Re: [Evolution] Oh for heavens sake ....

[Philippe Lefèvre]

Yes, this "Social Networks" orientation with these likes, badges and 
other school gadgets is really appalling even though today's "majors" 
(Facebook, Apple etc ...) are having a field day capturing kids (... and 
big kids).


An option in one's own personal Evolution profile to remove this useless 
and uninteresting stuff would be welcome.


Regards,
PhL


Le 21/10/2022 à 18:03, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list a écrit :

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 17:29 +0200, Torsten Krah wrote:

Am Freitag, dem 21.10.2022 um 14:51 + schrieb Sorin Srbu:

Oh, great. LOL!
Now I have to wipe off that coffee I blurted out on the monitors
laughing while reading these two comments. :*)

Same for me here, that made my day

Hi,

the best comedy comment was made by Sorin Srbu [1].

Here primary school children get a smiley stamp for good work and Pete
pretty sure gets a badge for his hard work. For this forum folks we are
circus monkeys or at best primary school children and we get rewarded
with the sound of a click frog, if we do what they want. Basically, we
are humiliated and insulted.

Regards,
Ralf


[1]
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:10 +, Sorin Srbu wrote:

I'm pretty sure you'll get a badge by tomorrow for your effort today!

;-)
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution crashes when trying to compose email

[Pete Biggs]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 19:58 -0400, Ken Wright wrote:
> On 2022-10-21 19:45, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > 
> > > I just upgraded to Ubuntu 22.10 and Evolution 3.46.0-2, and all of a
> > > sudden I can't compose, send, or reply without Evo crashing.  There's
> > > obviously something wrong in the installation, but I'm a hardware 
> > > geek,
> > > not a software guru.  Can anyone shed any light on this issue?  
> > > Further
> > > details upon request.
> > > 
> > There's been quite a few reports of crashing with that version.  You
> > don't say what sort of crash you see, but is it anything like
> > 
> >  https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libsoup/-/issues/308
> > 
> > which was fixed about a week ago but may take sometime to filter down
> > to the distros.
> 
> Okay, you may now mock the hardware geek, because nothing at that link 
> made the slightest bit of sense to me.

No mocking from me - I would much rather be bit blasting I2C hardware.

> 
> Now, let me describe the crash.  It starts with the program stopping, 
> and after a minute or two I get the option to Wait or Force Quit.  If I 
> Wait, I get the same message again a few seconds later.  Force Quit does 
> what it says it will, and terminates the program.

You need to start Evolution from the command line and it will show the
errors.

> 
> If the problem was fixed a week ago, is there a Flatpak I can install 
> that works?  I can continue using RoundCube if I need to, but I'd rather 
> use Evo.
> 
The problem with fixing things at the source level is that unless it's
a security bug, it often takes a while to filter through to updates to
apps in distros. 

P.



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Re: [Evolution] Evolution crashes when trying to compose email

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> Replying to myself:  I Googled how to install the most recent Flatpak,
> and it appears to be working properly now.  Thanks, Pete, for pointing
> me in the right direction!
> 
Flatpak Evo versions have got much better recently, but you still need
to realise that they run in their own sandbox and don't interact the
same as native apps. But if it works for you, go for it, but there can
be different issues.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Oh for heavens sake ....

[Pete Biggs]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 10:52 +0200, Philippe Lefèvre wrote:
> Yes, this "Social Networks" orientation with these likes, badges and
> other school gadgets is really appalling even though today's "majors"
> (Facebook, Apple etc ...) are having a field day capturing kids (...
> and big kids).
> 
> An option in one's own personal Evolution profile to remove this
> useless and uninteresting stuff would be welcome.
> 
That's not really possible - as far as I can see the levels and badges
are a fundamental part of what Discourse is.

It's called "gamification".

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution crashes when trying to compose email

[Mark Stanton]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 10:23 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 19:58 -0400, Ken Wright wrote:
> > On 2022-10-21 19:45, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > 
> 
> The problem with fixing things at the source level is that unless
> it's
> a security bug, it often takes a while to filter through to updates
> to
> apps in distros. 
> 
> P.

Switch to Fedora 8-)
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 20:04 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> Brewster Gillett said on Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:50:24 -0700
> 
> 
> > Excellent question. I'll toss out this possibility:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > We're using groups.io for a couple of the Mensa discussion lists
> > I'm
> > on. Mostly indistinguishable from good ol' mailman. Don't know if
> > there's a cost involved, but I would be willing to contribute if we
> > move there.
> 
> How many members does this list have? If it's less than 100, we can
> use
> the free version of groups.io.

As of right now, there are 856 registered subscribers to the Evolution
list.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?

[Mark Stanton]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:09 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 21.10.2022 o godz. 13:04:15 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > 
> > It seems to take some time. I suspect Discourse is batching emails.

I've been receiving them frequently.  I signed up a couple of hours ago
and have had regular and frequent messages, started almost immediately.
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:02 +0100, Mark Stanton wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:09 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > Dnia 21.10.2022 o godz. 13:04:15 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > > 
> > > It seems to take some time. I suspect Discourse is batching
> > > emails.
> 
> I've been receiving them frequently.  I signed up a couple of hours
> ago
> and have had regular and frequent messages, started almost
> immediately.

I seem to be getting them now. Trouble is, I'm also getting stuff that
has absolutely nothing to do with Evolution, despite having set a tag
(or whatever it's called) to "Evolution". As Pete has pointed out, the
Discourse system doesn't seem to be set up for the kind of exact focus
we need. This could be a real problem unless the Gnome admins create a
specific topic for Evo as they have done for a few other things.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?

[Paul Smith]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 13:42 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> I seem to be getting them now. Trouble is, I'm also getting stuff
> that has absolutely nothing to do with Evolution, despite having set
> a tag (or whatever it's called) to "Evolution".

If you set "Mailing list mode" in your Discourse Emails preferences,
turn that off.  If you enable that then your other preferences are
ignored and you just get an email for every post to the site,
basically.

See my other email: I'm not getting anything not related to Evolution
after following those steps.
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 08:50 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
> On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 13:42 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > I seem to be getting them now. Trouble is, I'm also getting stuff
> > that has absolutely nothing to do with Evolution, despite having
> > set
> > a tag (or whatever it's called) to "Evolution".
> 
> If you set "Mailing list mode" in your Discourse Emails preferences,
> turn that off.  If you enable that then your other preferences are
> ignored and you just get an email for every post to the site,
> basically.
> 
> See my other email: I'm not getting anything not related to Evolution
> after following those steps.

OK, I'll try that.

So the way to get it working as a proper mailing list is by turning off
Mailing List Mode. So intuitive.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 13:55 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> So the way to get it working as a proper mailing list is by turning off
> Mailing List Mode. So intuitive.

Hi,

yesno, even after doing so, it is not working as a proper mailing list.
The emails are still multipart messages with remote content, there's no
real archive etc... If a user unsubscribes from evolution-list@gnome.org
no posts are deleted from the archive. After deleting my Discourse
account, my posts disappeared.

Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?

[Paul Smith]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 13:55 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> So the way to get it working as a proper mailing list is by turning
> off Mailing List Mode. So intuitive.

Agreed it's really poorly named.  I think the idea is that if you
enable it then it's as if the entire Discourse site becomes one huge
mailing list that everyone is sending stuff to.

I don't know why hardly anyone would find that useful.

But, the method of "subscribing to mailing lists" in GNOME Discourse,
is to add tags to your "Watched" list and tell Discourse to email you
about all "Watched" items.


IMO the way the GNOME Discourse site is organized is unfortunate: they
created broad categories like Applications, Desktop, etc.  Then they
use tags to choose specific applications within them.

It seems to me that it would be more useful/usable to create separate
categories for each application like Evolution, etc. then tags could be
used for different types of issues within the application, such as (for
Evolution for example) IMAP, Exchange, UI, etc. etc.  This would also
mean that it would be simple to sort email because the category DOES
appear in the subject of the email, while tags are nowhere to be found.
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Anonymous Japhering via evolution-list]

On 10/21/22 11:50, Brewster Gillett wrote:

  Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list wrote:

A quick and simple question: who is in position to decide to move this list
to another mailing list, hosted elsewhere? There have been already a few
propositions on this list for an alternative. Who is the "owner" of this
list who can decide about the move?

bg:

Excellent question. I'll toss out this possibility:



We're using groups.io for a couple of the Mensa discussion lists I'm on.
Mostly indistinguishable from good ol' mailman. Don't know if there's
a cost involved, but I would be willing to contribute if we move there.


Groups.io is interesting but also there are a few concerning things

The free level only allows up to 100 members -- how many folks are in
the current list?

All levels have restrictions on archive size:  1GB, 30GB, 1TB. Anyone
know how big, size wise, the archives are?

It appears to be possible that the archives could, with some rules and
volunteer help, be converted into a Wiki or move into some other integrated
service (would need to get the complete list of integrations to see).

Hashtags might be useful to avoid subgroups ( user, dev, bugs, help etc ).

For those that still use RSS, there is an email to RSS feed.

Monthly pricing or Year in advance ( 12 months for the price of 11 )

Groups.io:

Free level

   Unlimited messages
   Up to 100 members
   Advanced moderation features
   1GB attachment storage

Premium level -  $0.04/member per month with a $20/month minimum

   Everything in Free, plus:

   Direct add members
   Customizable profiles and member data
   Unlimited subgroups
   Calendar
   Files section
   Photo albums
   Real-time chat
   Wiki
   Structured databases
   Polls
   Accept donations from members
   30GB storage space

Enterprise level -  $0.20/member per month with a $200/month minimum

   Everything in Premium, plus:

   Your own branding
   Your own domain
   Single sign on, via Auth0 (others by request)
   Customizable home page
   1TB storage space
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 09:53 -0500, Anonymous Japhering wrote:
> Groups.io is interesting but also there are a few concerning things
> The free level only allows up to 100 members -- how many folks are in 
>  the current list?
>  
>  All levels have restrictions on archive size:  1GB, 30GB, 1TB.

https://riseup.net/en/lists/list-admin/configuration/creating-lists

I created a ticket at https://support.riseup.net/en/topics/new .


Email:  ralf-mardorf at riseup.net
Name:   Ralf Mardorf
Group/Team: Lists
Subject:Freedom of Internet users

Message:

Hi,

I suspect that a FLOSS mailing list for a MUA doesn't fit the "only
requirement" "that the list must be used for radical social change."
OTOH fighting against nowadays Internet lifestyle by some of us is
considered "a progressive, radical, or revolutionary nature", hence this
request.

Evolution is a full featured FLOSS MUA, that can replace proprietary
solutions for almost everything. The GNOME project informed the
subscribers of the Evolution mailing list 11 days before it will be
dropped. The list is discontinued at the end of this month, see
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/msg00128.html
.

The replacement is https://discourse.gnome.org/ , a forum with levels,
badges, no real archive, sending mails with remote content. Our
community is being threatened by decay, since we can't stand this
approach, that is a copy of proprietary approaches, that aren't good for
the freedom of Internet usage.

Apart from jokes related to the Vogons, we don't have fun, but instead
we suffer from fear to loose another free community.

I wonder if you would allow us to migrate this list to lists.riseup.net
. Almost all subscribers don't care about GNOME at all, we care about a
good MUA and a lot of users aren't willing to follow GNOME's migration
to Discourse.

AFAIK we are around 900 subscribers, used to send plain text emails
without attachments.

Regards,
Ralf

PS:

This is the ticket:
https://support.riseup.net/en/ticket/3227QJ76OfCW7Ci7

Consider to drop a note.
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[Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list

[Pete Biggs]

I thought I would put together some of my thoughts about using
Discourse that I have gained in just a day of using it. A day is not
very long and I may not have fully understood everything - but there
again, I am, apparently, the top poster on the topic with most replies
in the Application category on Gnome Discourse!

I'm sorry, but this will be a lengthy post.  TL;DR: I'm not convinced
that Discourse is a useful replacement for a mailing list.

First, a thought about the demise of the Mailman mailing list. From
what I can see the excuses are just that. Redhat use Mailman for some
of their big lists - the CentOS list uses Mailman for instance. If the
future of Mailman was in doubt, they would have plans in place!  Spam
is largely a solved problem these days - various accounts I have use
different spam flagging techniques and they all function perfectly
adequately - from personal SpamAssassin to high volume corporate spam
and malware blocking.  They just didn't want to have mailing lists
anymore.

Using the forum.
===

My issues are largely down to not particularly liking forum type
things. I don't think all are exclusive to Discourse:

   Posts are displayed linearly and no option to have a tree-like message
   list.
   
   You can show the replies to a message, but you can't see their replies.
   It looses context very quickly. Similarly you can only show the message
   that a reply refers to and no more than that.  In a large discussion,
   if people don't quote anything, it's impossible to know what they are
   replying to without furiously clicking around and scrolling.
   
   OK for quick discussions - up to 5-10 posts. Beyond that it becomes
   difficult to follow.  Certainly seems to not be suitable for lengthy 
   technical discussions.
   
   Sub-categories would make things easier, but are not wanted
 https://discourse.gnome.org/t/sub-categories/11733
 
   Gamification of the whole thing is puerile and annoying.  I do not see
   it as an achievement to gain "badges" and nor do I strive to earn more.


As a mailing list replacement.
=

We have been told that we just need to login once to Discourse and set
things up, then all interaction will be by email and we won't notice
any difference. Really? What planet are they on?

   No topic tags on emails. So no easy way to filter topics. If you
   watch more than one topic, all mails are the same. 
   
   Own posts not notified of. It removes context for a mailing list. I
   keep copies of mailing list posts as a sort of private archive -
   mainly so I can see what I've answered to queries before. That's
   gone.
   
   Slow or sporadic email notifications make discussion difficult.
   
   No or broken threading on emails. This one is so annoying.  Doesn't
   any of the people who use Discourse use threading anywhere. Context
   is everything.
   
   Plain text emails sent to Discourse have formatting mangled (white 
   space isn't honoured). There's no point in nicely formatting plain
   text, it will be mangled. (These indents will be lost - if I sent it
   there.)
   
   Mails are really just notifications - there's no nested quoting of
   content to provide context. You can choose to have previous replies 
   at bottom or include an excerpt, but that's not contextual quoting.

I'm sure there is much more. It would be nice if there was someone who
engaged with us properly a while ago to sort things out, but all I've
had so far is to point me to meta.discourse.org - but that is clearly
aimed at admins and not users.

Clearly many of my issues are because I'm coming from a mail / mailing
list perspective. But if we hadn't been told that it was a direct
replacement, and if we hadn't been told to shutup and just use it, then
I would have perhaps been a bit more lenient. But also, I would never
have started using it in the first place.

Is it a direct mailing list replacement? Definitely not.

Is it useful as a community support tool? Possibly.

Will I continue to use it? Jury is out on that one.

P.



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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 09:53 -0500, Anonymous Japhering via evolution-
list wrote:
> The free level only allows up to 100 members -- how many folks are in
> the current list?

Around 850 at the moment.

> All levels have restrictions on archive size:  1GB, 30GB, 1TB. Anyone
> know how big, size wise, the archives are?

I could probably get that info but I'd be surprised if it were less
than 1GB.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[mario chiari]

+1

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 12:47 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > 
> 
> If this is real, then the "communicating" has been sadly lacking.
> This
> is the first I've heard of it.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but I find "Forum" type things, which I believe is what
> Discourse is, not at all intuitive and I hate dealing with them. Is
> there to be no way of contributing sensibly using email - yes, I've
> read the post from "Jehan" - it looks like it's a distinct kludge to
> interact with it via email.
> 
> 20 years of helping the Evolution community and it looks like it's
> the
> end.
> 
> P.
> 
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Torsten Krah via evolution-list]

I do have the skills to drive a mailman list from an infrastructure point
of view including all the mta, spam etc. stuff with postfix & co, DNS etc.
pp.


We would need a maildomain + some hosting provider and now here it gets
interesting - at least it is much less than the group.io prices written
here per month, e.g. if you look at the virtual servers from hetzner.de for
e.g. a cx21 it's about 6,37€ per month + storage box backup place + the
domain costs which are e.g. for a .de domain about 12€ per year, .org about
16€ and we would have no limitations from users etc - only the resources of
the host are of cause the limit ;-).

So we could move to something driven by the community itself including the
costs or we move like Milan said maybe to freedesktop lists infra if we can
...

The problem is we do only have a few days left to discuss that and to
analyze what most members and the devs itself prefer here including for
example to provide a prototype of alternatives to test and vote against or
in favour - really a bad move to not communicate that earlier on this list
itself but somewhere else where no one of the nearly 950 subscribers are
subscribed too to read that ... :-/.

Just my 2 cents about that.

Torsten
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Re: [Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 17:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> First, a thought about the demise of the Mailman mailing list.

A while back FreeBSD migrated from Mailman to another Software and the
still provide the old Mailman archive + the Archive of the new mailing
list software, for example
https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions/ .

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 19:14 +0200, Torsten Krah wrote:
> The problem is we do only have a few days left to discuss that

Hi,

in 2021 a member of the Ubuntu community started to run an off-topic
mailing list. It has got very low traffic, the list archive only
contains January 2021, February 2021, May 2021, July 2021 and September
2021 ;), since just a few people started using it for off-topic
discussions.

Discourse is already an off-topic discussion on the Ubuntu users mailing
list, see
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2022-October/308598.html
.

I suspect that we can stay in contact via
https://lists.sonic.net/mailman/listinfo/itsbuntoff .

We need to ask
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2021-January/303099.html
, I add rikona by Cc.

I'm already subscribed.

Still open: https://support.riseup.net/en/ticket/3227QJ76OfCW7Ci7

I suspect that https://freeshell.de/about/ can't be used for this
purpose. I've got an account, but still need to read. However, if we
take some time and stay in contact, we probably will find a solution.
End of October isn't the end of the world.

We already had an offer or two offers by members of this mailing list,
we should keep this/those offers in mind, too.

Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 19:51 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 17:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > First, a thought about the demise of the Mailman mailing list.
> 
> A while back FreeBSD migrated from Mailman to another Software and
> the
> still provide the old Mailman archive + the Archive of the new
> mailing
> list software, for example
> https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions/ .

As Pete says, it's simply not credible that the underlying problem is
Mailman. Perhaps the Gnome people don't want to support Mailman, or
don't want to host it, but many technical lists, including all the
lists on the Fedora project, are based on Mailman and I see no
indication that this is going to change. They did introduce a web
interface called HyperKitty which some people use (and which I
cordially dislike) but it's a lot less lame than Discourse and does
properly interact with the lists without any setup required from the
user.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 17:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> I thought I would put together some of my thoughts about using
> Discourse that I have gained in just a day of using it. A day is not
> very long and I may not have fully understood everything - but there
> again, I am, apparently, the top poster on the topic with most
> replies
> in the Application category on Gnome Discourse!

Well said. I agree with all of this.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list

[Pete Biggs]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 22:08 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 17:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > I thought I would put together some of my thoughts about using
> > Discourse that I have gained in just a day of using it. A day is not
> > very long and I may not have fully understood everything - but there
> > again, I am, apparently, the top poster on the topic with most
> > replies
> > in the Application category on Gnome Discourse!
> 
> Well said. I agree with all of this.
> 

And it's clear from posts on the forum that they really don't want us
there on any terms other than being well behaved, compliant members of
the Gnome community.

Sad, but I think the jury has come to their decision.

P.

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Re: [Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list

[Pete Biggs]

On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 02:24 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 22:08 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 17:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > I thought I would put together some of my thoughts about using
> > > Discourse that I have gained in just a day of using it. A day is not
> > > very long and I may not have fully understood everything - but there
> > > again, I am, apparently, the top poster on the topic with most
> > > replies
> > > in the Application category on Gnome Discourse!
> > 
> > Well said. I agree with all of this.
> > 
> 
> And it's clear from posts on the forum that they really don't want us
> there on any terms other than being well behaved, compliant members of
> the Gnome community.
> 
> Sad, but I think the jury has come to their decision.
> 

I hope that Gnome is happy to have destroyed a vibrant, helpful support
community. For what? Because they can't be arsed to deal with spam;
because we didn't fit in with their vision of how support should be
provided; because we aren't good Gnome citizens.

We were sold a pig-in-a-poke. This is what one of the admins of the
forum said:

   Yes: Discourse is not a good mailing list software. It’s predicated
   on the idea that you can use email to interact with it, but it’s not
   the main interaction model. Tools like moderation and community
   management are based on interacting through the web UI. Can
   Discourse be fixed? Of course: it’s software, it can do anything.
   Plus, it’s open source software, so it can be fixed by anybody. If
   people are willing to work on it, I’m sure it’s going to improve
   that particular side, and maybe it’ll be a good replacement for
   mailman. Are GNOME admins going to do that? No, I don’t think they
   will.
   
The "configure once and then just use email" was a lie.

To continue the Douglas Adams quotes: 

"So long and thanks for all the fish".

Pete

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Re: [Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list

[Dan Kortschak via evolution-list]

On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 02:41 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 02:24 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 22:08 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 17:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > > I thought I would put together some of my thoughts about using
> > > > Discourse that I have gained in just a day of using it. A day
> > > > is not
> > > > very long and I may not have fully understood everything - but
> > > > there
> > > > again, I am, apparently, the top poster on the topic with most
> > > > replies
> > > > in the Application category on Gnome Discourse!
> > >
> > > Well said. I agree with all of this.
> > >
> >
> > And it's clear from posts on the forum that they really don't want
> > us
> > there on any terms other than being well behaved, compliant members
> > of
> > the Gnome community.
> >
> > Sad, but I think the jury has come to their decision.
> >
>
> I hope that Gnome is happy to have destroyed a vibrant, helpful
> support
> community. For what? Because they can't be arsed to deal with spam;
> because we didn't fit in with their vision of how support should be
> provided; because we aren't good Gnome citizens.
>
> We were sold a pig-in-a-poke. This is what one of the admins of the
> forum said:
>
>    Yes: Discourse is not a good mailing list software. It’s
> predicated
>    on the idea that you can use email to interact with it, but it’s
> not
>    the main interaction model. Tools like moderation and community
>    management are based on interacting through the web UI. Can
>    Discourse be fixed? Of course: it’s software, it can do anything.
>    Plus, it’s open source software, so it can be fixed by anybody. If
>    people are willing to work on it, I’m sure it’s going to improve
>    that particular side, and maybe it’ll be a good replacement for
>    mailman. Are GNOME admins going to do that? No, I don’t think they
>    will.
>
> The "configure once and then just use email" was a lie.
>
> To continue the Douglas Adams quotes: 
>
>     "So long and thanks for all the fish".
>
> Pete

This has been my experience with GNOME decision makers in other areas
as well. Failure to engage, diminution of concerns and then moving on
with the tired refrain of it's open source so your could fix it
yourself, and then cycling back to failure to engage.

"Resistance is useless!"

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Re: [Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 01:59 +, Dan Kortschak wrote:
> This has been my experience with GNOME decision makers in other areas
> as well. Failure to engage, diminution of concerns and then moving on
> with the tired refrain of it's open source so your could fix it
> yourself, and then cycling back to failure to engage.
> 
> "Resistance is useless!"

Hi,

resistance is not futile! Other communities are also in a pissy mood,
see
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list/2022-October/date.html .
No community was informed, they have done this in the dead of night.

Btw. I started doing almost all my drawing artwork on an iPad and for
the work on my FLOSS desktop machine I migrated a long time ago to
Krita, since GIMP developers already have broken GIMP a long time ago.

Since Evolution depends much on GNOME [1], I expect that the next thing
will be radical changes of those dependencies, rendering Evolution
useless for a lot of us. Maybe we don't need a new mailing list, once
Evolution does look and behave like almost all other GNOME apps.

At first the migration from GIMP to Krita wasn't easy. Krita's user
interface was less good and it was missing features, but in the long run
I got rid of a lot of issues. OTOH KDE / Krita developers welcome users
as much as GNOME / Gimp developers do. Qt based apps just don't suffer
from such a bad basic concept as a lot of gtk3, let alone gtk4 apps do.
In my experiences developers of proprietary software care way more about
the users. For drawing, photo and publishing apps the market leader
Adobe rips users off and doesn't care about users, but competitors such
as Affinity outstrip Adobe. The competitors software nowadays is better
and the competitors care about user experiences and the user's wishes.

There will be radical changes in the future. Big companies, huge
projects of FLOSS as well as proprietary software that overdo things,
will take a plunge. The computer market is still quite young, as soon as
it is further disenchanted, more and more users will fight back.

I wish the GNOME project many, long-lasting DDoS attacks!

Regards,
Ralf

[1]
$ pacman -Qi evolution evolution-data-server | grep Depends\ On
Depends On  : gnome-desktop  evolution-data-server  libcanberra  libpst  
libytnef  gspell  libcryptui  gnome-autoar  libgweather-4  enchant  cmark  
libcamel-1.2.so=63-64  libebook-1.2.so=20-64  libebook-contacts-1.2.so=3-64  
libecal-2.0.so=1-64  libedataserver-1.2.so=26-64  libedataserverui-1.2.so=3-64
Depends On  : gnome-online-accounts  nss  krb5  libgweather-4  libical  db  
libgdata  libphonenumber  libcanberra
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[Evolution] The system of levels, badges and presents of Discourse

[Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list]

By closing individual mailman mailing lists and replacing it with a
single forum, everything is under control of a single authority. There
even isn't the need to moderate or ban users with unwanted opinions,
since the users are educated by levels, badges and presents. IOW all
users are under general suspicion to express unwanted opinions, hence
everybody is moderated by a credit system. This Chinese alike approach
has nothing to do with the "libre" in FLOSS.

There are valid reasons to moderate or ban a user, but usually such a
user is barred by an individual part of a project, not by the whole
universe and before it happens a user must have expressed something that
is unwanted.

A credit system to stop individual opinions in the first place stops all
individual opinions completely. At the worst a "misbehaving" user gets
not only banned from one or the other part of the project, but from the
whole universe of the superior project.
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