Re: [Dng] Use/misuse of depends
cyteen wrote: > I was wondering about the policy of some packagers to use depends rather > than recommends in a case where an upstream source has added support for, > but not a reliance on, some service. I can understand that a build-dep on > the dev package would be seem desirable but in the case of pulseaudio and > avahi for instance it makes them almost impossible to remove without gutting > your system. > > I understand that these may not be at the top of devuans agenda but I'm > interested in the general policy to be taken it someone were to undertake to > repackage more reasonably. Also, I recall that in a default Debian install, recommended packages are pulled in by default. A setting change makes it possible to only pull in the package dependencies. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Use/misuse of depends
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 12:19:24AM +, Noel Torres wrote: > On Tuesday, 13 de January de 2015 20:25:25 hellekin escribió: > > On 01/13/2015 02:23 PM, Joel Roth wrote: > > > Also, I recall that in a default Debian install, recommended > > > packages are pulled in by default. A setting change makes it > > > possible to only pull in the package dependencies. > > > > *** Are you suggesting that Devuan should use that setting and not pull > > in Recommends automatically? In short, I think there could be situations, a minimum install or limited bandwidth that a naive user might appreciate the ability to build up a system more frugally. > > cat > /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/70befrugal << > # Don't pull in Recommends by default > > APT::Install-Recommends "0"; > > # Don't pull in Suggests by default > > APT::Install-Suggests "0"; > > EOD > > We all, and specially packagers, should remember what is what in Debian's > dependency system, and what do we want for Devuan. > > * Pre-Depends: a package must be installed and correctly configured "before > even starting the installation of the package which declares the pre- > dependency" > > * Depends: "A Depends field takes effect only when a package is to be > configured." "This declares an absolute dependency. A package will not be > configured unless all of the packages listed in its Depends field have been > correctly configured" > > * Recommends: "The Recommends field should list packages that would be found > together with this one in all but unusual installations" > > * Suggests (and Enhances): "This is used to declare that one package may be > more useful with one or more others" > > As of this, we should all remember the exact point of Recommends is that the > dependency is not absolute, but must be honoured almost always. This is why > the setting is to always install recommends, and leave to the UA (or VUA) to > decide not to install a specific Recommends package. During installation, we have a choice of levels of install. Some people want to install a lightweight system. If they choose minimum install, probably they would appreciate a default of installing minimum dependencies. On the user forums, we will have to answer either, "How can I install less?" or "How can I install more?" I can see that the desktop-coocoon-oriented folks would want to install recommended packages, and recall it was a recent decision to make that a Debian default. A more parsimonious default (or choice) would certainly be a help to naive users with limited bandwidth. For ongoing administration, I see we have the --no-install-recommends option to apt-get. I would add --install-recommends to have in parallel with --install-suggests. So you could ramp up installing dependencies: 1. apt-get install pkgname 2. apt-get install pkgname --install-recommends 3. apt-get install pkgname --install-suggests cheers Joel > Regards > > er Envite > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] sugestion apulse as pulseaudio replcement
Steve Litt wrote: > Guys, in the past I've tried to get Jack running about four or five > times, and never succeeded. This included the sound studio version of > Ubuntu. I'm sure that Jack is perfect for the dedicated sound > enthusiast, but for the average guy, Jack just might be the only thing > that could cause more failure than Pulse. Jack is very, very > complicated. Steve, I think you confuse your bad luck in getting started with Jack being complicated. If you have ALSA working, and Pulse Audio is not running, it is very simple to get sound from Jack. 1) start jackd 2) test play some sound, e.g. ecasound -i test.wav -o jack,system Having JACK serve transparently as the back end with ALSA or Pulse Audio virtual devices available for client programs *is* more complicated. Jack is most useful in music production, when you want to connect multiple audio applications together. I don't run it for routine listening, but you can, if your applications support it or you use some compatibility layer over it. Will be happy to help you, if you need it. Just post to the appropriate list. Linux Audio User is the best. Cheers, Joel > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] sugestion apulse as pulseaudio replcement
John Holland wrote: > Thanks for this info,it got me further with Jack than I > ever have gotten before! Do you have any tips on how to > route jack sound to an hdmi output? (The outp u t works > with raw alsa) Even if you don't have a sound card, you can test jackd with jackd -d dummy To associate the JACK daemon with your soundcard, you need to first find the device name. cat /proc/asound/cards Look for what is listed in square brackets. On my notebook: 0 [MID]: HDA-Intel - HDA Intel MID HDA Intel MID at 0xf262 irq 43 1 [Loopback ]: Loopback - Loopback Loopback 1 29 [ThinkPadEC ]: ThinkPad EC - ThinkPad Console Audio Control ThinkPad Console Audio Control at EC reg 0x30, fw 6IHT37WW-1.12 I usually want audio device 0, called "MID" (not to be confused with MIDI, a data format for digital music.) jackd -d alsa -A MID So, you just have to find your HDMI device name and plug that in. Hope that helps, -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. GRUB is brilliant, and complicated. I recently had an issue with update-grub hanging on trying to read from a swap partition, or some such. Every Debian upgrade would run update-grub, and hang the system. Reported it, okay, but then as a workaround looked into LILO. It is *very* capable, boots my system without drama. What exactly do you need? > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
Steve Litt wrote: > Svante Signell wrote: > > > On Fri, 2015-01-30 at 17:39 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > > > > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. > > > > So, what's the problem with grub? > > No problem with Grub. Grub2 is the problem. Millions of files messing > with millions of variables, and sometime following the instructions of > which programs compile those files and which program puts it on the > mbr/guid or whatever it's called actually works. > > I can probably find you five different ways in the Internet to change > the font size on booting, and none of them works. > > Just like systemd, it's great if someone else does it for you, it's > horrific if you have to do some DIY. Hi Steve, Beside the bug that caused me to jump ship, I didn't find GRUB too bad. Just instead of one config file you have lots of them. :^) The old GRUB with one config file was slightly more convenient. Getting a kind of command shell from GRUB is amazing, really very cool. However, there is a cost in complexity. Not everyone wants to learn all the ins and out of this large system. For Devuan, I would advocate and support a long-term interest in LILO. I think we would want to allow people solve their problems with less and simpler code. Joel > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Towards systemd-free packages
Jude Nelson wrote: > Hey everyone, > > Is there a list somewhere that has the packages in Jessie that depend on > some part of systemd? I'd like to get the ball rolling on compiling out > systemd dependencies for Devuan packages, but I don't want to duplicate > anyone's efforts. > > Maybe a good first step would be to get a list of these packages through > APT, and then group them by the degree to which they depend on systemd? I > suspect most packages can simply compile out support (like Gravis said in > another thread), but I know there are some that will need some > functionality replaced (like Xorg with libsysdev) and some that will need > to be replaced outright in the medium-term (like udev). > > I can get working in this list in a few days if no one else can. Hi Jude, Someone used info from apt to generate these graphs showing package dependencies on systemd components. http://imgur.com/a/Wi1zb They're not authoritative, as they only apply to the software he had installed on his system, but are are a reasonable starting point. Regards, Joel > > Thanks, > Jude > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
Isaac Dunham wrote: > Or just: > apt-get install icewm > > Comes up and works *right* out of the box, though it might not look > like everyone's first choice (the default theme is rather gray.) > > You can add shortcut keys in ~/.icewm/keys: > key "Shift+Print" scrot -u -b > key "Print" scrot icewm++ I found it easy to set up menus for my dad to start abiword, mozilla, to cancel print jobs, shutdown, etc. My first choice for systems accessible to naiive users. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] systemd free badge
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:08:04AM +0100, Jaromil wrote: > hello i just thought of sharing a simple idea see if > anyone likes to get started at it: how about designing a > badge that all distros that are systemd free can show? > > this is not strictly Devuan related, but will benefit > people willing to understand such an important > architectural aspect of a distro without wasting too much > time with its docs > > I also think such a badge should be different from the > without-systemd logo and more like a positive assertion. > perhaps it should not really be about systemd, but init > freedom more in general, as in distros allowing to have > the choice to safely remove all systemd or even download a > systemd-free flavour. Good idea! Brainstorming here, I'm thinking about "Coke Classic". So, what are the classical (or traditional) things we are preserving by excising systemd? Classical Unix Architecture Classical Unix Administration Classical Unix Services Classical Unix Security Classical/traditional AASS means "you don't need to hire special consultants, just competent Unix developers/administrators." Cheers, > ciao > -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 23/02/2015 14:04, Nuno Magalhães a écrit : > >On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Ста Деюс wrote: > >>But, at the first, what is planned to perform to protect «Devuan» from > >>the guys, that got hold of the fantastic project «Debian»? In other > >>words, if the guys come to «Devuan» and by their cruelty will start > >>to «help» some of developers to corrupt the project, do abnormal, > >>unnatural for the project things -- similar like constitution of > >>«Debian» appeared, finnaly the «systemd» was forcibly set up: how we > >>will protect our project? > >Very good question. > >___ > > > I think this question goes together with the badge or logo question. It > must go beyond "sans-systemd"; > it is more about principles. Let's list some: > > - freedom of choice, > - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, > - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum > > Don't know if KISS goes into details, but maybe it could inspire the > logo. KISS Linux? -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 03:54:56PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 07:47:32AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: > > Didier Kryn wrote: > > > > > > Le 23/02/2015 14:04, Nuno Magalhães a écrit : > > > >On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Ста Деюс > > > >wrote: > > > >>But, at the first, what is planned to perform to protect «Devuan» from > > > >>the guys, that got hold of the fantastic project «Debian»? In other > > > >>words, if the guys come to «Devuan» and by their cruelty will start > > > >>to «help» some of developers to corrupt the project, do abnormal, > > > >>unnatural for the project things -- similar like constitution of > > > >>«Debian» appeared, finnaly the «systemd» was forcibly set up: how we > > > >>will protect our project? > > > >Very good question. > > > >___ > > > > > > > I think this question goes together with the badge or logo question. > > > It > > > must go beyond "sans-systemd"; > > > it is more about principles. Let's list some: > > > > > > - freedom of choice, > > > - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, > > > - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum > > > > > > Don't know if KISS goes into details, but maybe it could inspire the > > > logo. > > > > KISS Linux? With some cute logo (borg penguin? matrix penguin?) and some slogans. Linux is great. Keep it simple. Keep it unix. > Unless the band has an objection to the use of its trademark. > Unlikely, since we're in a different business entirely. > > Unless, of course, we choose to use the band's logo as well... > -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 06:02:16PM -0500, Gravis wrote: > > http://www.saynotogmos.org/ss/penguins/trio.png > > ha! it just needs words like "Linux: Strut your stuff" [?] I thought of photoshopping in a jail out of which they are walking. > --Gravis -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 04:32:36PM -0500, Neo Futur wrote: > > *** Why is everybody looking for the One Ring to Rule Them All? Can't > > we have unity through diversity? Are we all subject of Mordor's torpor > > and subjugation? > > which makes me think some kind of broken ring, or melted ring, could > be an idea for the devuan or rootslinux logo . . . breaking free from > the evil mordor ring that attacked the community . . . It could be the One Ring, or it could be The Matrix. I think penguins walking out of jail gives a similar idea, while using a more universal symbol. Perhaps I should try my hand at photo-shopping, err.. gimping it. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 12:05:32AM -0500, Gravis wrote: > > My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in > > a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd > > is. You can't get rid of them Having them don't cost much, IMO. A lot of the Debian infrastructure is written in perl. In Gobo Linux, the system administration software is written in shell. Utility for administrating Nix are written in Nix language. > this is actually something i'm looking into fixing. my preference > would be to make a standard POSIX base to build upon. the LSB is a > bad joke. As a basis for building Linux distributions? You may look into Automated Linux from Scratch http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/alfs/ cheers > --Gravis > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:49 PM, T.J. Duchene wrote: > > On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 18:11 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > > >> > >> With all respect, T.J., those are merely programming languages--shell, C > >> and C++ are also "hard to extract"--but none are trying to dictate > >> policy. > > > > I would not consider C in that group, as the system actually requires > > the C library for the OS to function on the most basic level, not to > > mention that the kernel, Perl and Python are actually written in C. > > > > My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in > > a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd > > is. You can't get rid of them, without pulling a DIY. Linux as a > > platform does not require them to function. > > > > What makes it relevant to the conversation is that it is all about > > attitude. They are enthusiastically endorsed by communities that refuse > > to acknowledge that either can be as much of a hindrance as a help in > > many cases. For example, Python as a programming language is designed > > specifically to dictate how you do things, i.e. Zen of Python: "There > > should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it." > > > > Sometimes Linux can be its own worst enemy. > > > > > >> Other tools we're familiar with also dictate policy at some level such > >> as dpkg and apt, however, the authors of those tools don't start > >> throwing around the term "haters" whenever someone sets out to compile > >> from source outside of their policy. Do you see the difference? > > > > There is some truth to that, but you can revisit that virtually anywhere > > there are fanboys/fangirls. The fact that few authors like LP can use > > the term "haters" to divert attention from the real issues, and then get > > a free pass just shows how easily the issue has polarized others and how > > easily the "sheeple" are manipulated into going along. > > > > t.j. > > > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 08:18:59PM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 12:05:32AM -0500, Gravis wrote: > > > My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in > > > a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd > > > is. You can't get rid of them > > Having them don't cost much, IMO. > > A lot of the Debian infrastructure is written in perl. In > Gobo Linux, the system administration software is written in > shell. Utility for administrating Nix are written in Nix language. > > > this is actually something i'm looking into fixing. my preference > > would be to make a standard POSIX base to build upon. the LSB is a > > bad joke. > > As a basis for building Linux distributions? > You may look into Automated Linux from Scratch > > http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/alfs/ And interesting to find that the LFS "books" exist in regular and systemd flavors. http://wiki.linuxfromscratch.org/alfs/wiki/SupportedBooks The jalfs software hasn't been undated changed since 2009, however the LFS books are current. > cheers > > > --Gravis > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:49 PM, T.J. Duchene > > wrote: > > > On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 18:11 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> With all respect, T.J., those are merely programming languages--shell, C > > >> and C++ are also "hard to extract"--but none are trying to dictate > > >> policy. > > > > > > I would not consider C in that group, as the system actually requires > > > the C library for the OS to function on the most basic level, not to > > > mention that the kernel, Perl and Python are actually written in C. > > > > > > My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in > > > a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd > > > is. You can't get rid of them, without pulling a DIY. Linux as a > > > platform does not require them to function. > > > > > > What makes it relevant to the conversation is that it is all about > > > attitude. They are enthusiastically endorsed by communities that refuse > > > to acknowledge that either can be as much of a hindrance as a help in > > > many cases. For example, Python as a programming language is designed > > > specifically to dictate how you do things, i.e. Zen of Python: "There > > > should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it." > > > > > > Sometimes Linux can be its own worst enemy. > > > > > > > > >> Other tools we're familiar with also dictate policy at some level such > > >> as dpkg and apt, however, the authors of those tools don't start > > >> throwing around the term "haters" whenever someone sets out to compile > > >> from source outside of their policy. Do you see the difference? > > > > > > There is some truth to that, but you can revisit that virtually anywhere > > > there are fanboys/fangirls. The fact that few authors like LP can use > > > the term "haters" to divert attention from the real issues, and then get > > > a free pass just shows how easily the issue has polarized others and how > > > easily the "sheeple" are manipulated into going along. > > > > > > t.j. > > > > > > ___ > > > Dng mailing list > > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > -- > Joel Roth > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Beginning of Devuan Dmenu Howto
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 12:11:46PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 00:50:04 -0500 (EST) > Peter Olson wrote: > > > > On March 2, 2015 at 12:07 AM Steve Litt > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > In a previous thread I discussed the usefulness and productivity of > > > using dmenu in parallel with the hierarchical menu. I'm about 1/4 > > > done, all of it dmenu general and not specific to Devuan, because I > > > still don't know how Devuan's dmenu package will look. > > > > Does dmenu act without me pressing Enter? > > Thank you for pointing out an error in my documentation. I was > confusing dmenu with UMENU. I will quickly fix my documentation. > > In fact, dmenu DOES NOT act without your pressing Enter. > > My bad. > > > I'm wondering what happens > > when I make a typo that happens to match the name of a program I > > never heard of. > > Unless you press Enter, nothing happens after the typo, except the > wrong list elements get deleted, and Backspace gets you back to where > you were before the typo. I note that the i3 window manager has this feature, binding to SpecialKey d. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
ware in highly > abstracted languages (usually the interpreted sort) has diminishing returns. > I feel that they have been overused in the Linux ecosystem as whole. My > whole rant is really just chatting with the community and seeing if anyone > else shares that opinion. If you don't personally, that's just fine by me. > =) > > > Have a great day! > t.j. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Default configuration for Devuan PulseAudio
Not sure who is packaging PA for Devuan, but this minimally invasive configuration works for me, and looks like a good fit as a Devuan default, in that it doesn't take over the ALSA default device. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PulseAudio/Examples#PulseAudio_as_a_minimal_unintrusive_dumb_pipe_to_ALSA N.B. The Arch Linux Wiki has great documentation for Linux audio. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?
Steve Litt wrote: > What would especially float my boat, once there's a truly depoetterized > Devuan, is to have the package manager warn me at 160 decibles if I > decide to install something that pulls in any systemd code, because if > there's a way to run without systemd code, that's how I want to run, > even if it means someday I can no longer use Gnumeric or Gimp. > > Let me give an analogy that's absolutely offtopic here, I use it only > as an analogy. Three years ago, I made a policy that no KDE library or > software would ever exist on any of Troubleshooters.Com computers, any > computers owned by Steve Litt, or any computers owned by family members > who expected me to be their IT department. For the most part, I simply > never install a package beginning with "k". But once in a while I > install an excellent sounding package, only to see it starting to pull > in KDE Krap, have to Ctrl+C out of it, and then go back and > painstakingly remove everything my install put there. My life would > have been easier if the package manager told me THIS PACKAGE HAS KDE > REQUIREMENTS, PROCEED N/y. apt-get gives a list of packages to be installed, and how many MB of software is involved. That is a good solution for 90% if not 99% of users. If you really want to avoid KDE|systemd|bloatware Probably you could hack apt using pining or similar technique to prevent bloatware-base from ever being installable, thereby preventing any bloatware based libraries from being installed. In that case, it wouldn't be optional. I think apt-get sources are perl, so should be easy to hack on. Cheers, Joel > In the same way, I'd like a big old warning from any package that > brought in systemd code of any kind, and that *is* ontopic here. > > I think a very simple way is to put all packages that pull in systemd > code, directly or indirectly, in a "contaminated" repository, and have > that repository not enabled by default. This way, everyone gets their > choice of how much or how little poetterization they want, and nobody > accidentally gets a smarmy, fast talking read headed bespecticled bug > in their operating system. > > And once again, I'd like to state the opinion that getting anything > working that will long term be systemd-encumbered should be a much > lower priority than depoetterizing what we can. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Puppy Linux-related thoughts - was Re: API: was (for who knows what reason): Dng Digest, Vol 6, Issue 75
Apollia wrote: > I've also increasingly been considering trying to build my own Linux from > scratch, probably using this website as a guide: > http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ There are more automated ways to do this: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/alfs/ You may be interested to know that Gobo Linux is based on ALFS. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [dng] vdev status update and milestone
Jude Nelson wrote: > Hey everyone, > > I'm pleased to announce that vdev can successfully boot to a console on the > Devuan vagrant image! It creates all requisite device files and loads all > requisite kernel drivers, both for the pre-boot initramfs environment (so > init can mount root) and in the early boot environment (while root is > mounted read-only). I'd like to thank you all for your patience and > support, with a special shoutout to the individual who goes by the name > "Scooby" on this list who helped me find and fix early-boot bugs. Thanks Jude. I think it's a great contribution to the community. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Why daemontools is so cool
marc wrote: > > No need to mix doubleforking and PID tracking on your > > program. That should be the duty of whatever daemonizes and manages > > your program. You know, like Daemontools or s6. > > So there is a very good reason for a deamon to handle its > own backgrounding: The sensible convention is it that it > should only background at the instant where it is ready to > service requests: If there is a long initialisation phase > it should stay in the foreground - so that things that > depend on it in turn do not get started too soon. A more > detailed description of this problem I wrote up a while ago > at welz.org.za/notes/on-starting-daemons.html. Nice write up. Explains the issues clearly. > More fundamentally: If an application has problems calling the > a daemonize() or fork_parent() function or the handful of system > calls that make up this, then maybe this a limitation of the > development environment or language - if calling these this is regarded > to be hard then one wonders how reliable the rest of the program is. > > regards > > marc > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What about pulseaudio, avahi, ... ?
On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 01:47:17PM +0300, Jack L. Frost wrote: > > devuan is not about depoetterizing, it's about freedom of choice. Since > > systemd deprives user from his freedom to choose init system (and a lot of > > other subsystems) it has to go. For the rest devuan doesn't care - as long > > as > > it doesn't as well introduce conflicts with alternative packages. > > My point exactly. Pulse is completely optional. Well, there is still a problem with dependencies created by a Suggests or Recommends, combined with a policy that automatically installs those packages. On my system, reverse depends for pulseaudio shows such packages as mpg123, which shouldn't have an opinion about which audio system you use, and initramfs-tools-tcos, which appears to have no connection with audio at all. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What about pulseaudio, avahi, ... ?
On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 07:28:27PM +0200, Stephan Seitz wrote: > On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 07:15:38AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: > >On my system, reverse depends for pulseaudio shows such > >packages as mpg123, which shouldn't have an opinion about > > But mpg123 neither depends on nor recommends pulseaudio. It only suggests > pulseaudio together with jackd, alsa-utils and other packages. Yes that is only a "suggests" relationship, so not a good example. Funny tho, it shows up as a reverse depends listed by apt-cache showpkg. initramfs-tools-tcos, OTOH, recommends pulseaudio. I think we may have had a discussion about whether recommended packages should pulled in by default. I remember there are options for installing dependencies only, installing dependences plus recommended packages, and installing dependencies with recommended and suggested packages. As a process, I would like to install the minimum dependencies by default, and then if I don't get all the features I need, have options to add in the recommended and suggested packages. I think it might be helpful to document or prompt the user to set whether recommended package should be installed. Or punt, and leave it to more advanced user to figure out. Somehow the politics of pulling in recommends seems to overlap with the issue of the web of dependencies spread by systemd. Cheers, Joel > Happy eastern everyone! > > Stephan > > -- > | Stephan Seitz E-Mail: s...@fsing.rootsland.net | > | Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html | > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What about pulseaudio, avahi, ... ?
On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 10:34:00PM +0200, toto titi wrote: > I do not have any problem at the present time. It's just that I don't > like the programmes written by LP. > I don't trust him. I don't want Linux to become a new W1nd0w$. > He's obfuscating the system's behaviour. That could be a wiki article, "Configuring Devuan to Use Alternatives to LP Software Packages" -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 08:18:29AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 12:36:22AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: > > Personally on debian i was using from date > > > > APT:Install-Recommends "0"; > > APT:Install-Suggests "0"; > > > > in all my install apt.conf. > > > > I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required > > but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded > > envs, but also on my desktop. > > > > What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? > > > > Hi, > > please go on. Always hated to have too much garbage installed. Note that for a minimal dependencies default, the options to apt-get are not ideal. We have these two options related to the dependency graph. --no-install-recommends Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends. --install-suggests Consider suggested packages as a dependency for installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Suggests. Looks like we need to add this: --install-recommends Consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends. cheers, Joel > HND > > KatolaZ > > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] > _______ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Who/what is welcome on this list?
T.J. Duchene wrote: > I am getting the general impression from on and off the list, that my > comments are not welcome here, and that my continued presence is a > distraction. Very well. I was going to give it some more thought, but I > think it would be best if I simply left the list by the end of the day. > Anything I do with Devuan will be discussed elsewhere. I'll stay on the > list long enough to finish wrap up a few comments with Jeromil, and a few > others. Trying to understand the issue(s) here. First, T.J. is a VUA, so deserving of basic respect and welcome unless by some specific behaviors threatens the group. In the absence of official statutes, these are IMO decisions to be taken at the discression of the list owner. Second, I've noticed that the emotional tone of what T.J. writes is generally even. I don't see him getting hot, cold, bitter, etc. I don't see much use of hyperbole, sarcasm, ALL CAPS!! or other troll-worthy behaviors. So probably it is the content of what T.J. says that sets some people off, and these people are angry at being pulled into arguments with him. They can't or don't want to kill-file him, or perhaps are afraid he is spreading a malign influence on vulnerable others. Are these the people who we should satisfy? Regardless of the immediate outcome, it is worth asking what, exactly, is the problem with T.J.'s posts. I see much harder fought battles on the perl5-porters over technical decisions. People may be temporarily banned for personal attacks and certain other bad behaviors, while every effort is made to attend to the person's technical opinions. Because there are specific definitions of unacceptable conduct, the actions of the list-owner or moderators can be principled rather than essentially personal. We have few enough VUAs already that it seems wasteful to hound out qualified folks who have diverse views and happen to be prolific posters. Regards, Joel > Take care, and no hard feelings. > > T.J. > > > > > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
On Fri, Jun 05, 2015 at 01:13:51AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > From a legal point of view, I would also carefully refrain from > redistributing any non-free firmware in Devuan, the main reason being > that usually you *don't* have the right to redistribute it, and even > if you have got this right from the HW constructor, such right can be > withdrawn any moment at their own will, which might be a quite > unpleasent surprise for Devuan... Hi KatolaZ and others, Since many other Linux distributions include firmware without any special agreement, I think there is a reasonable precedent for including such files, although certainly this could be more thoroughly researched. If, for considerations regarding free software, Devuan releases *two* boot disk images, I would suggest they be named something like DevuanWorksBetter.iso and DevuanMayWork.iso so that people will know what to expect. In which case, for manpower reasons, Devuan may opt to release only the WorksBetter version, and develop MayWork in response to future user demand or legal requirement. IMO, the decision will ultimately rest on those actually doing the work. Regards, Joel > HND > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Sound (Was: My experience with Devuan Alpha2)
1753 62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1 > > iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJVlSrwAAoJEKZ8CrGAGfasIYEMAIft1+/8EKpoPPorvg3emaSM > ks87070VUy4ysGQfHOw+L5zafS/QUUt+aSMTcQreyIZx9eQCzBuCwem6+mQhQ4Gh > 5pCriFWZNTahXLBAcyDOnRZXvZBTQTFtmL6JbE6SkGIzFR1VCpf4FkiJ8GA9Gg6K > 3z2owklM5xf0qBMeR4/RHfepBAGk9h24IXGNQYAH9/iYARAqkj0Tmhmv/uxQtyo1 > RbhE5pFLOUEyTJ+NPev3MthOs4rpn3HWbqKhIGTUvbrKek97eIpcT/fko+z63Z2r > EC0K4/QuOjbUepDV4jBaN7AbetoCHO4sylyMp5AVUeYy1oYZFevVIGP9Si0Tgh5n > PDg41UX81pjjBRFaFJgg9PXdVOEqTWUr7f+glg6PHrZMAz4Mk9JQ4xanFD3f2l68 > dfgVewLWZ0ddM5vsfMCGFB2QFTkhMJG+ZmTiwG+/VLKEIYVqV5IxBFHQpcbKvMLq > 219bZxaBsDM51RLJx0rX0LtKffiavtLwG5NvphJM+Q== > =EnCN > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] OT: Terminal application for multitrack audio (was Re: Sound (Was: My experience with Devuan Alpha2))
Gregory Nowak wrote: > I'd love to do everything in the text console, but some things are > lacking there, such as a useable modern web browser for example. I went over > to the GUI on GNU/linux a number of years ago in the hopes of being to > dump M$ windows, but that's not possible yet, even though enormous > progress has been made with orca during that time. It isn't my intent > to complain here. I just want to explain why going with a lighter > desktop isn't an option for me at the moment as far as I know. Not sure what other apps you're looking for on a text console, so I'll put in a mention of Nama, a fairly versatile multitrack DAW that includes a terminal interface. https://freeshell.de/~bolangi/cgi1/nama.cgi/00home.html There is a version packaged for Debian, but way stale, better to install from CPAN or build from github sources. Cheers, Joel > Greg -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Sound (Was: My experience with Devuan Alpha2)
Klaus Ethgen wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > Am Do den 2. Jul 2015 um 18:40 schrieb Joel Roth: > > > For example the localizing problem. I use tu have a locale that has the > > > "," as decimal divider. Now, I have to write floating point values in > > > .asound with a "," instead of a "." to get parsed but then, the code > > > behind the parser does not know what to do with the ",". > > > > If you are a casual user of ALSA, you won't need *any* .asoundrc. > > Well, if you need sound in multiple applications, you need to configure > that under alsa in that file. If you have more than one or two speaker, > you need to configure that in this file and so on. > > But true, if you just have one audio source and one or two speakers, you > don't need that file /usually/. > > > > Another problem are the kernel panics that happens very often within > > > alsa. The best what I get was about one hour between panics. Usual I get > > > panics and oops after two minutes. > > > > This is probably specific to your system/kernel/hardware. > > ALSA is used very widely and reliably. More likely you need > > help to troubleshoot your system. > > I don't think so. Without alsa, my systems are all very stable. It is > only alsa that adds instability in all kernels, independend if they are > from the distribution or if they are self compiled. > And if you have a look at the code of alsa, you do not wounder about > this instabilities. > > > You can try asking on the Linux Audio Users mailing list. > > No. I wrote some bug reports years ago but currently I don't care > anymore. There is a far better sound system with OSS4 that is just > working, has sound multiplexing without fiddling with some broken config > files and much better sound quality. Good you found a solution. I will be interested to try it out. Cheers, Joel > And I gave alsa several tries in the past, not only one. > Regards >Klaus > - -- > Klaus Ethgen http://www.ethgen.ch/ > pub 4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16 Klaus Ethgen > Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753 62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1 > > iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJVlk+jAAoJEKZ8CrGAGfasNmQMAMOL26HTRAZzFhHLe/5l0deH > 9/TqLY0WUjpxkPlo0bkWOqaG+xChbOQmAxfPjCQmLAlIxw+8gHMs6anYaiKVgPNq > vbgeJbsUsKPgVVGeYsaZHh1Z4V2eKbV10pF+1Oa72wIiZuloSSlbR3s53RcwpCE8 > a7jwb06PXqRBAy4WCcJ/YtQPq45NUofj8KWAXoIqoP5m+RPSREwz8Qdu8bWTZBBd > srpE6fT3oos9/iiHGeFLiIJ6LJIoFxI2DDAdq2ItOkKqOqUEzDcVH0ARXQ83r/UX > HTSabiHZqJcNiQXpjKzsQt+RvqgyHnUcQAeMdBZ+dkTy5nTap6NuogUB7ygnr1Es > 4GQ7M0aLVk0b0HU9W1aykqVySytwbErpoQxCdR0xM3H0JC3dABjiyote2iW90VWa > nY3frZXDnVNMQjrqqzqgp0XuAIDX/ZLPHRtEfJ/NTGRG3OS32HJkCIOLUUjpxDxk > hbLPQcvbI/0QMVBnRJyEHxW2kLPwfPs/C9ZV1T2sGw== > =Wuj8 > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed editor change
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:45:03AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:51:50AM +0200, Martial Bornet wrote: > > If Devuan is intended to respect the Unix philosophy, it must include "vi" > > in the default installation, and not as an optional package. > > Why not propose a choice for those who want another editor ? > > I have no problem with vi in the default installation. I have problems > with vi as the default editor -- the one a vi-novice is pitched into > when the system asks him to edit something. > > Neither emacs nor vi are suitable for this. > > Once the user has a chance to choose, he can choose whatever he wants > as default. No problem. I notice that vipw and visudo default to vi. Honoring EDITOR or VISUAL environment variables by default would be a security hole, according to the man page. > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > 2015-07-15 18:56 GMT+02:00 Hendrik Boom : > > > > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:29:26AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: > > > > - Original Message - > > > > > From: "Franco Lanza" > > > > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:35:03AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: > > > > >> Which is Devuan intended to be? > > > > >> > > > > >> 1) Debian without systemd > > > > >> 2) A Debian-like distro > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Nor 1 or 2. > > > > > Devuan is intended to be a debian that respect: > > > > > 1- freedom of choice > > > > > 2- UNIX philosophy > > > > > 3- KISS philosophy > > > > > > > > > > Of course first of all those 3 points make systemd unacceptable. But > > > > > saying that devuan is just "debian withous systemd" is riductive. > > > > > > > > > > traditionally UNIX has vi, this is why i'm suggesting it. No packages > > > > > needs to be changed at all for this eventual switch, and anyway, > > > > > as devuan respect the users, this choice isn't an imposition from "the > > > > > hight", but it's a question to the whole ml userbase to listen > > > pro/cons. > > > > > > > > In that case, my next question would be "Do we want to cater to those > > > > who > > > > are new to Linux/Unix?" If yes, then nano is a good choice. If no, > > > > then > > > > vi is a good choice. > > > > > > It not just Unix newbies that have trouble with vi. It's anyone used > > > to a editor different from vi. > > > > > > > > > > > I don't like using nano, and always install vim, followed by > > > > 'update-alternatives'. But I remember as a new user being frustrated > > > > that I couldn't follow a simple how-to because I didn't know how to use > > > > vi. When I discovered nano, it was a huge relief. > > > > > > I don't like using nano either, and always install emacs. But I > > > imagine that to new user, emacs might also be extremely frustrating. > > > Having nano as default before I've had a chance to install anything > > > else is a huge relief. > > > > > > > > > > > I don't mind defaulting to nano for the sake of new users, even if nano > > > > isn't what I want to use. I know how to change the defaults. A new > > > > user does not. > > > > > > Exactly. Let's not force any editor with a steep learning curve > > > on the beginner. Is there another editor as easy to *start* using as > > > nano? > > > > > > And let's not try to impose a one-sided settlement on the vi vs emacs > > > cotroversy. > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > > > -Rob > > > > ___ > > > > Dng mailing list > > > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > ___ > > > Dng mailing list > > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
Steve Litt wrote: > On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:39:05 +0200 > Michael Bütow wrote: > > > I am sure if someone wants to expend the energy to get rid of D-Bus > > related software in Devuan, they can set up their own spin of it. > > For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that > getting rid of it would involve something like the following: (other steps) > get rid of ALSA to get away from dbus, and use OSS with snd_mixer_oss > and rexima. ALSA doesn't depend on DBus. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] GTK (was Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?)
y computer science innovations that can help me, whether its objects, grammars, exception handling, testing or version control. Each brings new possibilities for bugs, and overhead to develop and maintain, but I think there are good reasons people value these innovations. Perhaps I misunderstand your complaints, or perhaps I'm fortunate to be using a language where those complaints are less applicable. Perl is currently blessed/cursed with many object frameworks, and it appears there is a lot of work finding how to get the most benefit for the least pain. So while it's still being hashed out, I think no one in the Perl, Ruby or Python communities who knows how to use OOP would willingly give up this paradigm. Again, it's been interesting to read your take. Please keep on posting! Cheers, -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xargs guide
Steve Litt wrote: > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/xargs.htm Funny, that I used xargs so many years without ever looking at the man page. Thanks for publishing these examples! -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] multichannel audio i/o management w/o pulse/dbus
Gregory Nowak wrote: tilt! wrote: > > Hello, > > > > subject says it all. > > > > Are there currently ongoing efforts to have that? > > > > If no, I will start one, if yes, I want to join it. > > How about alsa/dmix? Some folks here have mentioned oss4 before, but I > haven't used that myself. Regarding dmix: A very interesting and potentially extremely useful aspect of this plugin is using it combined with the default plugin name [now default behavior IIUC.] In theory this means all applications that have native ALSA support will share the sound device. In practice not many applications are able to take advantage of this functionality yet. source: http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Asoundrc Dmix is enabled by default for soundcards which do not support hardware mixing. Dmix is not enabled by default for digital output (S/PDIF) and will require the configuration snippet below source: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture There is a limitation, is that the app(s) have to access the soundcard via named PCM device: ecasound -i test.wav -o alsa,default # multiple invocations okay Direct access to soundcard doesn't get the dmix plugin, so only one app has access at any given time. ecasound -i test.wav -o alsa,hw:0,0# exclusive access required What dmix doesn't do (and pulseaudio does) is provide a separate volume control for each application. cheers, Joel > Greg > > > -- > web site: http://www.gregn.net > gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc > skype: gregn1 > (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) > If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your > contacts. > > -- > Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] multichannel audio i/o management w/o pulse/dbus
tilt! wrote: > Hello! [summary of ALSA features snipped] > d Since the setup in asoundrc is static in nature, dynamically >assigning a multichannel routing, for example through an >interactive volume control, to a specific application is >something I would not immediately know how to accomplish. ALSA, cannot know how many output or input channels an application will have. Pulse audio support includes exchanging that information using dbus. I think it's a problem on the application side if it won't route to named ALSA PCM device. It's not only ALSA's fault if an application won't let you specify the sound device. But ALSA does offer OSS emulation that many apps use, via device node /dev/dsp. You don't mention what you want to accomplish specifically, or why you were using JACK. It may be easier to solve your specific problems, before trying to generally improve the configuration of the audio services under Devuan. In that case, you would be better off, IMO writing to Linux Audio Users, where you could get authoritative answers. Regards, Joel -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] multichannel audio i/o management w/o pulse/dbus
Hendrik Boom wrote: > How many audio systems does Linux have now? > > Does any of them have really low latency -- the kind you need if you > are programming the synthesizer inside a live-performance musical > instrument? A lot of people do use Linux for live performance. The soundcard DAC/ADC adds some latency. The vanilla kernel is fairly good WRT latency, and depending on your needs you can compile your own kernel (or find an optimized one) for slightly lower latency. Unlike proprietary frameworks, JACK lets different apps play together without fuss. If you're hooking together several components via JACK, each connection adds the latency associated with one buffer (actually it depends on the buffer size times the number of periods, which are command-line arguments to jackd). JACK itself doesn't add latency, and has an API for reporting latencies at different nodes of the audio network, so that it can be compensated. You do need a decent soundcard to be able to do live performance. The authoritative fora for working with these issues are the Linux Audio Users and Linux Audio Developers mailing lists. As the developer of a lightweight DAW with a text interface, I've followed these lists for several years and heard a lot of music produced using Linux. With the incredible flexibility and variety of apps currently available, I would go so far as to say it's a golden age for Linux audio :) cheers, Joel > -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] multichannel audio i/o management w/o pulse/dbus
richard white wrote: > I have use OSS4 on a few machine and have been very satisfied, but not a > lot with multichannel. I appreciate the separate volume controls for each > application, > > Maybe this could help: > http://manuals.opensound.com/developer/multichannel.html Glad to hear that OSS4 works for you. I look forward to experimenting with it on my new installation (currently blocking on problems getting it to boot.) FWIW, if you need a stereo to 5.1 converter or something similar, we have one for Ecasound, developed by Patrick Shirkey. And also in Nama, an Ecasound-based DAW. Hope you can find a way to get what you want. The Linux Audio Users list is the authoritative forum. > Also, here's is some good information for supporting OSS (Although a little > old): > http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/06/state-of-sound-in-linux-not-so-sorry.html thanks for posting this. cheers, Joel > -Rich > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] non-systemd Linux for newbies with good migration tool?
Isaac Dunham wrote: > LXDE is close to the classic interface, but so is IceWM (my own first > pick for window manager.) I like IceWM, because it's so easy to configure menus. I set up some menus for my dad, that he's been using unchanged for a decade. The biggest problem was setting a larger cursor, and even the larger one I did find is barely big enough for him to see. (As another example of an accessibility pet peeve: on the huge back panel my wife's iMac, the logos for MIC and HEADPHONES are vanishingly tiny. Who are they developing for? Not someone older or working in dim light!) Not sure how that translates into a good default for Devuan, but I vote for the principle of least twitchiness. Since any default cannot satisfy everyone, something that satisfies the lowest common denominator is good, inclusive of the old and us "retards" who lag behind the ever advancing curve of bloodened early adopters. Cheers, Joel -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] the devil is in the details.
On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 04:14:39PM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote: [...] > But one thing I did pick up on, one of the reasons given > for not having any subdivision was a desire to not have to > have documented and stable APIs. I find that "a tad > off-putting" because in the projects I used to work in > (many many years ago, working as a very junior engineer in > a shipyard supplying the navy with bespoke vessels) that > would have been one of the earliest parts to be nailed > down - split the "blob" into small parts, each doing > something understandable and testable, and have them all > communicating via fixed* and documented interfaces. > * Fixed, as in "can be changed if it has to, but it'll need all the change > control that goes with it". > Reading that the ability to change internal APIs on a whim is seen as a > positive attribute suggests to me that this isn't something that's been > designed before it's been built. > I know our methods weren't what you might call "agile", but they were > intended to give some expectation of reliability. I understand that systemd developers guarantee some APIs, such as DBus, and others are less constrained. I think the idea is to keep stable the interfaces most important to external developers. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Alpha2 Build Success -- Works for me, too, amd64 on T430
Hi devuan community, I used the freely available minitool partition wizard bootable CD to shrink the windows 7 partition. I finished partitioning with the devuan installer, installed jessie amd64 using LILO bootloader without incident using the expert mode. Created some swap space, tho not sure I need it, as this Lenovo T430 has 16GB of memory. I installed xfce unintentionally. I see that systemd and libpam-systemd were installed. Removing them kicks triggers for dbus, but no other obvious effects. For me, this was the easiest basic install of a Debian family OS in recent memory. The remainder of the install will entail installing a large list of packages, and porting over the /etc and /home directories of my previous system. Looking forward to install vdev, netman and other devuan-aligned packages as they become available (or maybe try compiling them.) Thanks for the excellent work, -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism
dev1fan...@use.startmail.com wrote: > 2) Configure minimalism in the system > > Thanks to a tip given to me by a fellow minimalist from #debianfork (unnamed > for now until I talk to them) you will be able to debloat your system in a > very neat way. (...) > First use an editor to make the necessary changes: > > root@devuan:~# nano /etc/apt.conf.d/01lean > > Add the following lines: > > APT::Install-Suggests "0"; > APT::Install-Recommends "0"; > APT::AutoRemove::SuggestsImportant "false"; > APT::AutoRemove::RecommendsImportant "false"; This led to losing quite a bit of fat in my system. I'm waiting to see what breaks! -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Architecture question and other installation issues
Hi Devuaners, I installed devuan following dev1fanboy's guide and ended up with an amd64 kernel and i386 package binaries. First of all, I'm curious if those choices are explicit in the installer. (I thought had I asked for amd64.) My main question is this. Now I want to compile some software that requires amd64. I've already added the architecture using 'dpkg --add-architecture amd64' and then apt-get update. When I tried this 'apt-get install gcc:amd64' I got this error: The following packages have unmet dependencies: gcc:amd64 : Depends: cpp:amd64 (>= 4:4.9.2-2) but it is not going to be installed Depends: gcc-4.9:amd64 (>= 4.9.2-1~) but it is not going to be installed E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages. Is it possible to somehow convert the entire toolchain (or even installation) to amd64, or do I need to go back to the installer? I'll piggyback another installation question: how do people port their /etc when starting from a pristine installation? I used to just overwrite everything in the new /etc with the old, then fix what ever would break. Years ago, I'd written a script to compare directory trees, reporting which files belong solely to tree A, which solely to tree B, and to report when the file content or timestamp at a particular path differs between the trees. However it doesn't check file type such as links, etc. Is there are usual way to do this? I'm thinking it makes sense to use git for the purpose, to see changes and have a choice to restore them if necessary file by file. I could also see wanting to have per-directory repositories. Managing /etc is certainly one of the signature administrative tasks of a Unix system. I know it still throws me anytime when I try to fix something, hack at /etc/someprogram for a while and find the issue is related to a setting in /etc/default/someprogram. Maybe I'll write a script to comment at the top of each config file that has a /etc/default/ sibling so that /etc/someprogram would get this. ### WARNING!! Additional settings for this service may be found in /etc/default/someprogram. I'll close here. Thanks to all who are developing and working with Devuan! Cheers, Joel -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Problems with devuan alpha2 installer
Hi all, After recently installing the i386 flavor of devuan, I tried again with the amd64 version. This time I encountered problems. First, I managed to clobber the partition table. At one point the installer asked me if this was a GPT partition table. I wasn't sure and said yes. Then at some point the partition table was overwritten. That may have been a mistake on my part, but I think it's worth noting that this is the first time in 20 years that the debian installer has led to this level of destruction. After I repaired the disk and booted the installer, the install aborted with a package dependency problem that I recall involved systemd, udev and dbus. Apt was looking for a particular package version, and the version number of the available package had a -devuan suffix that apt rejected. I ended up installing stock Jessie, which I will later convert to devuan. I wonder if others have encountered this issue, and whether this is the appropriate forum for reporting it. Kind regards, Joel -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Problems with devuan alpha2 installer
On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 02:59:12PM +1300, Daniel Reurich wrote: > Hi Joel > On 29/11/15 13:16, Joel Roth wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > After recently installing the i386 flavor of devuan, > > I tried again with the amd64 version. > > > > This time I encountered problems. > > > > First, I managed to clobber the partition table. > > At one point the installer asked me if this was > > a GPT partition table. I wasn't sure and said yes. > > Then at some point the partition table was overwritten. > > > That's interesting. Are you sure that the partition table hasn't ever > been gpt (perhaps a left over from a previous install or a Window 7 pro > installation)? It was a notebook with Windows 7 installed. I shrunk the partition. Now Windows 7 is gone, leaving more space on my precious SDD :-) > > That may have been a mistake on my part, but I think > > it's worth noting that this is the first time > > in 20 years that the debian installer has led to > > this level of destruction. > > I've done a lot of debian and devuan installs, and the time that > question appears is if you select the disk itself rather then the > partitions, in which case you are then prompted what type of partition > table to use, and it's good that it should default to gpt. So I do > think you may have made a mistake there. There were some diagnostics given: this looks like GPT and that looks like GPT, is this a GPT partition table? > > After I repaired the disk and booted the installer, the > > install aborted with a package dependency problem that I > > recall involved systemd, udev and dbus. Apt was looking for > > a particular package version, and the version number of the > > available package had a -devuan suffix that apt rejected. > > What suite did you select jessie (stable), ascii (testing), or ceres > (unstable)? > There is a currently known issue with ascii and ceres regarding the > version of dbus. I am in the process of resolving that issue at the > moment. Yes, the second time I did the install I went with testing. > You didn't happen to keep the logs? They are contained in > /var/log/installer. That would be extremely helpful. Sorry, no. The installer informed me that some errors appear in /var/log/syslog. Perhaps it should also mention /var/log/installer. > > I ended up installing stock Jessie, which I will later > > convert to devuan. > > That is sad to hear of your experience, I hope we can do better. Thanks. We all know (or should know) that installing operating systems is a perilous process. > > I wonder if others have encountered this issue, and > > whether this is the appropriate forum for reporting it. > > This is one forum to report it. If you could raise an issue here: > https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/Installer_Feedback/issues Sounds like you are already onto the problem. I could report, but as you see, have few technical details. > (This is a newly created space for providing feedback where the > installer maintainers will be notified and able to respond. You will be > required to register for git.devuan.org tho)... Thanks for your response, and contributions to Devuan! > Kind regards, > Daniel > > -- > Daniel Reurich > Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. > 021 797 722 > -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Our friendly community
Brian Nash wrote: > Regardless of whether John is a troll, this list seems to be tearing > itself apart at the slightest provocation. > Perhaps people here are more stressed than they let on. > Perhaps _certain people_ should cut them some slack. I read that you are appealing for moderation, while using provocative language yourself. Is that your intention? -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] dh_make & git are cute maintainer tools
Hi Edward, Debian has an amazingly complex toolchain. I am happy that my own project (written in Perl) could be handled by the Debian perl team. I did go through all those debian/ files before. If you find a similar package to serve as a model, you can get a lot from that. Quilt, while cool, adds another layer. Since you are the upstream author, you should be able to all patching at that level, and avoid quilt entirely. Cheers, Joel Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi, > > I am someone who is, unfortunately slow to learn new things, as my > obstinacy was always on making logical sense out of what I learn. > > However, I am pleased to note that now, I can create rudimentary > Debian packages. Next time, it will be some reading about the > mysterious and bewitched debian/ subdirectory and what is the purpose > of the most commonly used files. > > A simple and yet instructive reading would help place the foundations > for a deeper understanding. I have to assimilate the basics first. > > Running dh_make creates a debian subdirectory filling it with numerous > files. Most of these files are a mystery to me as I have still no idea > what purpose they serve. However, running git commit on a local > repository, and then running git-buildpackage does produce a .deb > package, but without more knowledge, I am still too uninformed to do > any useable maintainer's work even for packages that I myself created. > > Edward > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] meta-comment re. build systems
Nate Bargmann wrote: > Hi Miles, et. al. > > As an upstream developer/maintainer and downstream user of packages both > locally built and packaged, I've come to the conclusion that, at least > in the case of Debian, building from source is for "those who know what > they are doing." On the one hand, given the wide array of prebuilt > packages available, why should anyone build from source? On the other, > if one is on Stable there may well be a package that becomes unusable > for reasons beyond Debian (occurred with an amateur radio package during > Squeeze as I recall), yet it will not be addressed by the project (an > updated backport was never provided for Squeeze as I recall). > > At least due to the FHS Debian has never taken steps to violate the idea > that /usr/local is reserved for the local administrator. As a user of > GNU Autotools in the projects I am involved in this is a good thing as > this is the Autotools default destination directory. > > As I see it, project maintainers/developers should take care to properly > document the specific installation instructions including build options > in the INSTALL file included as part of an Autotools source archive > tarball. As an upstream all I ask is that the distribution stay out of > my way for local builds so they can be installed to expected locations > in the file system or in user specified locations. I also expect > distributions to provide reasonably up to date tools in their latest > releases so the user can build the project successfully. > > That said, it is quite another thing for someone to want to take a > source package and make a local binary package (.deb in our case) to be > installed using the package management system. That is well beyond my > scope and interest as an upstream developer and I would expect the > distribution to provide timely and clear documentation and the tools for > doing so. > > In short, as an upstream it's my job to make sure that 'configure; make; > make install' "just work" and is documented and it's the distribution's > job to make sure its packaging system is documented. Did I explain it > well enough to see where the line of responsibility between upstream and > distribution lies and their responsibility to the user? One problem with locally built software is managing dependencies. Another is being able to uninstall. I found that using the program 'checkinstall' instead of 'make install' will create and install a debian package, that you can later remove using dpkg. Cheers, Joel > - Nate > > -- > > "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all > possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." > > Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Some useful X11 utilities (was: Re: Windowmaker: was Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite )
Quoting this with a useful subject. Simon Wise wrote: > I have been using dmenu for some time now ... with a couple of other tools > that allow for a few tweaks to DEs to make them more comfortable for me, or > indeed to set up kiosk style environments without any DE required at all. > Use xbindkeys to set a hotkey ... > xbindkeys > is a way to get keybindings for commands easily, works anywhere in X, I have > been using it to avoid each individual DEs different ways of doing things, > and easily get some consistency no matter which DE I'm using. > > triggerhappy (thd) > does the job in embedded devices without X running, it gets the events > directly from input devices. > > devilspie > can be a great help in setting specific window placements and such in X, it > performs actions on newly opened windows. > > alongside a few tools like xwit, xclip and a others, even xte for stubborn > applications, you can tame X on even the smallest embedded device. And the > main tools above have more sophisticated scheme or similar configuration > options if you want to put a little work into getting a specific X > environment right. > > I'm using i3 as my desktop currently, it is very light, has few dependencies > and will do most of the above without help (in a tiling environment) Nice to see someone mention i3. Except for the rare multipanel app such as gimp, I find i3 works well for my needs. It seems faster to flip through the open tiled windows with keyboard shortcuts than clicking and moving windows on a desktop. cheers -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Giving Devuan sans-initramfs capabilities
Steve Litt wrote: > On Sun, 3 Jan 2016 09:09:28 + > KatolaZ wrote: > > > On Sat, Jan 02, 2016 at 01:11:07PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > On Sat, 2 Jan 2016 09:08:37 + > > > KatolaZ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > If your root fs does not change every five minutes, you can have a > > > > custom kernel with ext4 and a few other drivers compiled in, and > > > > get rid of initramfs altogether. Then, the usage that has been > > > > done of initramfs in the last few years is just an overkill, > > > > IMHO. > > > > > > This was exactly my point. Why can't Devuan put the ext4 kernel > > > module and the few other drivers for ext4, on directories directly > > > off the root partition, plus the stub of an rc file to bring the > > > thing to the mounted state. This would make Devuan the only distro > > > giving the user an easy choice of initramfs or not. > > > > > > > Steve, > > > > just because not everybody wants to use ext4, not everybody has the > > same disc controller, not everybody has the same configuration of > > raid/lvm/whatever. > > Let me repeat myself. I think it would be an excellent idea for Debian > to offer, not to require, as an option, not as the default, an easy way > of booting sans-initramfs for very simple ext4 configs with no LVM or > Raid or LUKS on the root partition. > > Not for everybody, not for every setup, just for this one fairly simple > and fairly common one. > > > Again, the installer of a distro should be able to > > install on *any* supported hw/sw configuration. There are basically > > two ways to do so: > > > > 1) build and ship a kernel with everything compiled-in, which might > > not be any more a viable option, since it would be impossible in some > > cases to load the full image into RAM at boot time; > > Obviously the preceding is not going to be done. > > > > > 2) use an initrd/initramfs with all the potentially useful modules, > > and let the kernel figure out which of them have to be loaded during > > boot, which is what happens now. > > The preceding is what I envision continues to be the default way of > booting, and I also hope that the initramfs is kept as simple as > humanly possible, with only the complexity needed to mount / and > maybe /usr. > > But there's a third option, that could be offered as a non-default > choice: > > 3) Compile ext4 and only the most common hard drive and SSD drivers >into a separate and optional kernel that doesn't call an >initramfs, but merely runs an rc file as an init. That rc file >does nothing but get all the drives mounted and then exec the >normal init (sysvinit). > > Repeating: This would be an option, not the default. It would be > optional, not required. It would work only with ext4 and the very most > common hardware drivers. > > The cost of this would be more work for the Devuan developers. The > benefits would be: > > 1) Simpler, more transparent startup for setups that qualify. > > 2) Very good educationally, because adding initramfs to the mix really >complicates matters while trying to learn the rudiments of bootup. > > 3) Publicity. AFAIK, Devuan would be the only major distro to offer >this option. > > Let me repeat just one more time: I mention this as a non-default > option for the simplest of ext4 setups. Hi Steve, I would like to see Devuan as a source for innovation in the community in future and I think it's a great idea to offer a simpler kernel and boot process. It could be accomplished with a modest effort, and would simplify subsequent administration. I know it's been a discipline of Devuan's default deciders to avoid enhancements to Debian outside the minimum needed to achieve Devuan's initial goal of init freedom. > If anyone wants to debate me about this, please read the preceding > sentence, so at least you're debating a position I really took. If you start to develop the pieces involved, it's probably just a matter of time before they can be brought into the distribution, again conditional on our achieving Devuan's preliminary goals. cheers, Joel > Thanks, > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting > http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Clarke Sideroad writes: > > So I've been thinking more about this as to why? > > > > It is quite obvious that it is driven by Redhat to be the same as Oracle > > Solaris, they say as much. > > That's "quite obviously" an after-the-fact justification and the > corresponding freedesktop.org text, > > http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/separate-usr-is-broken/ > > (still) quite plainly states that udev (it names no other examples) is > developed based on the assumption that / and /usr reside on the same > device and that any bug reports regarding this are WONTFIXes. IOW, > that's a policy decision certain people originally made for "their > systems" which is now forced on everybody else. Reading the above link, and also this discussion http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/ it appears there are two aspects considered: 1. Merging the longstanding directories for executables: /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/sbin 2. Making libraries in /usr/lib and friends available at boot time. Gobo Linux, to take one example, has been doing the first since its inception. Executables are left in the original build directory, and symlinked to /bin. The same approach with libraries, so that packages can be uninstalled by simply removing the directory, and cleaning the symlinks. With it easy to have a rescue system on disk or CD, or thumbdrive, having statically linked executables may not as important as it used to be. Regarding the second, having more stuff available at boot is obviously convenient, and the young guys coding are not beholden to the old Unix/Debian ways, don't feel obligated to support the old ways. I, for one, prefer to avoid the churn of a continuous stream of changes. Today it is funny to look for help on a subject, see top responses that are systemd-specific. cheers, Joel -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism
dev1fanboy wrote: > Some suggestions for minor updates to quick start > translations. > > There is a change in devuan that means it's no longer > necessary to do "apt-get install sysvinit core" anymore, > also "apt-get install basefiles" is not necessary. > > As mentioned before, adding the user to the disk group is > not needed anymore. Feel free to change wordings to > whatever you like, the CC license allows that anyway. > > A quick suggestion for working with markdown format.. > where commands are done, or snippets of config files, it > is necessary to use return carriages in mark down after > each new line or they will display on the same line. You can also explicitly break lines by ending the lines with two or more spaces. > This > would basically mean I don't need to comment on changing > the formatting for them, so content will look better. > > Anyway, will leave it up to translators if they feel this > is worth doing, the newer version is what I'm working with > now because it fixed some bigger issues with the guide > (https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/devuan-talk-version). > -- Take back your privacy. Switch to www.StartMail.com > ___ Dng > mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] What JACK is and isn't (was: Re: Slackware now uses PulseAudio...)
Steve Litt wrote: > In all fairness, I've found few softwares as difficult to install and > get right as Jack. In fact, of the five times I've tried to install it > on various distros, I've succeeded zero times. Hi Steve, Probably a combination of bad luck, using (GUI?) utilities you don't need, with a dash of conceptual confusion, IMO. As others wrote, you don't need JACK unless you want to connect multiple JACK-aware audio apps. JACK doesn't reduce the latency inherent in the soundcard, or in the kernel. It is specialized, different, not better or worse than other audio services. The Linux audio users list is the authoritative forum for solving JACK-related issues. Steve, I don't see that you ever posted to that list. > So I'd settle for Pulse (or ALSA or OSS) over Jack simply because I can > actually get those installed. The short answer is that you don't need JACK at all. Regards, Joel -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended
Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 17:20:10 +0100 > Adam Borowski wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:02:17AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > Grub is the systemd of bootloaders. It's all about pretty colors, > > > nice images, and hiding the fact that processes are being > > > instantiated. > > > > Grub is complex, but that's caused by what it tries to do (read the > > kernel image from real filesystems instead of a blockmap like lilo). > > It doesn't go beyond its scope, unlike systemd. > > The preceding paragraph was much more true of Grub1 than its gargantuan > spawn, Grub2. > > Grub1 read filesystems just fine. Grub2 has prioritized all sorts of > pretty, and the simplicity of Grub1 has been lost. The grub developers wrote that they began grub2 due to limitations and maintenance problems with grub1. > SteveT > > Steve Litt > January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting > http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 > > > _______ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit
Steve Litt wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 20:23:10 + > Rainer Weikusat wrote: > > > Steve Litt writes: > > > People aren't completely alone on run scripts: I can give them any > > > run scripts I'm using. Also, Runit run scripts are *nothing* like > > > sysvinit or OpenRC init scripts: > > > > There is no such thing as a "sysvinit init script". The way the > > sysvinit program is usually employed on Linux is such that it's > > instructed to run the command /etc/init.d/rc with the run-level > > > > The commands which are actually executed via these S- and K-links come > > from individual packages and ultimatively contain whatever the people > > responsible for that considered sensible. > > The actual files to which the S- and K-links point are the "init > scripts" to which I refer. So perhaps I used the wrong name for them. > Anyway, they're usually an unholy mess, usually over 40 lines, I think > I remember seeing some go over 100. Hi Steve, How complicated is it to port such scripts to runit? Exim4's init.d script is 275 lines. Joel > SteveT > > Steve Litt > January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting > http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit
Joel Roth wrote: > Steve Litt wrote: > Hi Steve, > > How complicated is it to port such scripts to runit? Exim4's > init.d script is 275 lines. I see there is a library of scripts for runit, although the page seems somewhat stale. For example, exim 3 only. http://smarden.org/runit/runscripts.html#exim Most of the scripts are quite simple. An advantage to runit is that the pid 1 program is very brief. > Joel > > > SteveT > > > > Steve Litt > > January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 > > > > > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > -- > Joel Roth > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit
Steve Litt wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:20:26 -1000 > Joel Roth wrote: > > > > Hi Steve, > > > > How complicated is it to port such scripts to runit? Exim4's > > init.d script is 275 lines. > > > > Joel > > Hi Joel, > > According to http://smarden.org/runit/runscripts.html#exim , Runit's > run script for Exim should be: > > = > #!/bin/sh > exec /usr/local/sbin/exim -bdf -q30m > = > Because the preceding doesn't contain "exec 2>&1", I would guess that > Exim does its own logging and doesn't need Runit to provide a log for > the Exim daemon. > Thanks. Yes I eventually stumbled on this. And as you say, it is possible to drill down through the init script to get just a few essential lines and environment settings. I guess the biggest problem is that I have 78 working init scripts, so it would be a gradual process to switch over to runit. I guess if I can start runit under sysvinit, I could move services one by one. Like you, I don't expect to run heavy-weight GUI environment, so I think a lot of fat could be cut away. Just that it's also running code ;-) I hope I can find time to fiddle with this. Joel > SteveT > > Steve Litt > January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting > http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Apparently Jessie has runit
Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Joel wrote: > > How complicated is it to port such scripts to runit? Exim4's > > init.d script is 275 lines. > > This depends on what you mean by "port", ie, do you just want the start > command, as was suggested elsewhere, or do you want to keep some of the > other features? Well, some study is obviously needed, since I have no idea what those features are! So it makes sense to start with simpler cases. . Regards, Joel -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 07:46:40PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi All, > > Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making > it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows > installed. > > Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you > need to buy a new machine? I generally go through a laborious, and somewhat painful process to install my own choice of OS. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
Didier Kryn wrote: > > The ability to brick the motherboard is brand new. Therefore admins > should be seriously protected and warned against this eventuality, at least > until it percolates into the general culture. IIUC, this means malware will now be able to not only erase, but to render its targets unbootable. Also creating a new hardware recovery business. It seems somewhat bleak. Am I overreacting? -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A heads up about xfce's future
On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 02:32:45AM +, hellekin wrote: > On 02/27/2016 03:28 AM, Simon Wise wrote: > > > > something as minimal as possible, like above, seems a very good option. > > I dream of a core Devuan that is modular so that the Desktop Environment > is a *blend* that you layer on top of core. That way, you can have a > choice of DEs that users can prepare for their own pleasure. For people like my dad who simply need to reach their applications, something like icewm is enough. They don't have the interest or aptitude to master a complex desktop environment with twitchy GUIs in the style of Apple's recent offerings. > The question of the default DE comes next: Devuan should be shipped with > a default DE. So far we've been focusing on XFCE, for reasons unknown > to me (normally I use a tiled WM without DE). I, too, have found grace (or at least sufficient convenience) in tiled WMs :) I agree that if Xfce floats enough boats, and can be integrated okay, why not? Alternatively, having a minimal window manager as default, possibly with a menu choice to upgrade to a fancier DE, seems like a way to convey that the various DEs are *user interfaces* rather than representing the OS itself. That goes with another radical idea: having people login at the console and type 'startx'. That way, when later there is some problem, you can ask the person to type some commands in the console, and they know at least to type something at a prompt and conclude with the Enter key. They can also understand that X is a layer on top of the base OS. These concepts seems quite alien to many users. I think that even this minimal exposure to the command line could stimulate curiosity about what the terminal can be used to accomplish. At the minimum, people will know it is there. Maybe I am missing something about the motivations behind and the benefits of a graphical login screen, but it seems like the main value is allowing people to run their computer without ever seeing the command prompt. I think it would be of more value for people to encounter the command prompt, even if briefly. > I can imagine that Jessie 1.0 Beta will ship with XFCE by default. > I hope Jessie 1.0 will ship with a choice for WM/DE, each implemented as > a blend. That way the community can maintain a collection of *properly > configured and integrated desktops* for those who want to use that, and > leave the rest of us free to build on the foundation, not just decorate > of a pre-chewed environment. It would be great cooperation to have one group to hack on the DE stuff, while leaving the Devuan core developers free to concentrate on lower-level concerns. Regards, Joel > == > hk > > -- > _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom > (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] leveldb support proposal
Hi Rainer, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > As I already wrote twice, program's aren't "linked" to dynamic libraries > at all. At link time, the sonames of required dynamic libaries are > recorded in the binary, > > [rw@doppelsaurus]~#readelf -d /bin/bash | grep -i needed > 0x0001 (NEEDED) Shared library: [libtinfo.so.5] > 0x0001 (NEEDED) Shared library: [libdl.so.2] > 0x0001 (NEEDED) Shared library: [libc.so.6] [more good stuff] > In case you really care about the technical details, a good description > is available here: > > https://www.akkadia.org/drepper/dsohowto.pdf Thanks for this and other contributions! Your clear explanations and code snippets add a lot to the (high IMO) level of discussion here. It's a pleasure to learn more about how various parts of the Debian/Devuan/Linux OS works. Cheers, -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] How borged is D-bus?
Daniel Reurich wrote: > On 04/03/16 12:42, Nuno Magalhães wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > Considering the systemd team has been focusing on sd-bus, how > > systemd-free is dbus? > > > Our package doesn't depend on systemd, libsystemd0 or libpam-systemd It does constitute fundamental protocol used and depended on by many parts of the systemd ecosystem, however doesn't involve the init system, so you're free of that. Being that so much complex code is built on dbus, Pottering and co guarantee that dbus will not be broken by updates in the protocol. There is some question (at least I am ignorant) whether how backward compatible sdbus will be with dbus. Also will you have a choice to not use kernel-mediated boundary crossing sdbus in future? So there is some borginess(tm) there. IIRC Linus commented that the only reason for sdbus is that dbus code is badly implemented. So caveat emptor, and as the japanese say, TADA YORI TAKAI MONO GA NAI (nothing is more expensive than [what appears to be given for] free.) People should think about that when signing up for Gmail! cheers, Joel (yes, I have a gmail account, another type of borginess) > -- > Daniel Reurich > Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. > 021 797 722 > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Accessibility: Does the devuan installer default to ALSA?
Hi Devuan, I'm following the blinux mailing list, for blind users of Linux, and there is a report of someone having trouble with pulse audio. So that leads me to ask, will devuan default to ALSA in the installer and base installation? I'm also curious if ALSA is sufficient for the various screen readers and other accessbility software people are using. cheers, Joel -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Accessibility: Does the devuan installer default to ALSA?
Gregory Nowak wrote: > On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 08:53:06AM +1300, Daniel Reurich wrote: > > On 08/03/16 06:45, Joel Roth wrote: > > > Hi Devuan, > > > > > > I'm following the blinux mailing list, for blind users of > > > Linux, and there is a report of someone having trouble with > > > pulse audio. So that leads me to ask, will devuan default to > > > ALSA in the installer and base installation? I'm also > > > curious if ALSA is sufficient for the various screen readers > > > and other accessbility software people are using. > > Alsa by itself is great for espeakup/espeak. I believe that gnome3 in > debian 8 uses speech-dispatcher which seems to in turn use > pulseaudio by default, though this can be changed to alsa in > /etc/speech-dispatcher/speechd.conf. Things seem to work fine after > making that change and purging pulse, though I haven't tested things > in this configuration extensively. I don't know about xfce/mate under > devuan, though installing mate on my devuan box is on my to-do list. I > would be surprised if I couldn't get rid of pulse there either. > > If pulseaudio is installed, it uses Alsa. Currently we haven't excised > > pulseaudio (yet), but there is a possibility we may look to either doing > > that or at least maintaining a coherent option for using alsa instead. > > That gets a huge yes vote from me! I agree. As we are supporting choice of init subsystems, it is nice with audio, too, if we can offer users a base system that does not force a commitment to a layer above ALSA (PA) that grabs exclusive use of the audio device. I believe there are some clever configuration where PA gets only a virtual audio device for handling desktoppy things, leaving, ALSA and friends still accessible. Not sure whether that could be supported as a choice among several system audio profiles; it would be a secondary goal. > > With regards to whether the accessibility software (or any audio > > producing or consuming software for that matter) uses alsa is largely a > > matter of whether that support is compiled in by default these days. That's good to hear. So supporting accessibility during install may be in reach. cheers, Joel > Greg > > > > > > > > -- > > Daniel Reurich > > Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. > > 021 797 722 > > > > > > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > -- > web site: http://www.gregn.net > gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc > skype: gregn1 > (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) > If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your > contacts. > > -- > Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Accessibility: Does the devuan installer default to ALSA?
Joel Roth wrote: > > So supporting accessibility during > install may be in reach. https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility#Debian_installer_accessibility -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The Gtk+ Hodgepodge 'Object Model'
Hey Edward, Well props to you for taking this on. Perhaps I will learn a little C++ one day, but as far as I've heard, programmers must be far more disciplined than we humble scripters. I'm just reaching back to possibly revisit a bit of GUI stuff, using Tk from perl. Plain graphics, but code is well-beaten-upon and rugged. A lot of developers will code an app in Python, and then rewrite in C or C++ those hot routines that matter. But a change in language wouldin't free you from the objects which belong to your chosen graphic toolkit and their peculiar logic. I looked at Wx for a while, but way more code than Tk, and what does it give me? Mainly just looks. Have fun! Joel On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 08:41:47AM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi, > > I am using 'Object Model' in this sense: > The way object's data and functions are accessed which tghitly depends > on how objects are designed, i.e. their architecture. By the latter I > am NOT referring to object hierarchy. > > Having used in the past for several years other object models in > Delphi (TM) and Lazarus (free/open), is making me realise that the > object model employed in Delphi and Lazarus are far more logical and > productive. > > I have been struggling to embrace Gtk+ and Qt object models in vain > due to their counter-intuitive object models. Instead of using real > tangible objects as a model they adopted to use an unnatural broken > model for their widget architecture. So, to start my car, I need to > create a starter object, plug it in into my car's engine, initialise > its circuitry, and finally, if my car should start! This is also like > having a detacheable digestive system, which one would plug in when > one needs to digest food! > > Why not integrate all objects required by a widget in the first place? > I can see an answer to this: to save memory space and processing > resources so object can be trimmed to what is necessary. That is a > good reason, but shouldn't a good widget designer create > not-often-used objects when an attempt to use them is made. You may > say that causes an access violation/segmentation fault. However, that > can be avoided easily. > > Why shouldn't a Gtk+ coder be able to use something like this: > gtkobjectinstance->helper-object->method() > > And > > gtkobjectinstance->helper-object->property = newpropertyvalue; > > ? > > I am perplexed, but it seems logic is not uniform. > > Edward > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] audio died again
Hi Hendrik, Hendrik Boom wrote: > My system is an old ASUS netbook. > > I installed devuan alpha 2 when it was current, and have upgraded it > regularly. It should be an up-to-date devuan jessie, modulo a few > days. > > I've had sound working on this system. > > Long ago, with debian all I got was laptop loudspeaker sound. > > When I switched to devuan, sound appeared on headphones but never > loudspeaker. This worked around Christmas. > > Today I tried using audio again, and all I get is total silence. > > Has anything related changed in devuan? > > How do I go about diagnosing the problem? > > As far as I know, I'm using alsa. It's worth verifying that you don't have pulse audio installed. dpkg -l pulseaudio Then, you can fiddle with alsamixer or aumix and raise all the settings to full. This is the most likely issue. If you have multiple sound cards, make sure to use the -c argument. The choice of kernels could also make a difference, but AFAIK, all recent kernels have ALSA drivers for typical builtin soundcards. cheers, Joel > -- hendrik > -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What do we want for ascii ?
Didier Kryn wrote: > hellekin a écrit : > >Does apulse serve for anything else than running non-free spyware? > > > > > Probably not. The author states that his goal was to run Skype test > call, and after he achieved this goal, the project has just been stale. The most recent commit is February this year, so that does not meet my definition of "stale" even if the author uses that term. > Whatever you think of Skype - and I share your opinion - it is so widely > used that it is necessary for many people. Skype for Linux, OTOH, *is* stale (and last time I checked was tricky to install) AIUI intentionally so due to Microsoft's special love for Linux. As a workaround, I run Skype on my smartphone, which MS (and their NSA buddies) can't ignore. Joel > Didier -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] For all you automounter programmers
Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > It seems like everyone in the Devuan community has written his or her > own usb drive automounter, As a suggestion for an aspiring automounter writer (or reminder to self) I was thinking that if we can get a sufficiently unique identifier from the device (UUID, etc.) it might be nice to map that to a memorable mount target. It could be a noun or adjective-noun from a list that would be automatically chosen and written to the device after mounting. Examples: white-chevy nude-mermaid furry-possum poor-jellyfish happy-ant slick-amoeba Too weird? Okay, I'm open, just something better than /mnt/sde7. cheers -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] For all you automounter programmers
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 06:46:24AM +, Noel Torres wrote: > Joel Roth escribió: > >As a suggestion for an aspiring automounter writer (or > >reminder to self) I was thinking that if we can get a > >sufficiently unique identifier from the device (UUID, etc.) > >it might be nice to map that to a memorable mount target. > >It could be a noun or adjective-noun from a list that would > >be automatically chosen and written to the device after > >mounting. > >[...] > >Too weird? Okay, I'm open, just something better than > >/mnt/sde7. > > Why not just the Label of the filesystem being mounted? Do you label all your filesystems? I don't, but you're right that is a different function that needed be confuted with an automounter. Cheers, joel > Regards > > Noel > er Envite > -BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) > > mQGiBEBaVWkRBACkDEIMdqB4j0FUD+h7CBAPa3T4IxNDTVTjaOdeARNVSVBitvKK > NIVBT/XfrEKAxCOBzjRfAS9vTO2IYSxW9I7M/ONEsjQa1QEGfva9p03Bo1pDoYa8 > zd8pymZsLdBYTTZrxWgYWj4qY6TnRiZYi8xUoW3xEvKwmLYz02xp3OL6bwCgjuYt > 1OemA3j2coVPd4Ye0uERS30D/R3GCqMV4/wfSWjs6994aL1NK8hZ2VdfgCiFW2s0 > IIFiy5ts29azu9S322OJZ4WmYEnrHe0fNRVzed1lTZ/yPfX3mcmBprkN+Z4b4fXz > HtsZA2UeAfchhWHs5TFuSkBCYY1BiDnDYeEPhK+0bALgdf/jWi6/bb4NpTd9NOU5 > eQS+A/9FcDsYU4MdFi+CVivy0vbLo9LYwPyyYB5giwhvDIDx7zHcjX/Z5Nf+gZoR > oM7RIxiFvmu9PP7msPVuBd320ypAilffMf2/2bJ4/NEE4PTW5wE0e6q0W5GPjc3b > l32KcEi9ovohYt4aoitvB1r6zB5d5+E+AijzG8VDM4fvM5jLUrQsTm9lbCBUb3Jy > ZXMgKEVudml0ZSkgPGVudml0ZUB0ZWxlZm9uaWNhLm5ldD6IXgQTEQIAHgUCQFpV > aQIbAwYLCQgHAwIDFQIDAxYCAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBwtADz7sfDcjApAJ4xvdZY594W > trUrpNL5zlO+8/MKdgCfcjWh3UOSLOI8e1v29Bnmn9sixvO0OE5vZWwgRGF2aWQg > VG9ycmVzIFRhw7FvIChFbnZpdGUpIDxlbnZpdGVAdGVsZWZvbmljYS5uZXQ+iF4E > ExECAB4FAkBaViwCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQcLQA8+7Hw3IB > 0wCeNcdiYyQXi8IhQ8PL01So/ud3oHcAn1nDi56Ggydw2pp6eFjINL3bIETjtCtO > b2VsIFRvcnJlcyAoRW52aXRlKSA8ZW52aXRlQHJvbGFtYXNhby5vcmc+iF4EExEC > AB4FAkBaVlwCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQcLQA8+7Hw3I0JgCe > Omt0YdaqbvrdnXa/dWNqh8AwS4cAniX0VT08dAleudGTpAgmjSkawlORtC5Ob2Vs > IERhdmlkIFRvcnJlcyBUYcOxbyA8ZW52aXRlQHJvbGFtYXNhby5vcmc+iGAEExEC > ACAFAkhyHmsCGwMGCwkIBwMCBBUCCAMEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBwtADz7sfDciiu > AJ4zn1YzDj5birUgW0Uvz8l59MH6GwCfY4G1+Mk5GG5n8YnkkboJWT7uV0m0VU5v > ZWwgRGF2aWQgVG9ycmVzIFRh8W8gKERlcGFydGFtZW50byBkZSBBc3Ryb25vbe1h > IHkgQXN0cm9m7XNpY2EpIDxub2VsLnRvcnJlc0B1di5lcz6IYAQTEQIAIAUCSaHS > YgIbAwYLCQgHAwIEFQIIAwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEHC0APPux8Ny2EkAnjqXO1HS > IebxR/2M+Be9A+qOgJ6VAJwMpuNQ/TE7RlwGDiFSTG11K3ONhbkCDQRAWlWXEAgA > 2MMjeuEeeHHHgOX5zHqr4lCg/GYzERYS8c5xjPFFypjmedW6TdQu3YPsSMLZuFrO > 4CUG12R9ofptboqw+DSz64eGaznBwxXEqCmFXjGa2RAKQxqmZW8bU44wdAlSKi7u > iIIYoCnLZuB4Uxa8LAgFeNuPzW3JE2pPcab0oZy+uvpAcXnbbAdnJAxra8Cnooh/ > wgwCdx5Cz+o03GKU0bSEGN8fCkywgMy/3vk+ZY8ZtGonDIvVWgQSlAUkkuS/ollw > VGPSUabKR/S8Zywka5ObIs/Okm3OmUeh3YldiXsrRUuKZcTMARYw98HVhi6j67Si > IElG9nETpBbZUkOU0EaqKwADBgf/ff45K9c5UCROghKd6OvruS1n3kgo0219xxPC > 0fwbdbzuADN4pFfeC/h4/yaJTy17lhgDtrHVQxHr3OItRIOejQ1Sw5joJSYgPWxR > yY6s2m/2+hr/0N7jIs3BSclHA1VraBNxA7RN7Kopd1RUvJDnVJLciTXw/5y+6PQE > iNGN9zYBgAYmjaSm9Y4lqplxiTNfhVSHUS8/EjgYtiVCniFvQmF+QT+OmtXyuXwn > Q+kt9ZUG5U8HjucAyAeDYEp9UhxoJZvikz7daIOy93OqeOhzypolR9Z2tZE355Dr > X5TF4ohq/0WYftnX7ytYl+d1P7vPlir0a9POFMwKFirNpU5fvYhJBBgRAgAJBQJA > WlWYAhsMAAoJEHC0APPux8NyqkgAoIQNP1RD45b0iWFPRjmkxwAnh0/tAJ0SbU3T > G7RLmT/DAZf2QPI0mL3JpQ== > =7jij > -END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- [-- Error: could not find beginning of PGP message! --] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Security Repo (was Re: invalid security certificate)
Daniel Reurich wrote: > We now have jessie-security and ascii-security repositories available on > our mirrors Great news! Yesterday I took the opportunity to switch my personal system from debian-jessie / sysvinit to devuan-jessie. It went perfectly. With such a smooth transition, I think many other will be following these well-greased rails! Curious if the repository server keeps statistics, or if there is some other way to gauge devuan's popularity. > deb http(s)://.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main > [contrib] [non-free] https didn't work on my system. When I went to install apt-transport-https, I got the warning: WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated! apt-transport-https Was able to resolve it by converting sources.list from packages.devuan.org to auto.mirror.devuan.org. Thanks to all, for your heroic work. Joel > If you've installed from the beta image the security repo stanza should > already be in your /etc/apt/sources.list > > Thanks go to Franco (nextime) Lanza for the big push in working with me > to get this up and running. > Regards, > Daniel. > > On 30/04/16 23:03, dev1fanboy wrote: > > You'll get updates from time to time when the debian main repo gets > > updated. Best to wait for devuan security mirror instead of trying to use > > the debian mirror, as you can end up with packages that use systemd that > > way. > > > > Cheers, > > > > chillfan > > > > On Saturday, April 30, 2016 8:00 AM, Herb Garcia > > wrote: > >> Um. Then what source is recommended for security updates? > >> > >> Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid > >> On Apr 29, 2016 10:45 AM, hellekin wrote: > >> On 04/29/2016 03:27 PM, Haines Brown wrote: > >>> > >>> security.devuan.org uses an invalid security certificate. > >>> The certificate is only valid for the following names: > >>> devuan.org, www.devuan.org<http://www.devuan.org> > >>> (Error code: ssl_error_bad_cert_domain) > >>> > >>> How do I resolve this? > >>> > >> > >> Don't use security.devuan.org: it doesn't exist. > >> > >> The correct entry is: > >> > >> deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main > >> > >> or with https if you use apt-transport-https. > >> > >> But it's not active yet. It's not recommended to use > >> security.debian.org at this point. Hang on... > >> > >> == > >> hk > >> > >> -- > >> _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom > >> (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ > >> ___ > >> Dng mailing list > >> Dng@lists.dyne.org > >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > >> ___ > >> Dng mailing list > >> Dng@lists.dyne.org > >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > -- > Daniel Reurich > Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. > 021 797 722 > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Security Repo (was Re: invalid security certificate)
Joel Roth wrote: > Daniel Reurich wrote: > > We now have jessie-security and ascii-security repositories available on > > our mirrors > > > deb http(s)://.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main > > [contrib] [non-free] > > https didn't work on my system. When I went to install > apt-transport-https, I got the warning: > > WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated! > apt-transport-https > > Was able to resolve it by converting sources.list > from packages.devuan.org to auto.mirror.devuan.org. Not quite. Still having a certificate problem. Err https://auto.mirror.devuan.org jessie-security/contrib amd64 Packages SSL: certificate subject name (packages.devuan.org) does not match target host name 'auto.mirror.devuan .org' Regards, Joel -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] sources.list targets (was: Re: Devuan Security Repo (was Re: invalid security certificate)
Joel Roth wrote: > Joel Roth wrote: > > Daniel Reurich wrote: > > > We now have jessie-security and ascii-security repositories available on > > > our mirrors > > > > > deb http(s)://.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main > > > [contrib] [non-free] > > > > https didn't work on my system. When I went to install > > apt-transport-https, I got the warning: > > > > WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated! > > apt-transport-https > > > > Was able to resolve it by converting sources.list > > from packages.devuan.org to auto.mirror.devuan.org. > > Not quite. Still having a certificate problem. > > Err https://auto.mirror.devuan.org jessie-security/contrib amd64 Packages > SSL: certificate subject name (packages.devuan.org) does not match target > host name 'auto.mirror.devuan.org' Hi, The devuan.org website gives these targets: deb http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org/merged jessie main deb http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org/merged jessie-updates main deb http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main However, apt-get update returns several errors: Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie InRelease Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie-updates InRelease Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie-security InRelease Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie Release.gpg Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie-updates Release.gpg Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie-security Release.gpg Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie Release Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie-updates Release Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie-security Release Err http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie/main amd64 Packages 404 Not Found [IP: 46.105.191.76 80] Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie/main Translation-en_US Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie/main Translation-en Err http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie-updates/main amd64 Packages 404 Not Found [IP: 46.105.191.76 80] Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie-updates/main Translation-en_US Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie-updates/main Translation-en Err http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie-security/main amd64 Packages 404 Not Found [IP: 46.105.191.76 80] Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie-security/main Translation-en_US Ign http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org jessie-security/main Translation-en W: Failed to fetch http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie/main/binary-amd64/Packages 404 Not Found [IP: 46.105.191.76 80] W: Failed to fetch http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-updates/main/binary-amd64/Packages 404 Not Found [IP: 46.105.191.76 80] W: Failed to fetch http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-security/main/binary-amd64/Packages 404 Not Found [IP: 46.105.191.76 80] I went back to my previous settings using auto.mirror.devuan.org And was able to apt-get update without errors. What is the difference between these two hosts? Should devuan.org be updated? I think this is important. Regards, Joel -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] sources.list targets (was: Re: Devuan Security Repo (was Re: invalid security certificate)
Joel Roth wrote: > Hi, > > The devuan.org website gives these targets: > > deb http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org/merged jessie main > deb http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org/merged jessie-updates main > deb http://auto.mirrors.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main > > However, apt-get update returns several errors: > I went back to my previous settings using auto.mirror.devuan.org > And was able to apt-get update without errors. > > What is the difference between these two hosts? Should > devuan.org be updated? I think this is important. Also, dev1fanboy's pages (and their derivatives) suggest using packages.devuan.org Finally, I see that the devuan project has sprouted a lot of pages, and suddenly there is a problem of which ones are authoritative. I'll note that the FAQ, which is where many people go first for answers, contains only stubs. I'm sure several on this list would be happy to contribute! Regards, -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] My ISP is blocking devuan.org
Robert Storey wrote: > As I mentioned in the "Beta" thread, whenever I tried to access devuan.org, > I got a message: > > "This webpage is not available" Perhaps try the following for clues: dig devuan.org ping devuan.org -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OpenRC and Devuan
Steve Litt wrote: > On Mon, 2 May 2016 21:05:18 -0400 > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > Is there a summary of some sort explaining the various init systems, > > how they're put together, how they work, and especially the salient > > points on which they differ? > > I've tried. See > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/init/features_and_benefits.htm#init_system_feature_matrix > > Keep in mind these two things: > > 1) I'm an order of magnitude less knowledeable on init systems than the >average person on the supervis...@list.skarnet.org mailing list. >Those guys found several mistakes in my matrix, and I'm not sure I >corrected all of them. > > 2) Like everyone else, I have likes, dislikes and maybe an agenda. I'm >a huge fan of daemontools-inspired inits, and I have a significant >dislike of systemd. The problem with supporting multiple init systems is that there is an init script for each service that has to be ported or rewritten. Launching Devuan while maintaining the sysvinit status quo has already stressed the pool of volunteer manpower to the limit. So the practical way forward is to leave the task of developing init scripts for the alternative init systems to the users of those systems. If someone would volunteer to coordinate the infrastructure needed to collect, systematize, debug and distribute the the tens or hundreds of scripts involved (one for each service), multiplied by the number of init systems to be supported, I'm sure the Devuan project leads could consider in future ways to bring them into the Devuan package ecosystem. For those with time to invest, I would suggest the following: * determine a subset, those esssential services that, if supported, would allow a user to get a usable base system: * choose one or two best-of-breed init systems to work on, and provide infrastructure for collecting contributions for *all* init systems, even less popular ones. With cheers for the volunteers, -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OpenRC and Devuan
Hendrik Boom wrote: > There's a small number of directories that are supposed to be on the > root filesystem, or otherwise available during boot. I believe /etc > and /bin are two of these. > > /usr is not. I suspect /var isn't either. > > init is supposed to be able to read /etc/fstab to find the others. > That's why /etc has to be on the root filesystem. > > So it is available for init-time configuration files. /etc is the right place for config files, and init scripts have historically lived there. I hope we can agree on at least this part! > -- hendrik > > > > > Perhaps LSB should add a directory called /mustnotbemountpoint directly > > off the root, for stuff that must be available immediately upon > > mounting the root partition for the first time. > > There are already several suuch directories. > > -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OpenRC and Devuan
Steve Litt wrote: > Joel Roth wrote: > > > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > There's a small number of directories that are supposed to be on > > > the root filesystem, or otherwise available during boot. I > > > believe /etc and /bin are two of these. > > > > > > /usr is not. I suspect /var isn't either. > > > > > > init is supposed to be able to read /etc/fstab to find the others. > > > That's why /etc has to be on the root filesystem. > > > > > > So it is available for init-time configuration files. > > > > /etc is the right place for config files, and init scripts > > have historically lived there. I hope we can agree on at > > least this part! > > No doubt about it. /etc is the tree where init scripts, run scripts, > EpochConfig files belong. > > I think the nonobvious thing comes from the daemontools-inspired inits, > which at a minimum have a /service directory somewhere that contains > symlinks to the actual service directories. No reason that can't be > somewhere under /etc. Daemontools, and maybe some other ones, also have > a /command directory, directly off the root, that houses executables > specific to themselves. It's possible this odd placement is to > guarantee they're available the minute the root partition is mounted. Interesting, I thought /sbin was historically for statically linked executables needed at boot time, or for system recovery. > Bizarrely, Runit on Void Linux has a directory at /run/runit that has > all sorts of oddball symlinks. I believe this is so, if /etc/ is > mounted read-only, parts of Runit that need to change file conttents > can still operate. I think this is usually placed at /var/run/runit, > but on Void it's just /run/runit. > > I did a little runit experimentation during my Manjaro Experiments, and > have found that Void's runit implementation is much more complex and > full of chained symlinks than was my Manjaro alt-initted runit. Well, all of these sources can be patched to suit the policies of Devuan, if it can be agreed what these policies are :-) > SteveT > > Steve Litt > April 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century > http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OpenRC and Devuan
On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 01:03:08PM +0800, Robert Storey wrote: > For whatever it's worth, I'm fully supportive of the idea of defaulting to > a simpler init system such as S6, Epoch, Runit, you-name-it. Many people agree that sysvinit with its symlinks and run levels is overly complex for the common use case. > The main issue with switching from sysvinit to something else is just > finding someone willing to do the work. As I wrote before, hundreds of scripts could be involved. Daniel Reurich observed that bug reports could be filed with each package, and then resolved as scripts are added. The upstream software developer may not care about multiple init systems, so the burden would be on the Devuan package developer to support them. It would be great if some automated tools could do this, but programmatically parsing and transforming shell scripts is a task that will be fraught with complexity. Perhaps some examples to follow for each init system will be enough for packagers, or init system advocate teams to write the necessary scripts. cheers, -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd (Daniel Reurich)
emnin...@riseup.net wrote: > Also: Ceni is an excellent ncurses based tool to administrate network > connections (it's based on dhcpd and wpa_supplicant), more basic then > networkmanager and wicd ((who both, it think, there are not just > overlays but they use their own way to deal with the hardware; in fact > iirc they are not compatible with wpa_supplicant running (??) ). How do you like ceni? There isn't much detail in the man page. How does it deal with suspend? (With wicd-gtk I have to reconnect after wake-up.) I see there is a debian package available here: http://aptosid.com/debian/pool/main/c/ceni/ cheers, -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Supervision scripts (was Re: OpenRC and Devuan)
We're not the first people to think about supporting alternative init systems. There are collections of the init scripts already available. https://bitbucket.org/avery_payne/supervision-scripts https://github.com/tokiclover/supervision -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan live images
Hi, Piggybacking onto this thread, I'd like to have a live distro to demo for friends who are still bombarded with hateful Windows popups. Ideally with heavy-weight apps such as libreoffice, firefox, thunderbird. And I'd like to write it to a USB drive, or SD card. I'm aware of Knoppix, and open to any other less heavy assemblages. Appreciate any suggestions. Thanks, -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan live images
Go Linux wrote: > On Sun, 5/8/16, Joel Roth wrote: > Piggybacking onto this thread, I'd like to have a live > distro to demo for friends who are still bombarded with > hateful Windows popups. Ideally with heavy-weight apps such > as libreoffice, firefox, thunderbird. And I'd like to write > it to a USB drive, or SD card. > > I'm aware of Knoppix, and open to any other less heavy > assemblages. > > Appreciate any suggestions. > > Thanks, > > -- > Joel Roth > > > > Hi Joel, > > Did you download the iso and give it a spin? Or at least look at the pkg > list? It has 2 of the three items you mentioned - libreoffice and iceweasel > (firefox). I have copied the pkg list below FYI. Looks good, thanks, and being systemd-free is an added benefit. > You might also want to check out refracta2usb. Check with fsr if it is > compatible with the Devuan iso: > > http://www.ibiblio.org/refracta/docs/readme.refracta2usb.txt > > > golinux -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan live images
fsmithred wrote: > On 05/08/2016 10:33 PM, Joel Roth wrote: > > Go Linux wrote: > >> On Sun, 5/8/16, Joel Roth wrote: > >> Piggybacking onto this thread, I'd like to have a live > >> distro to demo for friends who are still bombarded with > >> hateful Windows popups. Ideally with heavy-weight apps such > >> as libreoffice, firefox, thunderbird. And I'd like to write > >> it to a USB drive, or SD card. > >> > >> I'm aware of Knoppix, and open to any other less heavy > >> assemblages. > >> > >> Appreciate any suggestions. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> -- > >> Joel Roth > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi Joel, > >> > >> Did you download the iso and give it a spin? Or at least look at the pkg > >> list? It has 2 of the three items you mentioned - libreoffice and > >> iceweasel (firefox). I have copied the pkg list below FYI. > > > > Looks good, thanks, and being systemd-free is an added benefit. > > > >> You might also want to check out refracta2usb. Check with fsr if it is > >> compatible with the Devuan iso: > >> > >> http://www.ibiblio.org/refracta/docs/readme.refracta2usb.txt > >> > >> > >> golinux > > > 1. Install Devuan by whatever method you choose, and configure it however > you want. > 2. Use refractasnapshot to make your own iso. > 3. Use refracta2usb to make a live usb, with or without persistence, with > or without encryption, and some other things. > 4. Profit. (your friends will.) Thanks, I will enjoy experimenting with this. > -fsr > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan Jessie Beta Live Minimal
On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:52:41PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > Dear Devuaners, > > inspired by the recent thread about unofficial devuan live images > obtained with refracta tools, in the last few days I have been > experimenting with a small-footprint version of Devuan Jessie Beta. My > goal was to obtain a fully functional minimal system using standard > Devuan packages and less than 250 MB. The main purpose would be a > minimal system to put on a small USB key or on a card CDROM. > > The results of those experiments can be found here: > > http://devuan.kalos.mine.nu/ Hi, The link provided on this page doesn't resolve: http://devuan.kalos.mine.nu/iso/devuan-1.0-beta-minimal-unofficial-20160511_1204.iso -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan live images
On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 11:43:48AM -0400, fsmithred wrote: > If someone want to see what Devuan-Jessie beta looks like without > installing it, I made some live isos. I expect that there will eventually > be an official Devuan-Live, but this is not it. HTH. > > https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/unofficial_devuan_live/ I found this: unofficial_live_devuan_beta_amd64_snapshot-20160506_1604.iso Can it be booted with qemu? I tried this, and got a kernel panic: qemu-system-x68_64 --enable-kvm -cdrom unofficial_live_devuan_beta_amd64_snapshot-20160506_1604.iso Anyone have a better incantation? Thanks, -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan Jessie Beta Live Minimal
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 06:58:15AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 05:40:57PM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: > > On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:52:41PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > > > Dear Devuaners, > > > > > > inspired by the recent thread about unofficial devuan live images > > > obtained with refracta tools, in the last few days I have been > > > experimenting with a small-footprint version of Devuan Jessie Beta. My > > > goal was to obtain a fully functional minimal system using standard > > > Devuan packages and less than 250 MB. The main purpose would be a > > > minimal system to put on a small USB key or on a card CDROM. > > > > > > The results of those experiments can be found here: > > > > > > http://devuan.kalos.mine.nu/ > > > > Hi, > > > > The link provided on this page doesn't resolve: > > > > http://devuan.kalos.mine.nu/iso/devuan-1.0-beta-minimal-unofficial-20160511_1204.iso > > > > Sorry, I was playing around with two new images. Please try now. The > link for that image is: > > http://devuan.kalos.mine.nu/iso/old/devuan-1.0-beta-minimal-unofficial-20160511_1204.iso Hi, I got it. It it possible to run from qemu? Running with this vanilla command line panics with message "no working init found". sudo qemu-system-x86_64 --enable-kvm -cdrom devuan-1.0-beta-minimal-unofficial-20160511_1204.iso > HND Holy North Dakota? Happy New Devuan? Hope now does? Horizontal Naked Dance? Haneda Airport? > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan Jessie Beta Live Minimal
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 07:57:54AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 08:43:09PM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > Hi, I got it. It it possible to run from qemu? Running with > > this vanilla command line panics with message "no working init found". > > > > sudo qemu-system-x86_64 --enable-kvm -cdrom > > devuan-1.0-beta-minimal-unofficial-20160511_1204.iso > > > > Hi Joel, > > I am currently running it mainly from qemu. My line looks like this: > > qemu-system-x86_64 -cdrom > devuan-1.0-beta-minimal-unofficial-20160511_1204.iso -boot d -m 256\ >-localtime --enable-kvm -net nic -net user,hostfwd=tcp::5556-:22 > > and it works... For me, too :-) > > > > HND > > > > Holy North Dakota? > > Happy New Devuan? > > Hope now does? > > Horizontal Naked Dance? > > Haneda Airport? > > > > Have a Nice Day ;) > HND HND2 :^) > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan Jessie Beta Live Minimal
KatolaZ wrote: [snip] > > > I am currently running it mainly from qemu. My line looks like this: > > > > > > qemu-system-x86_64 -cdrom > > > devuan-1.0-beta-minimal-unofficial-20160511_1204.iso -boot d -m 256\ > > >-localtime --enable-kvm -net nic -net user,hostfwd=tcp::5556-:22 > > > > > > and it works... > > > > For me, too :-) > > > Great. Any feedback will be very welcome. Yesterday I worked a bit on > a version with framebuffer support and a few more utils suggested by > other devuaners. I have also put together an i386 image, which I am > now uploading. I will post an update in due course. Documenting the qemu invocation will help. I haven't used qemu lately and had forgotten about the -boot d argument, which is probably what makes the difference here. I was interested to learn that I can likely boot linux liveCDs on Intel Macs, and look forward to adding this small distro to my backup and rescue tools. Joel > HND > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan live images
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:20:41AM +0200, Jaromil wrote: > hi Joel, > > On Thu, 12 May 2016, Joel Roth wrote: > > > On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 11:43:48AM -0400, fsmithred wrote: > > > If someone want to see what Devuan-Jessie beta looks like without > > > installing it, I made some live isos. I expect that there will eventually > > > be an official Devuan-Live, but this is not it. HTH. > > > > > > https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/unofficial_devuan_live/ > > > > I found this: > > > > unofficial_live_devuan_beta_amd64_snapshot-20160506_1604.iso > > yes, this is the Refracta live iso BASE (not minimal) by fsmithred > > > > Can it be booted with qemu? > > for some reason, not. I had this problem too, asked and was told to > use virtualbox for these snapshots. I haven't found the time to > investigate further why such an iso wouldn't work on qemu/kvm Hi Jaromil, Katolaz's invocation works for me: system-x86_64 -boot d -m 256 -localtime --enable-kvm -net nic -net user,hostfwd=tcp::5556-:22 -cdrom unofficial_live_devuan_beta_amd64_snapshot-20160506_1604.iso Minimally, -m 256, -boot d, and -cdrom options are needed. system-x86_64 -boot d -m 256 --enable-kvm -cdrom unofficial_live_devuan_beta_amd64_snapshot-20160506_1604.iso Seems like wiki material everyone needs to be able to test stuff via qemu where possible. Thanks, Joel > ciao > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan Jessie Beta Live Minimal
David Hare wrote: > This and similar live iso's only work here in qemu with e.g. " -m 384". > > My hardware can't handle kvm. Even running as root? > D > -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan Jessie Beta Live Minimal
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 12:56:01PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 01:46:20AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: > > David Hare wrote: > > > This and similar live iso's only work here in qemu with e.g. " -m 384". > > > > > > My hardware can't handle kvm. > > > > Even running as root? > > > > Well, it should be sufficient to > > # chmod 666 /dev/kvm > > in order to provide kvm support to regular users. An article points out that allowing users to allocate arbitrary amounts of physical memory may not be the best policy in some environments. You can also join the user to the kvm group: ls -l /dev/kvm crw-rw+ 1 root kvm 10, 232 May 11 11:02 /dev/kvm btw, 'c' means character mode device. Does anyone know what the '+' suffix means, and how you set it? Joel > My2Cents > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan Jessie Beta Live Minimal
KatolaZ wrote: Joel Roth wrote: > > You can also join the user to the kvm group: > > > > ls -l /dev/kvm > > > > crw-rw+ 1 root kvm 10, 232 May 11 11:02 /dev/kvm > > > > btw, 'c' means character mode device. Does anyone know what > > the '+' suffix means, and how you set it? > > > > The "+" means that you have an ACL (Access Control List) set for that > file. You manage ACLs with setfacl and getfacl. Interesting, because of the ACL settings I didn't need to use root nor join the kvm group: $ getfacl /dev/kvm getfacl: Removing leading '/' from absolute path names # file: dev/kvm # owner: root # group: kvm user::rw- user:jroth:rw- group::rw- mask::rw- other::--- I hope these ACLs are used sparingly in Devuan/Debian. The permissions model itself has taken a long time for me to grok. Hmm, so why do files like /etc/apt/sources.list have ACLs? Oh, I see they change automagically when permissions change. Guess I'll look for a tutorial somewheres. I'd thought ACL was something I could ignore, like selinux, without consequence. I think of the analogy with the suprise nay frustration I faced when settings in /etc/someapp not working as expected because of stuff in /etc/default/someapp I hadn't known about. cheers, Joel > HND > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] dealing with wifi
On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 09:27:17PM +0200, emnin...@riseup.net wrote: > Am Sat, 14 May 2016 17:07:06 + > schrieb Didier Kryn : > > > You have mostly two ways to deal with wifi. > > > > 1) you select the station and enter the key everytime you > > connect. 2) your system remembers the ssid's and keys of all stations > > you need and it connects you automatically - this is called > > wifi-roaming. > > > > I think wicd matches the first case only. > > > > AFAIU, ceni allows you to either work according to the first > > method or make the basic configuration of wpa_supplicant for the > > second method, something you can also do with a text editor. There > > are many howtos on the web, search for the following 3 keywords > > "wifi" "roaming" "wpa_supplicant". > > > > wpa_supplicant may or may not invoke the dhcp client, depending > > on what it reads in /etc/network/interfaces. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Didier > > First of all merci! > > If it is about roaming (i.e. memorizing the ssids whereto the computer > was connected, if i'm getting you right), then, wicd does that job. > > If you configure wpa_supplicant with ceni (which also does the job for > wired connections, btw) then, the wifi connection on the next boot is > started *BEFORE* the login screen. > > I'll check a bit and see, how in the end i'll configure the > connections. Principally, to avoid wicd from starting automatically > i'll have to pull out the wicd script out of /etc/init.d/ , correct? > BUT: should there be a service "wpa_supplicant" in /etc/init.d/ ? Actually wicd takes care of starting wpa_supplicant. > TIA > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan Jessie Beta Live Minimal
KatolaZ wrote: > I am working instead to include a runlevel with support for espeakout > and brltty, which will require just a few megabytes and will be far > more useful than zenity. Glad to hear of this. I consider that support for the blind linux user community should be a high priority. > HND > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists
Adam Borowski wrote: > ...the word "pirate", > originally a bandit and murderer (and in places like Somalia, still current!) > yet nowadays its more widespread meaning is "culture spreading activist"[1] > (not just copyright, also, eg, radio), a term of pride for many of us. However, it is worth noting that among historical pirates, governance may have been more egalitarian than, for example, on ships of the East India Company. > [1]. The MAFIAA[2] defines that differently. > [2]. And here, we're close to the original meaning. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Artistic decisions - keyboard mappings
Hi, Having handled many of the issues relating to init system to the point of being able to release Devuan jessie beta, I wonder if Devuan community is ready to support action on other scourges of the linux on personal computer ecosystem. I am thinking specifically of three key mapping bugaboos: 1) CAPSLOCK key under console and X, should be mapped to Control This mapping is compatible with most server administrators preferences, prevents capslock-related mode problems in vim. If this default leads to angry bug reports, at least they will not be sent in all caps ;-) 2) Terminate X via Ctrl-Alt-Backspace Seems like an easy, useful, historic way to kill a malfunctioning X. 3) Disable Print key All my uses have been unintentional. Does anyone use it deliberately? My other wishlist items are: 4) No display manager by default I think the community shouldn't coocoon naive users from the console. The passing familiarity with the terminal that comes with Learning to type username, password, startx and Ctrl-Alt-Backspace (to terminate X) will help the user if and when they ever have trouble with X. That X works so well most of the time, and without manual configuration is a credit to xorg maintainers. Terminating X, and returning to the console would be useful, for example, when fiddling with proprietary video drivers. I'm sure these suggestions are naive for countless reasons, however my muse absolutely urges me to write to you all! HND -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for Removal of slim package from Devuan
Irrwahn wrote: > To the Devs in charge, and to whom it may concern. > > I just filed an issue against the Devuan slim package, > requesting its removal from future Devuan releases. Hi Urban, Thanks for writing this up and posting it. I have no stake, not using slim myself, however I did want to respond. > - > > > Request for Removal of slim package from Devuan > > I hereby request that the slim package, containing the SLiM > Simple Login Manager, be removed from future releases of Devuan, > at least from the Jessie and testing suites. It may have its place > in unstable for the time being. > > The reasoning that leads to this appeal is as follows: > > 1. It has no upstream. >The project has evidently been abandoned, the homepage was >taken off the web, leaving behind a stale github mirror that >as of today carries only a README file dated from 2016-04-12, >containing the following information, verbatim quote: >"Note: This repository was used as backup source and is no >longer maintained." [1] What is the most recent update, besides the README? Okay, I checked the referred link, Sep. 30, 2013. Probably there are other, better maintained window managers. A list of Devuan preferred WMs may be better than simply removing this one. > 2. SLiM has various apparent issues, notably: > * not playing nice with X session managers > * being unable to preserve the last chosen session between logins > * it is a nuisance to provide user support for Not strong arguments, in my opinion. * Not everyone uses X session managers. * Most window manager logins do not offer out-of-the-box for maintaining previous session details. * OPs posted difficulties may not inconvenience all users > 3. It has already been removed from Debian testing and unstable (sic!). >There is reason to suspect it would have been removed from Debian 8, >were it not for the early Jessie freeze on 2014-11-05. > > 4. The Devuan package appears orphaned, the code has not been touched >for about a year. Considering its upstream is no longer maintained >either, the package might impose a security risk not tenable for a >stable release. We can suppose that isn't much research to find and exploit buffer overruns in software except for default applications in major applications used as defaults on major distributions and operating systems. Cheers, > [1] Cf. https://github.com/data-modul/slim -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
