Re: [MlMt] I need a email provider with: catchall receiving - wildcard sending
On 29 Aug 2024, at 18:41, Randall Gellens wrote: > I've been running my own mail server since last century and haven't run into > any problems with big email providers not accepting my mail. What problems > did you have? You may just be lucky. Normally, they want at least DKIM and SPF records and you might still be greylisted. Or, worse, and happens to me on G-Mail, your e-mails are considered spam and you'll be silently ignored unless the users check their explicitly. I've had this domain around 25 years and my business one for 15 and you still get occasional rejections because you might be a spam pusher… If one considers that the internet was initially conceived to avoid the single point of failure risk, we're getting closer to unwinding it with one of the key and most reliable forms of communication e-mail. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that within the next couple of years nearly all business communication (outside China) will run on either Microsoft or Google servers, at which point they'll be able to extend and then extinguish protocols… Charlie -- Charlie Clark Sengelsweg 34 Düsseldorf D- 40489 Tel: +49-203-746000 Mobile: +49-178-782-6226 ___ mailmate mailing list Unsubscribe: https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] I need a email provider with: catchall receiving - wildcard sending
The apple iCloud mail servers use the PMDF based mail server (which was taken over by Sun and then Oracle). That’s why I prefer to use apple mail for my email service. (Full disclosure: I used to work on that email server along with some giants in the email space like Ned Freed, hence my greater trust in it). On 30 Aug 2024, at 5:15, Charlie Clark wrote: On 29 Aug 2024, at 18:41, Randall Gellens wrote: I've been running my own mail server since last century and haven't run into any problems with big email providers not accepting my mail. What problems did you have? You may just be lucky. Normally, they want at least DKIM and SPF records and you might still be greylisted. Or, worse, and happens to me on G-Mail, your e-mails are considered spam and you'll be silently ignored unless the users check their explicitly. I've had this domain around 25 years and my business one for 15 and you still get occasional rejections because you might be a spam pusher… If one considers that the internet was initially conceived to avoid the single point of failure risk, we're getting closer to unwinding it with one of the key and most reliable forms of communication e-mail. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that within the next couple of years nearly all business communication (outside China) will run on either Microsoft or Google servers, at which point they'll be able to extend and then extinguish protocols… Charlie -- Charlie Clark Sengelsweg 34 Düsseldorf D- 40489 Tel: +49-203-746000 Mobile: +49-178-782-6226 ___ mailmate mailing list Unsubscribe: https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate___ mailmate mailing list Unsubscribe: https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] I need a email provider with: catchall receiving - wildcard sending
My wish is for (SMTP) servers to support higher levels of group sends as BCC. Many severely limited that to <=50 or less (AWS) without further charges (as a commercial client). I find this disappointing. Any SMTP Servers that do otherwise? Respectfully, Henry Seiden - - Techworks Pro Co. E: infotechworksprocom W: http://techworkspro.com On 30 Aug 2024, at 12:14, David Lim via mailmate wrote: The apple iCloud mail servers use the PMDF based mail server (which was taken over by Sun and then Oracle). That’s why I prefer to use apple mail for my email service. (Full disclosure: I used to work on that email server along with some giants in the email space like Ned Freed, hence my greater trust in it).___ mailmate mailing list Unsubscribe: https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] I need a email provider with: catchall receiving - wildcard sending
On 30 Aug 2024, at 5:15, Charlie Clark wrote: On 29 Aug 2024, at 18:41, Randall Gellens wrote: I've been running my own mail server since last century and haven't run into any problems with big email providers not accepting my mail. What problems did you have? You may just be lucky. Normally, they want at least DKIM and SPF records and you might still be greylisted. Yes, I did need to create SPF records in my DNS, but aside from that, nothing else. I didn't need DKIM. I also make sure there are no open relays, of course. Or, worse, and happens to me on G-Mail, your e-mails are considered spam and you'll be silently ignored unless the users check their explicitly. I've had this domain around 25 years and my business one for 15 and you still get occasional rejections because you might be a spam pusher… That's a risk, perhaps no more so with you own mail server, though. If one considers that the internet was initially conceived to avoid the single point of failure risk, we're getting closer to unwinding it with one of the key and most reliable forms of communication e-mail. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that within the next couple of years nearly all business communication (outside China) will run on either Microsoft or Google servers, at which point they'll be able to extend and then extinguish protocols… We've moved quite far from the original principles (openness, complexity/enforcement at edges, no middleboxes interfering, narrow waist). Email is a casualty of its design principle that anyone can send to anyone. Perhaps X.400 was right after all :-). Charlie -- Charlie Clark Sengelsweg 34 Düsseldorf D- 40489 Tel: +49-203-746000 Mobile: +49-178-782-6226 ___ mailmate mailing list Unsubscribe: https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate --Randall ___ mailmate mailing list Unsubscribe: https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] I need a email provider with: catchall receiving - wildcard sending
On 30 Aug 2024, at 10:15, Henry Seiden wrote: My wish is for (SMTP) servers to support higher levels of group sends as BCC. Many severely limited that to <=50 or less (AWS) without further charges (as a commercial client). I find this disappointing. Any SMTP Servers that do otherwise? This seems like a configuration choice and hence up to different service providers. I'm unaware of any SMTP servers with built-in limits. Mine doesn't. From an SMTP perspective, the various message header fields are irrelevant to the SMTP protocol (aside from trace header fields); there is no difference at an SMTP level between 'To:' addresses and 'Bcc:' addresses. It's always risky to use the 'Bcc' field, though, because it's too easy to accidentally put the addresses in 'To' or "Cc". It's generally better to use a mailing list. Many SMTP servers support their own crude mailing lists (simple address expansion) and of course there are many mailing list servers available, such as Mailman. --Randall ___ mailmate mailing list Unsubscribe: https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] I need a email provider with: catchall receiving - wildcard sending
On 30 Aug 2024, at 9:14, David Lim via mailmate wrote: The apple iCloud mail servers use the PMDF based mail server (which was taken over by Sun and then Oracle). That’s why I prefer to use apple mail for my email service. (Full disclosure: I used to work on that email server along with some giants in the email space like Ned Freed, hence my greater trust in it). PMDF is an exemplary server. Ned was a lion. Chris is excellent as well. --Randall ___ mailmate mailing list Unsubscribe: https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] I need a email provider with: catchall receiving - wildcard sending
Randall, Having an AWS account and exploring it fully, I can tell you that group email to <50 there is a HARD LIMIT with the SES Mail Service. Also, the lack of any tech support at AWS is another problem. Had to get this answered by the Sales & Marketing groups. Tech Support was clueless! I found free versions of SMTP service providers to investigate - those with $0 cost options. [Here](https://www.emailtooltester.com/en/blog/free-smtp-servers/#gmail) you will find some analysis of SMTP sender servers and their limitations. Notably as well is the limitation of Google Services’ Gmail servers. Many people have Google but fewer are aware of the services and/or limitations of same. My SMTP Server use case, in real terms is for 50-100 emails pieces/mo from my domain address (this one) that comes with 100 BCC senders group (irregardless of To or BCC) in any single email. The limits of the domain servers have been shrinking and limitations due to BW and spam rules have been on the rise, in case you don’t know. FWIW, my server has been vetted for DKIM, etc. … Good luck. Respectfully, Henry Seiden - - Techworks Pro Co. E: infotechworksprocom W: http://techworkspro.com On 30 Aug 2024, at 13:28, Randall Gellens wrote: This seems like a configuration choice and hence up to different service providers. I'm unaware of any SMTP servers with built-in limits. Mine doesn't. From an SMTP perspective, the various message header fields are irrelevant to the SMTP protocol (aside from trace header fields); there is no difference at an SMTP level between 'To:' addresses and 'Bcc:' addresses. It's always risky to use the 'Bcc' field, though, because it's too easy to accidentally put the addresses in 'To' or "Cc". It's generally better to use a mailing list. Many SMTP servers support their own crude mailing lists (simple address expansion) and of course there are many mailing list servers available, such as Mailman.___ mailmate mailing list Unsubscribe: https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] I need a email provider with: catchall receiving - wildcard sending
On 30 Aug 2024, at 10:56, Henry Seiden wrote: Having an AWS account and exploring it fully, I can tell you that group email to <50 there is a HARD LIMIT with the SES Mail Service. I never doubted that you were experiencing such limits. My points is that these limits are imposed by the service provider. Just to illustrate my point, if you were to run your own SMTP server on your own machine (real or virtual or cloud), you could choose from many SMTP servers, none of which have any built-in limitations on addresses per mail. Also, the lack of any tech support at AWS is another problem. Had to get this answered by the Sales & Marketing groups. Tech Support was clueless! That's terrible to hear, but unfortunately not surprising. I found free versions of SMTP service providers to investigate - those with $0 cost options. [Here](https://www.emailtooltester.com/en/blog/free-smtp-servers/#gmail) you will find some analysis of SMTP sender servers and their limitations. Notably as well is the limitation of Google Services’ Gmail servers. Many people have Google but fewer are aware of the services and/or limitations of same. Personally, I'd stay away from Google and Microsoft, as neither are too concerned with complying with standards. My SMTP Server use case, in real terms is for 50-100 emails pieces/mo from my domain address (this one) that comes with 100 BCC senders group (irregardless of To or BCC) in any single email. The limits of the domain servers have been shrinking and limitations due to BW and spam rules have been on the rise, in case you don’t know. FWIW, my server has been vetted for DKIM, etc. … Good luck. You might have better luck if you use a mailing list server so that each recipient gets their own individually-addressed email, with proper "List-" header fields and so forth. That might help lower the likelihood of your messages being categorized as spam. --Randall ___ mailmate mailing list Unsubscribe: https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] I need a email provider with: catchall receiving - wildcard sending
On 30 Aug 2024, at 16:08, Bill Cole wrote: On 2024-08-30 at 13:22:20 UTC-0400 (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 10:22:20 -0700) Randall Gellens is rumored to have said: On 30 Aug 2024, at 5:15, Charlie Clark wrote: On 29 Aug 2024, at 18:41, Randall Gellens wrote: I've been running my own mail server since last century and haven't run into any problems with big email providers not accepting my mail. What problems did you have? You may just be lucky. Normally, they want at least DKIM and SPF records and you might still be greylisted. Yes, I did need to create SPF records in my DNS, but aside from that, nothing else. I didn't need DKIM. I also make sure there are no open relays, of course. It may be relevant that you, me, and everyone else who has been running their own mail since the 90's have benefitted from having started before the mail universe was centralized to a few behemoths who have now learned to be suspicious of new entrants. Google and MS have had a long time to learn to accept your mail and my mail. True, but I also highly doubt that any of the big players have the slightest idea that small players such as us even exist. --Randall ___ mailmate mailing list Unsubscribe: https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] I need a email provider with: catchall receiving - wildcard sending
On 2024-08-30 at 19:23:17 UTC-0400 (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 16:23:17 -0700) Randall Gellens is rumored to have said: On 30 Aug 2024, at 16:08, Bill Cole wrote: On 2024-08-30 at 13:22:20 UTC-0400 (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 10:22:20 -0700) Randall Gellens is rumored to have said: On 30 Aug 2024, at 5:15, Charlie Clark wrote: On 29 Aug 2024, at 18:41, Randall Gellens wrote: I've been running my own mail server since last century and haven't run into any problems with big email providers not accepting my mail. What problems did you have? [...] It may be relevant that you, me, and everyone else who has been running their own mail since the 90's have benefitted from having started before the mail universe was centralized to a few behemoths who have now learned to be suspicious of new entrants. Google and MS have had a long time to learn to accept your mail and my mail. True, but I also highly doubt that any of the big players have the slightest idea that small players such as us even exist. Right, there's no one who could find a place at MS or Google where our domains or IPs are explicitly tagged as trustworthy. However, both have filtering systems using machine learning techniques building models that may well have been seeded from the start with mail more significantly from such small players, anchoring a model of systems like ours from which we continue to benefit. Conversely, if one registers a domain and buys a cheap VPS and stands up a new mail system all in a day, they look like a certain class of spammer. Such an initial misclassification can live a very long time in a machine learning model, even in something simple like a Naive Bayesian classifier. -- Bill Cole b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org (AKA @grumpybozo@toad.social and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses) Not Currently Available For Hire ___ mailmate mailing list Unsubscribe: https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] I need a email provider with: catchall receiving - wildcard sending
On 2024-08-30 at 13:22:20 UTC-0400 (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 10:22:20 -0700) Randall Gellens is rumored to have said: On 30 Aug 2024, at 5:15, Charlie Clark wrote: On 29 Aug 2024, at 18:41, Randall Gellens wrote: I've been running my own mail server since last century and haven't run into any problems with big email providers not accepting my mail. What problems did you have? You may just be lucky. Normally, they want at least DKIM and SPF records and you might still be greylisted. Yes, I did need to create SPF records in my DNS, but aside from that, nothing else. I didn't need DKIM. I also make sure there are no open relays, of course. It may be relevant that you, me, and everyone else who has been running their own mail since the 90's have benefitted from having started before the mail universe was centralized to a few behemoths who have now learned to be suspicious of new entrants. Google and MS have had a long time to learn to accept your mail and my mail. -- Bill Cole b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org (AKA @grumpybozo@toad.social and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses) Not Currently Available For Hire ___ mailmate mailing list Unsubscribe: https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
