then forwarded to Office 365 where it
> re-undergoes an authentication check, but is not actually enforced. The
> original spam/non-spam verdict at Hotmail is re-propagated through the
> system. If the message is subsequently forwarded some other place, it will
> fail DMARC because Office 365 has an issue where it modifies message content
> when forwarding ("fixes" it up). This behavior will be changed in the
> Sept/Oct time frame.”
It’s good to know that the advice given in the thread was correct.
laura
--
Having an Email Crisis? 800 823-9674
Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741
Email Delivery Blog: http://wordtothewise.com/blog
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Re: [mailop] BTInternet delivery problems
> On Sep 8, 2015, at 9:36 AM, mikea wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 08, 2015 at 08:18:18AM -0700, Hugo Slabbert wrote: >> On Tue 2015-Sep-08 06:45:55 +1000, Bron Gondwana wrote: >>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2015, at 04:39, Gary Baribault wrote: On 07/09/15 02:31 PM, mikea wrote: > On Mon, Sep 07, 2015 at 02:10:48PM -0400, Gary Baribault wrote: >> Whatever happened to postmas...@example.com? > First, it was a standard. > > Second, it got too much traffic. I get the too much traffic part, what's wrong with it being a standard? >>> How can you be a special snowflake and make your own stamp on the world if >>> you follow a standard? >>> >> >> As a numbered list of gripes/issues/concerns it doesn't make too much sense. >> As a chronology, though? >> >> "First, this happened (which was fine). >> Then, this happened (which sucked)." >> >> Perhaps mikea meant the latter. > > > It's a standard, so they elect to not follow it. More the rule than the > exception nowadays w.r.t. standards, I fear. > > Second, it's a standard, so it gets too much mail, and they'd prefer not to > have to deal with even valid complaints, much less invalid complaints and > spam. > Postmaster isn’t really the place for deliverability issues, in my experience. The postmasters seem to be more about keeping the system up and running. Most bigger networks have dedicated filter staff that are separate from the postmaster team. It’s been years since I’ve had any response from postmaster@ other than “you need to go *here* for deliverability support. laura -- Having an Email Crisis? 800 823-9674 Laura Atkins Word to the Wise la...@wordtothewise.com (650) 437-0741 Email Delivery Blog: http://wordtothewise.com/blog ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] UPDATE: (was Re: Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention)
I thought Hotmail.com and Outlook.com are the same beast?
--
Dave Warren
http://www.hireahit.com/
http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davejwarren
On 2015-09-08 12:42, Marc Perkel wrote:
So - that means the problems we are having will spread to hotmail?
On 09/08/15 10:03, Anne Mitchell wrote:
Straight from the proverbial horse's mouth (someone at MS), shared
with permission:
"We are migrating mailboxes from the current Hotmail/outlook.com
infrastructure over to Office 365. This means that migrated users
have their mail hit Hotmail's front end and then forwarded to Office
365 where it re-undergoes an authentication check, but is not
actually enforced. The original spam/non-spam verdict at Hotmail is
re-propagated through the system. If the message is subsequently
forwarded some other place, it will fail DMARC because Office 365 has
an issue where it modifies message content when forwarding ("fixes"
it up). This behavior will be changed in the Sept/Oct time frame."
---
Anne
Anne P. Mitchell,
Attorney at Law
CEO/President
ISIPP SuretyMail Email Reputation, Accreditation & Certification
Your mail system + SuretyMail accreditation = delivered to their inbox!
Are you an ESP? Ask us about our Email Academy for YOUR Users!
http://www.SuretyMail.com/
http://www.SuretyMail.eu/
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam
law)
Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
303-731-2121 | amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
Facebook/AnnePMitchell | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell
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Re: [mailop] UPDATE: (was Re: Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention)
> On Sep 8, 2015, at 1:19 PM, Dave Warren wrote: > > I thought Hotmail.com and Outlook.com are the same beast? Hotmail.com and Outlook.com are the same beast. Office 365 is Microsoft’s hosted exchange product. Hotmail/Outlook are the same infrastructure. Office 365 has its own infrastructure. There has been concerted effort inside Microsoft to consolidate to one backend infrastructure. From the outside this is one of the parts of consolidation. Given the size of the project I expect it will take, minimum, 2 years and there will be some hiccups along the way. laura -- Having an Email Crisis? 800 823-9674 Laura Atkins Word to the Wise la...@wordtothewise.com (650) 437-0741 Email Delivery Blog: http://wordtothewise.com/blog ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] BTInternet delivery problems
On Tue, Sep 8, 2015, at 06:47 PM, b...@liddicott.com wrote: > Either way, top-posting is now the de-facto standard in the world, and if > you go on about it you will just look like a curmudgeon. Wikipedia says: I considered top posting to this thread, but in HTML. () ascii ribbon campaign - against HTML e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments Alfie -- Alfie John al...@fastmail.com ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] BTInternet delivery problems
b...@liddicott.com wrote: ^^^ what a surprise... > > > > Either way, top-posting is now the de-facto standard in the world, and > if you go on about it you will just look like a curmudgeon. Wikipedia > says: > > > > > This widespread policy in business communication made bottom and > inline posting so unknown among most users that some of the most > popular email programs no longer support the traditional posting style > > > You mean LookOut clients and users don't know how to do the right thing... Even my iPad does the right thing! (well mostly - it quotes in a way that allows both top posted and inline replies) Michelle PS: I love LookOut on my Mac, users still send in a way that it can't even quote properly, so I make a point of inlining the replies with all text in a different colour... and then replies to replies get another color... I'm looking forward to an epic thread when I get to over 256 colours (not because I can't but because most people can't tell) -- Michelle Sullivan http://www.mhix.org/ ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop
