Re: adsl usb modems
here are the links to this usb driver: http://eciadsl.flashtux.org/download.php http://eciadsl.flashtux.org/eciadsl-usermode-0.6-2.i386.rpm I think it is for this modem: http://eciadsl.flashtux.org/modems.php?lang=fr&modem=17 can anyone confirm that? is this the Rotal modem mentioned in hetz howto? I want a free modem! (free=hinam..., and I know what that means, my box will not be up 24/7...) hetz: in penguin.org there is only a source code. please upload also the rpm (and deb when available). now hear (was kinda funny): i called yes to ask which modems do they give, and the *not* cure chick (which could barly read nor distinguish a pc and a microwave) said: pci and usb. I sayd cool, which companies. so I said again which companies, she said again pci and usb. i tried to explain her that I dont have windows installed so she told me to install xp at that point i asked her to call support and áéåí øàùåï 19 éðåàø 2003, 14:01, Hetz Ben Hamo ëúá: > > I would like to know the status of adsl usb modems, (which ever models > > actcom gives out this days). How mauch are those modems supported, and > > how much are good or not. > > Some of them are supported (I don't know which modems Actcom gives - I'm > talking about the modems which rotal [my employer] gives). > > Those modems are cheap Winmodems, and by writing cheap I mean REALLY cheap > stuff, so if you have even slight of a random noise on the line - they'll > disconnect from the "Merkezet"/"Dislam"/redback, whatever... > > As for support - I posted here some instructions how to use them on linux > (the ALE070, not the ALE130) - check it at http://www.penguin.org.il/~hetz > > Those modems are working really bad (if at all) with OHCI based USB chipset > - if you have: ALI, AMD, VIA, SIS, NEC, or Intel 82371 chipset (you can > check in linux by running: /sbin/lspci | grep USB ) then chances are that > the modem will have tons of disconnections. > > > From what I hear it's not: I would like tto know exactly why, since usb > > seems better then nic+modem (less money...) > > Less money, more troubles - I've been there. A simple NIC costs 40-70 NIS, > depends where you buy it. An Alcatel modem (bezeq stopped importing it) > costs at ebay about $20-50, and you can take my word for it - it worths > every shekel/dollar! > > Also, don't forget that those modems use your CPU for all the work needed > to be done on a dedicated modem like Alcatel, Orkit or Samsung [external] - > so if you have a slow processor, it will only be slower.. > > Thanks, > Hetz To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites whose main category is about computers. Let me suggest a candidate: www.ksp.co.il -- yotam = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
good idea, thugh thats mean 99% of the sites out there :( -- Canaan Surfing Ltd. Internet Service Providers Ben-Nes Michael - Manager Tel: 972-4-6991122 Fax: 972-4-6990098 http://sites.canaan.co.il -- - Original Message - From: "Yotam Medini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 11:14 AM Subject: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers > > Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting > Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites > whose main category is about computers. > > Let me suggest a candidate: > >www.ksp.co.il > > -- yotam > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
I think this should be done very carefully. A way to do so (if someone picks the glove and decide to build and maintain such a list) is just like in spamcop.net about Open relays. The site should rationally explain why it is good to support also non Windows and non-IE browsers, what are the relevant standards, how to make sure that the site is indeed compatible with other browser (even without using those browsers), etc. The list should be checked daily (or other period of time), and updated once a site starts supporting non-IE browsers. That way we will do a difference. Just saying "this site is bad" is not productive, and might result in legal measures. On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Yotam Medini wrote: > > Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting > Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites > whose main category is about computers. > > Let me suggest a candidate: > >www.ksp.co.il > > -- yotam > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Man is the only animal that blushes--or has reason to." --- Mark Twain Spammers: http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~orrd/spam.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tuesday 21 January 2003 11:14, Yotam Medini wrote: 1) sending once is enough. 2) who are you ? 3) if you want that kind of list, create it first ! then ask for help maintaining \ hosting it. tal. > Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting > Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites > whose main category is about computers. > > Let me suggest a candidate: > >www.ksp.co.il > > -- yotam > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Orr Dunkelman wrote: > I think this should be done very carefully. I agree with the notes of Orr and would like to add a few more. For each reported site there should be a short explanation in what way is it broken and possibly a contact name who reported the problem. As the broken site changes it should remain in the list and once the issue gets fixed it should be noted on the list of broken sites, just like in a bug tracking system. This will let us see a progress. If there is one. The owner/webmaster of the affected sites should also be contacted and let him/her know about the problem and about the report. Though this needs to be done even more carefully and with some thought the one who reported the problem can also offer his/her help to fix that specific problem. So we won't only complain but will be creative and not only with the generic explanation but with specific help. Of course for this help you have the full right to charge money. regards Gabor = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Yotam Medini wrote: > > Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting > Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites > whose main category is about computers. > > Let me suggest a candidate: > >www.ksp.co.il Have a look at http://mozilla.org.il/evangel.shtml -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Maybe create a whitelist instead? In each category (news, finance, bank, etc.) label the best site(s) in the category and the shortcomings (if any) with them. That way, people might start making decisions based on the list and site owners might start getting concerned. This can be done in addition to the blacklisting of extremely bad sites (like those who block non-IE browsers or crash Mozilla). Alon On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Gabor Szabo wrote: > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Orr Dunkelman wrote: > > > I think this should be done very carefully. > > I agree with the notes of Orr and would like to add a few more. > > For each reported site there should be a short explanation in what way > is it broken and possibly a contact name who reported the problem. > > As the broken site changes it should remain in the list and once the issue > gets fixed it should be noted on the list of broken sites, just like in a > bug tracking system. > > This will let us see a progress. If there is one. > > The owner/webmaster of the affected sites should also be contacted > and let him/her know about the problem and about the report. > > Though this needs to be done even more carefully and with some thought > the one who reported the problem can also offer his/her help to fix that > specific problem. So we won't only complain but will be creative and not > only with the generic explanation but with specific help. > Of course for this help you have the full right to charge money. > > > regards >Gabor > > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- May you have warm words on a cold evening, a full mooon on a dark night, and a smooth road all the way to your door. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Alon Altman wrote: > > Maybe create a whitelist instead? > > In each category (news, finance, bank, etc.) label the best site(s) in the > category and the shortcomings (if any) with them. That way, people might > start making decisions based on the list and site owners might start getting > concerned. > > This can be done in addition to the blacklisting of extremely bad sites > (like those who block non-IE browsers or crash Mozilla). > Thinking it about a bit more I disagree with the term 'blacklisting'. I'd prefer the bug reporting notion. Gabor ps. I have started to overtake a project which is nearly finished. It is using a lot of javascript and - though I have not tested it yet - I am nearly sure it won't work in a lot of browsers except IE 6.0 The customer at this point cannot afford to rewrite the site, maybe later once he can show his sponsors that the site is up and running. So far I though that we can open the site like this or we can change the scripts that for browsers it is known that it does not work it will redirect to a splash page saying it cannot work with this browser. What should I do ? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Yotam Medini wrote: > > Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting > Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites > whose main category is about computers. > > Let me suggest a candidate: > >www.ksp.co.il > Seems to work in Mozila 1.3a. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- "To YOU I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition." -- Woody Allen = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
And how will that help us to achieve anything, if at all? "Black listing" a site will most likely publish it (wait until your list is found in some newspaper..), and will not help with reducing the problem. The opposite is the truth - it may increase hateness, and mind-blocking. Do you think that the webmasters and the owners of the site will care? As long as it brings them 90% of the population (sad, but true), they won't (necessarily) care much about your list. Moreover, you will have to notice this: 1) You will have to prove that for a specific site - ANY browser, from ANY version which exists over there in Linux cannot see the site properly. 2) You will need to update your list whenever there's a change. Nevertheless, when there's a change (to Linux) it can be changed back sometime (into not supporting Linux, intentionally or not) for some reason, vice versa. 3) Vicious owners can sue you for some kind of "hotzaat diba", just because you "black list" them. Nobody said that you wouldn't win (about it not being "hotzaat diba"), but I am not sure that you would want that headache. 4) You won't contribute eliminating the problem. I believe that I have already mentioned that. Instead, you can do the following: 1) Be nice, and politely tell them that their site doesn't support Linux (actually, it's not true. It doesn't support the browers which *you* have *checked*, with your specific software and architecture installed). 2) Suggest to help them to make their site compatible with Linux. If they are not going to care about this, you will have to do that free of charge. Once again - your responsibility. And I am not sure that you would like to do that free of charge. 3) Here is an idea: Create a group of "Windows-to-Linux technicians", who will help in converting (and improving), both for free and for money (you can even earn from it, if you do it the right way). Make this group professional, and don't call them "missioners" or "revolutionists". Just make a team which its purpose is to do that work, and that work only. 4) Don't black-list anybody. Nobody owes you anything and nobody has to satisfy your OS you're working on (take this in a good spirit :). Love the problem.. don't hate it. Just something to think about. :) Adir. On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Yotam Medini wrote: > > Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting > Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites > whose main category is about computers. > > Let me suggest a candidate: > >www.ksp.co.il > > -- yotam > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Title: RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers Yap, and let's establish "black list" of : - applications, that can not be run in text mode. - OSs that can not be booted from only diskette - users, that doesn't know to work with keyboard - something else? Somebody run 2.4 with Gnome or KDE on 286 or 386? No? so what is the problem to upgrade to Mozilla 1.x ? > -Original Message- > From: Yotam Medini [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 11:14 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers > > > > Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting > Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites > whose main category is about computers. > > Let me suggest a candidate: > > www.ksp.co.il > > -- yotam > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
Re: Samsung ADSL modems
On Monday, Jan 20, 2003, at 19:30 Asia/Jerusalem, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: I had on the contrary things - that Bezeq decided to stop ordering Alcatel modems. Any idea why? Do they have other external ethernet modems to replace it? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Samsung ADSL modems
> Any idea why? Do they have other external ethernet modems to replace it? Why? to move from PPPoA to PPPoE. replacement: Samsung Ethernet modem (300IL) - which got mixed results regarding long term connections... Thanks, Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] is Linus really a traitor?
Quoting Oleg Goldshmidt, from the post of Wed, 15 Jan: > > "[Transmeta] claims its approach offers increased security for wireless > computing, protects sensitive data, "deters intellectual property > theft" (read Digital Rights Management (DRM) Inside) and delivers > tamper-resistant, x86 storage environments." First off Linus is into the microcode compiler, not into hardware design (if I remember correctly). he DOES try to steer away from politics, and that CAN be a problem. it's one thing to "sit on the fence" on some issues, but it's an entirely different issue to belittle the opinions of others. As RMS once mentioned hen he recieved the "Linus Torvals Award", that it's like the Rebel fleet getting the Han Solo award. as for him being a traitor - as RMS puts it, he's like the national printers' association - any license is respected and allowed to live along the others, and prefering one product or technology on the other should be done according to technical standards, rather than licensing. signing an NDA and working with "problematic" licenses is not concern. RMS on the other hand has stated that he is more interested in freedom than advancing technology or creativity. I'm somewhere in the middle between the two, as I believe technology SHOULD move ahead AND remain free. RMS agrees on that, as I heard him answer at the IBM talk that it's ok for id software to sell propriatary code which they intend to release as free at a later time - "but not too late so it does not become obsolete and doesn't help people anymore once it's published". The problem that the "Treacherous Computing" is that it will stop you from running free software on proprietary OS (which many people do), in fact it would probably stop you from running many types of freewares and sharewares on Windows if their authors can't afford the signing procedure and enter the selective, closed circle of "trusted software", which means paying a higher "Microsoft tax" may actually deter people from publishing software in general, not to mention free software. Now Vadik, if you still think Treacherous Computing is not dangerous, just wait and see how it will effect you, even in your "protected" BSD world... I don't think Linus is a traitor, he just cares too little about freedom, and I hope DRM/Paladium-like features never make it into the main kernel (though I have no doubt that if the hardware platform will succeed on MS, some heartless hardware vendor may actually offer a kernel tree with such features). -- Apropos of nothing Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal. msg25231/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Gabor Szabo wrote: > ps. I have started to overtake a project which is nearly finished. > It is using a lot of javascript and - though I have not tested it yet - > I am nearly sure it won't work in a lot of browsers except IE 6.0 > > The customer at this point cannot afford to rewrite the site, maybe later > once he can show his sponsors that the site is up and running. > > So far I though that we can open the site like this or we can change the > scripts that for browsers it is known that it does not work it will redirect > to a splash page saying it cannot work with this browser. > > What should I do ? If you can, leave the project. Otherwise, try to create a ultra-clean no-javascript text-only version of the page which will work on all browsers. Then, add a link between the two sites while defaulting based on HTTP browser detection. Later - rewrite the site based on standards. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Do not meddle in the affairs of troff, for it is subtle and quick to anger. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Title: RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers > > Later - rewrite the site based on standards. > Where can I read about those standards? AFAIK, NS4 and NS6 has different DOM (I do not mention about DOM of other browsers;-), what standards say about it? Using CSS is it in standard? Using XML files with Browser-side translation is in standard? What is _javascript_ version is standard? I'm adore lynx. Am I fit into standards? I have WAP-enabled mobile, should all web sites to sag for me? Is there definition of statistical norm that works in our life: majority is norm. If you're not like the Majority - you are deviation. The Majority dictating standards. So, standards accepted 7 years ago, are they relevant today for new majority?
Re: OT: Revolution Vs Reform
Guy Baruch wrote: I think rms and the FSF guys are revolutionaries, while OS guys are reformers. Hmm, depends what is a "revolutionary". Either a) an author/follower/supporter of a revolutionary idea/theory or b) a person who implements an idea by "revolutionary" (read here: brute force, terror,...) methods I personally believe that only the first definition is justified. People from the second type should be called by their proper name: extremists. However, since extremists of all flavours (mostly from red to brown, with some amount of green added lately) tend to call themselves "revolutionaries", the term became ambiguous in the XX century. A revolutionary look at the defects of the current system (in this case, potential exploit of proprietary software in terms of human freedom ) and decides to destroy and rebuild (in this case, abolish _ALL_ proprietary information filters). It seems you mix the two (a and b) together. As a matter of the fact, I can't find a single sentence written by RMS where he suggests to destroy anything - please correct me if I'm wrong. IMO, RMS is a revolutionary of type a). There is nothing wrong in a revolutionary idea/theory. It can be either valid or wrong; it's practice which proves (or doesn't) validity of a theory. Special/general relativity or the quantum theory were revolutionary ideas. Einshtein/Schrodinger/Heisenberg/... were revolutionaries of type a). It's practice that proved these ideas were correct, although only a small handful of people in the scientific community accepted them initially. But: nobody ever suggested to replace at once _all_ classical formulae with their quantum counterparts. There are (and always will be) areas where Newtonian mechanics is completely adequate. On the other hand, as science/technology progresses, the need for using quantum/relativistic calculations increases. And this is ok and doesn't disturb anyone; this is a normal way of adoption of _revolutionary_ ideas in science: in the _evolutionary_ way. And this IMO should be the case in all other areas, including software development and (especially) social progress. In some cases the system is so bad, the "potential difference" so great, that a revolution must happen no matter what your temper is. Hmm, isn't it a rephrase of the familiar "the ends justify the means" so liked by extremists? ;-) Regards, Evgeny = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Boulgakov Andrei wrote: > > > > Later - rewrite the site based on standards. > > > Where can I read about those standards? http://www.w3.org/ > AFAIK, NS4 and NS6 has different DOM (I do not mention about DOM of other > browsers;-), what standards say about it? NS4 is one of least standards-complaint browsers available. The DOM 2 standard[1] specifies exactly what should be. > Using CSS is it in standard? Yes, and is recommended by the W3C[2]. > Using XML files with Browser-side translation is in standard? Yes, XML and XHTML[3] are recommendations of the W3C. > What is JavaScript version is standard? ECMAScript, according to standard ECMA-262[4] > I'm adore lynx. Am I fit into standards? You've got it the other way around. Lynx renders standard-compliant and accessible sites legibly, because the sites were designed that way. > I have WAP-enabled mobile, should all web sites to sag for me? A correctly-written site could be visually pleasing and interactive on an advanced browser, and still remain easily readable on a WAP-enabled cell phone. The W3C site is an example of this. > Is there definition of statistical norm that works in our life: majority is > norm. If you're not like the Majority - you are deviation. The Majority > dictating standards. So, standards accepted 7 years ago, are they relevant > today for new majority? New standards are written all the time, usually with much emphasis on backwards-compatibility. Majority changes over time, amd implementations change even between different browser versions. The only way to be sure your site will work in the future without rewriting is to write to standards. Alon Links: [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/ [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/ [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ [4] http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/STAND/ECMA-262.HTM -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- A transistor protected by a fast-acting fuse will protect the fuse by blowing first. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
> Where can I read about those standards? the Web Standards Project could be a good place -- http://www.webstandards.org/ > AFAIK, NS4 and NS6 has different DOM (I do not mention about DOM of other browsers;-), > what standards say about it? IMO if you're developing a new site you should conform to *current standards* -- there's no logic in wasting time on compatibility with NS4's DOM (which, from my bad, most recent experience with it buggy as hell anyway) -- write your site according to standards such as XML, HTML, XHTML, CSS, ECMAScript and DOM Level 1. All of these provide you with enough tools to do anything you want to in a web site. > Using CSS is it in standard? You should use W3C's CSS Level-1 or higher standard. > Using XML files with Browser-side translation is in standard? XML itself is a standard. Client-side parsing depends on the browser. I don't know if Netscape 7 has a client-side XML/XSL parsers with it. Most of the time you can get off with using server-side transforming. You should set a version number from which you want your site to support -- Netscape 6 or 7 & MSIE 5 would be a good, logical choice. > What is JavaScript version is standard? The standardized version of JavaScript is ECMAScript 262. > I'm adore lynx. Am I fit into standards? Lynx supports only HTML. I use it too on one of my boxes, and I like using it. Surprisingly enough it handles most sites with no big problems. As long as there's a way to navigate through your site without seeing the pictures (adding an "ALT" description will do) and without using client-side scripting, the site could be used basically with Lynx. > The Majority dictating standards. So, standards accepted 7 years ago, are they > relevant today for new majority? What standards? HTML -- yes. CSS -- yes. Netscape 4's DOM - now. MSIE4's DOM - no. The later two were never standards -- they were competing technologies, from which the DOM level 1 standard was born. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Title: RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers Very interesting. Did you try to enter to w3c with IE, M1.x and NS4x? Tell me about ONE customer, that publish else than "My home page", that will pay for such inconsistency of UI. > -Original Message- > From: Alon Altman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 3:38 PM > To: Boulgakov Andrei > Subject: RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers > > > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Boulgakov Andrei wrote: > > > > > > Later - rewrite the site based on standards. > > > > > Where can I read about those standards? > > http://www.w3.org/ > > > AFAIK, NS4 and NS6 has different DOM (I do not mention > about DOM of other > > browsers;-), what standards say about it? > > NS4 is one of least standards-complaint browsers available. > The DOM 2 > standard[1] specifies exactly what should be. > > > Using CSS is it in standard? > > Yes, and is recommended by the W3C[2]. > > > Using XML files with Browser-side translation is in standard? > > Yes, XML and XHTML[3] are recommendations of the W3C. > > > What is _javascript_ version is standard? > > ECMAScript, according to standard ECMA-262[4] > > > I'm adore lynx. Am I fit into standards? > > You've got it the other way around. Lynx renders > standard-compliant and > accessible sites legibly, because the sites were designed that way. > > > I have WAP-enabled mobile, should all web sites to sag for me? > > A correctly-written site could be visually pleasing and > interactive on an > advanced browser, and still remain easily readable on a > WAP-enabled cell > phone. The W3C site is an example of this. > > > Is there definition of statistical norm that works in our > life: majority is > > norm. If you're not like the Majority - you are deviation. > The Majority > > dictating standards. So, standards accepted 7 years ago, > are they relevant > > today for new majority? > > New standards are written all the time, usually with much > emphasis on > backwards-compatibility. Majority changes over time, amd > implementations > change even between different browser versions. The only way > to be sure your > site will work in the future without rewriting is to write to > standards. > > Alon > > Links: > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/ > [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/ > [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ > [4] http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/STAND/ECMA-262.HTM > > -- > This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 > The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise > nonexistent :) > -- > > -=[ Random Fortune ]=- > A transistor protected by a fast-acting fuse will protect the fuse by > blowing first. >
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Title: RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers I'm agree with you. all my question were to bring an opinion as yours ( and as mine); most of complains are: "Site doesn't support Linux" (it is not correct, anyway. Site can not support browser) are the complains of NS4 users. I never seen sites using VbScript client-side, bandwith of today permits show great web sites, companies can't pay big money for support NS3,4, a lot of sites, that can not be reached from non-IE browser are operable with NS6+, Mz1+, SO, imho, it is worth to upgrade browser and as Ms sad in Win installation: "sit back and relax". > -Original Message- > From: Alon Weinstein [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 3:46 PM > To: 'Linux-IL' > Subject: RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers > > > > Where can I read about those standards? > > the Web Standards Project could be a good place -- > http://www.webstandards.org/ > > > AFAIK, NS4 and NS6 has different DOM (I do not mention about DOM of > other browsers;-), > what standards say about it? > > IMO if you're developing a new site you should conform to *current > standards* -- there's no logic in wasting time on compatibility with > NS4's DOM (which, from my bad, most recent experience with it buggy as > hell anyway) -- write your site according to standards such as XML, > HTML, XHTML, CSS, ECMAScript and DOM Level 1. All of these provide you > with enough tools to do anything you want to in a web site. > > > Using CSS is it in standard? > > You should use W3C's CSS Level-1 or higher standard. > > > Using XML files with Browser-side translation is in standard? > > XML itself is a standard. Client-side parsing depends on the > browser. I > don't know if Netscape 7 has a client-side XML/XSL parsers > with it. Most > of the time you can get off with using server-side transforming. You > should set a version number from which you want your site to > support -- > Netscape 6 or 7 & MSIE 5 would be a good, logical choice. > > > What is _javascript_ version is standard? > > The standardized version of _javascript_ is ECMAScript 262. > > > I'm adore lynx. Am I fit into standards? > > Lynx supports only HTML. I use it too on one of my boxes, and I like > using it. Surprisingly enough it handles most sites with no big > problems. As long as there's a way to navigate through your > site without > seeing the pictures (adding an "ALT" description will do) and without > using client-side scripting, the site could be used basically > with Lynx. > > > The Majority dictating standards. So, standards accepted 7 > years ago, > are they > > relevant today for new majority? > > What standards? HTML -- yes. CSS -- yes. Netscape 4's DOM - > now. MSIE4's > DOM - no. The later two were never standards -- they were competing > technologies, from which the DOM level 1 standard was born. > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
> Very interesting. Did you try to enter to w3c with IE, M1.x and NS4x? Tell me about >ONE customer, that publish else than "My home page", that will pay for such inconsistency of UI. Again -- NS4 is not standards compliant. I went to w3c's site with IE5.0, Netscape 7 & Netscape 4.7. It looks the same on IE & NS7 (which *are* standards compliant), but not on NS4 -- keeping to the latest standards means making sure the site will look as designed on all the browsers that support these standards *and* that it will still be usable under older browsers, which had their own proprietary "standards". The whole idea is the lessen the cost of web development by developing one site. By trying to support browsers such as NS4 (and IE4 for that matter) you develop different sites for different browsers again - so you gained nothing. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
> I'm agree with you. all my question were to bring an opinion as yours ( and as mine); most of complains are: "Site >doesn't support Linux" (it is not correct, anyway. Site can not support browser) are the complains of NS4 users. I never seen sites using VbScript client-side, bandwith of today permits show great web sites, companies can't pay big money for support NS3,4 Just to make it clear -- I don't think anyone who was saying the "a site doesn't support linux" meant "a site doesn't support Netscape 3/4" -- it means the site relies on non-standard features available on IE, which is unavailable for Linux. > a lot of sites, that can not be reached from non-IE browser are operable with NS6+, Mz1+, If a site cannot be reached from non-IE browser it's poorly-built. A standarts-compliant site should work with any browser. It should even need to check for the browser's maker. > SO, imho, it is worth to upgrade browser and as Ms sad in Win installation: "sit back and relax". Or as Red Hat says it their installation "Let's all go and bring ourselves a snack!" :-) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Title: RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers > means the site relies on non-standard features available on > IE, which is > unavailable for Linux. I never seen such public sites, only corporate intranet. > Or as Red Hat says it their installation "Let's all go and bring > ourselves a snack!" :-) Cool. Going to bring snack you pass comp with W. and it asks with wife's ton: "Where do you go today?"
Re: linux at schools
Quoting Ely Levy, from the post of Sun, 19 Jan: > http://www.ofset.org/index.html > is a project to get free software into school, > > comments on the chance of it to help israel schools would be apprisiated, > a lot of programs there are usuall ones like apache and a2ps > but some others are educational related. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2002/debian-devel-announce-200209/msg1.html the main obstacle would be to get Matakh, Compedia, Edunetics and a few others to port 5-10-15 year-old software that is intensively DOS and Novell and Windows-specific, but is still sold to schools for nice round sums and need require no more investment to keep making money. -- Mystic on a mountain Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal. msg25243/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: Revolution Vs Reform
Quoth Evgeny Stambulchik on Tue, Jan 21, 2003: > Hmm, depends what is a "revolutionary". Either > > a) an author/follower/supporter of a revolutionary idea/theory > > or > > b) a person who implements an idea by "revolutionary" (read here: brute > force, terror,...) methods > > I personally believe that only the first definition is justified. People > from the second type should be called by their proper name: extremists. > However, since extremists of all flavours (mostly from red to brown, with > some amount of green added lately) tend to call themselves > "revolutionaries", the term became ambiguous in the XX century. Which one of these definitions does Lenin fall under? Vadik. -- The Consultant's Curse: When the customer has beaten upon you long enough, give him what he asks for, instead of what he needs. This is very strong medicine, and is normally only required once. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Samsung ADSL modems
On Tuesday 21 January 2003 14:22, you wrote: > > Any idea why? Do they have other external ethernet modems to replace it? > > Why? to move from PPPoA to PPPoE. Alcatel Modem may be configured for PPPoE . > > replacement: Samsung Ethernet modem (300IL) - which got mixed results > regarding long term connections... > > Thanks, > Hetz > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Dr. Daniel Arbel[EMAIL PROTECTED] Network Manager tel: 972-4-8294992 Technion Computer Centerfax: 972-4-8222872 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: linux at schools
Ira Abramov wrote: Quoting Ely Levy, from the post of Sun, 19 Jan: http://www.ofset.org/index.html is a project to get free software into school, comments on the chance of it to help israel schools would be apprisiated, a lot of programs there are usuall ones like apache and a2ps but some others are educational related. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2002/debian-devel-announce-200209/msg1.html the main obstacle would be to get Matakh, Compedia, Edunetics and a few others to port 5-10-15 year-old software that is intensively DOS and Novell and Windows-specific, but is still sold to schools for nice round sums and need require no more investment to keep making money. Wouldn't an appliction specific Wine effort eliminate this problem? Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
> If a site cannot be reached from non-IE browser it's poorly-built. A > standarts-compliant site should work with any browser. It should even > need to check for the browser's maker. You mean that a standards-compliant site should NOT check the browser maker. According to standards, the only reason to check the browser is to add special non-standard support for legacy browsers (such as NS4). There are ways to bypass even this using @import and other CSS techniques. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Everything is possible. Pass the word. -- Rita Mae Brown, "Six of One" = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
It > should even > > need to check for the browser's maker. > > You mean that a standards-compliant site should NOT check > the browser maker. Oops, the "'nt" slipped away from the "should" :-) ofcourse that's what I was trying to say. Checking for browser maker is problematic -- you can never be sure you're checking every browser available, as new browsers come here and there. Right now to do that you need to check for mozilla, netscape, ie, konquerer, galeon, chimera, safari (latest from apple), opera, omniweb, and I probably missed a few. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
During RMS talk the feeling of love and help to your community was one of the main issues. Abir is right - stop to hate and start to love. More of that since most of the users are using IE and most of the sites were done to get business profit, the open source (and especially Mozilla) users are no more than freaks that want to change the world. Blacklist will not hurt most of the companies at all. The only organizations that their appearance on Mozilla list might be in contradiction to their spirit are the Universities and other academic institutes. I don't care about government sites, since they were intended for "most of the people". The governmental sites would be a problem only of this would be the only way to get a specific service. As far as I can see there are two main ways to activate (where the second option can be further split): 1. The peaceful way that Abir suggested. And I totally support the idea of group of that should be called: "Proprietary to Open-Source technicians" (not Windows to Linux). Windows is fine. It has billion of users around the world. Do not fight them - just show alternatives. 2a. Activism against the other ideas. This has to do with a lot of hate. The black-lists and white lists, or lists at all are bad categorization. The lists would do nothing since most if the computer users want to use the software and do not care about the ideology. Does anyone buy software from companies because they donate to world fare founds, encourage sports or donate to education? 2b. Bad activism (and sometime illegal) against ideas. I include in this section partial group users that might do bad things just to make the media to hear them or to impose their opinions. Those users might crack into attack sites and do any other electronic punk. The punk was modern long ago and it has gone. Please do not do it - This is not what the GNU or Linux is about. Remember that GNU is mainly about offering alternatives; give the user the possibility to choose. Wrong free decision is better than totalitarian good decision. If MS offers users the ability to use technology that is cool. That is better than make users to be afraid of technology. I think the rest of ideas about the technical issues (as which standard impose what...) are irrelevant to the main idea. The standards are always imposed by the group that has maximum influence. It can be done by standard organizations, academic (so called) institutes, de-facto standards or any other way. My opinion is: explain me what are the choices and let me choose by myself. Good changes might last long time, we should just have the right spirit. In order to make huge mistakes no help is needed :-) Eddie > -Original Message- > From: Adir Abraham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 14:37 > To: Yotam Medini > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers > > And how will that help us to achieve anything, if at all? "Black listing" > a site will most likely publish it (wait until your list is found in some > newspaper..), and will not help with reducing the problem. The opposite > is the truth - it may increase hateness, and mind-blocking. > > Do you think that the webmasters and the owners of the site will care? As > long > as it brings them 90% of the population (sad, but true), they won't > (necessarily) care much about your list. > > Moreover, you will have to notice this: > > 1) You will have to prove that for a specific site - ANY browser, from ANY > version which exists over there in Linux cannot see the site properly. > > 2) You will need to update your list whenever there's a change. > Nevertheless, when there's a change (to Linux) it can be changed back > sometime (into not supporting Linux, intentionally or not) for some > reason, vice versa. > > 3) Vicious owners can sue you for some kind of "hotzaat diba", just > because you "black list" them. Nobody said that you wouldn't win (about it > not being "hotzaat diba"), but I am not sure that you would want that > headache. > > 4) You won't contribute eliminating the problem. I believe that I have > already mentioned that. > > Instead, you can do the following: > > 1) Be nice, and politely tell them that their site doesn't support Linux > (actually, it's not true. It doesn't support the browers which *you* have > *checked*, with your specific software and architecture installed). > > 2) Suggest to help them to make their site compatible with Linux. If they > are not going to care about this, you will have to do that free of charge. > Once again - your responsibility. And I am not sure that you would like to > do that free of charge. > > 3) Here is an idea: Create a group of "Windows-to-Linux technicians", > who will help in converting (and improving), both for free and
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Alon Altman wrote: > > If a site cannot be reached from non-IE browser it's poorly-built. A > > standarts-compliant site should work with any browser. It should even > > need to check for the browser's maker. > > You mean that a standards-compliant site should NOT check the browser > maker. According to standards, the only reason to check the browser is to > add special non-standard support for legacy browsers (such as NS4). There > are ways to bypass even this using @import and other CSS techniques. Standard-compliant site builders may have been able to fully use such an approach has there been fully-standard-compliant browsers. But the current browsers still have many little bugs that have to be worked aroundif your code stumbles accross one of them. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A response to Nadav's message
Quoting Official Flamer/Cabal NON-Leader, from the post of Sun, 19 Jan: > I submit that Martin Luther King's idea of equality, Malcolm X's idea of > equality and John Doe's idea of equality were not the same. I also > submit that the difference between a black and a white in 'ole south was > so pronounced that "equality" had tangible advantages. Freedom, in my > opinion, was and is (wrongly) equated with equality. Forced equality is indeed taking away quite a few freedoms from individuals. I think what RMS refers to is equality of opportunities, which is itself a pretty integral part of the idea of Freedom, afterall. -- Bugfix release Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal. msg25251/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Alon Altman wrote: > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Gabor Szabo wrote: > > > ps. I have started to overtake a project which is nearly finished. > > It is using a lot of javascript and - though I have not tested it yet - > > I am nearly sure it won't work in a lot of browsers except IE 6.0 > > > > > > What should I do ? > > If you can, leave the project. So shall I leave it so when they finally release it we can fingerpoint and say it does not work in Mozilla ? No way. This is the opportunity to educate and make the difference. > Otherwise, try to create a ultra-clean > no-javascript text-only version of the page which will work on all browsers. > Then, add a link between the two sites while defaulting based on HTTP > browser detection. > > Later - rewrite the site based on standards. > this is a better suggesttion and this brings me back to a previous thread on how to check a site with various browsers in reasonable cost and time. Note that even if you build standard based site you still need to test but it will be probably faster and you will find less problems. One would hope. Gabor = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fw: install rh 7.3 on big hd with discwizard
On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 01:16:01PM +0200, Freiman wrote: > > > > Hello! > I bought a new hd from seagate. it's too big for my bios (40 gb), so i install it >with discwizard. i do th partition with discwizard, and start to install rh 7.3. the >installer recognize the full size of hd, and the partition that i did. but when it >start wrote the boot image to the hd. it said that i have problem with disk space. > thank you > moti The only advise I can give is to look on the net for documentation. Perhaps the LDP Large Disk Howto? Maybe you want to upgrade your bios? However I am not taking any responsibility in case the upgrade will fail. Hope it somehow help. -- Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:03:39 +0200 (IST) Alon Altman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This can be done in addition to the blacklisting of extremely bad sites > (like those who block non-IE browsers or crash Mozilla). Sorry, if Mozilla *crashes* it's definitely a Mozilla bug. So these specific sites should be commended for helping debug Mozilla! Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron "... one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs." -- Robert Firth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Alon Altman wrote: If a site cannot be reached from non-IE browser it's poorly-built. A standarts-compliant site should work with any browser. It should even need to check for the browser's maker. You mean that a standards-compliant site should NOT check the browser maker. According to standards, the only reason to check the browser is to add special non-standard support for legacy browsers (such as NS4). There are ways to bypass even this using @import and other CSS techniques. Standard-compliant site builders may have been able to fully use such an approach has there been fully-standard-compliant browsers. But the current browsers still have many little bugs that have to be worked aroundif your code stumbles accross one of them. Fine, then fall back to the standard in case you don't recognize the browser. Any problems hereafter are the client's fault. This way your work load decreases as the browsers mature. Besides, if you designed your site around the standards, and then made sucrifices because a given browser was not standard complient, you are probably not far from the standard anyways. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
Hi, First of all, my name is Adir, not Abir ;-) Now to clarify: On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Eddie Aronovich wrote: > 1. The peaceful way that Abir suggested. And I totally support the idea of > group of that should be called: "Proprietary to Open-Source technicians" > (not Windows to Linux). Windows is fine. It has billion of users around the > world. Do not fight them - just show alternatives. I wasn't talking necessarily about switching OS's, but as you mentioned - to show alternatives, and to add support for both OS's. There may be some companies or others, who might want to get that support, but don't know how (because they use ASP, for instance) - that's where such a technicians group can help - in the wide meaning of the word. Just show them that with what they have, they can do more. And if it involves switching to Linux, that's even better, but this is not what such a group should be all about. > > 2a. Activism against the other ideas. This has to do with a lot of hate. The Activism against other ideas is bad. Unfortunately, some of us really do it, and actually contradict what GNU and "free" is all about. > > 2b. Bad activism (and sometime illegal) against ideas. I include in this [snipped] > and it has gone. Please do not do it - This is not what the GNU or Linux is > about. Correct. Once again, I know some who do like to do it. Honestly, it makes me wonder what they like more (Linux or cracking). Such a thing only gives a bad reputation, and shows a childish behavior (if this is really a way of someone to show how or why Linux is better). The "Windows-Linux problem" has been running for a long time, and slowly but carefully people start to realize that there's a real alternative. It will take more time until it achieves at least the 50%-50% (users of Linux and Windows). The subject itself is very touchy. Almost any person whom I talk with about Linux, and knows something about it, reminds me about "the war" that exists between the two OS's. By the way, some of my friends who saw me in the general CS farm of the Technion, wanted to get my attention as I hadn't seen them. Do you know how they tried to get me? they didn't call my name, but called me "Micro$oft sucks" :) (as a joke, by the way.. not because they really think so). Why do I hear all that (and I guess not only me)? because many of those conversations, actually do look like a war. Some of you are very excited, and sometimes you take it to different, wrong directions, such as hate and blacklists. Only adding of support to Linux (Hebrew support, DirectX, and more. And I don't say that this support doesn't exist!), will make people thinking. It has to be given by drops, and not by shots. The browsers problem is only one problem among many, that has to be treated in a wise way. Wise Way (in my opinion) is: 1) Adding (suggesting) support from a "non compatible software" to Linux (change html files and other files, so they can match at least one Linux browser). 2) Showing alternatives, while they are 100% working. 3) If an alternative is welcome, be part of the team that does the blessed work. 4) Let them be happy, and let them advertise it! I haven't seen any "chozer betshuva" in this list yet. I've been wondering why. 5) Suggest them "the whole package" (switching completely to Linux), giving one-to-one alternative solutions to what they need, to what they need. Bottom line - they will like the alternatives only if it does a *better* job (and not because of this: "hey, you can do the same thing also in Linux". That is NOT a reason to switch an OS, in my opinion). 6) If they are happy with "a different OS" - let them be so (and be happy for them too. After all, you did succeed to spread the word, and people did listen to you). Those are only general ideas ofcourse. The real question is when (the right timing) and how (attitude) to do it. Best regards, Adir. > > Eddie > > > -Original Message- > > From: Adir Abraham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 14:37 > > To: Yotam Medini > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers > > > > And how will that help us to achieve anything, if at all? "Black listing" > > a site will most likely publish it (wait until your list is found in some > > newspaper..), and will not help with reducing the problem. The opposite > > is the truth - it may increase hateness, and mind-blocking. > > > > Do you think that the webmasters and the owners of the site will care? As > > long > > as it brings them 90% of the population (sad, but true), they won't > > (necessarily) care much about your list. > > > > Moreover, you will have to notice this: > > > > 1) You will have to prove that for a specific site - ANY browser, from ANY > > ver
X grp switching - how do I subtract?
I use setxkbmap -grp:shift_toggle and similar options to add key bindings to switch keyboard layouts. That works, but instead of replacing the previous toggle key, the new one is added to it! Running with -v 10 shows that it grabs whatever current configuration XKB has, and adds to it the command line I issued. Does anyone know how to remove grp toggle keys without restarting the X server or the current session? Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: linux at schools
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:59:45 +0200 Ira Abramov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > the main obstacle would be to get Matakh, Compedia, Edunetics and a few > others to port 5-10-15 year-old software that is intensively DOS and > Novell and Windows-specific, but is still sold to schools for nice round > sums and need require no more investment to keep making money. It would be almost impossible to convince them. An alternative (not easy) route may be to develop *better* alternatives (at least for the old products this may be feasible). Then the nessecity may force them. Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:36:41 +0200 (IST)
Adir Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Black listing" a site will most likely publish it (wait until your list
> is found in some newspaper..), and will not help with reducing the problem.
Someone already suggested a fix for this problem --
A list of buggy sites along with *non-buggy* sites
So the publication (even on a newspaper) would help contrast the two lists.
> Do you think that the webmasters and the owners of the site will care? As long
> as it brings them 90% of the population (sad, but true), they won't
> (necessarily) care much about your list.
The important factors are the owners. Such a list may have an impact if we
can have a big list of comparable sites ("buggy" vs. "non-buggy").
> 1) You will have to prove that for a specific site - ANY browser, from ANY
> version which exists over there in Linux cannot see the site properly.
No. Just that it's standard compliant or not. If it doesn't display on
Linux browsers due to bugs in the browsers -- so be it!
Any report on the list should be *linked* to a detailed description which
would be helpfull to site webmasters. These details should not be
listed on the main page as they are of no interest to non-tech people.
> 2) You will need to update your list whenever there's a change.
No! (cf. 1.)
> 3) Vicious owners can sue you for some kind of "hotzaat diba", just
> because you "black list" them. Nobody said that you wouldn't win (about it
> not being "hotzaat diba"), but I am not sure that you would want that
> headache.
This issue should be handled properly (as it becomes popular technique):
- The front page should start with a good explanation about the
motives (standard compliance etc.) and non-inflamatory intentions
of the list (and obviousely should apply these rules).
- The list should display a clear message about the method used
to categorize the sites ("buggy" / "non-buggy") and about
manual methods to correct "unjustified" categorization (from
the point of view of the site owners).
> 4) You won't contribute eliminating the problem. I believe that I have
> already mentioned that.
It won't eliminate the problem, but I believe it would help and would give
good point of reference (especially when you list "non-buggy" sites as well).
> Instead, you can do the following:
> 1) Be nice, and politely tell them that their site doesn't support...
This is always true, but if for each complaint you could attach the list URL
I thing it would be more effective.
> 2) Suggest to help them to make their site compatible with Linux. If they
> are not going to care about this, you will have to do that free of charge.
> Once again - your responsibility. And I am not sure that you would like to
> do that free of charge.
The price is not the problem. Many site owners don't bother to look at your
suggestion even if it contain specific and easy to apply fixes.
As an example let me remind an example of "pushing" mail messages to cellulars
(IIRC it was mailpush.com on behalf of Cellcom). Although several members from
this list explained to them the bug in their system (They replied any message
-- even with Precedence: junk/bulk) and gave the fix with examples, the company
refused to hear the voice of reason and kept flooding the list with messages
directed to unknown subscribers (lucky for us, I don't hear this company name
any longer, seems Justice Prevails after all :-)
> 3) Here is an idea: Create a group of "Windows-to-Linux technicians",
You fail to understand that the problem has nothing to do with Linux.
It is about professional web development (or rather its lack).
You cannot offer professional services (even for free) to people who
don't care (eat iz workeng oon MY compooter! de grafix iz grit!)
> 4) Don't black-list anybody. Nobody owes you anything and nobody has to
Let's start with state (tax payer funded) sites. They *do* owe me something.
Also they are more important as most of them don't have competition.
(can you pay your bills in another municipality site :-)
Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron
"We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce
the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
this is not true." --Robert Wilensky, University of California
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
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echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X grp switching - how do I subtract?
I use setxkbmap -grp:shift_toggle and similar options to add key bindings to switch keyboard layouts. That works, but instead of replacing the previous toggle key, the new one is added to it! Running with -v 10 shows that it grabs whatever current configuration XKB has, and adds to it the command line I issued. Does anyone know how to remove grp toggle keys without restarting the X server or the current session? Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X grp switching - how do I subtract?
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Shachar Shemesh wrote: > I use setxkbmap -grp:shift_toggle and similar options to add key > bindings to switch keyboard layouts. That works, but instead of > replacing the previous toggle key, the new one is added to it! Running > with -v 10 shows that it grabs whatever current configuration XKB has, > and adds to it the command line I issued. > > Does anyone know how to remove grp toggle keys without restarting the X > server or the current session? The place where this configuration is saved for the session lifetime is, IIRC, the x property _XKB_RULES_NAMES of the root window. I think that this is a hack that originated by XFree, and that originally it wasn't saved. So I figure that you can edit this property. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X grp switching - how do I subtract?
Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Shachar Shemesh wrote: I use setxkbmap -grp:shift_toggle and similar options to add key bindings to switch keyboard layouts. That works, but instead of replacing the previous toggle key, the new one is added to it! Running with -v 10 shows that it grabs whatever current configuration XKB has, and adds to it the command line I issued. Does anyone know how to remove grp toggle keys without restarting the X server or the current session? The place where this configuration is saved for the session lifetime is, IIRC, the x property _XKB_RULES_NAMES of the root window. I think that this is a hack that originated by XFree, and that originally it wasn't saved. So I figure that you can edit this property. Care to point me to the right place to RTFM for the X newbe? Sh. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tuesday 21 January 2003 16:08, Boulgakov Andrei wrote: > I'm agree with you. all my question were to bring an opinion as yours ( and > as mine); most of complains are: "Site doesn't support Linux" (it is not > correct, anyway. Site can not support browser) are the complains of NS4 > users. I never seen sites using VbScript client-side www.pictor.co.il - their "multiple picture uploader" uses VBscript. They have NS support for uploading one picture at a time, but this support doesn't seem to work with Mozilla or Konqueror - it just timeouts all the time. -- Regards, Alex Chudnovsky e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ : 35559910 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cable Modem mini-howto updated!
Hi all, I just updated the Cable-Modem mini-howto. Since last time this was posted, the following things happened (in importance order): 1. pppd was persistent, but would quite after 10 failed attempts. This has been fixed by adding the 'maxfail 0' option to the option file. 2. Added lots of info for different cable companies, and different ISPs. And of course added the credits to those that sent the info. 3. Beefed up the graphics. New image of network layout is more correct, thanks to Tal Achituv, and more colorful. 4. A link has been established for the mini-howto on the IGLU site under FAQ->Networking->ADSL & Cables (thanks to Tzafrir). Enjoy! Amit -- Amit Margalit = Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead. -- Benjamin Franklin = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:32:13 +0200 (IST) Tzafrir Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Standard-compliant site builders may have been able to fully use such an > approach has there been fully-standard-compliant browsers. But the current > browsers still have many little bugs that have to be worked aroundif your > code stumbles accross one of them. Interesting logic -- Since C++ compilers are not 100% standard compliant let's all go back and write all our code in FORTRAN! (and since STL is not totaly supported, we better abolish classes and inheritance as well :-) You can still write maintainable code 95% of the time and hack away a *localized*, dirty, ugly workaround for the remaining 5%. In this respect it is completely immaterial if your code is C++, Java, HTML, CSS or other forms of creative expression :-) Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron May the Source be with you! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X grp switching - how do I subtract?
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:22:19 +0200 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Care to point me to the right place to RTFM for the X newbe? Use: xprop -root _XKB_RULES_NAMES (man xprop for the rest) BTW: Tzafrir thanks for the info (didn't really need it, but it's always good to complete missing pieces). Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron "Debugging is at least twice as hard as writing the program in the first place. So if your code is as clever as you can possibly make it, then by definition you're not smart enough to debug it." -- Brian Kernighan = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X grp switching - how do I subtract?
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Oron Peled wrote: > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:22:19 +0200 > Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Care to point me to the right place to RTFM for the X newbe? > > Use: > xprop -root _XKB_RULES_NAMES > (man xprop for the rest) How do I set it? $ xprop -set _XKB_RULES_NAMES 'something' -root xprop: error: unsupported conversion for _XKB_RULES_NAMES $ xprop _XKB_RULES_NAMES -root _XKB_RULES_NAMES(STRING) = "xfree86", "pc101", "il", "", "grp:switch,grp:shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll" -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
news from MySQL
Hi, I just seen this and I'm sure that there are many MySQL freaks here that would be delighted about this... http://www.mysql.com/press/release_2003_05.html Long live and happiness.. (which means in my language - bed time) Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Getting weird errors on /proc
Hi, I get a weird error when I su into my regular user: [root@galadriel ~]# su - amit /proc/4724/fd/15: Permission denied. [amit@galadriel ~]$ Any ideas? I don't even know what else to mention... RedHat 7.1, user amit has tcsh as the shell. I get this kind of error from some scripts I run as root too, and these scripts have #!/bin/csh as the shell. Thanks, Amit -- Amit Margalit = A little experience often upsets a lot of theory. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
question about RPM dependancy
I've recently run into dependancy problems with RPMs I wanted to install. I know it's not a good idea to disable dependancy checking, but I'm not sure how to get around this. When installing a package from RPM, I get: Installation failed: libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.3) is needed by libopencdk4-0.4.2-2 I thought this dependancy problem would be easy to solve, because I have glibc-2.2.5-16mdk installed and a 2.3.1 package exists for Mandrake. But when I tried to update from 2.2.5 to 2.3.1, I discovered that this breaks other programs that want only 2.2.5. I get error messges like these: glibc = 2.2.5 is needed by locales-2.3.1.3-7mdk glibc = 2.2.5-16mdk is needed by glibc-devel-2.2.5-16mdk The question is, can I safely disregard this or do I have to upgrade those packages too. And if so, where does it end? I'm especially concerned because I know how essential glibc is to many parts of the system. -- Shlomo Solomon http://come.to/shlomo.solomon Sent by KMail (KDE 3.0.3) on LINUX Mandrake 9.0 To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: question about RPM dependancy
On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, shlomo solomon wrote: > I've recently run into dependancy problems with RPMs I wanted to install. I > know it's not a good idea to disable dependancy checking, but I'm not sure > how to get around this. > > When installing a package from RPM, I get: > > Installation failed: > libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.3) is needed by libopencdk4-0.4.2-2 It is compiled against glibc 2.3 > > I thought this dependancy problem would be easy to solve, because I > have glibc-2.2.5-16mdk installed and a 2.3.1 package exists for Mandrake. But > when I tried to update from 2.2.5 to 2.3.1, I discovered that this breaks > other programs that want only 2.2.5. I get error messges like these: You mean: upgrade glibc > > glibc = 2.2.5 is needed by locales-2.3.1.3-7mdk > glibc = 2.2.5-16mdk is needed by glibc-devel-2.2.5-16mdk > > The question is, can I safely disregard this or do I have to upgrade those > packages too. And if so, where does it end? No! The locales definitions are part of the glibc distribution. Mandrake has decided to separate them for space considirations. You need a locales package of the same version. NAturally this applies to glibc-devel : strange things may happen when you build things on a system with 2.3 glibc , but with headers and static libs of glibc 2.2 . > > I'm especially concerned because I know how essential glibc is to many parts > of the system. Which is why you should think carefully before upgrading it. For instance: any package that you'll build now won't work with a "vanilla" Mandrake installation (if you have multiple machines). -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fw: install rh 7.3 on big hd with discwizard
On Tuesday 21 January 2003 19:06, Shaul Karl wrote: > On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 01:16:01PM +0200, Freiman wrote: > > Hello! > > I bought a new hd from seagate. it's too big for my bios (40 gb), so i > > install it with discwizard. i do th partition with discwizard, and start > > to install rh 7.3. the installer recognize the full size of hd, and the > > partition that i did. but when it start wrote the boot image to the hd. > > it said that i have problem with disk space. thank you > > moti > > The only advise I can give is to look on the net for documentation. > Perhaps the LDP Large Disk Howto? Maybe you want to upgrade your bios? > However I am not taking any responsibility in case the upgrade will fail. > > Hope it somehow help. I recently had the same problem and upgrading the BIOS is definitely the way to go IMHO. Once the BIOS is upgraded, Linux doesn't care what size the disk is and your install should not be a problem. If you know the exact model of your mother board, you can probably find the updated BIOS on the internet. If not, I seem to remember that there's a program out there somewhere to analyze the BIOS ID and advise you what BIOS upgrade you need. In any case, when you upgrade the BIOS, make sure to follow instructions about backing up the BIOS and creating a boot diskette, because if you do something wrong (or even if there's a power outage during the process), that can leave you with an un-bootable motherboard. Try this site for more info: http://www.wimsbios.com/ good luck -- Shlomo Solomon http://come.to/shlomo.solomon Sent by KMail (KDE 3.0.3) on LINUX Mandrake 9.0 To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Getting weird errors on /proc
Amit Margalit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > [root@galadriel ~]# su - amit > /proc/4724/fd/15: Permission denied. > [amit@galadriel ~]$ > > Any ideas? I don't even know what else to mention... Permissions on the file and the directory? And on /bin/t?csh? -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Booting with something else instead of /sbin/init
Hello I'm trying to make kernel to start a different application instead of /sbin/init. So, I passing init=/bin/sh in kernel command line. I actually can see this setting in messages emitted by kernel. But from some reason the kernel starts a real /sbin/init and ignores my setting. Last strings from kernel were: VFS: Mounted root (jffs2 filesystem). Freeing unused kernel memory: 52k init and then the real init starts. What can be the problem ? My setup: PPC, PPCboot (where I'm setting kernel arguments), busybox init and sh (ash) Thanks, Michael. -- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Getting weird errors on /proc
Amit Margalit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > [root@galadriel ~]# su - amit > /proc/4724/fd/15: Permission denied. > [amit@galadriel ~]$ > > Any ideas? I don't even know what else to mention... In addition to permissions: What's the process 4724? What is fd 15? A socket? Run strace to see what is happening? -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
