[Evolution] DATA command Failed: Message Refused

[Kojak T]

Hi, 

Pre... 

Ubuntu 8.04, Latest updates installed
Evolution: 2.22.3.1


Recently, I get errors sending e-mails: 

"Error while performing operation. DATA command failed: Message refused"

I've changed my default mail server to GoDaddy. and it seems only to
happen when using those accounts.

I'm sending this message via evolution using my Gmail account, it works
perfect, as well as my other accounts. So my suspicion is going towards
GoDaddy. But is anybody able to tell me what this error message actually
means? 


Thanks, 
M.Kojak.S



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Re: [Evolution] DATA command Failed: Message Refused

[Kojak T]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 01:24 -0600, Kojak T wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
> Pre... 
> 
> Ubuntu 8.04, Latest updates installed
> Evolution: 2.22.3.1
> 
> 
> Recently, I get errors sending e-mails: 
> 
> "Error while performing operation. DATA command failed: Message refused"
> 
> I've changed my default mail server to GoDaddy. and it seems only to
> happen when using those accounts.
> 
> I'm sending this message via evolution using my Gmail account, it works
> perfect, as well as my other accounts. So my suspicion is going towards
> GoDaddy. But is anybody able to tell me what this error message actually
> means? 
> 
> 
> Thanks, 
> M.Kojak.S
> 


Hi,

Found it, 

If I include the link  http://x.myvnc.com  
{with  my forwarded domain, a valid link from No-IP.com service;
Go-daddy must not like it and refuses the message}

Actually pretty sick that a hosting company {Go-Daddy} will filter my
emails. 

I Did test several times as follows:

email with generic message, through Go-daddy account:  NO problem
email with this link through Go-daddy account: ERROR as stated above
email with this link, through any other email hosting (google, msn,
telus, ...) NO problem. 


So NO evolution problem at all. but thought I share it anyway, since
I've posted previous message. 

Greetings, 
M.Kojak.S


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[Evolution] New makefile for building Evolution from GIT

[Paul Smith]

Hi all.

Thanks to help from Patrick and a few others, I have a new version of my
makefile to build Evolution from source, that works with the new GIT
repositories.  It currently builds the latest content of the gnome-2.28
GIT branch (I didn't try the MASTER branch since I think it's unstable
due to the bonobo stuff).  It also will build the Openchange libmapi
stuff from their source tree.

The good news is it kind of works, at least on Ubuntu Jaunty and for Evo
2.28.x.  IMAP support definitely seems stable.  Also I'm FINALLY able to
see my Exchange mailbox via MAPI (on native Jaunty Evo 2.26.1 this just
doesn't work).

And, of course, my makefile builds everything with full debugging and no
optimization, enables logging, and captures core dumps, the better to
help Evo devs improve the product.

There's a lot of bad news, though:

 1. I tried for a few days to get it to build on Ubuntu Hardy, but
that is just too old.  The new Evo requires a lot of new
libraries, and in particular it requires a new libxml2 library
(newer, even, than Jaunty's) and that new library is different
enough from the Hardy libxml2 that you have to rebuild pretty
much everything that links it (and that Evo links)... and that's
a LOT of stuff.  I kept adding and adding and adding Gnome
packages to the MUSTBUILD list and finally I got tired and gave
up, at least for now.  I'm still getting link errors trying to
link Evolution itself.  Also, I just recently bought a new
computer for home (arriving in the mail today!) and that one
will be capable of running newer versions of Ubuntu (and my old
system is being given away to someone who will want to load
Windows XP on it)--so I'll be losing my Hardy test machine quite
soon.  I welcome anyone else's efforts to get it working,
though: if you want to try I'm happy to give you tips/pointers.
It may well just be a case of continuing to add Gnome packages
to the MUSTBUILD list until you finally get them all.
 2. The Evo I built is pretty unstable on Jaunty.  I have a bad
feeling that this might be the same problem I'm seeing on Hardy
(mismatched shared libraries, esp. libxml2) but while on Hardy
it causes link errors, on Jaunty it might link OK but be causing
runtime errors.  I'll send another email with some details about
the core dump I seem to be seeing all the time: it's mostly the
same one.
 3. Although I can access my Evo mailbox over MAPI, I still can't
get either the GAL or the Calendar to work properly.  I even
disabled my account accidentally by entering my password too
many times so Windows Active Directory locked me out and I had
to go to IT to get my account re-enabled :-).  I have PART of my
calendar showing up, but not all, and attempts to use the
address book just say "error accessing address book".  I'll send
more info on these problems as well.

There's also the fact that Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic) will be released in just
a few weeks: it should be much simpler to build newer versions of Evo
for Karmic (a lot of these library issues should go away for example).

I didn't intentionally break support for any other distro, but I haven't
tested it there either--and the makefile got quite a bit more complex
since it needs to support building not just from GIT (for Gnome) but
from SVN (for openchange) and even from source tarballs (for things like
sqlite3 which I needed for the Hardy attempt).

So, this is more of a debugging aid at this point than a true stable
replacement.  I'm looking for folks who are intrepid and maybe know a
bit about building software and makefiles, who'd like to give it a try
and let me know what's broken/missing/etc.  If that's you let me know
and I'll send you a copy.

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Re: [Evolution] Automatic GPG encryption

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Fri, 2009-10-16 at 09:04 +0200, Milan Crha wrote
> On Thu, 2009-10-15 at 20:58 +0100, Paul Leyland wrote:
> > How can I configure Evolution so that it *always* encrypts to the GPG
> > key of the recipients of the mail I send?
> > It's easy to see how to set it always to sign with GPG and/or SMIME and
> > always to encrypt SMIME mail.
> Yeah, it seems that there is no such option for GPG in
> Edit->Preferences->Mail accounts->  -> Edit->Security tab
> There is such option for SMIME only. I wouldn't expect it anywhere else.
> > Is there a solution, perhaps incorporating some third-party add-on or
> > some scripting?  Alternatively, should this issue be raised as a
> > request-for-enhancement?
> There is one already probably, so you can try to find it or enter a new
> one.

Yes, there already is one, or maybe two.



I use GPG a lot, but it is actually more complicated than just "always
encrypt".  What if no key is available, should it complain or just
silently not encrypt?   What if multiple keys match: should it fail,
prompt user to select a key, or silently just pick one [the later seems
bad]?  I think such an option is more work than it first appears





SMOP - (1, noun) Literally means "Small Matter Of Programming".  Most
often used ironically regarding a suggestion for a feature which seems
easy to the suggester, but is obviously [to the programmer] a lot of
work.   :)

Personally, using GPG a lot, I'd much rather have Seahorse
 included in GNOME and integrated better
with Evolution.  I *love* Seahorse.  Finally an app that makes managing
crypto stuff not painful.





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Re: [Evolution] names change using LDAP

[Lars Schade]

Thanks Adam for your insightful answer - I begin to understand the
problem. But the more I look into it the worse it gets. I think this is
just the tip of the iceberg.
One aspect of the problem arises - as you pointed out - from my wish to
press org data in a framework (vcard) designed for individuals. 
Another aspect is a strange (or buggy?) implementation of the ldap
interface of evolution. Here is an example: I start with a contact that
consists of a person with just a family name and enter this contact via
the evo GUI into an LDAP addressbook. I close evo, open it again and
look at this simple contact: Now the person nolonger has a family name
but instead a given name identical to its former family name. Similar
things happen when I enter a postal code in the evo GUI for the address
and then close and restart evo. The information is not stored in the
postal-code-attribute of the LDAP record but rather as part of the
postaladdress attribute and then read into the big address field rather
than the postal code field I formerly entered it.
This is a mess to work with if information entered in one field of the
GUI is shuffeled around just by writing to the LDAP database and reading
it back again.
Is there any reason not to use a schema exactly matching the evo GUI or,
alternatively, sticking to a general vcard schema and adjusting the evo
GUI accordingly?
I guess I have to look for a completely different approach to my
problem. I would have thought that this is a more or less standard use
case but seem to be mistaken - too bad.
Thanks again for the information and help!

 

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Re: [Evolution] Automatic GPG encryption

[Milan Crha]

On Fri, 2009-10-16 at 06:55 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> ...
> I use GPG a lot, but it is actually more complicated than just "always
> encrypt".  What if no key is available, should it complain or just
> silently not encrypt?

It complains to me when the recipient key is not found and asks me to
change send options.

> What if multiple keys match: should it fail,
> prompt user to select a key, or silently just pick one [the later
> seems bad]?

It picks recipient key based on the email address. I've not much idea
what it does when you've more than one key for a person, though it
definitely doesn't ask you to pick one.

> ...
> Personally, using GPG a lot, I'd much rather have Seahorse
>  included in GNOME and integrated
> better with Evolution.  I *love* Seahorse.  Finally an app that makes
> managing crypto stuff not painful.

I'm wondering whether such integration might fix all the above or not.
Did you try to set 'use-agent' in your: ~/.gnupg/gpg.conf
If I recall correctly it uses something from seahorse. But I might be
wrong here.

Oh, and thanks for all the pointers to bugzilla. It really seems to be a
long run, as you said.
Bye,
Milan

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Re: [Evolution] names change using LDAP

[Milan Crha]

On Sun, 2009-10-18 at 17:33 +0200, Lars Schade wrote:
> ...
> Is there any reason not to use a schema exactly matching the evo GUI
> or, alternatively, sticking to a general vcard schema and adjusting
> the evo GUI accordingly? 
> ...

Hi,
as far as I can tell, there is a schema file to support evolution fields
fully (or mostly?) on the LDAP server, it's located at:
$PREFIX/share/evolution-data-server-2.XY/evolutionperson.schema
Maybe you've it installed already, I do not know, but I would expect if
your LDAP server will know this schema, then you'll be able to use more
fields to enter in a contact. (Do not ask me how to install the schema,
I've no idea about that.)

The behavior you described, the one about saving and reloading misuses
fields, I would call it a bug, deserving filling.

I'm sorry for a foolish question, but just in case: Evolution is trying
to interpret parts of a fullname as respective attributes, unless you
enter it divided by the "Full name" edit window, which is shown when you
click the "Full name" button on the first tab. Is it the place where you
check the field misinterpretation after reload of the contact from an
LDAP server? And if no, filling attributes this way, will be they
changed on reload too?
Bye,
Milan

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Re: [Evolution] New makefile for building Evolution from GIT

[C de-Avillez]

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:10:25 -0400
Paul Smith  wrote:

> 
> So, this is more of a debugging aid at this point than a true stable
> replacement.  I'm looking for folks who are intrepid and maybe know a
> bit about building software and makefiles, who'd like to give it a try
> and let me know what's broken/missing/etc.  If that's you let me know
> and I'll send you a copy.

Hi Paul,

Yes, I am willing to check it (and actually use it). Can you please
send me the Makefile?

Thanks (and thank you very much for your work on that, beats jhbuild by
a long shot).

Cheers,

..Carl..


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[Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the "control-L" function

[Ben May]

All this discussion of top versus bottom posting got me thinking. If
there's ALREADY a function in evolution specifically for replying to
mailing lists, couldn't we add configurations where you set:

For regular reply or reply-to-all: {Use top posting / Use bottom
posting}
For reply-to-mailing lists (ie: control-L): {use top posting / use
bottom posting}

Just a thought. :)

-  


Benjamin May
Sr. Research Analyst
+(212) 851-4772
ma...@columbia.edu



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Re: [Evolution] evolution 2.28 starts automatically in off-line mode! howto change that?

[Bernhard Kleine]

Am Montag, den 19.10.2009, 18:37 -0430 schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
> On Mon, 2009-10-19 at 19:50 +0200, Bernhard Kleine wrote:
> > You are correct. NM is running and does not show the e100 eth0
> > interface. Thanks for pointing me into the correct direction!
> 
> Glad it worked. Just note that you replied directly to me and not the
> list.
> 
> poc

Well, I replied directly to your mail. In your email the reply-to-header
was not set to evolution-l...@gnome.org.
In my original email not either :-) I have to adhere more strictly to
netiquettes.

Now I wonder whether there is an manual for NetworkManager since I could
not find one on the programs homepage.

Thanks again for the correct tip!

Greetings Bernhard

-- 
Bernhard Kleine 


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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the "control-L" function

[Matthias Apitz]

El día martes, octubre 20, 2009 a las 02:32:59 -0400, Ben May escribió:

> All this discussion of top versus bottom posting got me thinking. If
> there's ALREADY a function in evolution specifically for replying to
> mailing lists, couldn't we add configurations where you set:
> 
> For regular reply or reply-to-all: {Use top posting / Use bottom
> posting}
> For reply-to-mailing lists (ie: control-L): {use top posting / use
> bottom posting}

Why do you think that top posting to non-mailing-list recipients
is a good idea (and that some clueless or careless or others
are doing that this is no real argument)?

> Just a thought. :)

Really a thought? :-)

matthias
-- 
Matthias Apitz
«...una sola vez, que es cuanto basta si se trata de verdades definitivas.»
«...only once, which is enough if it has todo with definite truth.»
José Saramago, Historia del Cerca de Lisboa
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the "control-L"function

[Derek McDaniel]

>
> El día martes, octubre 20, 2009 a las 02:32:59 -0400, Ben May escribió:
>
> > All this discussion of top versus bottom posting got me thinking. If
> > there's ALREADY a function in evolution specifically for replying to
> > mailing lists, couldn't we add configurations where you set:
> >
> > For regular reply or reply-to-all: {Use top posting / Use bottom
> > posting}
> > For reply-to-mailing lists (ie: control-L): {use top posting / use
> > bottom posting}
>
> Why do you think that top posting to non-mailing-list recipients
> is a good idea (and that some clueless or careless or others
> are doing that this is no real argument)?

Its much easier to top post to non-mailing list clients. You need to
realize, most people are not computer savy and don't care about the
"netiquette" as much as Linux users do. I wont bottom post to a client or
anyone that's not on an email list. They get confused and it makes more work
for me to try and explain it. 90% of all users I email use top post except
for mailing lists.

> > Just a thought. :)
>
> Really a thought? :-)
>
>   matthias
> --
> Matthias Apitz
> «...una sola vez, que es cuanto basta si se trata de verdades
> definitivas.»
> «...only once, which is enough if it has todo with definite truth.»
> José Saramago, Historia del Cerca de Lisboa
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>
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the "control-L"function

[Matthias Apitz]

El día martes, octubre 20, 2009 a las 02:57:10 -0400, Derek McDaniel escribió:

> Its much easier to top post to non-mailing list clients. You need to
> realize, most people are not computer savy and don't care about the
> "netiquette" as much as Linux users do. I wont bottom post to a client or
> anyone that's not on an email list. They get confused and it makes more work
> for me to try and explain it. 90% of all users I email use top post except
> for mailing lists.

I'm not a Linux user, but FreeBSD. You are right in one statement:
It's more easier to top post (with browser-like MUA, like OutLook,
Evo or any webmail in a real browser). The problem is that these
MUA are buggy or wrong coded. A good MUA (good in the sense of following
standards and netiquette) would:

1. include correctly marked the text (like your text above)
2. add the signature correctly started with "-- ", note the blank,
   (like mine below)
3. put the write mark (cursor) between the included text and the
   signature)

OutLook, for example, put the write mark on top of all, people start
to key-in and don't care about where they type. In addition they are
to clueless/careless/lazy to remove included text, because they would
have to mark this painfull with the mouse.

All this would not happen if you use a realy good MUA (like 'mutt')
and a good text editor (like 'vim'), as I do.

In addition: if you don't explain the clueless what they are
doing wrong, the world would not improve.

matthias
-- 
Matthias Apitz
«...una sola vez, que es cuanto basta si se trata de verdades definitivas.»
«...only once, which is enough if it has todo with definite truth.»
José Saramago, Historia del Cerca de Lisboa
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the "control-L" function

[Art Alexion]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 14:32 -0400, Ben May wrote:
> All this discussion of top versus bottom posting got me thinking. If
> there's ALREADY a function in evolution specifically for replying to
> mailing lists, couldn't we add configurations where you set:
> 
> For regular reply or reply-to-all: {Use top posting / Use bottom
> posting}
> For reply-to-mailing lists (ie: control-L): {use top posting / use
> bottom posting}
> 
> Just a thought. :)

I would say, "no", because though I am often an offender when I reply
from my Blackberry, I think bottom posting is best in every situation
you can.  And most of the time you can even make it readable to Outlook
users with judicious trimming.

-- 
Art Alexion
Resources for Human Development, Inc.  215-951-0300 x3075
4700 Wissahickon Ave. a...@rhd.org
Philadelphia, PA 19144   267-615-3172
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Re: [Evolution] evolution 2.28 starts automatically in off-line mode! howto change that?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 20:48 +0200, Bernhard Kleine wrote:
> > Glad it worked. Just note that you replied directly to me and not
> the
> > list.
> > 
> > poc
> 
> Well, I replied directly to your mail. In your email the
> reply-to-header was not set to evolution-l...@gnome.org.

It's the same with every message on this list. You are expected to use
Reply-to-List (Ctrl-L), or if your MUA doesn't support it then
Reply-to-all (Shift-Ctrl-R). See the recent discussion on the evils of
Reply-To munging by list management software.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Art Alexion]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 14:57 -0400, Derek McDaniel wrote:
> They get confused and it makes more work
> for me to try and explain it. 90% of all users I email use top post
> except
> for mailing lists.

You can minimize that confusion with proper trimming.  With Evo (to get
this back on topic), trimming is easy because all you have to do is
select your quote before hitting reply.

I noticed that you did not trim at all.  That may be the reason for your
readers' confusion.


-- 
Art Alexion
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Art Alexion]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:10 -0400, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> All this would not happen if you use a realy good MUA (like 'mutt')
> and a good text editor (like 'vim'), as I do.

Matthias, I am clueless as to why you monitor and participate in this
list devoted to Evo if you use mutt and vim, and believe that evo is a


> browser-like MUA, like OutLook,
> Evo or any webmail in a real browser). The problem is that these
> MUA are buggy or wrong coded. 
> 
> 

-- 
Art Alexion
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Derek McDaniel]

> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 14:57 -0400, Derek McDaniel wrote:
> > They get confused and it makes more work
> > for me to try and explain it. 90% of all users I email use top post
> > except
> > for mailing lists.
>
> You can minimize that confusion with proper trimming.  With Evo (to get
> this back on topic), trimming is easy because all you have to do is
> select your quote before hitting reply.
>
> I noticed that you did not trim at all.  That may be the reason for your
> readers' confusion.

Posting from Outlook. Couldn't get Evo to stop crashing on me long enough to
use it. I'm sure its something to do with what I installed later but I have
my build exactly how I want it and I can't be bothered with changing it
right now.

Plus, I prefer not to trim because if I am on my BB, and I didn't read the
first post, I can read the middle and understand the gist of everything.

> --
> Art Alexion
> Resources for Human Development, Inc.  215-951-0300 x3075
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> Philadelphia, PA 19144   267-615-3172
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the "control-L" function

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 14:32 -0400, Ben May wrote:
> All this discussion of top versus bottom posting got me thinking. If
> there's ALREADY a function in evolution specifically for replying to
> mailing lists, couldn't we add configurations where you set:
> 
> For regular reply or reply-to-all: {Use top posting / Use bottom
> posting}
> For reply-to-mailing lists (ie: control-L): {use top posting / use
> bottom posting}
> 
> Just a thought. :)

That's actually an interesting idea. The arguments about top/bottom
posting are less persuasive in a one-to-one exchange. On lists however
it's much more important to try to encourage community standards.

I had a brief discussion with some of the devels a while back on this
topic. I took the view that Evo encourages top-posting because it places
the cursor at the top of the reply. They responded that that wasn't
really the idea, since the poster is meant to edit the quote (removing
irrelevant material and inserting comments) and that's easier to do from
the top down. Nevertheless they did agree to include a Preference option
to place the cursor at the bottom. See "Preferences->Composer
Preferences->Start typing at the bottom when replying".

The odd thing is that the option is grayed out in 2.26.3. The even odder
thing is that I've only just noticed this! Sometimes what looks like a
great idea turns out not to be that useful in practice.

However I do like your proposal of doing this for list replies. Maybe
you should request an enhancement at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

poc

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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:33 -0400, Derek McDaniel wrote:
> Plus, I prefer not to trim because if I am on my BB, and I didn't read
> the first post, I can read the middle and understand the gist of
> everything.

Am I the only one getting that's getting a *really* bad feeling about
the long-term effect of the BB on email in general? Outlook was bad
enough, and now we have to make allowances for people on phones?

poc

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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Derek McDaniel]

> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:33 -0400, Derek McDaniel wrote:
> > Plus, I prefer not to trim because if I am on my BB, and I didn't read
> > the first post, I can read the middle and understand the gist of
> > everything.
>
> Am I the only one getting that's getting a *really* bad feeling about
> the long-term effect of the BB on email in general? Outlook was bad
> enough, and now we have to make allowances for people on phones?
>
> poc


Tech support is much easier to carry around a BB than it is to carry around
a laptop. Its the way things are moving in general. I would much rather read
my email on the go.

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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Matthias Apitz]

El día martes, octubre 20, 2009 a las 03:28:53 -0400, Art Alexion escribió:

> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:10 -0400, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> > All this would not happen if you use a realy good MUA (like 'mutt')
> > and a good text editor (like 'vim'), as I do.
> 
> Matthias, I am clueless as to why you monitor and participate in this
> list devoted to Evo if you use mutt and vim, and believe that evo is a

This, using Evo, is required because in business I have to use an
Exchange server with IMAP and SMTP disabled. Ofc, Evo behaves better
than OutLook and I know that I can mark text before hitting reply
(but only one part of the old text). But even with this, editing
is a pain in Evo when you are used to real text editors, like vim.
Only one example: with .,$d i.e. with 5 key strokes I can remove
all from the actual line until the end of the text. An with one
key 'u' I get it back.

matthias

-- 
Matthias Apitz
«...una sola vez, que es cuanto basta si se trata de verdades definitivas.»
«...only once, which is enough if it has todo with definite truth.»
José Saramago, Historia del Cerca de Lisboa
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the "control-L" function

[Paul Smith]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:02 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> ... They responded that that wasn't
> really the idea, since the poster is meant to edit the quote (removing
> irrelevant material and inserting comments) and that's easier to do from
> the top down. Nevertheless they did agree to include a Preference option
> to place the cursor at the bottom. See "Preferences->Composer
> Preferences->Start typing at the bottom when replying".
> 
> The odd thing is that the option is grayed out in 2.26.3. The even odder
> thing is that I've only just noticed this! Sometimes what looks like a
> great idea turns out not to be that useful in practice. 

I don't see the advantage to leaving the cursor at the top for editing
purposes in Evolution.  If Evo implemented real keyboard-based text
editor operations like Emacs or vi, then maybe, but Evo's composer is a
graphical editor, so who cares where the cursor is when you want to make
major edits to the text?  You're going to use your mouse to select and
cut etc. anyway so cursor position at the start is irrelevant.

Personally my favorite Evo-only feature (at least I've not seen other
mail clients who use it) is how if you select a part of the message then
reply, then only that part is quoted in your reply.  If you get used to
this feature, then the likelihood that you'll want to do FURTHER editing
is greatly reduced... so I always set "start typing at the bottom" as
that's what I almost always want to do.

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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the "control-L"function

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 21:10 +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> El día martes, octubre 20, 2009 a las 02:57:10 -0400, Derek McDaniel escribió:
> 
> > Its much easier to top post to non-mailing list clients. You need to
> > realize, most people are not computer savy and don't care about the
> > "netiquette" as much as Linux users do. I wont bottom post to a client or
> > anyone that's not on an email list. They get confused and it makes more work
> > for me to try and explain it. 90% of all users I email use top post except
> > for mailing lists.
> I'm not a Linux user, but FreeBSD. You are right in one statement:
> It's more easier to top post (with browser-like MUA, like OutLook,
> Evo or any webmail in a real browser). The problem is that these
> MUA are buggy or wrong coded.

Horde, a web-based MUA, bottom posts and quotes just fine.

> All this would not happen if you use a realy good MUA (like 'mutt')
> and a good text editor (like 'vim'), as I do.

Or a good GUI client like Evolution.


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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Reid Thompson]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 21:43 +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> This, using Evo, is required because in business I have to use an
> Exchange server with IMAP and SMTP disabled. Ofc, Evo behaves better
> than OutLook and I know that I can mark text before hitting reply
> (but only one part of the old text). But even with this, editing
> is a pain in Evo when you are used to real text editors, like vim.
> Only one example: with .,$d i.e. with 5 key strokes I can remove
> all from the actual line until the end of the text. An with one
> key 'u' I get it back.
> 
>   matthias
> 

use the external editor plugin configured to use gvim.
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Ben May]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:41 -0400, Derek McDaniel wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:33 -0400, Derek McDaniel wrote:
> > > Plus, I prefer not to trim because if I am on my BB, and I didn't read
> > > the first post, I can read the middle and understand the gist of
> > > everything.
> >
> > Am I the only one getting that's getting a *really* bad feeling about
> > the long-term effect of the BB on email in general? Outlook was bad
> > enough, and now we have to make allowances for people on phones?
> >
> > poc
> 
> 
> Tech support is much easier to carry around a BB than it is to carry around
> a laptop. Its the way things are moving in general. I would much rather read
> my email on the go.
> 


The whole point of my suggestion is that I like choice, as do a lot of
others. We'll NEVER get the bottom-posters to agree that anything other
than bottom-posting is acceptable, and you'll NEVER get people who
aren't aware of the argument or who are agnostic to its outcome to
follow all the rules unless they're enforced by ALL clients which will
never happen.

So why not please all parties as best as possible? :)

-  


Benjamin May
Sr. Research Analyst
+(212) 851-4772
ma...@columbia.edu

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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Derek McDaniel]

> The whole point of my suggestion is that I like choice, as do a lot of
> others. We'll NEVER get the bottom-posters to agree that anything other
> than bottom-posting is acceptable, and you'll NEVER get people who
> aren't aware of the argument or who are agnostic to its outcome to
> follow all the rules unless they're enforced by ALL clients which will
> never happen.
>
> So why not please all parties as best as possible? :)
>

Best idea yet. The problem I have found with Linux users is that they are an
"Elitist" group and believe there way is the ONLY way. While I agree with
the bottom posting, I also realize that users out there just don't care. I
am not going to waste my time telling them bottom posting is the ONLY way to
go. I, being the good tech that I am, do my emails based on the client  or
based on my BB.

The reason Linux will NEVER become uniformed and Microsoft will always stay
on top, is because of the Elitist groups of Linux users who push people away
from Linux. No one I know will try Linux because its too hard to use or
because the user base is too pushy when it comes to getting help.

Derek

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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the "control-L"function

[Chris G]

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 02:57:10PM -0400, Derek McDaniel wrote:
> 
> >
> > El día martes, octubre 20, 2009 a las 02:32:59 -0400, Ben May escribió:
> >
> > > All this discussion of top versus bottom posting got me thinking. If
> > > there's ALREADY a function in evolution specifically for replying to
> > > mailing lists, couldn't we add configurations where you set:
> > >
> > > For regular reply or reply-to-all: {Use top posting / Use bottom
> > > posting}
> > > For reply-to-mailing lists (ie: control-L): {use top posting / use
> > > bottom posting}
> >
> > Why do you think that top posting to non-mailing-list recipients
> > is a good idea (and that some clueless or careless or others
> > are doing that this is no real argument)?
> 
> Its much easier to top post to non-mailing list clients. You need to
> realize, most people are not computer savy and don't care about the
> "netiquette" as much as Linux users do. I wont bottom post to a client or
> anyone that's not on an email list. They get confused and it makes more work
> for me to try and explain it. 90% of all users I email use top post except
> for mailing lists.
> 

I generally bottom post (or interleave) back to almost everyone, the
only exception is occasional places where I'm asking about something I
have bought.  Everyone seems to understand me OK.

Interleaving replies makes so much sense, I've even persuaded my wife
that top posting/replying causes errors, which it does.


-- 
Chris Green

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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Chris G]

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 03:28:53PM -0400, Art Alexion wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:10 -0400, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> > All this would not happen if you use a realy good MUA (like 'mutt')
> > and a good text editor (like 'vim'), as I do.
> 
> Matthias, I am clueless as to why you monitor and participate in this
> list devoted to Evo if you use mutt and vim, and believe that evo is a
> 
Maybe he's like me.  I use mutt for my E-Mail but (sometimes) use
Evolution because it can synchronise with a Palm.  In addition my wife
uses Evolution and I'm her "system support" person.

-- 
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[bgzgnome]

Matthias Apitz wrote:

> Only one example: with .,$d i.e. with 5 key strokes I can remove
> all from the actual line until the end of the text. An with one
> key 'u' I get it back.

I love vim!  Just wanted to make sure I clarified that first.  And, I
didn't know about .,$d - very cool.  I've just typed a big number
expected to exceed the number of lines like 999dd to do the same.

Having said that, delete to end is hold Shift and Ctrl then press and
release End then press Del.  Four keys vs 5.
--
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the "control-L"function

[bg]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 12:46, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 21:10 +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> > El día martes, octubre 20, 2009 a las 02:57:10 -0400, Derek McDaniel 
> > escribió:
> > 
> > > Its much easier to top post to non-mailing list clients. 

bg:

That is an astonishing piece of nonsense verbiage. The place to which
you are directing your post does not have the slightest influence
on how easy or how difficult top or bottom posting might be.
Your emailer reply edit function works exactly the same whether
you are sending your email to a single individual or to a list.

And it works the way it does, positioning the cursor at the
top of the message being replied to, so as to encourage you to
snip out the irrelevant portions of that message on your way
down to starting your reply. The positioning of the cursor
there does not mean that that is where you start your reply.

Brewster
-- 
***
Embrace a sharing community of sustainable low-carbon diversity
***
W. Brewster Gillett b...@fdi.usPortland, OR  USA
***
Simply because you don't like to hear it, that doesn't make it untrue.
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting

[bg]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 12:32, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

> I took the view that Evo encourages top-posting because it places
> the cursor at the top of the reply. 

bg:

Only for the irremediably clueless and rude, or those who haven't
had the reason pointed out to them.

PO:

> They responded that that wasn't
> really the idea, since the poster is meant to edit the quote (removing
> irrelevant material and inserting comments) and that's easier to do from
> the top down. 

bg:

They were exactly right. 

PO:

> Nevertheless they did agree to include a Preference option
> to place the cursor at the bottom.

bg:

Huge error in judgment, if you ask me, from a human factors engineering
viewpoint - guaranteed to encourage the lazy and
clueless to abandon any inclination to trimming forevermore.

Brewster
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***
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Art Alexion]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 16:07 -0400, bgzgn...@sf.porterfield.net wrote:
> delete to end is hold Shift and Ctrl then press and
> release End then press Del.  Four keys vs 5.

I can do it it with 3 -- 2, if you count combos as 1.
Shift+End,Del

Undo it, Ctrl+z.

Moreover, it works like every other text editor I use so I don't need
the additional step of looking up an arcane key combo.

I do all of my root editing in the console.  I use ne, because it uses
the same key commands as my other editors.
-- 
Art Alexion
MIS   
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Art Alexion]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:43 -0400, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> El día martes, octubre 20, 2009 a las 03:28:53 -0400, Art Alexion
> escribió:
> 
> > On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:10 -0400, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> > > All this would not happen if you use a realy good MUA (like
> 'mutt')
> > > and a good text editor (like 'vim'), as I do.
> >
> > Matthias, I am clueless as to why you monitor and participate in
> this
> > list devoted to Evo if you use mutt and vim, and believe that evo is
> [so bad]
> 
> This, using Evo, is required because in business I have to use an
> Exchange server with IMAP and SMTP disabled.

Matthais,

Weren't you the one chastising me for using a work-mandated Blackberry?


-- 
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Matthias Apitz]

El día martes, octubre 20, 2009 a las 04:20:51 -0400, Art Alexion escribió:

> I can do it it with 3 -- 2, if you count combos as 1.
> Shift+End,Del
> 
> Undo it, Ctrl+z.
> 
> Moreover, it works like every other text editor I use so I don't need
> the additional step of looking up an arcane key combo.
> 
> I do all of my root editing in the console.  I use ne, because it uses
> the same key commands as my other editors.

Maybe, I used the wrong example.

Can I yank some 100 lines and push them back in another place:
with 100yy .
or can I change in all text Evo with the word mutt: 1,$s/Evo/mutt/g
or can I read-in a text file with :r filename

and don't point me to mouse and menues :-)

Evo's composer has a lot of features, but fare away from being
a text editor in a xterm.

matthias

-- 
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«...una sola vez, que es cuanto basta si se trata de verdades definitivas.»
«...only once, which is enough if it has todo with definite truth.»
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Sean]

Reid Thompson wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 16:07 -0400, bgzgn...@sf.porterfield.net wrote:
>> Matthias Apitz wrote:
> try dG

Wow, that's even better!  Totally OT now, but I love vim more and more.  :)
--
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Matthias Apitz]

El día martes, octubre 20, 2009 a las 04:23:28 -0400, Art Alexion escribió:

> > This, using Evo, is required because in business I have to use an
> > Exchange server with IMAP and SMTP disabled.
> 
> Matthais,
> 
> Weren't you the one chastising me for using a work-mandated Blackberry?

Don't know, because my name is Matthias;

but, yes, I have to use Evo for work, but not for
OpenSource mailing list like this here; and I do use Evo at work
it in a netiquette style;

matthias
-- 
Matthias Apitz
«...una sola vez, que es cuanto basta si se trata de verdades definitivas.»
«...only once, which is enough if it has todo with definite truth.»
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Art Alexion]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:35 -0400, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:33 -0400, Derek McDaniel wrote:
> > Plus, I prefer not to trim because if I am on my BB, and I didn't
> read
> > the first post, I can read the middle and understand the gist of
> > everything.
> 
> Am I the only one getting that's getting a *really* bad feeling about
> the long-term effect of the BB on email in general? Outlook was bad
> enough, and now we have to make allowances for people on phones?

The BB tries to emulate Outlook because it is aimed at Exchange users
who are usually Outlook users.

As an editor, it is worse than Outlook (which is worse than anything
else) because it prohibits (not merely discourages) trimming and bottom
posting.

Overall though, depending on your perspective, it is better than Evo
because I don't constantly have misreported message totals and corrupted
indicies.  That is, it is more stable, if not as elegantly featured.

My shop used to use Palm phones, but we switched to the BB because of
superior stability and easier for IT to support.  It wasn't because we
liked the interface more.  They are just more reliable.

The iPhone seems to have come a long way.  It even features select to
quote, and is quite stable.  I haven't tried the Palm Pre or any of the
Google Android phones.  I thought the OpenMoko/Neo phones were merely
theoretical, because, until someone on this list mentioned one, I have
never heard of an actual sighting.

-- 
Art Alexion
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[George Reeke]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 22:34 +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> El día martes, octubre 20, 2009 a las 04:23:28 -0400, Art Alexion escribió:
> 
> > > This, using Evo, is required because in business I have to use an
> > > Exchange server with IMAP and SMTP disabled.
> > 
> > Matthais,
> > 
> > Weren't you the one chastising me for using a work-mandated Blackberry?
> 
> Don't know, because my name is Matthias;
> 
> but, yes, I have to use Evo for work, but not for
> OpenSource mailing list like this here; and I do use Evo at work
> it in a netiquette style;
> 
>   matthias

Could we please drop this thread about top vs bottom posting and
which editor is better--I think the issues have been hashed out
well enough for most of us on this list.
Thanks,
George Reeke


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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Matthias Apitz]

El día martes, octubre 20, 2009 a las 04:35:56 -0400, Art Alexion escribió:

>   I thought the OpenMoko/Neo phones were merely
> theoretical, because, until someone on this list mentioned one, I have
> never heard of an actual sighting.

I use an Openmoko FR as my daily and only mobile phone.

matthias

-- 
Matthias Apitz
«...una sola vez, que es cuanto basta si se trata de verdades definitivas.»
«...only once, which is enough if it has todo with definite truth.»
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the "control-L" function

[Art Alexion]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:47 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
> Personally my favorite Evo-only feature (at least I've not seen other
> mail clients who use it) is how if you select a part of the message
> then
> reply, then only that part is quoted in your reply.  If you get used
> to
> this feature, then the likelihood that you'll want to do FURTHER
> editing
> is greatly reduced... so I always set "start typing at the bottom" as
> that's what I almost always want to do.
> 

Among my favorite features as well, and I rarely edit "after" hitting
reply.  It is, however, supported by kmail, Apple Mail.app, iPhone Mail
3.x, and Thunderbird (with a plug in), to my knowledge.  Maybe more
clients which I have never tried.

Ironically, thinking back 15-18 years ago, it was the aol users we hated
because their mailer didn't quote anything and it was hard to gauge
context.  You would get an email that just said, "yes" from someone you
hadn't recently asked a question.

-- 
Art Alexion
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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 13:08 -0700, bg wrote:
> > Nevertheless they did agree to include a Preference option
> > to place the cursor at the bottom.
> 
> bg:
> 
> Huge error in judgment, if you ask me, from a human factors
> engineering viewpoint - guaranteed to encourage the lazy and
> clueless to abandon any inclination to trimming forevermore.

It's not like it's enabled by default.

Also, people seem perfectly capable of ignoring the calls to trim quoted
material when the cursor is at the top, so I really don't see that it
makes any difference. Conscientious posters will still do it right, and
the rest will still do it wrong.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the "control-L" function

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:47 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
> Personally my favorite Evo-only feature (at least I've not seen other
> mail clients who use it) is how if you select a part of the message
> then reply, then only that part is quoted in your reply.

I also love this, but it's not unique to Evo. TB 3 has it as well
(finally) and I think Kmail too.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the "control-L" function

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 16:50 -0400, Art Alexion wrote:
> Ironically, thinking back 15-18 years ago, it was the aol users we
> hated because their mailer didn't quote anything and it was hard to
> gauge context.  You would get an email that just said, "yes" from
> someone you hadn't recently asked a question.

I still get those :-)

poc

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Re: [Evolution] top versus bottom posting and the"control-L"function

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 15:51 -0400, Reid Thompson wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 21:43 +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> > This, using Evo, is required because in business I have to use an
> > Exchange server with IMAP and SMTP disabled. Ofc, Evo behaves better
> > than OutLook and I know that I can mark text before hitting reply
> > (but only one part of the old text). But even with this, editing
> > is a pain in Evo when you are used to real text editors, like vim.
> > Only one example: with .,$d i.e. with 5 key strokes I can remove
> > all from the actual line until the end of the text. An with one
> > key 'u' I get it back.
> > 
> > matthias
> > 
> 
> use the external editor plugin configured to use gvim.

Not yet available in stable versions of Evo (at least on Fedora, which
is what I use).

poc

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