Re: Get to top of window on iMac with Magic Mouse and keyboard

[Muhammad Fayed]

Thank you so much for your message.

For the first shortcut, yes it works properly.
2. For the second, I don’t understand the point. I try VO+fn+left or right, it 
is the same as VO+left or right! Is that what you mean?

Thank you so much for your help,

Regards,

Mohamed E. Fayed 

> On 14 Sep 2021, at 3:50 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Actually, you do have the Home/End/Page-Up/Page-Down keys on your keyboard.  
> Add the FN key to the left arrow for Home, to the right arrow key for End, to 
> the up arrow for Page-Up and to the down arrow for Page-Down.  That being 
> said, you have multiple methods by which to accomplish moving to the top of a 
> window.
> 
> For all these, make sure that you’ve first interacted with the text area of 
> the document.
> 
> 1.  Cmd-up arrow will move you to the top of the document.
> 2.  VO-FN-left will move you to the top of the document area.
> 
> Also, know that using the right arrow instead of the left along with these 
> modifiers will move you to the end of the document area.  Adding shift to the 
> mix will select from the cursor point to the top or bottom.
> 
> HTH.
> 
> Later…
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 3:12 AM, Muhammad Fayed > > wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I want a shortcut to get to the top of a window using Voiceover on iMac. I 
>> don’t have trackpad, but Magic Mouse plus keyboard without home/end/page up 
>> or page down buttons.
>> 
>> The exact behavior can be performed using VO+h > commands > navigation > go 
>> to beginning or end.
>> 
>> An example use case is to get to a top of webpage and not to the close 
>> button at the very top of Safari itself.
>> 
>> Thank you so much,
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Mohamed E. Fayed 
>> 
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Re: Get to top of window on iMac with Magic Mouse and keyboard

[Muhammad Fayed]

Another thing please, on my MBP, I assigned it to trackpad commander, when I 
use it on Apple Mail and interact with messages section, where I find a list of 
conversations and mail I get not the message or thread content, 
   it gets to the top message. But not any of what you mentioned does that!

That makes me a little confused, since the same trackpad commander works as 
both behaviors !!!

BY THE WAY, I’m using Mac OS 11.5.2 on MBP and 11.5 on iMac.

Thank you so much,

Regards,

Mohamed E. Fayed 

> On 14 Sep 2021, at 3:50 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Actually, you do have the Home/End/Page-Up/Page-Down keys on your keyboard.  
> Add the FN key to the left arrow for Home, to the right arrow key for End, to 
> the up arrow for Page-Up and to the down arrow for Page-Down.  That being 
> said, you have multiple methods by which to accomplish moving to the top of a 
> window.
> 
> For all these, make sure that you’ve first interacted with the text area of 
> the document.
> 
> 1.  Cmd-up arrow will move you to the top of the document.
> 2.  VO-FN-left will move you to the top of the document area.
> 
> Also, know that using the right arrow instead of the left along with these 
> modifiers will move you to the end of the document area.  Adding shift to the 
> mix will select from the cursor point to the top or bottom.
> 
> HTH.
> 
> Later…
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 3:12 AM, Muhammad Fayed > > wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I want a shortcut to get to the top of a window using Voiceover on iMac. I 
>> don’t have trackpad, but Magic Mouse plus keyboard without home/end/page up 
>> or page down buttons.
>> 
>> The exact behavior can be performed using VO+h > commands > navigation > go 
>> to beginning or end.
>> 
>> An example use case is to get to a top of webpage and not to the close 
>> button at the very top of Safari itself.
>> 
>> Thank you so much,
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Mohamed E. Fayed 
>> 
>> -- 
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>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
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> 
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Anyone know how to enter a hard page return into a Pages document on aniPad using a bluetooth keyboard?

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

Hi all,

I’ve tried CTRL-Enter, and looked in all the logical places—insert, format, 
etc.—but can’t find it.  Anyone know how to do this?
TIA,
Donna

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Re: Anyone know how to enter a hard page return into a Pages document on aniPad using a bluetooth keyboard?

[Dave Carlson]

DONNA,

FOUND INFORMATION ON THE FOLLOWING WEB SITE:

Keyboard shortcuts for Pages on Mac - Apple Support 


Page Break
,  Fn-Command-Return or Command-Enter (not available on all keyboards) 
 

Dave Carlson
Oregonian, Engineer, Musician, Farfar, Woodworker, and Pioneer

On Sep 15, 2021, at 6:16 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
 wrote:

Hi all,

I’ve tried CTRL-Enter, and looked in all the logical places—insert, format, 
etc.—but can’t find it.  Anyone know how to do this?
TIA,
Donna

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Re: Anyone know how to enter a hard page return into a Pages document on aniPad using a bluetooth keyboard?

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

Huh! Thanks, Dave, I’ll give that a try.  I was using a Mantis, so it’ll be 
interesting to see if that’s one of the keyboards in the not available group.
Cheers,
Donna


> On Sep 15, 2021, at 8:30 AM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
> 
> DONNA,
> 
> FOUND INFORMATION ON THE FOLLOWING WEB SITE:
> 
> Keyboard shortcuts for Pages on Mac - Apple Support 
> 
> 
> Page Break
> ,  Fn-Command-Return or Command-Enter (not available on all keyboards) 
>  
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Oregonian, Engineer, Musician, Farfar, Woodworker, and Pioneer
> 
> On Sep 15, 2021, at 6:16 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I’ve tried CTRL-Enter, and looked in all the logical places—insert, format, 
> etc.—but can’t find it.  Anyone know how to do this?
> TIA,
> Donna
> 
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Re: Can I ad a home button through accessibility settings on my iPhone11?

['Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries]

Hi,

And why is it weird?  If there had not been a Home button in the earlier 
iPhones, then this would have been normal to you.  There’s nothing weird about 
the gesture, it’s simply different than what you’ve been accustomed to.

Later…


Tim Kilburn
Jamf Certified Tech
Apple Professional Learning Specialist
Apple Teacher
(with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

> On Sep 14, 2021, at 9:01 PM, Joseph Hudson  wrote:
> 
> Yeah but I still have to use that weird gesture to get to the app switcher.
> 
>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 3:59 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I totally agree with Brad on this one.  The soft “Home” button can be added 
>> using these instructions…
>> 
>> https://www.macintoshhowto.com/hardware/how-to-add-a-software-home-button-on-your-iphone-or-ipad-screen.html
>> 
>> Although, I’m not sure how accessible it will be to you as a VoiceOver user, 
>> and the gesture for going Home is real easy to get used to and does not take 
>> much effort at all.
>> 
>> Later…
>> 
>> 
>> Tim Kilburn
>> Jamf Certified Tech
>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>> Apple Teacher
>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>> 
>>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 2:28 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Normal??
>>> Normal would be learning to use your iPhone without a Home button as 
>>> intended.
>>> 
>>> - Brad -
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 14:38, Chuck Reichel  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi List,
>>> I am very new to the iPhone 11 and someone who is going to teach me some 
>>> procedures on it told me that I can ad a home button through software which 
>>> will appear at ehe bottom of the screen to help get back to normal so to 
>>> speak?
>>> Is this doable?
>>> Or does it already exist and I don’t know
>>> About it?
>>> Thanks
>>> Chuck
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: Direct Access to Startup Disk Dialog in System Preferences

['Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries]

Hi,

Using Terminal is probably your best bet.  See this link for more details:

http://www.robertopasini.com/index.php/2-uncategorised/556-osx-setting-the-startup-disk-using-terminal
 


If you need any other assistance creating the shell script, let us know.

Later…


Tim Kilburn
Jamf Certified Tech
Apple Professional Learning Specialist
Apple Teacher
(with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

> On Sep 14, 2021, at 10:20 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
> 
> I use the Startup Disk Dialog often to switch back and forth between Mojave 
> and Catalina. Is there a way to put a shortcut or alias on my desktop to 
> quickly access this dialog? Or even better a rapid way to switch between the 
> OS options? They are on separate partitions on my hard drive.
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Farfar, Engineer, Oregonian, Woodworker, and Pioneer
> 
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Re: Get to top of window on iMac with Magic Mouse and keyboard

['Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries]

Hi,

Regarding #2, VO+left or right will move between items one at. Time.  So, for 
example, in a document if you’ve interacted with the document area, it would 
move word by word.  In a table, it would move across the row announcing each 
column’s contents for that row, then move to the next row doing the same thing 
until the table end.  If in a browser, it will move element by element with 
varying amounts of items read, all depending on whether you’re in Group or DOM 
navigation.

When you add FN to the VO+left or right gesture, it will no longer move in the 
manner outlined above, it will instead move the VO cursor directly to the 
beginning or end of the interacted with area.

Consider that a screen reader can only work when there are specific API hooks 
for it to grab ahold of.  Each hook is analyzed by the screen reader to 
determine how to behave.  So, if the developer of an application uses 
accessible elements within their coding, then the screen reader is able to have 
specific commands to ignore some elements and go directly to the hook 
identified as the beginning or end of an item, or group of items.  If these 
accessible elements are not implemented within the coding of the application, 
then the screen reader has nothing to hook onto, thus it can’t tell you 
anything.

HTH.

Later…


Tim Kilburn
Jamf Certified Tech
Apple Professional Learning Specialist
Apple Teacher
(with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 4:48 AM, Muhammad Fayed  wrote:
> 
> Thank you so much for your message.
> 
> For the first shortcut, yes it works properly.
> 2. For the second, I don’t understand the point. I try VO+fn+left or right, 
> it is the same as VO+left or right! Is that what you mean?
> 
> Thank you so much for your help,
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mohamed E. Fayed 
> 
>> On 14 Sep 2021, at 3:50 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Actually, you do have the Home/End/Page-Up/Page-Down keys on your keyboard.  
>> Add the FN key to the left arrow for Home, to the right arrow key for End, 
>> to the up arrow for Page-Up and to the down arrow for Page-Down.  That being 
>> said, you have multiple methods by which to accomplish moving to the top of 
>> a window.
>> 
>> For all these, make sure that you’ve first interacted with the text area of 
>> the document.
>> 
>> 1.  Cmd-up arrow will move you to the top of the document.
>> 2.  VO-FN-left will move you to the top of the document area.
>> 
>> Also, know that using the right arrow instead of the left along with these 
>> modifiers will move you to the end of the document area.  Adding shift to 
>> the mix will select from the cursor point to the top or bottom.
>> 
>> HTH.
>> 
>> Later…
>> 
>> Tim Kilburn
>> Jamf Certified Tech
>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>> Apple Teacher
>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>> 
>>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 3:12 AM, Muhammad Fayed >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I want a shortcut to get to the top of a window using Voiceover on iMac. I 
>>> don’t have trackpad, but Magic Mouse plus keyboard without home/end/page up 
>>> or page down buttons.
>>> 
>>> The exact behavior can be performed using VO+h > commands > navigation > go 
>>> to beginning or end.
>>> 
>>> An example use case is to get to a top of webpage and not to the close 
>>> button at the very top of Safari itself.
>>> 
>>> Thank you so much,
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Mohamed E. Fayed 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
>>>  mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>> 
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>> .
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/A0CCDB57-4A17-4952-B18E-75E4A253DCBB%40gmail.com
>>>  
>>> .
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visiona

Re: Get to top of window on iMac with Magic Mouse and keyboard

['Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries]

Hi,

You need to make sure that you’ve interacted with the messages table, or other 
area in order for these commands to work.  If you do not interact with the 
Messages table, then moving to the beginning or end of the table is not a 
relevant command.

Later…


Tim Kilburn
Jamf Certified Tech
Apple Professional Learning Specialist
Apple Teacher
(with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 4:50 AM, Muhammad Fayed  wrote:
> 
> Another thing please, on my MBP, I assigned it to trackpad commander, when I 
> use it on Apple Mail and interact with messages section, where I find a list 
> of conversations and mail I get not the message or thread content,
> it gets to the top message. But not any of what you mentioned does 
> that!
> 
> That makes me a little confused, since the same trackpad commander works as 
> both behaviors !!!
> 
> BY THE WAY, I’m using Mac OS 11.5.2 on MBP and 11.5 on iMac.
> 
> Thank you so much,
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mohamed E. Fayed 
> 
>> On 14 Sep 2021, at 3:50 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Actually, you do have the Home/End/Page-Up/Page-Down keys on your keyboard.  
>> Add the FN key to the left arrow for Home, to the right arrow key for End, 
>> to the up arrow for Page-Up and to the down arrow for Page-Down.  That being 
>> said, you have multiple methods by which to accomplish moving to the top of 
>> a window.
>> 
>> For all these, make sure that you’ve first interacted with the text area of 
>> the document.
>> 
>> 1.  Cmd-up arrow will move you to the top of the document.
>> 2.  VO-FN-left will move you to the top of the document area.
>> 
>> Also, know that using the right arrow instead of the left along with these 
>> modifiers will move you to the end of the document area.  Adding shift to 
>> the mix will select from the cursor point to the top or bottom.
>> 
>> HTH.
>> 
>> Later…
>> 
>> Tim Kilburn
>> Jamf Certified Tech
>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>> Apple Teacher
>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>> 
>>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 3:12 AM, Muhammad Fayed >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I want a shortcut to get to the top of a window using Voiceover on iMac. I 
>>> don’t have trackpad, but Magic Mouse plus keyboard without home/end/page up 
>>> or page down buttons.
>>> 
>>> The exact behavior can be performed using VO+h > commands > navigation > go 
>>> to beginning or end.
>>> 
>>> An example use case is to get to a top of webpage and not to the close 
>>> button at the very top of Safari itself.
>>> 
>>> Thank you so much,
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Mohamed E. Fayed 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
>>>  mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>> 
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>> .
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/A0CCDB57-4A17-4952-B18E-75E4A253DCBB%40gmail.com
>>>  
>>> .
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>>  
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>  
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
>> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>  
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>> 
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this

Re: Direct Access to Startup Disk Dialog in System Preferences

[Dave Carlson]

Tim,
Excellent information. Since I’m very new to any terminal stuff, may I ask a 
couple more questions?

1. How do I get to the terminal command line quickly?

2. If I do use the pseudo bless command  string to designate my other volume to 
be the next boot, will that be a permanent change, or will everything go back 
to normal after a subsequent reboot?

Dave Carlson
Oregonian, Engineer, Musician, Farfar, Woodworker, and Pioneer

On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:12 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
 wrote:

Hi,

Using Terminal is probably your best bet.  See this link for more details:

http://www.robertopasini.com/index.php/2-uncategorised/556-osx-setting-the-startup-disk-using-terminal
 


If you need any other assistance creating the shell script, let us know.

Later…


Tim Kilburn
Jamf Certified Tech
Apple Professional Learning Specialist
Apple Teacher
(with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

> On Sep 14, 2021, at 10:20 PM, Dave Carlson  > wrote:
> 
> I use the Startup Disk Dialog often to switch back and forth between Mojave 
> and Catalina. Is there a way to put a shortcut or alias on my desktop to 
> quickly access this dialog? Or even better a rapid way to switch between the 
> OS options? They are on separate partitions on my hard drive.
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Farfar, Engineer, Oregonian, Woodworker, and Pioneer
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can 
> reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
> 
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/45AD5E9D-6F8F-4E1A-8F0A-9072CB43F478%40gmail.com.


-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.
 
If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com
 
The archives for this list can be searched at:
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.

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list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
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mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

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Re: Direct Access to Startup Disk Dialog in System Preferences

['Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries]

Hi Dave,

To get quickly to Terminal, you can press cmd-shift-u when in the Finder, which 
will take you to the Utilities folder, then press t e r, as in the first three 
letters of the app named Terminal, then press cmd-o to open it.  Alternatively, 
you could place a shortcut to the Terminal on your Dock.  Just use the first 
two steps, then once Terminal is selected, instead of pressing cmd-o press 
cmd-ctrl-shift-t to place the selected item on the Dock.

To answer your second question, as the author notes in their instructions, 
normally, this is a permanent change unless you add some extra text to the 
commands as outlined in the article.

You could create a shell script by typing the commands into a plain text 
document, then saving it with a .sh extension.  Save this .sh document onto 
your Desktop, then simply VO-space on the .sh document to run it.  This would 
automatically run that command, or group of commands, in Terminal essentially 
having a shortcut to do the task for you.

Later…


Tim Kilburn
Jamf Certified Tech
Apple Professional Learning Specialist
Apple Teacher
(with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 9:46 AM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
> 
> Tim,
> Excellent information. Since I’m very new to any terminal stuff, may I ask a 
> couple more questions?
> 
> 1. How do I get to the terminal command line quickly?
> 
> 2. If I do use the pseudo bless command  string to designate my other volume 
> to be the next boot, will that be a permanent change, or will everything go 
> back to normal after a subsequent reboot?
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Oregonian, Engineer, Musician, Farfar, Woodworker, and Pioneer
> 
> On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:12 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Using Terminal is probably your best bet.  See this link for more details:
> 
> http://www.robertopasini.com/index.php/2-uncategorised/556-osx-setting-the-startup-disk-using-terminal
>  
> 
> 
> If you need any other assistance creating the shell script, let us know.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 10:20 PM, Dave Carlson > > wrote:
>> 
>> I use the Startup Disk Dialog often to switch back and forth between Mojave 
>> and Catalina. Is there a way to put a shortcut or alias on my desktop to 
>> quickly access this dialog? Or even better a rapid way to switch between the 
>> OS options? They are on separate partitions on my hard drive.
>> 
>> Dave Carlson
>> Farfar, Engineer, Oregonian, Woodworker, and Pioneer
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>> 
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/45AD5E9D-6F8F-4E1A-8F0A-9072CB43F478%40gmail.com
>>  
>> .
> 
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can 
> reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
> 
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries"

question about low vision apple tools?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi folks,
Asking here given how many   teach and train others.
This is the situation.  One of my heart sisters has nocular degeneration, 
early impact on vision, but starting to become more noticeable.
At the moment she  is starting to get the clipping of letters, not seeing 
those at the ends, 2 instead of 12, that sort of thing.
She also indicates that there is sometimes too much space at the top of 
newspapers and magazines, but I am awaiting more details about how that 
works.
To plan ahead so to speak, she wants to start  incorporating adaptive 
technology into her computer life, both something for low vision, and 
voiceover.
She is running High Sierra, on a desktop, and intends to keep using that 
for as long as possible.
She is in her early 70's, in NYC, and notes that her vision remains 
strong..part of why she wants to start filtering in changes.
My first question is what software resonates with the use of Voiceover for 
individuals managing low vision?

A tool that perhaps may let her use both at the same time?
Is there a good general article outlining Apple's adaptive technology 
products for those in this population?

Thanks,
Karen

Re: Direct Access to Startup Disk Dialog in System Preferences

[Dave Carlson]

Tim,
You are a breath of fresh air and knowledge. Thanks for putting my mind at rest 
on how to do this. I’d never had known about this stuff.

Dave Carlson
Woodworker, Oregonian, Pioneer, Musician, Engineer, and Farfar

On Sep 15, 2021, at 10:08 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
 wrote:

Hi Dave,

To get quickly to Terminal, you can press cmd-shift-u when in the Finder, which 
will take you to the Utilities folder, then press t e r, as in the first three 
letters of the app named Terminal, then press cmd-o to open it.  Alternatively, 
you could place a shortcut to the Terminal on your Dock.  Just use the first 
two steps, then once Terminal is selected, instead of pressing cmd-o press 
cmd-ctrl-shift-t to place the selected item on the Dock.

To answer your second question, as the author notes in their instructions, 
normally, this is a permanent change unless you add some extra text to the 
commands as outlined in the article.

You could create a shell script by typing the commands into a plain text 
document, then saving it with a .sh extension.  Save this .sh document onto 
your Desktop, then simply VO-space on the .sh document to run it.  This would 
automatically run that command, or group of commands, in Terminal essentially 
having a shortcut to do the task for you.

Later…


Tim Kilburn
Jamf Certified Tech
Apple Professional Learning Specialist
Apple Teacher
(with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 9:46 AM, Dave Carlson  > wrote:
> 
> Tim,
> Excellent information. Since I’m very new to any terminal stuff, may I ask a 
> couple more questions?
> 
> 1. How do I get to the terminal command line quickly?
> 
> 2. If I do use the pseudo bless command  string to designate my other volume 
> to be the next boot, will that be a permanent change, or will everything go 
> back to normal after a subsequent reboot?
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Oregonian, Engineer, Musician, Farfar, Woodworker, and Pioneer
> 
> On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:12 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Using Terminal is probably your best bet.  See this link for more details:
> 
> http://www.robertopasini.com/index.php/2-uncategorised/556-osx-setting-the-startup-disk-using-terminal
>  
> 
> 
> If you need any other assistance creating the shell script, let us know.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 10:20 PM, Dave Carlson > > wrote:
>> 
>> I use the Startup Disk Dialog often to switch back and forth between Mojave 
>> and Catalina. Is there a way to put a shortcut or alias on my desktop to 
>> quickly access this dialog? Or even better a rapid way to switch between the 
>> OS options? They are on separate partitions on my hard drive.
>> 
>> Dave Carlson
>> Farfar, Engineer, Oregonian, Woodworker, and Pioneer
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>> 
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/45AD5E9D-6F8F-4E1A-8F0A-9072CB43F478%40gmail.com
>>  
>> .
> 
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can 
> reach Cara at caraqu...@car

Re: Get to top of window on iMac with Magic Mouse and keyboard

[Muhammad Fayed]

Yes, I have interacted with messages table before issuing the command.

Regards,

Mohamed E. Fayed 

> On 15 Sep 2021, at 5:10 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> You need to make sure that you’ve interacted with the messages table, or 
> other area in order for these commands to work.  If you do not interact with 
> the Messages table, then moving to the beginning or end of the table is not a 
> relevant command.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2021, at 4:50 AM, Muhammad Fayed > > wrote:
>> 
>> Another thing please, on my MBP, I assigned it to trackpad commander, when I 
>> use it on Apple Mail and interact with messages section, where I find a list 
>> of conversations and mail I get not the message or thread content,   
>>  it gets to the top message. But not any of what you mentioned does 
>> that!
>> 
>> That makes me a little confused, since the same trackpad commander works as 
>> both behaviors !!!
>> 
>> BY THE WAY, I’m using Mac OS 11.5.2 on MBP and 11.5 on iMac.
>> 
>> Thank you so much,
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Mohamed E. Fayed 
>> 
>>> On 14 Sep 2021, at 3:50 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Actually, you do have the Home/End/Page-Up/Page-Down keys on your keyboard. 
>>>  Add the FN key to the left arrow for Home, to the right arrow key for End, 
>>> to the up arrow for Page-Up and to the down arrow for Page-Down.  That 
>>> being said, you have multiple methods by which to accomplish moving to the 
>>> top of a window.
>>> 
>>> For all these, make sure that you’ve first interacted with the text area of 
>>> the document.
>>> 
>>> 1.  Cmd-up arrow will move you to the top of the document.
>>> 2.  VO-FN-left will move you to the top of the document area.
>>> 
>>> Also, know that using the right arrow instead of the left along with these 
>>> modifiers will move you to the end of the document area.  Adding shift to 
>>> the mix will select from the cursor point to the top or bottom.
>>> 
>>> HTH.
>>> 
>>> Later…
>>> 
>>> Tim Kilburn
>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>>> Apple Teacher
>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>> 
 On Sep 14, 2021, at 3:12 AM, Muhammad Fayed >>> > wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 I want a shortcut to get to the top of a window using Voiceover on iMac. I 
 don’t have trackpad, but Magic Mouse plus keyboard without home/end/page 
 up or page down buttons.
 
 The exact behavior can be performed using VO+h > commands > navigation > 
 go to beginning or end.
 
 An example use case is to get to a top of webpage and not to the close 
 button at the very top of Safari itself.
 
 Thank you so much,
 
 Best,
 
 Mohamed E. Fayed 
 
 -- 
 The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
 Visionaries list.
 
 If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
 if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
 owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
 Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
 at:  mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - 
 you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
 
 
 The archives for this list can be searched at:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
 
 --- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
 "MacVisionaries" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
 email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
 .
 To view this discussion on the web visit 
 https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/A0CCDB57-4A17-4952-B18E-75E4A253DCBB%40gmail.com
  
 .
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>>  
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>  
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
>>> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>>>

Re: Direct Access to Startup Disk Dialog in System Preferences

[Dave Carlson]

Tim,

Not sure I did this right. Should the .sh file have the following line of text:

sudo bless -mount /Volumes/MacCatalinaOS -setBoot
  
Or should it be something else?

When I VO + space on the .sh file it just opens the file.



Dave Carlson
Farfar, Engineer, Oregonian, Woodworker, and Pioneer

On Sep 15, 2021, at 10:08 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
 wrote:

Hi Dave,

To get quickly to Terminal, you can press cmd-shift-u when in the Finder, which 
will take you to the Utilities folder, then press t e r, as in the first three 
letters of the app named Terminal, then press cmd-o to open it.  Alternatively, 
you could place a shortcut to the Terminal on your Dock.  Just use the first 
two steps, then once Terminal is selected, instead of pressing cmd-o press 
cmd-ctrl-shift-t to place the selected item on the Dock.

To answer your second question, as the author notes in their instructions, 
normally, this is a permanent change unless you add some extra text to the 
commands as outlined in the article.

You could create a shell script by typing the commands into a plain text 
document, then saving it with a .sh extension.  Save this .sh document onto 
your Desktop, then simply VO-space on the .sh document to run it.  This would 
automatically run that command, or group of commands, in Terminal essentially 
having a shortcut to do the task for you.

Later…


Tim Kilburn
Jamf Certified Tech
Apple Professional Learning Specialist
Apple Teacher
(with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 9:46 AM, Dave Carlson  > wrote:
> 
> Tim,
> Excellent information. Since I’m very new to any terminal stuff, may I ask a 
> couple more questions?
> 
> 1. How do I get to the terminal command line quickly?
> 
> 2. If I do use the pseudo bless command  string to designate my other volume 
> to be the next boot, will that be a permanent change, or will everything go 
> back to normal after a subsequent reboot?
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Oregonian, Engineer, Musician, Farfar, Woodworker, and Pioneer
> 
> On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:12 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Using Terminal is probably your best bet.  See this link for more details:
> 
> http://www.robertopasini.com/index.php/2-uncategorised/556-osx-setting-the-startup-disk-using-terminal
>  
> 
> 
> If you need any other assistance creating the shell script, let us know.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 10:20 PM, Dave Carlson > > wrote:
>> 
>> I use the Startup Disk Dialog often to switch back and forth between Mojave 
>> and Catalina. Is there a way to put a shortcut or alias on my desktop to 
>> quickly access this dialog? Or even better a rapid way to switch between the 
>> OS options? They are on separate partitions on my hard drive.
>> 
>> Dave Carlson
>> Farfar, Engineer, Oregonian, Woodworker, and Pioneer
>> 
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Re: Get to top of window on iMac with Magic Mouse and keyboard

[Muhammad Fayed]

Yes, I have interacted with messages table before issuing the command.

Regards,

Mohamed E. Fayed 

> On 15 Sep 2021, at 5:10 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> You need to make sure that you’ve interacted with the messages table, or 
> other area in order for these commands to work.  If you do not interact with 
> the Messages table, then moving to the beginning or end of the table is not a 
> relevant command.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2021, at 4:50 AM, Muhammad Fayed > > wrote:
>> 
>> Another thing please, on my MBP, I assigned it to trackpad commander, when I 
>> use it on Apple Mail and interact with messages section, where I find a list 
>> of conversations and mail I get not the message or thread content,   
>>  it gets to the top message. But not any of what you mentioned does 
>> that!
>> 
>> That makes me a little confused, since the same trackpad commander works as 
>> both behaviors !!!
>> 
>> BY THE WAY, I’m using Mac OS 11.5.2 on MBP and 11.5 on iMac.
>> 
>> Thank you so much,
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Mohamed E. Fayed 
>> 
>>> On 14 Sep 2021, at 3:50 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Actually, you do have the Home/End/Page-Up/Page-Down keys on your keyboard. 
>>>  Add the FN key to the left arrow for Home, to the right arrow key for End, 
>>> to the up arrow for Page-Up and to the down arrow for Page-Down.  That 
>>> being said, you have multiple methods by which to accomplish moving to the 
>>> top of a window.
>>> 
>>> For all these, make sure that you’ve first interacted with the text area of 
>>> the document.
>>> 
>>> 1.  Cmd-up arrow will move you to the top of the document.
>>> 2.  VO-FN-left will move you to the top of the document area.
>>> 
>>> Also, know that using the right arrow instead of the left along with these 
>>> modifiers will move you to the end of the document area.  Adding shift to 
>>> the mix will select from the cursor point to the top or bottom.
>>> 
>>> HTH.
>>> 
>>> Later…
>>> 
>>> Tim Kilburn
>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>>> Apple Teacher
>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>> 
 On Sep 14, 2021, at 3:12 AM, Muhammad Fayed >>> > wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 I want a shortcut to get to the top of a window using Voiceover on iMac. I 
 don’t have trackpad, but Magic Mouse plus keyboard without home/end/page 
 up or page down buttons.
 
 The exact behavior can be performed using VO+h > commands > navigation > 
 go to beginning or end.
 
 An example use case is to get to a top of webpage and not to the close 
 button at the very top of Safari itself.
 
 Thank you so much,
 
 Best,
 
 Mohamed E. Fayed 
 
 -- 
 The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
 Visionaries list.
 
 If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
 if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
 owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
 Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
 at:  mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - 
 you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
 
 
 The archives for this list can be searched at:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
 
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 .
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 .
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>>  
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
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>>> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>>>

Re: Get to top of window on iMac with Magic Mouse and keyboard

[Muhammad Fayed]

Ok, it worked. I’ve noticed that on an external keyboard, designed for Mac and 
iOS, the fn key does not always behave as it should, so it made me more 
confusion!

Thank you so much for your help and sorry for any confusion, 

Best,

Mohamed E. Fayed 

> On 15 Sep 2021, at 5:08 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Regarding #2, VO+left or right will move between items one at. Time.  So, for 
> example, in a document if you’ve interacted with the document area, it would 
> move word by word.  In a table, it would move across the row announcing each 
> column’s contents for that row, then move to the next row doing the same 
> thing until the table end.  If in a browser, it will move element by element 
> with varying amounts of items read, all depending on whether you’re in Group 
> or DOM navigation.
> 
> When you add FN to the VO+left or right gesture, it will no longer move in 
> the manner outlined above, it will instead move the VO cursor directly to the 
> beginning or end of the interacted with area.
> 
> Consider that a screen reader can only work when there are specific API hooks 
> for it to grab ahold of.  Each hook is analyzed by the screen reader to 
> determine how to behave.  So, if the developer of an application uses 
> accessible elements within their coding, then the screen reader is able to 
> have specific commands to ignore some elements and go directly to the hook 
> identified as the beginning or end of an item, or group of items.  If these 
> accessible elements are not implemented within the coding of the application, 
> then the screen reader has nothing to hook onto, thus it can’t tell you 
> anything.
> 
> HTH.
> 
> Later…
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Jamf Certified Tech
> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2021, at 4:48 AM, Muhammad Fayed > > wrote:
>> 
>> Thank you so much for your message.
>> 
>> For the first shortcut, yes it works properly.
>> 2. For the second, I don’t understand the point. I try VO+fn+left or right, 
>> it is the same as VO+left or right! Is that what you mean?
>> 
>> Thank you so much for your help,
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Mohamed E. Fayed 
>> 
>>> On 14 Sep 2021, at 3:50 PM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Actually, you do have the Home/End/Page-Up/Page-Down keys on your keyboard. 
>>>  Add the FN key to the left arrow for Home, to the right arrow key for End, 
>>> to the up arrow for Page-Up and to the down arrow for Page-Down.  That 
>>> being said, you have multiple methods by which to accomplish moving to the 
>>> top of a window.
>>> 
>>> For all these, make sure that you’ve first interacted with the text area of 
>>> the document.
>>> 
>>> 1.  Cmd-up arrow will move you to the top of the document.
>>> 2.  VO-FN-left will move you to the top of the document area.
>>> 
>>> Also, know that using the right arrow instead of the left along with these 
>>> modifiers will move you to the end of the document area.  Adding shift to 
>>> the mix will select from the cursor point to the top or bottom.
>>> 
>>> HTH.
>>> 
>>> Later…
>>> 
>>> Tim Kilburn
>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>> Apple Professional Learning Specialist
>>> Apple Teacher
>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>> 
 On Sep 14, 2021, at 3:12 AM, Muhammad Fayed >>> > wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 I want a shortcut to get to the top of a window using Voiceover on iMac. I 
 don’t have trackpad, but Magic Mouse plus keyboard without home/end/page 
 up or page down buttons.
 
 The exact behavior can be performed using VO+h > commands > navigation > 
 go to beginning or end.
 
 An example use case is to get to a top of webpage and not to the close 
 button at the very top of Safari itself.
 
 Thank you so much,
 
 Best,
 
 Mohamed E. Fayed 
 
 -- 
 The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
 Visionaries list.
 
 If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
 if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
 owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
 Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
 at:  mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - 
 you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
 
 
 The archives for this list can be searched at:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
 
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