[DNG] Gnome, KDE?
Hi. https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/stable-2nd-candidate-announce-050517 I notice that the above RC2 release notes say "Removed GNOME, KDE, and Cinnamon as DE options in tasksel. These three DEs are still (mostly) installable after the installation is complete, but they are known to suffer from some glitches due to the lack of systemd" I don't see any comment at all about DEs in the LTS 1.0 announcement: https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/stable-jessie-announce-052517 However, they're not available during a DVD installation of Devuan (although I notice that KDE at least does get neatly upgraded if you do a Debian Wheezy -> Devuan Jessie online upgrade). So, are Gnome and KDE currently still "known to suffer from some glitches due to the lack of systemd" (and if so, are these documented anywhere)? Or can these be expected to work as well as XFCE, and as well as Debian Jessie would provide them? Thanks, Antony. -- I don't know, maybe if we all waited then cosmic rays would write all our software for us. Of course it might take a while. - Ron Minnich, Los Alamos National Laboratory Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?
On Tuesday 13 June 2017 08:19:54 Jaromil wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jun 2017, Antony Stone wrote: > > So, are Gnome and KDE currently still "known to suffer from some glitches > > due to the lack of systemd" (and if so, are these documented anywhere)? > > > > Or can these be expected to work as well as XFCE, and as well as Debian > > Jessie would provide them? > > in brief I think we can pretty much anticipate that KDE will work > great on future Devuan distributions, also according to recent tests > made by some enthusiastic members of our community using Plasma on > ASCII. Okay, thanks for the confirmation. > but not GNOME! As with systemd, we are confident this won't hinder > user's freedom of choice since one can always go use Ubuntu or Debian > which are offering that. So, you're saying that if you want Gnome, you have to use systemd - no way round that? > as we managed to reach these goals now we'll move forward making our > distro as universal as possible, hence supporting all DEs that can > work without systemd. Is there a short answer (or can you point me at docs) to the question "what makes a DE dependent on systemd?" Thanks for responding (now that I found the right list to ask on). Antony. -- René Descartes walks in to a bar. The barman asks him "Do you want a drink?" Descartes says "I think not," and disappears. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] new dbus packages for ASCII in experimental -- PLEASE HELP TESTING
On Thursday 15 June 2017 11:18:29 KatolaZ wrote: > On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 12:02:02PM +0200, Svante Signell wrote: > > > > gconf2 is not installed but gconf-service, gconf2-common and libgconf-2-4 > > are. > > > > Are they really needed? Trying to remove any of them causes > > emacs24/emacs25 to be removed. (And that is of course not allowed :( ) > > > > Maybe emacs packages for X should be rebuilt?? > > Hi Svante, > > I was considering that possibility, but didn't really want to go down > that path unless it is strictly needed, since we have far more > important priorities. > > In most of the cases those dependencies do not come from upstream, and > have been instead introduced by Debian packagers, who have made a lot > of effort to entangle as tightly as possible hundreds of packges with > GNOME stuff. How does this work out on a Debian system when you select a different DE, then? > That's really annoying, to be honest, also considering that the desktop > share of GNU/Linux is below 1% of the total market, and that the Debian > share of that small percentage might be less than 5% overall, taking into > account Mint, Ubuntu, and the rest. Well, surely that's an argument for saying "why bother with Linux on the desktop?" or "why bother with Debian on the desktop?" (neither of which I agree with, by the way) rather than "why does Debian focus so strongly on Gnome?" Surely the important measurement is "what percentage of Debian users want to have Gnome as their desktop?" > So we are talking of a relatively useless chain of dependencies introduced > to make happier a relatively minuscle minority of users. It only affects people who have already decided to use (a) GNU/Linux, and (b) Debian (and then (c) want to have choice about their desktop environment), so surely either: - the number of people affected by this decision is so small that there's no point in bothering about it either way or - what's important is the percentage of people who've already made decisions (a) and (b), who are then affected by choice (c). Again, I think the important question is "what percentage of Debian users want Gnome, and what percentage want something else?" That determines what degree of effort is worth putting into integrating, or separating, Gnome and the rest of Debian. > And all this comes from a "universal" operating system I thought that just meant it runs on lots of different hardware, not that it aims to please all of the people all of the time? Antony. -- "Remember: the S in IoT stands for Security." - Jan-Piet Mens Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] new dbus packages for ASCII in experimental -- PLEASE HELP TESTING
On Thursday 15 June 2017 12:23:26 KatolaZ wrote: > On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 12:40:32PM +0200, Antony Stone wrote: > > > How does this work out on a Debian system when you select a different DE, > > then? > > You still get gconf, gnome-keyring, and other goodies installed, even > if you are using xmonad. That's how it works out. And I personally > find it pretty annoying. Hm :( > Just to make an example, it is still very hard for me to understand > why a packge like grace (which is a lesstif program to produce X-Y > plots) should depend on gconf2. The motivation provided by the > maintainer is that he decided to include a thumbnailer which allow > GNOME-related file managers to provide a preview of grace files, and > gconf was not able to add the needed xml stanzas easily if it was not > already installed. Hence, they required gconf to be installed before > grace in order for this thumbnailer to be recognised by gconf. No chance of getting things like this reduced from "depends" to "recommends", I suppose? Antony. -- "Measuring average network latency is about as useful as measuring the mean temperature of patients in a hospital." - Stéphane Bortzmeyer Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Wednesday 21 June 2017 at 14:44:34, KatolaZ wrote: > Steve Jobs understood that users must be won with eyecandies, and on > that side we will never be able to beat Apple. Not because Free > Software cannot produce better eyecandies, but because the newly-won > users, lured through eyecandies, would flee back to Apple as soon as > Apple provides a more appealing set of eyecandies. We should win users > on more fundamental aspects, like freedom, but you cannot force > anybody to be free against their will. Freedom is a choice, to be made > again every single day, and has a cost. I've been following this discussion thread with interest - I'm relatively new on this list, and it's been good to see the debate and opinions going back and forth. A fairly fundamental question strikes me about the entire topic, though: - what is the Devuan project aiming to do, and who for? I can think of a few potential answers to that myself, from the simplistic: - It's Debian without systemd (as far as that is possible / feasible) to a more philosophical: - it's what we wished Debian had been if they hadn't gone down the Gnome / systemd route or maybe just a general: - it's a Linux distro for people who know that they don't want systemd (which, in my opinion, eliminates a very large proportion of "average computer users", who have no interest in what systemd is, but want something to click on so they can use this "computer" tool) If Devuan is aiming to be "a better Linux distro than any other", has anyone actually defined what "better" means and who it applies to? I suppose what I'm really getting at is "who are Devuan's intended user base (or 'market' if you prefer)?" Thanks, Antony. -- "The future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed yet." - William Gibson Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Wednesday 21 June 2017 at 15:08:38, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > This will never happen with Gnome on Linux and some 0815 hardware. Sorry, what's that? Google doesn't give me any clues... Antony. -- I want to build a machine that will be proud of me. - Danny Hillis, creator of The Connection Machine Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Wednesday 21 June 2017 at 15:21:17, rain...@wiwi.uni-frankfurt.de wrote: > 08/15 is a common german expression for "plain vanilla". Aha - danke - ich habe seit ungefähr acht Jahre in Köln gewohnt, aber kannte diesen Ausdruck so weit nicht... https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/08/15_(Redewendung) Antony. > Zitat von Antony Stone : > > On Wednesday 21 June 2017 at 15:08:38, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > >> This will never happen with Gnome on Linux and some 0815 hardware. > > > > Sorry, what's that? Google doesn't give me any clues... -- I just got a new mobile phone, and I called it Titanic. It's already syncing. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Wednesday 21 June 2017 at 23:58:26, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 21/06/2017 at 18:06, Bruce Perens wrote: > > [...] > > > I do seem to hear a lot of the same sentiment as the pro-code guys in > > this discussion. And I know where that goes. We didn't dumb anything > > down, we just got people to participate. And everything was better for > > it. > > I take you read the ignorant Guru's post at > https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/ > Please, would you point us out where are Gnome devs getting "people to > participate"? I think you've mis-read the wording of Bruce's posting - he's not saying that the Gnome people have taken the attitude "We didn't dumb anything down, we just got people to participate. And everything was better for it." He's saying that about his own campaign to remove the Morse requirement from the Ham Radio qualifications. The point is that eliminating an increasingly-obscure and pointless requirement from an entry-level exam to a controlled field of activity resulted in a significantly greater participation in that activity, once people didn't have to jump through that pointless hoop, just to be allowed in to "the club". You're quite right - the Gnome devs are not getting people to participate (unless they already fit the required mindset). Regards, Antony. -- Numerous psychological studies over the years have demonstrated that the majority of people genuinely believe they are not like the majority of people. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] some ASCII issues
On Friday 23 June 2017 at 16:06:52, Jaromil wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > Could that be a side effect of debian/systemd's fusion of /usr with /? > > ?!?!?! did they ?!?!?! > > how is this madness done, via mount -o bind https://wiki.debian.org/UsrMerge > Nevermind if its old news already, I am blown away by this news... https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/ if you want to start feeling annoyed as well as surprised. Antony. -- RTFM may be the appropriate reply, but please specify exactly which FM to R. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Sunday 25 June 2017 at 22:23:24, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 09:23:10PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: > > On 22.06.2017 19:53, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > I manage to get a root accout on my phone. But even root only gets > > > selective access to parts of the file system. And hope you're lucky > > > when you try to guess the names of the its of file system you are > > > allowed to access. Google seems to have found ways to geld root. > > > > By the way: I've already thought of some "GnuDroid" project (and did > > a few experiments), briging the app stuff into GNU world (might even > > be useful for small desktop apps) and just running a minimal GNU/Linux > > w/ GNUdroid on the phone. > > > > Anyone here working on something similar ? > > The big question is whether Android still requires a custom Linux > kernel. I know years ago it did, and the first batch of changes Google > proposed weren't admitted into the Linux kernel. I heard that they > modified their proposal, and that subsequently they did get changes into > the official kernel. Whether it now has *everything* Android needs? I > don't know. > > Google "Android on Linux" and you'll probably find a few relevant links. I suspect the good people at http://www.android-x86.org would know about this - they (re)build kernels for Android (to run on x86 hardware) all the time. Antony. -- The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. - Oscar Wilde Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Devuan download mirrors
Hi. Can anyone tell me the appropriate contact address to discuss setting up another official Devuan mirror? Thanks, Antony. -- Users don't know what they want until they see what they get. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan download mirrors
On Monday 26 June 2017 at 08:26:30, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 11:50:52PM +0200, Antony Stone wrote: > > > > Can anyone tell me the appropriate contact address to discuss setting up > > another official Devuan mirror? > > if it's an ISO mirror, then the instructions are reported below: > > https://files.devuan.org/MIRRORS.txt > > If it's a repo mirror you are talking about, then please contact > either jaromil, or Centurion, or me on #devuan-dev (freenet). Aha, thanks, just what I needed. Antony. -- Someone has stolen all the toilets from New Scotland Yard. Police say they have absolutely nothing to go on. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] WARNING! DO NOT APT-GET UPDATE/UPGRADE ON ASCII
On Wednesday 28 June 2017 at 23:38:16, zap wrote: > Regardless, I thank you for forking debian to remove systemd. I know > little of it, I only know it is less secure and slower to boot/more > resource intensive/slower download speed. but thanks I plan to donate to > your cause perhaps even today. I like to think of systemd in the same way as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_ring_to_rule_them_all It started out as a small thing - seemingly innocuous - and yet its power grows to surround, absorb and encompass all that it encounters, submitting everything to its will, until there is nothing left but itself and its greed. systemd (dare I say it?) had some admirable goals and purposes, but the ways in which its developers went about it (and still do), and the way in which it grows to replace everything in its wake, is firstly just not The Unix Way, and secondly goes against the concept of "my computer; my choice". The systemd people decide things based on "their computer; their choice", without consideration for people who are different from them. (well, that's my opinion (or at least one of them) anyway). Antony. -- This sentence contains exacly three erors. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Questions about Devuan installer
On Saturday 01 July 2017 at 18:17:44, Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > I want to install a brand new, Devuan stable Qemu guest, so I have some > questions: > > 1) What's the name of the current stable version? https://devuan.org/ - current stable is “Jessie” > 2) At what URL can I download the latest network install ISO file for >that version? Picking a mirror at random from the list at https://devuan.org/ Click on http://devuan.smallinnovations.nl Click on "devuan_jessie" Click on "installer-iso" Choose the one you need from the list http://devuan.smallinnovations.nl/?dir=devuan_jessie/installer-iso - either http://devuan.smallinnovations.nl/devuan_jessie/installer- iso/devuan_jessie_1.0.0_i386_NETINST.iso or http://devuan.smallinnovations.nl/devuan_jessie/installer- iso/devuan_jessie_1.0.0_amd64_NETINST.iso > 3) Are there any landmines when installing from this ISO file? Not in my experience, no. > 4) Is Amprolla OK now? Not my area of expertise - maybe someone else will answer this. Antony. -- Programming is a Dark Art, and it will always be. The programmer is fighting against the two most destructive forces in the universe: entropy and human stupidity. They're not things you can always overcome with a "methodology" or on a schedule. - Damian Conway, Perl God Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Questions about Devuan installer
On Saturday 01 July 2017 at 18:29:11, fsmithred wrote: > On 07/01/2017 12:17 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I want to install a brand new, Devuan stable Qemu guest, so I have some > > questions: > > > > 1) What's the name of the current stable version? > > jessie > > > 2) At what URL can I download the latest network install ISO file for > > > >that version? > > files.devuan.org > > > 3) Are there any landmines when installing from this ISO file? > > That depends on what battles you've chosen. If you don't want your > wireless firmware to be automatically installed, you must choose expert > install to be asked what you want. Unlikely on a Qemu guest :) > > 4) Is Amprolla OK now? > > Yes, it was fixed, and it only affected ascii, not jessie. > > -fsr Antony. -- There's a good theatrical performance about puns on in the West End. It's a play on words. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Listserver configuration
On Monday 03 July 2017 at 22:27:44, Gregory Nowak wrote: > On Mon, Jul 03, 2017 at 07:09:29PM +0200, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > > I get lots of those errors in my postfix log: > > > > Jul 3 18:09:16 server postfix/smtpd[2840]: NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT > > from tupac2.dyne.org[178.62.188.7]: 450 4.7.1 : > > Helo command rejected: Host not found; > > from= to= proto=ESMTP > > helo= > > > > Is there some configuration problem with the list mail server? > > I'm not seeing this here, and the A record for tupac2.dyne.org > resolves correctly. Could there be a DNS issue on your end perhaps? tupac2.dyne.org resolves here perfectly well too, however surely the problem being reported by that error message is that the machine tupac2.dyne.org cannot resolve fahrner.name (which also resolves here perfectly okay)? Antony. -- Roses are red, Bacon is too, Poetry's hard, Bacon. with thanks to Claire Davison Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] some ASCII issues
On Wednesday 05 July 2017 at 10:49:30, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > > I twice quoted the thread proving what I reported was just what was > > been > > > > discussed. > > 'It cannot work if what you need to do is feeding the HD controller some > proprietary firmware that cannot legally be embedded in the GPL driver.' > > Has nothing whatsover to do with distribution. Obviously. > > Have a nice day. With someone else. Would you two please take your personal flame war offlist, and argue with each other in private? I think you have both made your points quite sufficiently for the list members to be aware of your opinions, and to decide for themselves how the GPL relates to initrds and distribution. Thank you, Antony Stone -- "In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that the job was already taken." - Douglas Adams Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] some ASCII issues
On Wednesday 05 July 2017 at 10:57:07, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Antony Stone: > > Would you two please take your personal flame war offlist, and argue with > > each other in private? > > I've twice asked the other gentleman to please go away and argue with > someone else. I hope that helps. It would probably help more if you simply stopped responding to his comments on this thread. I believe that would bring his comments to an end also. > As to the rest, the record should show that I have not been flaming the > other gentleman, nor making personal comments of any kind. Accordingly, > I would appreciate it if you did not again so claim. Thank you. Okay, perhaps 'flame' was an inappropriate term, but it's certainly a tedious inter-personal disagreement which the rest of us don't need to share in. On Wednesday 05 July 2017 at 10:59:51, Rick Moen wrote: > Oh, by the way, Anthony, I notice you had: > > From: Antony Stone > > To: dng@lists.dyne.org, Rick Moen, Alessandro Selli > > but also: > > Please reply to the list; > > please *don't* CC me. > > Sauce for the goose, but not for the gander? ;-> Not at all - I have that as a standard sig on all my list postings. If you had something similar I would have replied to you differently. Regards, Antony. -- If you were ploughing a field, which would you rather use - two strong oxen or 1024 chickens? - Seymour Cray, pioneer of supercomputing Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd: Once again the "not-a-bug" attitude, this time regarding a security issue
On Thursday 06 July 2017 at 00:36:51, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Hello. > > I am more and more considering finally switching to Devuan for all of my > systems. > > The "not-a-bug" attitude upstream developers, especially Lennart, show in > > systemd can't handle the process previlege that belongs to user name > startswith number, such as 0day #6237 > https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6237 > > and > > [systemd-devel] Github systemd issue 6237 > https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2017-July/039154.html > > *again* IMHO is inacceptable for security issues like this. Agreed - it's so disappointing to see this sort of public attitude in such a major open source project. It brings down the reputation of open source development :( > I read in german Linux-Magazin that KDE Plasma basically works in Devuan > Jessie… I agree - it does, for a given value of "basically"... > but I am on Debian Unstable with my laptop. And there seem to be > issues with automounting… Yes, you get prompted for the root password at each mount or unmount (as it says in the article)... Slightly irritiating, but the process still works as expected (eg: device names etc). > On my Jessie-Server VM I could just cross-grade to Devuan Jessie, it was > running with sysvinit for a long time anyway. My VM for the backup is Debian > Stretch already. What's the advantage of Devuan for a (non-GUI) server, where you can just run Debian with sysvinit anyway (this works for both Jessie and Stretch)? > Well… maybe I finally arrive at the point where I say goodbye to Debian and > hello to Devuan, at least for the time being. I'm intrigued - if you use Debian Unstable, and you're interested in KDE Plasma, are you using KMail2? Does it actually work for you? Antony. -- "Linux is going to be part of the future. It's going to be like Unix was." - Peter Moore, Asia-Pacific general manager, Microsoft Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan 1.0 with Linux Pro
On Monday 10 July 2017 at 10:04:59, KatolaZ wrote: > Via @jaromil > > http://www.sparkhaus-shop.com/uk/magazines/linux-magazine-linux-pro-magazin > e/eh30201.html# I'm pretty sure Devuan is on that DVD because of the article about Devuan in the German lanugage version of the magazine: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170705.223651.e4bf1129.en.html They don't automatically translate all the articles, but I think they keep the DVD contents the same. Antony. -- Just when you think you're done, a cat floats by with buttered toast strapped to its back. - Steve Krug, "Don't make me think" Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Saturday 15 July 2017 at 09:42:22, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Nice, nobody replied. Eh? On Friday 14 July 2017 at 18:41:34, Rick Moen replied. I agree very much with his comment: "My impression is that you're talking about something nobody upthread has been talking about, and asserting that they did." > This means, nobody has any valid counter arguments to what I wrote. Actually, my guess as to why you didn't get more responses to your posting is that the rest of us thought it wasn't worth bothering. Antony. -- I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are _obviously_ no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no _obvious_ deficiencies. - C A R Hoare Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Sexual politics and society: [was: Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii, ]
On Sunday 16 July 2017 at 19:55:21, Miroslav Rovis wrote: > This modern day and age that we live in, in which perversion is decided to > be normal by a vote of medical scientists, and a vote that was just > slightly in favor (as there were many votes against that decision, just > not the majority) of the decision how that particular aberration in human > sexual behavior that up until that vote was deemed a desease... That that > aberration in human sexual behavior which consisted in attraction and > sexual relashionship btwn man and man and woman and woman instead of btwn > man an woman only, how that aberation ceases, by a medical vote, to be > desease, and becomes normal, and since then, by law, in many countries, > even contradicting that such behavior be normal can put you in trouble... > > This modern day when it must be accepted by anybody that perversion > (perversion as, erhm, scientists claimed it to be, up until that vote, and > can something be truth at one time, and then the same thing become false > in a blink of an... vote?)... > > This modern day when it must be accepted by anybody that perversion is a > normal behavior, else you are labeled bad names and labeled something like > anti-human... Else you are evicted from communities... Because the truth > about those facts "changed" and now you are under legal obligation to > accept to new truth about those facts... > > And what do you want me to? To trust that in this age, as described above > by the worse, as well as the most stupid, and mind boggling aspect of > it... No, I'm not out of topic here, I'm not. This is what marks the > global society today, these new truths... It imbibes it all through, down > to Churches and theology... > > You want me to trust that in this age of ours theologians have become so > clever that all the previous ones were only like little kids, maybe smart, > but, aarrghh... their works based on such poor sources, lacking in real > knowledge, or their understanding so limited... All the previous > theologians in comparison to this day were... probably... stupid, eh?? > > And what do you want me to? To believe that the Hebrew sources were found > just recently and didn't exist previously, such as in Jerome's time (|V > century p.C.)? That Jerome's knowledge of Hebrew was so poor that his > translation of Bible was rife with approximations... > > No, I trust that ancient Church father, whom all the Christian > denominations accept, so much more than the new translations. I had, time > ago, read modern commentaries on some Old Testament texts, and the feeling > still remains of nausea, with all the approximation of the contemprary > exegesis... And of the denial of almost any supernatural meanings of the > Holy Texts. > > It's exactly the other way round, than what you say about accuracy futher > above, and suppose below. > P.S. I hope no one will produce any hatred of same-sex people out of my > words above. By all means, pls. no!, I only regard those facts to be > truthful as deemed, by a long standing majority, previously to that > medical scientists vote, and false after that vote. IOW that the behavior > of those people is an aberration, is a disease. Such people need help to > get normal. But I don't hate them by any means. And I oppose any > discrimination against them. They are of course human beings as any other > human beings. With all the rights as any other human beings. 1. What does this have to do with Devuan? 2. What makes you so certain that the original doctrines of the bible, as written in Hebrew, and quite possibly accurately translated on occasion, represent the "correct" way to live compared to modern beliefs of today? 2a. The bible is not the only "holy scripture" - there are plenty to choose from. Why should two men or two women not marry and enjoy life together? What gives a 2000-year-old view of life and society any greater authority than our current view of life and society? I say "live and let live". If people before me said otherwise, that doesn't automatically make them right and me wrong. Antony. -- Never write it in Perl if you can do it in Awk. Never do it in Awk if sed can handle it. Never use sed when tr can do the job. Never invoke tr when cat is sufficient. Avoid using cat whenever possible. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] "Stretch" plans
On Monday 17 July 2017 at 15:13:54, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 10:24:19AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > > - Devuan Jessie is the current stable and merges Debian Jessie > > - Devuan Ascii will be the next stable and merged Debian Stretch > > - Devuan Beowulf will be the next testing, and will follow Ascii > > You do realize issues when talking about this on Slashdot, naked and > petrified? Eh? > > - Devuan Ceres is and will always be unstable Antony. -- It may not seem obvious, but (6 x 5 + 5) x 5 - 55 equals 5! Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] udev replacement
On Tuesday 18 July 2017 at 15:59:01, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote: > >- Original Message - > >From: "KatolaZ" > >To: > >Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:32 AM > >Subject: Re: [DNG] udev replacement > > > >And also, could you please file a bug report on bugs.devuan.org? > > I have never used it and I do not know how to do it. I do not know if it's > too much for you to do for me. Have you looked at http://bugs.devuan.org/Reporting.html ? You can even submit a report by email - it can't get much simpler than that :) Antony. -- Programming is a Dark Art, and it will always be. The programmer is fighting against the two most destructive forces in the universe: entropy and human stupidity. They're not things you can always overcome with a "methodology" or on a schedule. - Damian Conway, Perl God Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] WICD & DNS & IPv6
On Wednesday 19 July 2017 at 21:18:21, KatolaZ wrote: > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 09:27:37PM +0200, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > > Am 2017-07-19 20:48, schrieb KatolaZ: > > > Which Devuan release are you using? > > > > Jessie > > > > > A de-systemd-ised network-manager is in jessie for sure. > > > > Is this new? > > tried it, seems to work, but there are some network problems. Switched > > back to wicd. > > It has been in Jessie since Jessie has become stable. Please report > only on bugs/misfunctions about the latest version of whatever you are > using :) Also, "some network problems" is not a very helpful bug report :) If you're going to say that something doesn't work properly, please at least say *how* it doesn't work properly... Antony. -- I own three Windows books, published by O'Reilly. They are "Windows Annoyances", "Office 97 Annoyances" and "Windows 98 Annoyances". That pretty much sums it up for me. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] WICD & DNS & IPv6
On Thursday 20 July 2017 at 07:18:34, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > Am 2017-07-19 22:21, schrieb Antony Stone: > > Also, "some network problems" is not a very helpful bug report :) > > > > If you're going to say that something doesn't work properly, please at > > least say *how* it doesn't work properly... > > I'm sorry, but I did not have the time to investigate this further. > There were intermittent connectivity problems. Since they never happened > with wicd, the easiest way was to switch back to wicd. Intermittent > connectivity problems are extremely difficult to analyze, because you > cannot reproduce them on demand. So how would you describe them for a > bug report? Well, "intermittent connectivity" is a good start :) "Some network problems" could mean anything - connectivity, latency, bandwidth, CPU usage, changing IP addresses... the list goes on. Any detail at all is better than no detail. Antony. -- "this restriction will not apply in the event of the occurrence (certified by the United States Centers for Disease Control or successor body) of a widespread viral infection transmitted via bites or contact with bodily fluids that causes human corpses to reanimate and seek to consume living human flesh, blood, brain or nerve tissue and is likely to result in the fall of organized civilization." - https://aws.amazon.com/service-terms/ paragraph 57.10 Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Yes you have standing to sue GRSecurity.
On Saturday 29 July 2017 at 13:55:54, ni...@redchan.it wrote: > It has come to my attention that some entities are claiming that you, > dear Linux Hackers, (1)need to go through some foundation or get some > permission from upon high in-order to sue the progenitors of GRSecurity Example? Antony. -- 90% of networking problems are routing problems. 9 of the remaining 10% are routing problems in the other direction. The remaining 1% might be something else, but check the routing anyway. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Yes I am an attorney. - Re: Identity of OP (Software written by contractors and the 'work for hire') concept - To Bruce Perens
On Tuesday 01 August 2017 at 21:10:10, su...@firemail.cc wrote: > Prescient analysis! (of the legal ramifications of doing nothing in this > case!) > Well done sir! > > How about someone who is studied in the law to a degree greater than a > draft animal responding instead? > > (Basically you said: I don't understand! Why should I care! And then you > went back to your labor for whomever your master is) No, he said "Go away". If we're making a big mistake by ignoring your advice, bad for us. Our decision. Now, thank you for your opinion, please stop repeating it. Antony. On 2017-08-01 18:44, Rowland Penny wrote: > Go away, you are not welcome here, you just talk a lot of twaddle that > has nothing really to do with Devuan, you are just taking up bandwidth, > I repeat (using an old english saying) SLING YOUR HOOK! -- Users don't know what they want until they see what they get. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Excessive bounces
On Wednesday 02 August 2017 at 16:21:34, Jaromil wrote: > On Wed, 02 Aug 2017, Emiliano Marini wrote: > >Sorry to bother, but it's the second time this happens to me: > > > >"Your membership in the mailing list Dng has been disabled due to > >excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated > >23-Jul-2017." > > > >I have a Gmail account, it's Google's fault? or maybe some issue with > >Mailman? > > I am a bit puzzled about this one, we had some reports of the problem > so far, which hasn't occurred before on any other dyne list and is not > really reproducible. > > what we notice is that our mail server is under some quite heavy load > and we are working to move it to a bigger infrastructure by september > > however it is highly available already and seems to process > everything, so I'm not really sure what is happening... any insight is > welcome. Is it possible to check the mail server logs for delivery failures on the problematic addresses (which is presumably what the warning email means by "bounces") to see what reason was given by the receiving server? Antony. -- Schrödinger's rule of data integrity: the condition of any backup is unknown until a restore is attempted. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Switching
On Saturday 05 August 2017 at 11:28:02, Weaver wrote: > Greetings. > Currently running Debian SID, with separate /, swap, and /home > partitions. > I don't suppose switching is as easy as simply replacing the / partition > with a new install, preserving the old data? Depends what you mean by "replacing with a new install". If you mean "install Devuan on a new partition, change grub and fstab to mount that partition under /, and then reboot", then all your data in /home will be as it was, certainly - no problems there - however you'll need to reconfigure anything/everything you had in /etc and so on. Personally I would take a backup of / and then try doing a dist-upgrade on it; if that works you've kept all your application configs etc; if it almost works you might be able to do a bit of manual hacking to sort out a small number of packages which didn't quite understand what was happening to them; if it really doesn't work then you still have your backup and can revert to that and think again. Please let us know what you do and how it goes. Welcome to Devuan :) Antony. -- "It is easy to be blinded to the essential uselessness of them by the sense of achievement you get from getting them to work at all. In other words - and this is the rock solid principle on which the whole of the Corporation's Galaxy-wide success is founded - their fundamental design flaws are completely hidden by their superficial design flaws." - Douglas Noel Adams Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Thursday 24 August 2017 at 10:24:56, Narcis Garcia wrote: > ...Wolkswagen Beetle ... > ...Volkswagens of various models > ...mom's 1967 1300 Beetle... > ...Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"... > ...trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will... > ...Italian history is quite different from Polish history... > > What are you talking about? > It's difficult for non-native english speaking people to feel sense to > this kind of threads in a list supposed to be about Devuan GNU+Linux 1. Well said. 2. You don't have to be a non-native English speaker to realise that a lot of this off-topic drivel does not make sense. 3. To those who have been posting it - please stop, and get back on-topic about making Devuan a better distribution. Antony. -- Why is "dylexia" so difficult to spell, and why can I never remember "aphasia" when I want to? Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Thursday 24 August 2017 at 22:04:40, Steve Litt wrote: > On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 10:28:55 +0200 > > Antony Stone wrote: > > > > 3. To those who have been posting it - please stop, and get back > > on-topic about making Devuan a better distribution. > > Ummm, no. Part of making a better Devuan distribution is deciding > intelligently whether to: > > 1) Call the interface enpo22f4gtx > 2) Call the interface eth0 > 3) Have the kernel call it enpo22f4gtx and have a user utility deduce >it to something like $eth0of1 Agreed. That has absolutely nothing to do with Soviet censorship, Volkwagen starter motors, Polish politics, and whatever else has been going on in these threads over the past few days. So, please keep talking about ethernet interface names - I agree that that's important (and, for what it's worth, my preference is to stick with ethX as a default, but provide the option to use the MAC address instead as a UUID equivalent) Antony. -- This sentence contains exacly three erors. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Talos, Intel, libre purism, ...
On Thursday 07 September 2017 at 13:59:01, Narcis Garcia wrote: > This thread has now 86 posts, and I still don't see a solid contribution > to Devuan project. > This makes very heavy to be subscribed in a mailing list for people like > me, that are looking a good alternative to Debian/Systemd, not only in > software but also in community. I'm strongly inclined to agree. Perhaps we could have something like a "devuan-discuss" list for the philosophy and the disagreements, leaving this list for discussions actually directly related to developing or using Devuan? Antony. -- Wanted: telepath. You know where to apply. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OT: (almost), but tangentially on-topic Re: Purism Librem and disabling Intel ME: it can be done [ Re: TALOS 2 - The Libre Owner Controlled POWER9 Workstation/Server ]
On Thursday 07 September 2017 at 17:34:48, Rowland Penny wrote: > On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 01:23:29 +1000 Erik Christiansen wrote: > > > > Losing your temper in an infantile manner is not. And it won't. > > No I didn't lose my temper, I just shouted because you lot must be deaf. Just because someone doesn't do what you say does not mean they did not hear you. Shouting is (in my opinion) ill-mannered and unlikely to achieve your objectives with the people you feel need shouting at. > > > I don't care about your drivel, it has nothing directly to do with > > > Devuan > > > > Then don't read this thread. By all means divert it to your spam > > folder, if you have the competence. > > I do have the competence, but why should I have to, why should I not > complain after 80 posts of drivel ? It's your choice to be on this list, and it's your choice whether to continue reading a thread you clearly think is irrelevant to you. I also think this thread should move elsewhere, but having expressed my opinion, if the thread continues, my next choice would simply be to ignore it. > No sorry, but at 61 years of age, I feel that I am as mature as I am > likely to get. Oh, well in that case maybe you just need to get a bigger delete key. Regards, Antony. -- Users don't know what they want until they see what they get. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] upgrade from Debian stretch to Devuan ascii?
On Sunday 17 September 2017 at 21:30:16, Adam Borowski wrote: > With KVM, there's no need for X to run as root. I don't see the connection between these two - are you talking about the virtualisation framework and the graphical windowing environment? Unless I've got my abbreviations screwed up, please elaborate on your comment? Thanks, Antony. -- "Once you have a panic, things tend to become rather undefined." - murble Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What if...
On Monday 18 September 2017 at 12:46:34, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: > ...I upgrade my Debian Wheezy LTS to Devuan Jessie ? It works for me... > What happens then to those packages I need/use which are not in the Devuan > repositories ? They will not get upgraded. > Will the older versions still run ? Or will the upgrade remove them ? As far as I know, a dist-upgrade *never* removes packages. Especially not packages it doesn't even know about (eg: if they're not part of Devuan Jessie). > Or, if they have no systemd dependencies, can I install the Debian Jessie > versions ? What packages have you found in Debian Jessie which have no systemd dependencies and are not in Devuan Jessie? > Worried, on the banks of the Paraguay River Take a backup and try it :) Create a copy in a VM and try it :) Install a minimal Debian Wheezy, add some of your possibly problematic packages, and try the upgrade :) Antony. -- This email was created using 100% recycled electrons. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What if...
On Monday 18 September 2017 at 14:27:04, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 12:59:20 +0100, KatolaZ wrote in message > > > > There is no need to be worried. Devuan Jessie is running on thousands > > of servers out there, as is Devuan ASCII doing. > > ..for _some_ people, this worry is not just about "whether Devuan > Jessie works", this is also about whether they have a job and can > pay for their childrens food and home the next few months. > Which is exactly why they stuck their neck out and recommended > "rock solid" Debian Wheezy _LTS_, years ago when it was rock solid. > > ..and it's why I voiced my idea of a "Devuan Wheezy LTS 0.x" style fork. > We can expect these people to volonteer work for us like what they > have for debian.org, once they see us as a viable way forward for > themseves, careerwise and financially. We have Devuan Jessie LTS. There's a perfectly good migration process from Debian Wheezy to Devuan Jessie. I don't think there's any point in Devuan attempting to support the outdated packages in Debian Wheezy when we are already offering an escape route to those syadmins who've chosen to stick with Wheezy because they don't want systemd. I'd say there are two categories of people still (deliberately) running Wheezy: 1. Those who would upgrade to Jessie except for systemd. 2. Those who don't want to upgrade something that's still working. Devuan Jessie is the solution for group 1, and there is no solution for group 2 because they're happy with what they've already got. Antony. -- I wasn't sure about having a beard at first, but then it grew on me. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Another problem with systemd and I will switch to devuan
On Monday 18 September 2017 at 14:37:31, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 13:56:53 +0100, KatolaZ wrote in message > > > There is no need at all to convert an existing Debian repo to be > > used as a back-end of a Devuan repo. Only a few simple http rewrites. > > ..aye, that's my current understanding. :o) > > ..the Debian mirror sizes nowadays are: > https://www.debian.org/mirror/size > > ..what size is http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/ now? Well, given that: On Monday 18 September 2017 at 12:59:20, KatolaZ wrote: > 95% of the packages in Devuan Jessie are the same as in Debian > Jessie. So in most cases you will be using packages from Debian > Jessie, even if you get those through an automatic redirect from the > Devuan repo. a first approximation would be that the Devuan repository is 5% of the size of the Debian ones. Antony. -- If you can smile when all about you things are going wrong, you must have someone in mind to take the blame. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What if...
On Monday 18 September 2017 at 15:54:16, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 14:35:24 +0100, Antony wrote: > > On Monday 18 September 2017 at 14:27:04, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > ..and we still haven't proven it good enough for many of them. > And that can _only_ happen on Devuan Jessie LTS' own merit. So, we focus on getting people to use Devuan Jessie - not Wheezy. > > I don't think there's any point in Devuan attempting to support the > > outdated packages in Debian Wheezy when we are already offering an > > escape route to those syadmins who've chosen to stick with Wheezy > > because they don't want systemd. > > ..you missed my "_minimal_." ;o) > I agree supporting outdated stuff is a waste of time and good > manpower, it'll only be useful to help people update to Devuan > Jessie etc. I don't see the purpose of having a Devuan Wheezy. After all, Debian Wheezy is systemd-free by default (yes, you can install it yourself if you want to, but people who've done that aren't looking for Devuan), so what's the benefit in us advertising a "systemd-free Wheezy" to the world? Anyone doing a review of it would say "this is Debian with some optional packages taken out". > ..according to http://popcon.debian.org/ 30809 had popularity-contest > 1.56 (wheezy) installed, about 11000 more have even older versions, > and according to our own http://popcon.devuan.org/ and to > http://popcon.debian.org/ we still don't match the 2693 who might > still have 1.46 (lenny) installed. > > ..plenty good manpower out there we could use here. ;o) What do you expect that "manpower" to do? Not everyone running Debian as a sysadmin (or end user) is going to contribute to the Devuan project. > > 2. Those who don't want to upgrade something that's still working. > > > > Devuan Jessie is the solution for group 1, and there is no solution > > for group 2 because they're happy with what they've already got. > > ..once we have proven e.g. Devuan Jessie LTS etc on their own > merits, they might get curious and wanna try our stuff and wind > up helping out. Just give it time. ;o) 1. Anyone who's running Debian Squeeze or earlier isn't failing to upgrade because of systemd, therefore Devuan isn't an argument in their case. 2. Anyone running Debian Wheezy is either systemd-free, in which case Devuan Wheezy would be identical, or else they've installed systemd themselves, which presumably means they want to run it, and therefore aren't interested in Devuan. 3. Anyone running Debian Wheezy who wants to upgrade to Jessie can upgrade to Devuan Jessie to avoid systemd. If there are problems with that upgrade process, *that*'s what we need help with debugging and fixing. 4. Anyone running Debian Jessie who wants to get away from systemd can also upgrade to Devuan Jessie. Again, if there are problems with that upgrade, that's where we need help, not with taking Debian Wheezy, stripping out the optional systemd bits, and relabelling it as Devuan. Antony. -- She did not swoon, but she did get a look on her face that said 'This conversation is over', which Jack took as a sign he was going in the right direction. - Neal Stephenson, Quicksilver Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tuesday 19 September 2017 at 15:16:58, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > > > I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd. > > But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was > > for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area. > > What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ? In this situation I'd guess the answer is familiarity. Antony. -- Archaeologists have found a previously-unknown dinosaur which seems to have had a very large vocabulary. They've named it Thesaurus. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Yunit
On Wednesday 20 September 2017 at 23:41:15, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2017 20 Sep 06:36 -0500, J. Fahrner wrote: > > Am 2017-09-20 13:08, schrieb Nate Bargmann: > > >I am still puzzled how a desktop GUI can depend on init system. > > >Services, yes, an init, not so much. > > > > Because systemd is not only an init system, it provides a lot of services > > too. > > I'll admit to not following its development the past couple of years or > longer. What services does it offer that aren't available through > stand-alone daemons besides logind and journalctl? https://www.linux.com/learn/understanding-and-using-systemd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ Antony. -- I own three Windows books, published by O'Reilly. They are "Windows Annoyances", "Office 97 Annoyances" and "Windows 98 Annoyances". That pretty much sums it up for me. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Life under Devuan is impossible.
On Sunday 08 October 2017 at 03:34:00, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 09:20:18 -0300 > > "Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI" wrote: > > Since I updated my Debian Wheezy to Devuan Jessie I am unable to > > access USB drives to store data. > > My experience is that upgrading between major versions is a probable > fail, so why in the world would anyone upgrade between distros? Because it's documented as a reasonable thing to do on Devuan.org's front page? "Devuan Jessie provides continuity as a safe upgrade path from Debian 7 (Wheezy) and a flawless switch from Debian 8 (Jessie)" > > Is there a way to move from Devuan Jessie to Debian Jessie without > > catching the systemd pox ? > > Yeah. Back up, lay down fresh Devuan Jessie, and restore your data. The question was about moving from *Devuan* Jessie to *Debian* Jessie. I've never tried this, so I don't know the answer (but I've done several machines from Debian Wheezy to Devuan Jessie without problems). > A known state is wonderful. That's why GIT defines the state after > every commit. By the time you replace your worn out Debian Wheezy, you > have no idea what kind of state your system is in. And Devuan can't be > expected to sort all that out for you. Not really. Whilst version control is a wonderful thing, and I can't disagree with your comments, this is far more extreme than most sysadmins are going to do in practice, and migrating from one distro to another (Debian Wheezy to Jessie, or Debian Wheezy to Devuan Jessie) really is done every day by plenty of people without problems. > Yes, I know, I know, a dozen people will stand up right now and shout > that their major upgrades always work and they haven't had to backup, > format, install fresh and restore data since Debian 3.0, Glad you expected one, at least :) > and the only reason they had to do that was because. OK fine, for sure for > sure, they got lucky. No, it's a supported part of the Debian package management system which people have been using and appreciating for a very long time. > And they have little understanding of what bizarre config file contraptions > are wiring together their modern software with deprecated wierdness. They don't need to understand this when a package management system deals with it for them. > Anyone this allergic to a fresh install should be using a rolling release. By which I assume you mean something like Gentoo, where you can never be sure you have two machines with the same setup, because there's no way to know quite what you have on different servers which were upgraded on different days? > And perhaps the most important, they annually missed opportunities to do > spring cleaning and get that box in a state they can understand. Now that is certainly good advice. > Respect your time and mental energy: Back up, format, install fresh, > then VERY SELECTIVELY restore data, and I mean data, not config. To > redo config, go in the new file and type in values, looking at the old > file for guidance if needed. You'll have a solid Devuan. Yes, you will, and you'll have taken so long over the process that if this is a work machine, your boss will wonder what the hell you've been doing for the past week, and will not condone doing the same thing to the other 42 servers. Antony. -- Bill Gates has personally assured the Spanish Academy that he will never allow the upside-down question mark to disappear from Microsoft word-processing programs, which must be reassuring for millions of Spanish-speaking people, though just a piddling afterthought as far as he's concerned. - Lynne Truss, "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Life under Devuan is impossible.
On Saturday 07 October 2017 at 14:20:18, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > Is there a way to move from Devuan Jessie to Debian Jessie without catching > the systemd pox ? Depending on whether you use any applications which have dependencies on systemd, you can certainly run Debian Jessie without systemd. It uses systemd by default, but it's trivial to remove and replace with sysvinit, provided you haven't installed anything which requires systemd. If you're starting from Devuan, this is unlikely to be the case... I've never tried migrating a Devuan Jessie system to Debian Jessie, but I have done it the other way around, and this is what the dist-upgrade part did for me: # apt-get dist-upgrade Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done Calculating upgrade... Done The following packages will be REMOVED: systemd-sysv The following NEW packages will be installed: e2fsprogs init libfdisk1 libss2 sysvinit-core The following packages will be upgraded: base-files bsdutils debian-archive-keyring init-system-helpers initscripts libblkid1 libmount1 libsmartcols1 libuuid1 lsb-base lsb-release mount sysv-rc sysvinit-utils util-linux uuid-runtime 16 upgraded, 5 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded. So, only 5 new packages got installed, and 16 upgraded. It seems reasonable to me to assume that much the same would be the case for a Devuan Jessie -> Debian Jessie "upgrade". I'd say it's certainly worth a backup and a try. Antony. -- This space intentionally has nothing but text explaining why this space has nothing but text explaining that this space would otherwise have been left blank, and would otherwise have been left blank. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Upgrade to ascii not possible?
On Thursday 12 October 2017 at 17:24:42, Yevgeny Kosarzhevsky wrote: > Hello, > > I am trying to upgrade from devuan jessie and get unresolved deps for > rsyslog. aptitude shows: depends on init-system-helpers >= 1.47~ > (UNAVAILABLE) What do you get for each of: aptitude search init-system-helpers apt-cache policy init-system-helpers ? Antony. > On 12 October 2017 at 21:01, Svante Signell wrote: > > On Thu, 2017-10-12 at 08:47 -0400, fsmithred wrote: > > > On 10/11/2017 08:15 PM, Yevgeny Kosarzhevsky wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I've stuck on upgrading to ascii as there is no init-system-helpers > > > > available. > > > > Is there any solution? > > > > > > I see it in ascii main repo. What error message are you getting? > > > > > > 1.46+devuan1.0 0 > > > 100 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ ascii/main amd64 Packages > > > > The latest version is really 1.48+devuan2.0 as of today. -- This is not a rehearsal. This is Real Life. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Upgrade to ascii not possible?
On Thursday 12 October 2017 at 17:51:44, Yevgeny Kosarzhevsky wrote: > On 12 October 2017 at 23:37, Antony Stone < > > antony.st...@devuan.open.source.it> wrote: > > > I am trying to upgrade from devuan jessie and get unresolved deps for > > > rsyslog. aptitude shows: depends on init-system-helpers >= 1.47~ > > > (UNAVAILABLE) > > > > What do you get for each of: > > > > aptitude search init-system-helpers > > ~# aptitude search init-system-helpers > i init-system-helpers - helper tools for all init systems Grrr - sorry, I meant to ask for "aptitude show init-system-helpers", but the below answers my question anyway... > > apt-cache policy init-system-helpers > > ~# apt-cache policy init-system-helpers > init-system-helpers: > Installed: 1.46+devuan1.0 > Candidate: 1.46+devuan1.0 > Version table: > *** 1.46+devuan1.0 500 > 500 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii/main amd64 Packages > 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status So, you're only seeing 1.46+devuan1.0 > > > On 12 October 2017 at 21:01, Svante Signell wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2017-10-12 at 08:47 -0400, fsmithred wrote: > > > > > > > > > > 1.46+devuan1.0 0 > > > > > 100 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ ascii/main amd64 Packages > > > > > > > > The latest version is really 1.48+devuan2.0 as of today. Which is confirmed from https://packages.devuan.org/devuan/pool/main/i/init-system-helpers/ So, it beats me why you're not seeing that version available :( You *have* done an "apt-get update" first, haven't you :) ? Antony. -- I have an excellent memory. I can't think of a single thing I've forgotten. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Debian testing drop redis non systemd
On Friday 20 October 2017 at 16:33:09, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 04:27:44PM +0200, John Hughes wrote:
> > Jaromil wrote:
> > > I would like to know here if anyone knows in detail the "reasons"
> > > Debian is removing the support for sysvinit scripts in the redis
> > > package.
> >
> > Wouldn't it be more to the point to find out *if* Debian is removing the
> > support for sysvinit scripts in the redis package before trying to find
> > out why?
> >
> > Because they aren't.
>
> [...]
>
> > The Debian supplied init scripts (debian/redis-server.init and
> > debian/redis-sentinel.init) still exist, they just no longer include the
> > (Debian specific) calls to "Run_parts".
> >
> > These init scripts do not exist in the upstream redis distribution. They
> > were added by Debian.
> >
> > My apologies for posting to a list from which I have been banned, but I
> > thought it might be wise to have a little more light and a little less
> > heat.
>
> Thanks for the correction -- that's always appreciated.
However, Bardot Jérôme's original posting in this thread, quoting Chris Lamb
Wed, 11 Oct 2017 22:55:00 -0400 said:
"This version drops the Debian-specific support for the
/etc/redis/redis-{server}.sentinel.{pre,post}-{up,down}.d directories in
favour of using systemd's ExecStartPre, ExecStartPost, ExecStopPre,
ExecStopPost commands."
So, yes, what's been dropped is Debian-specific, but shouldn't we still be
concerned about the "in favour of systemd's ... commands"?
Antony.
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Re: [DNG] Amprolla3 is out for testing
On Sunday 22 October 2017 at 23:28:51, Fungal-net wrote: > I am still unclear on what the onion repositories are Me too - what are you referrring to? > and what our choice is at this stage. Are we on amprolla3? Well, according to what I've seen on the list so far, if you have "auto.mirror.devuan.org" in your sources.list, then you're on the old amprolla; if you have "pkgmaster.devuan.org", then you're on the new amprolla3. > Are debian's non onion addressed used automatically during upgrade I still don't quite understand what "onion" means here. > or is it an illusion to see http://debian through while the update > takes place? Plenty (in fact most) of Devuan's packages are just plain Debian packages, redirected to the Devuan repository. Basically, anything which does not depend on systemd is a plain Debian package, and you end up getting it from a Debian repository. Anything which does (did?) depend on systemd is served (as a package without the systemd dependencies etc) from the Devuan repository. I hope that helps (and I hope I find out what "onion" means here), Antony. -- What do you call a dinosaur with only one eye? A Doyouthinkesaurus. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Amprolla3 is out for testing
On Monday 23 October 2017 at 00:39:29, Fungi4All wrote: > go to devuan''s front page and run a text search for onion > it is right there You mean accessing the Devuan repositories via the Tor network? That's a network routing question, not a repository question. Antony. > > From: Antony Stone > > To: Devuan > > > > On Sunday 22 October 2017 at 23:28:51, Fungal-net wrote: > >> I am still unclear on what the onion repositories are > >> > >> Me too - what are you referrring to? > >> > >> and what our choice is at this stage. Are we on amprolla3? > >> > >> Well, according to what I've seen on the list so far, if you have > >> "auto.mirror.devuan.org" in your sources.list, then you're on the old > >> amprolla; if you have "pkgmaster.devuan.org", then you're on the new > >> amprolla3. > >> > >> Are debian's non onion addressed used automatically during upgrade > >> > >> I still don't quite understand what "onion" means here. > >> > >> or is it an illusion to see http://debian through while the update > >> takes place? > >> > >> Plenty (in fact most) of Devuan's packages are just plain Debian > >> packages, redirected to the Devuan repository. > >> > >> Basically, anything which does not depend on systemd is a plain Debian > >> package, and you end up getting it from a Debian repository. Anything > >> which does (did?) depend on systemd is served (as a package without the > >> systemd dependencies etc) from the Devuan repository. > >> > >> I hope that helps (and I hope I find out what "onion" means here), > >> > >> Antony. -- Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. > Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > Top-posting. > > > What is the most annoying way of replying to e-mail? Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ..proper use of /merged and /devuan, was: Trouble with apt-get upgrade over TOR
On Tuesday 24 October 2017 at 21:37:38, lpb+dev...@kandl.houston.tx.us wrote: > I didn't change anything on my side, and now it seems to be working. Please could you clarify what configuration you are using now, so we can know what you haven't changed and is working :) I for one would be interested to understand the distinction between /devuan and /merged for these repositories... Antony. > On 10/24/2017 02:18 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 18:26:45 +0100, KatolaZ wrote in message > > > > <20171024172645.gy4...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > >> jessie-proposed is under /devuan > >> jessie-proposed-updates is under /devuan > >> experimental is under /devuan > > > > ..are you now saying these 3 should be /devuan and NOT /merged? > > > >> The rest is under /merges, if I have not missed something. > >> > >>> I think there is proposed-security as well. > > > > ..these 4 should be /devuan, the rest should be /merged, AIUI. -- You can spend the whole of your life trying to be popular, but at the end of the day the size of the crowd at your funeral will be largely dictated by the weather. - Frank Skinner Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks
On Tuesday 31 October 2017 at 16:40:13, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:08:55PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > I always try to boot MBR. > > Beyond a certains size of disk you need GPT partitioning. Is it > still possible to use MBR boot on a GPT disk? Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table#MBR_variants Linux utilities such as gdisk and grub will quite happily install a protective MBR partition on a 2+Tb disk and this lets you use big disks on machines which only recognise MBR. Here's an example from a 3Tbyte disk I have here in an HP NL40 Microserver: # fdisk -l /dev/sda WARNING: GPT (GUID Partition Table) detected on '/dev/sda'! The util fdisk doesn't support GPT. Use GNU Parted. Disk /dev/sda: 3000.6 GB, 3000592982016 bytes 256 heads, 63 sectors/track, 363376 cylinders, total 5860533168 sectors Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes Disk identifier: 0x Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 1 4294967295 2147483647+ ee GPT # gdisk -l /dev/sda GPT fdisk (gdisk) version 0.8.5 Partition table scan: MBR: protective BSD: not present APM: not present GPT: present Found valid GPT with protective MBR; using GPT. Disk /dev/sda: 5860533168 sectors, 2.7 TiB Logical sector size: 512 bytes Disk identifier (GUID): E1C51CB7-22C1-4EAD-BFB0-A63DE10FBCC6 Partition table holds up to 128 entries First usable sector is 34, last usable sector is 5860533134 Partitions will be aligned on 2048-sector boundaries Total free space is 2014 sectors (1007.0 KiB) Number Start (sector)End (sector) Size Code Name 120484095 1024.0 KiB EF02 BIOS boot partition 2409641947135 20.0 GiBFD00 Linux RAID 34194713644044287 1024.0 MiB 8200 Linux swap 444044288 5860533134 2.7 TiB FD00 Linux RAID Antony. -- Numerous psychological studies over the years have demonstrated that the majority of people genuinely believe they are not like the majority of people. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] netiquette
On Friday 01 December 2017 at 23:10:10, Svante Signell wrote: > PS: Who is the best female skier currently? Downhill, slalom, cross-country, or other? Antony. -- Is it venison for dinner again? Oh deer. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] two dhcp configurations
On Saturday 09 December 2017 at 22:34:34, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Somehow I have two dhcp configuration files: > > /etc/dhcp/dhcpd.conf > > and > > /etc/dhcpd.conf > > on my Devuan Jessie system, which was upgraded from Debian preJessie > (I forget what that one was called) > > They have similar, but not identical contents. Both have had items > added locally to define permanent IP numbers, and not quite the > same ones. So, choose one of those corresponding to a machine on your network, find out what IP address it has, and you'll know which configuration file was used to allocate it. > Which one of these should I be updating? And which should I remove? > Or is the story or complicated than that? No, you should only have one (and my bet is that /etc/dhcpd.conf is the bogus one). Antony. -- Schrödinger's rule of data integrity: the condition of any backup is unknown until a restore is attempted. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
On Tuesday 12 December 2017 at 19:29:43, Edward Bartolo wrote: > On 12/12/2017, Ralph Ronnquist wrote: > > Edward Bartolo wrote on 12/12/17 07:30: > >> > >> Those are not "bugs" but new features. That is the reason for "wontfix". > > > > Run along, Wally. Let the grown-ups talk. > > Oh, come on. Have some sense of humour! Didn't you see the sarcasm in > my comment? Email is a notoriously bad medium for conveying tone of voice. Antony. -- A user interface is like a joke. If you have to explain it, it means it doesn't work. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Working with ASCII *ERRATUM*
On Friday 22 December 2017 at 11:53:15, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 22/12/2017 à 08:58, Didier Kryn a écrit :
> > PS please find my patch in attachment.
>
> This was the wrong patch, against /lib/udev/ifupdown-hotplug,
> falsely renamed.
>
> Now I attach the right one.
>
> Didier
>
>
> check-link-state.patch
> --- networking~ 2016-09-16 15:02:20.0 +0200
> +++ networking 2017-12-18 17:25:49.902781233 +0100
> @@ -112,7 +112,12 @@ ifup_hotplug () {
> done)
> if [ -n "$ifaces" ]
> then
> - ifup $ifaces "$@" || true
> + # link detection does not work unless we up the link
> + ip link set "$iface" up || true
> + if [ "$(cat /sys/class/net/$link/operstate)" = up ]
Doesn't that "up" need quotation marks around it there?
> + then
> + echo "$iface"
> + fi
> fi
> fi
> }
Antony.
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Re: [DNG] Summary of investigations on Lid open/close in ASCII. A simple solution
On Friday 29 December 2017 at 10:44:16, Didier Kryn wrote: > Found a simple solution to suspend on lid close: > > 1) uninstall xfce4-power-manager (probably true with power-managers > from other DEs). It doesn't work and it prevents the default acpi > methods to be called. > > 2) edit /etc/default/acpi-support > uncomment line 36: #LID_SLEEP=true > uncomment line 40: #LID_SHUTDOWN=true > > The second parameter tells the script to shutdown if suspend fails. > It isn't mandatory, but I would recommend it for a laptop. > > Push the power button to resume. Opening the lid isn't enough. I notice your original posting said: On Thursday 28 December 2017 at 11:05:43, Didier Kryn wrote: > My HP EliteBook running ASCII doesn't suspend when I close the lid. > It used to do with Debian Wheezy. Did the machine wake up again on opening the lid under Debian Wheezy or did you have to operate the power button there as well? This sounds like a hardware feature of the particular laptop to me. Antony. -- Software development can be quick, high quality, or low cost. The customer gets to pick any two out of three. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] upgrade to ascii
On Sunday 31 December 2017 at 19:02:41, Hendrik Boom wrote: > So is this what I should have in my /etc/apt/sources.list to upgrade > from jessie to ascii? > > deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii main > deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates main > deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii-security main > deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii-backports main > > and nothing else? 1. That worked for me a couple of days ago. 2. I was surprised when I couldn't find this documented on the Devuan website anywhere. Antony. -- "The tofu battle I saw last weekend was quite brutal." - Marija Danute Brigita Kuncaitis Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ascii clearlooks-phenix-darkpurpy-theme (with OB)
On Thursday 04 January 2018 at 21:31:37, fsmithred wrote: > On 01/04/2018 12:59 AM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > the ascii clearlooks-phenix-darkpurpy-theme for openbox > > https://transfer.sh/RMGzg/clearlooks-phenix-darkpurpy-theme_7.0.1-1+devuan2 > .0_all%20%282%29.deb > > > That link/filename looks funky. Please define "funky". At least in terms of "good" or "bad". I have no idea how to interpret the sentence. > This one might work better: > http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/cpdp/clearlooks-phenix-darkpurpy-t > heme_7.0.1-1+devuan2.0_all.deb > > To clarify one point: The theme is for xfce and openbox. Regards, Antony. -- Never write it in Perl if you can do it in Awk. Never do it in Awk if sed can handle it. Never use sed when tr can do the job. Never invoke tr when cat is sufficient. Avoid using cat whenever possible. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] bluetooth hci0: firmware: failed to load intel/ibt-12-16.sfi
On Monday 08 January 2018 at 17:20:42, Lars Noodén wrote: > The Blueman Assistant appears to let me turn the bluetooth adapter on or > off. However, when I go to actually set up a new device, it claims no > adapters found. > > bluetoothctl can connect to the daemon but cannot find any devices either. > "No default controller available" I ran into this the other day. You have to run it as root (unlike much of the other bluetooth stuff). Antony. -- Anyone that's normal doesn't really achieve much. - Mark Blair, Australian rocket engineer Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Any idea
On Monday 08 January 2018 at 23:17:39, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > when ASCII will be declared stable ? It'll be declared stable when it turns out that it is stable. If we could predict that sort of thing in advance, I think we'd be making a lot more money than we do now. > Is it a question of weeks ? months ? Do you prefer 12 of one or 3 of the other? (I'm not saying for a moment that that's any guide at all to when stability will be declared.) Antony. -- Warum können Seeräuber nicht den Umfang eines Kreises berechnen? Weil sie Pi raten... Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial
On Tuesday 09 January 2018 at 13:43:58, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package, making > changes, and building a Devuan package? There's no difference. A Devuan package is a Debian package. Any tutorial / howto / documentation for fiddling about with Debian packages will tell you what you need. Antony. -- In science, one tries to tell people in such a way as to be understood by everyone something that no-one ever knew before. In poetry, it is the exact opposite. - Paul Dirac Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?
On Tuesday 09 January 2018 at 16:52:35, Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > BACKSTORY... > > I'm the *originator* of VimOutliner, an outline processor that uses the > Vim engine. VimOutliner's top priority was authoring speed. That > priority drove most VimOutliner keyboard commands to begin with a > double comma (,,), which is both extremely easy to hit from typing home > position, and very unlikely to happen within written text. I published > VimOutliner 0.13 June 1 2001. > > Several other people used it, liked it, and improved it far beyond my > capabilities. Several Linux distros acquired VimOutliner packages. > Unfortunately, the Debian VimOutliner package manager insisted on using > double backslash (//) instead of double comma (,,) as the first two > characters of commands. The double backslash is slower, and more > important, it's a key that appears in different places on different > keyboards. Use of the double backslash represents a degradation of > VimOutliner's top priority: Authoring speed. > > I'm thinking of making the Devuan VimOutliner package use double comma. > I'd take the Debian package and replace all appropriate double > backslashes with double commas. > > Please understand, there is no SystemD dependency in the current Debian > VimOutliner package. It doesn't in any way violate any Devuan policy. > It simply uses the wrong string for the purposes of outlining. > > As mentioned, I'm the originator of VimOutliner, and as such I set the > priorities, and the top priority has consistently been authoring speed. > I can either modify the "standard" VimOutliner for my own use, or I can > make a new, double comma equipped package for Devuan. Anyone have an > opinion on this? It sounds like you have good justification for the double-comma choice, and of course as originator you can release the application however you like (although under an Open Source licence, so can anyone else modify it however they like). My suggestion, rather than modifying the Debian package and keeping the name the same, thereby leading to potential confusion between Debian and Devuan systems, would be to do the modification but adjust the package name (maybe add "comma"? or "Litt"?) so that both packages remain available in Devuan (and there aren't unexpected consequences for Debian upgraders). Since a Devuan package is a Debian package anyway, you can also make this re- packaged version available for private download for Debian users who prefer your command approach. Anyway, my 2c (although €c, not $c), Antony. -- There's a good theatrical performance about puns on in the West End. It's a play on words. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which is Free, Which is Open Source, is there any difference?
On Friday 12 January 2018 at 18:23:19, Steve Litt wrote: > Just speaking for myself, because of its deliberate obfuscations making > integration extremely difficult, I don't consider SystemD to be free > software. So what do you classify it as? Proprietary? Closed source? Commercial? What label works best for you? > [1]: This point is credible only if one believes the primary motivation > for maintaining systemd is the obfuscation of Linux to make money > with Linux training and consultation. I have that belief. Interesting. I don't agree, but it's an interesting theory. Antony. -- "The future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed yet." - William Gibson Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which is Free, Which is Open Source, is there any difference?
On Friday 12 January 2018 at 23:28:14, Rick Moen wrote: > I wrote: > > > Don't advance this argument that X isn't free software because its >^ > > source code is too difficult for a third-party fork to adopt and > > maintain in practice unless you're also prepared to consider it for > > other obvious candidates such as OpenOffice.org, X.org, etc. > > Ugh, I forgot that 'X' is overloaded in this context, and should have > said something like '$X' or '$FOO', so as not to seem to make a > confusing reference to the X Window System. Sorry about the unintended > ambiguity. Thanks :) That did get me, until I read it twice... Antony. -- I want to build a machine that will be proud of me. - Danny Hillis, creator of The Connection Machine Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Fosdem
Hi. I'm just wondering whether the Devuan project will have any presence at https://fosdem.org/2018/ to let people know about progress (or even existence)? Antony. -- 3 logicians walk into a bar. The bartender asks "Do you all want a drink?" The first logician says "I don't know." The second logician says "I don't know." The third logician says "Yes!" Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which is Free, Which is Open Source, is there any difference?
On Sunday 14 January 2018 at 12:29:09, aitor_czr wrote: > Hi Edward, > > On 14/01/18 11:09, Edward Bartolo wrote: > > > > I investigated my system to find which functions from libsystemd0 were > > required for my installation to work using nm and ldd. > > I've installed gvfs, udisks2, sane-backends and network-manager in my > system *without* libsystemd0. > > But... what's ldd? Synaptic sends me to buildd. By the way, including > the backports in jessie, i can't install mini-buildd : > > mini-buildd depends on python-daemon (<2) but 2.1.2-1~bpo8+1 is going to > be installed > > ... but it has nothing to do with libsystemd0. I only know ldd as: 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ldd_(Unix) which I think is what Edward was referring to. 2. http://ldd.lego.com/en-gb/download which runs under Max OSX or Windows, but not Linux :( Antony. -- "If I've told you once, I've told you a million times - stop exaggerating!" Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] RFC: Draft call to action for interested users to test elogind/policykit1 with various desktop environments
On Saturday 20 January 2018 at 13:17:01, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Where are these virtual machine images? Are they for Qemu? What VM images are you referring to? Which posting are you replying to? I've not seen any postings here pointing or referring to VM images... Antony. -- I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are _obviously_ no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no _obvious_ deficiencies. - C A R Hoare Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] raspberry pi 3
On Sunday 21 January 2018 at 20:32:14, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Now I get to wonder which Debian release the current Raspbian is based on, > so I can guess which Devuan release to migrate to. I thought they were all pretty well labelled? The "current" Raspbian https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/raspbian/ appears to be based on Stretch. Older versions are available from https://downloads.raspberrypi.org/raspbian/images/ or https://downloads.raspberrypi.org/raspbian_lite/images/ however you need to look into each archive directory to fidn out what the version name is. > And it's probably a good idea to have a few extra microsd cards to play > with in case things go wrong. Just dd your SD card to an HDD somewhre before trying an upgrade - then dd it back again if the outcome is "suboptimal"? Antony. -- René Descartes walks in to a bar. The barman asks him "Do you want a drink?" Descartes says "I think not," and disappears. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] raspberry pi 3
On Sunday 21 January 2018 at 22:19:55, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 08:39:18PM +0100, Antony Stone wrote: > > On Sunday 21 January 2018 at 20:32:14, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > Now I get to wonder which Debian release the current Raspbian is based > > > on, so I can guess which Devuan release to migrate to. > > > > I thought they were all pretty well labelled? > > > > The "current" Raspbian https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/raspbian/ > > appears to be based on Stretch. > > /etc/apt/sources.list shows mine is based on jessie. That's pretty > definitive. Oh, if you were trying to find out what version you have on an already-running machine, then /etc/debian_version is probably the best guide. > I think I'll cross over to Devuan first, then upgrade to ascii. That sounds good. Antony. -- "The future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed yet." - William Gibson Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Official devuan works on raspberry pi 3 B.
On Wednesday 24 January 2018 at 01:09:39, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Worked like a charm. Now I have a very minimal text console. I know > where to go from here. My wife has commandeered the HDMI television for > the evening. I'll get on with it tomorrow morning. > > Probably start with the upgrade to ascii, then start installing stuff I > need. > > I'll also be moving /usr and /var off the root partition. That is > going to stay possible in Devuan, isn't it? Where are you going to move them to on a Raspberry? Just multiple partitions on the µSD card, or do you have something more interesting in mind? Antony. -- "Linux is going to be part of the future. It's going to be like Unix was." - Peter Moore, Asia-Pacific general manager, Microsoft Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Whitelisting?
On Sunday 25 February 2018 at 23:17:40, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > Looking at the recent emails from throwaway mail addresses is it a idea > to moderate all mail except the addresses that are whitelisted? It is > not that hard to recognize someones style of writing and ditch unwanted > mail from the list. Good idea, I agree, but then again, how important is this particular list to people trying to peddle such opinions? I can't help feeling that the adminstrative effort in filtering out these undesirables is possibly greater than simply asking everyone to ignore the noise and wait until it goes away. Just remember "do not feed the trolls". Antony. -- Programming is a Dark Art, and it will always be. The programmer is fighting against the two most destructive forces in the universe: entropy and human stupidity. They're not things you can always overcome with a "methodology" or on a schedule. - Damian Conway, Perl God Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd files
On Friday 02 March 2018 at 11:26:39, KatolaZ wrote: > Most of those "alarming" files are just systemd units files, put there > by daemons/packages/utilities who "also" support systemd in a way or > another. So they are not alarming but just *totally* *harmless* if you > don't have a running systemd as PID 1, since only systemd understands > and can run them. It would be *totally* *useless* (and utterly > *stupid* IMHO) to fork, rebuild, and maintain a few more hundred > packages only because they happen to provide a systemd unit file for > those systems where systemd is used. > > libsystemd0 is used by some daemons to verify if systemd is running or > not. If it's not, libsystemd is *totally* *harmless*. > > HND > > KatolaZ > > P.S.: I guess we should consider including the last two paragraphs > above on www.devuan.org, or put it in the mailing list signature... Good idea, I think (on the website, anyway; we don't want something that long on every list posting). Antony. -- When you find yourself arguing with an idiot, you should first of all make sure that the other person isn't doing the same thing. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Mozilla is at it again - Firefox nightly sends all your hostname lookups to cloudflare
On Friday 30 March 2018 at 21:39:14, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 10:28:00AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > > Here's why I wouldn't use Palemoon if it were the last browser on earth: > > > > https://github.com/jasperla/openbsd-wip/issues/86 > > Is there another name that palemoon could be called? Of course - we could call it anything we like - they even include "default branding" in their source tree, and anyone's free to use that if they don't want to develop their own (I've not looked at it, I have no idea how appealing it is). The main question is whether anyone wants to support / encourage / depend upstream on a developer group with those attitudes to packagers. Okay, licensing and trademarks are important, but there are ways of asking people to play nicely and there are ways of setting the dogs on them at first opportunity... Antony. -- "Measuring average network latency is about as useful as measuring the mean temperature of patients in a hospital." - Stéphane Bortzmeyer Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Mozilla is at it again - Firefox nightly sends all your hostname lookups to cloudflare
On Sunday 01 April 2018 at 16:13:10, aitor_czr wrote: > On 31/03/18 20:54, Rick Moen wrote: > > > Yes, and your point is? > > My point of view, you mean? > > By downloading CentOS software, you acknowledge that you understand all > of the following: CentOS software and technical information may be > subject to the U.S. Export Administration Regulations (the “EAR”) and > other U.S. and foreign laws and may not be exported, re-exported or > transferred (a) to a prohibited destination country under the EAR or > U.S. sanctions regulations (currently Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, > Syria, and the Crimea Region of Ukraine, subject to change as posted by > the United States government) > > Where is Vladimir Karimov, one of the worst dictators of the world, > fortunately dead? I often, and certainly in this case, find obscure rhetorical questions presented as part of an answer to a request for clarification, to be more of a hindrance than a help. Firstly, I am not familiar with who Vladimir Karimov is, and a Google / Wikipedia search has not helped me to find out. Secondly, what has the current resting place of a dead dictator got to do with Open Source licensing and Red Hat copyrights? Please, when asked for clarification, try to provide a clear answer instead of simply making statements prompting even more people to wonder "what?" Thanks, Antony. -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6890 - providing 16 million IPv4 addresses for talking to yourself. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unable to Install
On Saturday 14 April 2018 at 12:46:26, Bastiaan van den Berg wrote: > in my experience, 9 out of 10 times 'unable to use USB stick for booting' > is just partition layout (partition not starting on 4MB interval or wrong > type/flags) How can that happen when you download an ISO image and put it directly on the USB stick, partition table included? It's not like you're partitioning / formatting the USB stick yourself and then writing files to it. Antony. > On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 12:34 PM, wirelessd...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On 14 Apr 2018, at 18:37, Florian Zieboll wrote: > > > > > > Am 14. April 2018 02:34:16 MESZ schrieb Vernon Geiszler: > > >> The jessie stick does boot. It just won't retieve the binary-amd64 > > >> package. The ascii stick shows no operating system. It seems the > > >> auto run is not working. I just tried it on the tower I just > > >> installed using the jessie stick and got no response. It seems the > > >> auto run is not working. > > > > > > Hallo Vernon, > > > > > > did you verify the integrity of the stick? In doubt, I'd checksum the > > > iso and create a new boot stick. > > > > > > There are also a lot cheap USB sticks around, which anonce a higher > > > capacity than they actually have. The OS does not recognize this on > > > write. > > > > > > IIRC the installer has an option to verify its integrity, too. > > > > > > Libre Grüße, > > > > > > Florian > > > > I’ve also found that too. Cheap USB sticks that work fine for file > > storage but have problems when trying to boot from the drive. > > > > Trying again with the same .iso on a better quality USB stick would work > > fine. > > > > —Tom -- My life is going completely according to plan. I do sometimes wish it had been *my* plan, though. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ubuntu w/out systemd?
On Saturday 14 April 2018 at 16:49:35, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > On 04/10/2018 02:37 PM, chillfan wrote: > > What's the TLDR on TDE? Is it less encumbered with systemd than > > KDE/Plasma? > > Sorry, I don't know what TLDR means? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tldr Antony. -- This email was created using 100% recycled electrons. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd introduces "Portable Services"
On Thursday 31 May 2018 at 18:29:24, Mark Rousell wrote: > And how far from SystemdOS are we? 2 years, IMO. Oh, and I think they'll drop the 'd' from the name. Antony. -- "Measuring average network latency is about as useful as measuring the mean temperature of patients in a hospital." - Stéphane Bortzmeyer Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan ASCII 32bit images
On Wednesday 20 June 2018 at 16:27:19, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 12:21:21 +0200, Adam wrote in message > > <20180620102121.flczbaznhl3mh...@angband.pl>: > > On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 07:09:12AM +0200, aitor_czr wrote: > > > El 20/06/18 a las 02:16, Ozi Traveller escribió: > > > > Are the 32bit images 586 or 686? > > > > > > > > I think the Jessie images were 586. > > > > > > linux-4.9.x is built in 686 and 686-pae > > > > And more importantly, userland packages are built using 686 > > instructions. Replacing or using an old kernel is trivial, rebuilding > > the world is not. > > ..i386, i486 or i586 kernels can now chew i686 userland? > I could believe it can build them from source. No, I think Adam's point was that if you have a 686 kernel on a 386 machine, replacing it for a 386 kernel is easy (relatively speaking), but if you have the complete system binaries and libraries built for 686 on a 386 machine, replacing that lot is basically a re-install. > ..do we have "world rebuilder" software or scripts that can find > "wrong arch userland", fetch its source package, "rebuild this > part of the world" and install it, and optionally upload it to > "a community upload mirror site"? Might help speed up things... I think if anyone runs into the problem that they've installed a 686 binary or library onto a 386 machine, they'll have installed hundreds, so the machine is unlikely to be able to claw its own way out of the hole. Better to try having a check in the installer to say "the architecture you selected will not run on this hardware - do yoou really want to continue?" (which you might do, for example, if you're installing a system onto a disk which is going to go into another machine...) Antony. -- She did not swoon, but she did get a look on her face that said 'This conversation is over', which Jack took as a sign he was going in the right direction. - Neal Stephenson, Quicksilver Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A Devuan kernel?
On Saturday 07 July 2018 at 14:03:33, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On Fri, 6 Jul 2018 at 10:52:20 -0700 Jimmy Johnson wrote: > > > Good sources Who / where? > > tell me we need our own kernel, > > Why? What's wrong with the available ones? > > > Alessandro Antony. -- "Measuring average network latency is about as useful as measuring the mean temperature of patients in a hospital." - Stéphane Bortzmeyer Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A Devuan kernel?
On Monday 09 July 2018 at 00:52:48, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > I don't think Linus is trying to hide anything, he just can't talk about > a backdoor and will deny a backdoor if you ask him about one. If there is a backdoor, and he denies it, then he's hiding something. If he's not hiding anything, and he denies there's a backdoor, then there isn't one. Please take your pick of logic. > Something I haven't done but maybe a kernel source package can be opened > to expose what is in there? http://kernel.org > Something way over my head. > Anybody friends with Klaus Knopper? Or has other sources for help? > Maybe someone from Puppy Linux? I think you're confusing the Linux kernel with GNU/Linux distributions. You might as well start looking at Android, if the Linux kernel is what's bothering you. Antony. -- I have an excellent memory. I can't think of a single thing I've forgotten. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A Devuan kernel?
On Monday 09 July 2018 at 09:53:06, KatolaZ wrote: > On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 01:17:58AM +0200, Antony Stone wrote: > > [cut] > > > > Something way over my head. > > > Anybody friends with Klaus Knopper? Or has other sources for help? > > > Maybe someone from Puppy Linux? > > > > I think you're confusing the Linux kernel with GNU/Linux distributions. > > > > You might as well start looking at Android, if the Linux kernel is what's > > bothering you. > > Well, actually android has always used a Linux kernel... That was my point. Why look at Puppy Linux in particular, if you're bothered about backdoors in the kernel? The same backdoor would be in Android, so it's just as worth while to look there. Antony. -- "If I've told you once, I've told you a million times - stop exaggerating!" Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A Devuan kernel?
On Monday 09 July 2018 at 12:42:40, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > On 07/09/2018 03:16 AM, KatolaZ wrote: > > > > There are lots of people out there who understand a lot more about the > > Linux kernel than many of us here. I simply decided to trust them, > > collectively, because I know that nobody can buy all of them. > > Well some of those kernel experts are saying you need to check your > kernel. It is just as plausible that these kernel experts are deliberately spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt with no substance whatsoever. Any responsible person who says "you need to check your kernel; there may be a backdoor (or two) in it" would point at what they found to back up their claim. Even if this results in said backdoor being promptly removed, only for another one to be lurking elsewhere unannounced, it's an improvement in the security of the code, and everyone knows that the person was speaking truthfully. Anyone who claims to know there are backdoors but doesn't say why they believe this, what the backdoors are, or where to find further information about them, is only as bad as a "security researcher" who claims to have identified a vulnerability in code (which I regard as different from a backdoor because vulnerabilities are accidental, backdoors are deliberate) but refuses to provide responsible disclosure to the vendor / developer responsible for that code and thereby leaves it open to (further) exploitation. > Also how you respond to this thread speaks volumes. This, of course, is also true about you. Antony. -- "It would appear we have reached the limits of what it is possible to achieve with computer technology, although one should be careful with such statements; they tend to sound pretty silly in five years." - John von Neumann (1949) Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A Devuan kernel?
On Monday 09 July 2018 at 13:02:23, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > what I know is out there for all to read. So give us some URLs to what you have already found. Or are you just trying to waste our time? Antony. -- The first fifty percent of an engineering project takes ninety percent of the time, and the remaining fifty percent takes another ninety percent of the time. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A Devuan kernel?
On Monday 09 July 2018 at 12:53:01, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > On 07/09/2018 03:22 AM, KatolaZ wrote: > > > > I guess we need to calm down a bit here? Martin expressed his > > view. You Jimmy expressed yours, and nobody asked you to get/stay out > > of the way. I presume you should give to the opinions of others the > > same treatment you expect for yours, as a baseline. Or at least expect > > your opinions to be treated with the same respect with which you treat > > those of others... > > You've been showing contempt and disrespect for me since my first post > in this group, never helpful. I can find no evidence of that whatsoever, reading back over your threads from April 10th, April 22nd and June 13th - which are the only threads I see started by you on this list. > Why do you want to stand in the way of people in this group looking for > malware in this distro? KatolaZ is not standing in the way of people looking for malware. He is asking for anyone to claims to have found evidence of it to show that. I agree with him. Antony. -- Anyone that's normal doesn't really achieve much. - Mark Blair, Australian rocket engineer Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Troll Alert Re: A Devuan kernel?
On Monday 09 July 2018 at 13:13:55, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > I was told this group has enemies, Well, at least we've now clearly identified one of them. > bye, bye. Thank $deity for that. Antony. -- Pavlov is in the pub enjoying a pint. The barman rings for last orders, and Pavlov jumps up exclaiming "Damn! I forgot to feed the dog!" Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A Devuan kernel?
On Monday 09 July 2018 at 16:10:02, Alessandro Selli wrote: > Actually the Linux kernel is the most scrutinized and secure piece of > software that's around. Interesting claim. Citation/s? Antony. -- Don't procrastinate - put it off until tomorrow. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] 1,000(?) eyes security Re: A Devuan kernel?
On Monday 09 July 2018 at 22:10:03, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 01:12:58AM +1000, terryc wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:48:34 +0200 Alessandro Selli wrote: > > > "Since the beginning of the git era (the 2.6.11 release in 2005), a > > > total of 15,637 developers have contributed to the Linux kernel; > > > those developers worked for a minimum of 1,513 companies." > > > > > > And this lists only those developers and companies who contributed > > > to the official code; it does not list security auditors or > > > developers/companies who work on custom versions of the kernel. > > > > The statement that started the claim was first made by ESR. > > The rebuttal is all the security holes that have been found in the code > > in various applications through out the Linux Epoch. > > I'm not at all convince that the security holes constitute a rebuttal. > Methings they could equally be evidence that having all those eyes on > the kernel source code is weeding out such security holes. After all, > do we know how many security holes are detected by no one reading kernel > code? I would look to Microsoft Windows for this. Quite a number of security holes have been discovered in versions of MS Windows over the years, and I'm pretty certain that the vast majority were discovered by people with no access to the source code. It's often commented that closed-source software has more bugs & vulnerabilities in it because the developers think "no-one's going to see this, so no-one's going to find the bugs" whereas open source developers know that anyone can see the mistakes they make, so they pay more attention to not making them. Whether that's true or not is hard to determine, but for me the mere discovery of so many problems in MS Windows by people with no access to the source code tells me that bugs and security holes will be found, given sufficient incentive (eg: the overwhelming number of Windows PCs on the planet), whether the source is open or not. Thus (coming back to the original argument) I find it hard to believe that backdoors and similar deliberate insertions of suspicious code wouldn't have been found by people responsible enough to publicise what they discover, given that it's clearly possible to do, either with access to the source code or without. Antony. -- "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." - Douglas Adams Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] 1,000(?) eyes security Re: A Devuan kernel?
On Monday 09 July 2018 at 22:53:19, Fungal-net wrote: > On July 9, 2018 11:35 PM, Antony Stone wrote: > > > > > > Quite a number of security holes have been discovered in versions of MS > > Windows over the years, and I'm pretty certain that the vast majority > > were discovered by people with no access to the source code... > I don't think this mode of thinking helps, plenty of security holes are > discovered in linux and unix-derivatives daily and people have been > looking through this code for years, never realizing a weakness can be > utilized by "evil doers" to manipulate this hole. Alpine is as simple and > as security concerned as any linux, and someone proved recently how > vulnerable they are. Whether ms-win is better or worse is no reason to > relax about it. I wasn't trying to compare or comment on whether Linux or Windows is better or worse from a security perspective. I was just using the examples of Linux (open source, low desktop usage, fairly high server usage) versus Windows (closed source, very high desktop usage, lower server usage) to point out that vulnerabilities can be found whether the source code is available or not. Give bad people enough machines to benefit from finding a weakness in, and they'll put in the effort to find those weaknesses even without access to the code the machines are running. > But here we have not a bug, not a vulnerability, but a published addition > to the code called speck (and it cousin coming soon). I don't think > microsoft had included it yet. It is Linus vanguardism. Hm, Speck is German for bacon. I like bacon. > No one dare write a bug report about speck, it is perfect I tell ya! It is > in your libre kernel. Thanks for the tip :) Antony. -- 90% of networking problems are routing problems. 9 of the remaining 10% are routing problems in the other direction. The remaining 1% might be something else, but check the routing anyway. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Unswapping interface namesRe: (WAS: what has gone wrong with networking in ascii?
On Sunday 15 July 2018 at 22:03:23, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I got all local services, includig wifi, to work. > > The last holdout seems to have been /etc/ppp/peers/dsl-provider > > It would have been fouond with one more *: /etc/*/*/* > If this message gets out, it worked. Well done :) Antony. -- A few words to be cautious of between American and English: - momentarily - suspenders - chips - pants - jelly - pavement - vest - pint (and gallon) - pissed Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A Devuan kernel?
On Tuesday 17 July 2018 at 19:20:08, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2018-07-17 12:04, spiralofhope wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 01:52:53 +0200 Alessandro Selli wrote: > > > On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 at 15:16:27 -0400 Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > > > Jimmy, you've just won a free procmail trip to /dev/null on my > > > > computer. > > > > > > > Isn't this a stylish way to put it? :-) > > > > aka "plonk". > > > > For anyone young: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk_%28Usenet%29 > > > > ___ > > FYI . . . conclusions based on age do not fly well here. ;) Maybe, in place of "young" above, try "inexperienced in the ways of the Internet" :) ? Old ideas are not _always_ the best, but they shouldn't be dismissed simply *because* they are old... Antony. -- It is also possible that putting the birds in a laboratory setting inadvertently renders them relatively incompetent. - Daniel C Dennett Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I need your help or another developer's help with the project devuan with the children
On Sunday 22 July 2018 at 17:17:43, wirelessd...@gmail.com wrote: > > On 22 Jul 2018, at 23:17, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > Doesn't Raspberry pi normally boot from the microSD card it uses for its > > main file system? USB sticks are generally cheaper for the same capacity, and some people think they're more reliable (I don't have a personal opinion). Raspberry Pi 3 B can indeed boot from USB, and the Pi 3 B+ can also do PoE, and network boot (although I doubt either is a help for this project). > > Thus all you need to do is make 50 copies of one SD card and stick them > > into the microSD card slots of the pi's. > > > > So once you manage to make one bootable image, you won't need to make an > > installers. You'll just need a machine to copy microsd cards. > > > > I run my Raspberry pi with a stock microSD card image from Devuan. > > You should be able to do the same, and after booting, install or > > uninstall packages as desired. THen replicate the resulting card 50 > > times for your 50 mchines. > > If you’re running sshd on this you would want to regenerate the server keys > for each individual installation? a) not necessarily - there's no reason server keys need to be unique, especially in a private network space b) the simplest solution if you want unique keys would simply be to delete the keys from /etc/ssh in the image before replicating it - then they will get automatically created when each card is started for the first time Antony. -- "If I've told you once, I've told you a million times - stop exaggerating!" Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] the azeri project is underway. education for programming children with devuan
On Wednesday 25 July 2018 at 23:06:14, Carl Fink wrote: > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 09:15:39PM +0200, Basati wrote: > > > I've already named it: azeri (in Basque it means fox, children will need > > the skills of a fox for this) > > "Azeri" means "A Turkic people of Central Asia, native to Azerbaijan, or > their language. Synonymous with Azerbaijani." At least, that's the common > meaning for speakers of English. I am native English, and my opinion on this is "what?" If someone started talking to me about "Azeri" or "Azeris", I would have no clue what they were talking about. If they talk to me about "Azerbaijanis", I would know who/what they meant, but I might still wonder why they wanted to talk to me about them. I really do not think "Azeri" is "common" for speakers of English. Antony. -- Users don't know what they want until they see what they get. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linux Without systemd: Why You Should Use Devuan, the Debian Fork
On Thursday 26 July 2018 at 17:16:56, Эльбрус Кондратьев wrote: > It's called 'herd behavior'. Someone told them that systemd constituted > 'the way to go'. Nevermind if that way results irrational. Oh well, at least it wasn't Hurd behaviour, otherwise we wouldn't have an Operating System at all... Antony. > On Thu, 2018-07-26 at 10:49 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 07:13:52 -0400 > > > > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > I found this article online. > > > > > > https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/debian-without-systemd-devuan/ > > > > I could have swapped the phrase "s6 plus s6-rc" for "systemd" and that > > entire video would have been true except the part that says if you're > > using Enterprise Linux, you're stuck with systemd. > > > > Can I ask all of you something? How do people, who call themselves > > developers, joyfully embrace a false choice like systemd vs sysvinit? > > Do these same "developers" neglect to put in error handling for a bad > > value, because the program earlier supposedly set the variable to one > > of two correct values? > > > > I found this video particularly obnoxious. > > > > SteveT -- I own three Windows books, published by O'Reilly. They are "Windows Annoyances", "Office 97 Annoyances" and "Windows 98 Annoyances". That pretty much sums it up for me. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] jessie MySQL -> ascii MariaDB
On Monday 30 July 2018 at 13:45:26, Alexander Bochmann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I recently updated an old (former) Debian system from Devuan
> jessie to ascii.
>
> As it turns out, its MySQL database still had a root password
> in the (very) old format, which isn't accepted by MariaDB. The
> upgrade routine doesn't handle that problem, leading to followup
> errors.
I believe the same happens on Debian Jessie -> Stretch.
> I had to manually start MariaDB with --skip-grant-tables,
> update mysql.user with a root password using the new hash format,
> and then complete the dist-upgrade.
>
> > update mysql.user set Password = password('admin_pw') where User =
> > 'root' and Host = 'localhost'; flush privileges;
>
> No other major problems on a system with over 1500 installed
> packages (ok, insserv reenabled dependency based boot without
> asking, but that unexpectedly didn't break anything).
>
> Good work on that release!
I'm impressed too :)
Antony.
--
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Psychotics live in them;
Psychiatrists collect the rent.
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Re: [DNG] running script on eudev event
On Sunday 05 August 2018 at 16:29:05, Antonio Trkdz.tab wrote:
> I created the following rule as /etc/udev/rules.d/90-usb-keyboard.rules:
> ATTRS{idVendor}=="", ATTRS{idProduct}=="", ACTION=="add",
> RUN+="/full/path_to/restore_space_as_modifier.sh"
> and reloaded eudev (I am on ASCII).
> it is not working, nothing happens, not even a simple echo something to a
> file, the only command I have got working is touching a file with
> 'RUN+="/usr/bin/touch path_to/filename"
That last example proves you can get a command to be run, so maybe the problem
is with pointing to a text file which happens to contain "#!/bin/bash" as the
first line...
How about "RUN+="/bin/bash -c /full/path_to/restore_space_as_modifier.sh"?
Maybe that will run bash and pass it the script to tell it what to do?
Antony.
--
3 logicians walk into a bar. The bartender asks "Do you all want a drink?"
The first logician says "I don't know."
The second logician says "I don't know."
The third logician says "Yes!"
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Re: [DNG] running script on eudev event
On Sunday 05 August 2018 at 20:24:30, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> On 05/08/2018 at 16:29, Antonio Trkdz.tab wrote:
> > Dear All,
> >
> > I am struggling to understand how to run a script automatically upon
> > plugging a USB keyboard.
> > I know this issue is not directly related to Devuan, but I will
> > certainly appreciate a little help.
> >
> > I created the following rule as /etc/udev/rules.d/90-usb-keyboard.rules:
> > ATTRS{idVendor}=="", ATTRS{idProduct}=="", ACTION=="add",
> > RUN+="/full/path_to/restore_space_as_modifier.sh"
> > and reloaded eudev (I am on ASCII).
> >
> > The script essentially has to do this:
> >
> > #!/bin/bash
> > /usr/bin/xmodmap -e "keycode 65=Super_L"
> > /usr/bin/xmodmap -e "keycode any=space"
> > /usr/bin/pkill xcape
> > /usr/bin/xcape -e "Super_L=space"
>
> I think the problem lies in the x* from the commands: they are X11
> commands, i.e. they interact with a running Xorg. But, as they are run
> by udevd, i.e. by a system daemon, they do not have the DISPLAY variable
> initialized and do not have the appropriate session Xauthority cookies
> set. Thus they fail.
That sounds plausible, but doesn't explain:
> > it is not working, nothing happens, not even a simple echo something to a
> > file, the only command I have got working is touching a file with
> > 'RUN+="/usr/bin/touch path_to/filename"
Antony.
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Re: [DNG] running script on eudev event
On Monday 06 August 2018 at 11:42:58, aitor_czr wrote: > El 06/08/18 a las 10:24, aitor_czr escribió: > > |ACTION=="add", RUN+="/bin/sh -c 'echo "message" >> log_file| > || > ||ACTION=="add", RUN+="/bin/sh -c 'echo "message" >> log_file |'" > > The line was incomplete :) I am very confused by the pipe symbols there. Antony. -- What do you get when you cross a joke with a rhetorical question? Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Mozilla and cloudflare to hijack all your DNS requests - for your own good of course
On Tuesday 07 August 2018 at 22:27:25, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting taii...@gmx.com (taii...@gmx.com): > > Cloudflare is such an incredibly obvious intelligence agency ploy to > > gather data but no one talks about this. > > > > https://yro.slashdot.org/story/18/08/05/2353249/security-researchers-expr > > ess-concerns-over-mozillas-new-dns-resolution-for-firefox > > Most highly rated comment: > > I run my own local recursive nameservers even on my portable > devices. Totally not interested in using anyone's resolvers but my own. Indeed. I do wonder what provision Mozilla have made (or have they?) for intranet servers, where the local DNS server is the *only* machine capable of resolving certain hostnames. Antony. -- "Once you have a panic, things tend to become rather undefined." - murble Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Git and git.devuan.org - solved
On Thursday 16 August 2018 at 22:04:18, Rowland Penny wrote: > On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 22:56:29 +0300 Lars Noodén wrote: > > On 08/16/2018 09:04 PM, Stefan Krusche wrote: > > > > The staging was the part I missed. It wasn't clear from the > > "git-commit" manual page at all that "git-add" is not about adding new > > files but queuing existing but modified files for upload. The -a with > > "commit" can skip that. > > > > git clone GITURL > > vi README.md > > git commit -a > > git push > > > > Thanks. All set. > > One thing is worrying me about this, can anybody push a change, even if > it is a malicious one ? Anybody can push a change, yes, but only to their *own* account. That is why you later need to make a *pull* request to the project developer/s to get them to fetch your code into their project and see what they think of it. Antony. -- Success is a lousy teacher. It seduces smart people into thinking they can't lose. - William H Gates III Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan on Panasonic FZ-G1
On Tuesday 21 August 2018 at 22:46:14, Bruce Perens wrote: > I put Devuan Which version? > on my usual travel laptop Do, or did, you have any other O/S installed on it? If so, what? > a Panasonic FZ-G1 What's the sound chip for one of those? > Everything works but the sound. Pulseaudio is sending to the sound > interface, How do you know? Show us some diagnostic output? > and nothing comes out of the speaker. Any clues? 1. If you have alsamixer installed, see if anything is muted. 2. If you have another O/S installed, can that produce sound, and if you have to adjust something to get it to produce sound, does it then work next time you boot Devuan? 2a. If you don't have another O/S installed, can you try Ubuntu or similar from a USB stick? 3. Have you got keyboard buttons (probably in combination with some "Fn" key) for un/mute and volume up/down? If yes, what happens if you try those? 4. Have you tried plugging speakers or headphones into the headset socket to see if that produces sound? 5. Do you have an HDMI monitor with speakers which you can try plugging into the HDMI port to see if sound comes out there? My guess is that either something is muted, or the default output is going over HDMI. Antony. -- Software development can be quick, high quality, or low cost. The customer gets to pick any two out of three. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Debian blocks latest Intel microcode update
On Wednesday 22 August 2018 at 23:32:28, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Don Wright - 22.08.18, 21:56: > > El Reg has [1]published a disagreement between a Debian maintainer and > > Intel over changes to license terms in the latest CPU microcode > > updates. The added terms (see comments) appear to attach liability to > > both Debian and mirror sites if the end user violates certain new > > restrictions regarding benchmarking. Debian has chosen not to play. > > > > [1] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/08/21/intel_cpu_patch_licence/ > > Rant opened: > > /me prays for the end of proprietary CPUs. > Speed over quality. – Stop it already. > > Rant closed. Personally, I agree with you, but just me and you as individual persons isn't going to make any difference. Nor is the rest of the membership of this mailing list, just in case everyone else agrees with us too. Intel will only change their practices when the *majority* of their customers decide that "enough is enough", but unfortunately: 1) Intel sell very very few CPUs to individuals who are able to express their personal preferences and can choose to buy other CPUs instead 2) the big-name laptop and server manufacturers who *do* buy the majority of Intel's CPUs don't get the slightest whiff of any bad publicity to alert the general public to the dangers lurking inside the chips they're passing on inside their shiny new products 3) the vast majority of computer users either don't buy their own computers (corporate employees) and/or don't have a clue about microcode vulnerabilities (I'd suggest that's a five nines percentage of computer users in general), and therefore aren't going to boycott Intel's (or anyone else's) closed designs because they simply don't know what the question is. So, in summary: - you make a good point - as many people as you can possibly contact might well agree with you - it won't make the slightest difference This disappoints me, but as a realist, I try to accept the obstacles in the path to (my own and other people's) enlightenment, and I believe that banging one's head against a brick wall is sooner or later bad for the health :( Antony. -- Users don't know what they want until they see what they get. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
