Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
Anno domini 2019 Mon, 11 Mar 19:16:13 +0100 Didier Kryn scripsit: > First list of applications reading machine-id. > > /usr/sbin/console-kit-daemon > /usr/bin/dbus-launch > /usr/local/waterfox/waterfox You can add "chromium". > > None of Palemoon, Firefox-ESR or Surf reads machine-id on my ASCII > laptop. I compiled Palemoon on Jessie maybe two years ago, and I think I > compiled Waterfox more recently on ASCII. > > Didier > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
Anno domini 2019 Mon, 11 Mar 19:16:13 +0100 Didier Kryn scripsit: > First list of applications reading machine-id. > > /usr/sbin/console-kit-daemon > /usr/bin/dbus-launch > /usr/local/waterfox/waterfox > > None of Palemoon, Firefox-ESR or Surf reads machine-id on my ASCII > laptop. I compiled Palemoon on Jessie maybe two years ago, and I think I > compiled Waterfox more recently on ASCII. "surf" on beowuld does use /var/lib/dbus/machine-id: (surf:4280): IBUS-WARNING **: 08:16:24.059: Unable to load /var/lib/dbus/machine-id: Datei »/var/lib/dbus/machine-id« konnte nicht geöffnet werden: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden > > Didier > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 08:17:59AM +0100, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > Anno domini 2019 Mon, 11 Mar 19:16:13 +0100 > Didier Kryn scripsit: > > First list of applications reading machine-id. > > > > /usr/sbin/console-kit-daemon > > /usr/bin/dbus-launch > > /usr/local/waterfox/waterfox > > > > None of Palemoon, Firefox-ESR or Surf reads machine-id on my ASCII > > laptop. I compiled Palemoon on Jessie maybe two years ago, and I think I > > compiled Waterfox more recently on ASCII. > > "surf" on beowuld does use /var/lib/dbus/machine-id: > > (surf:4280): IBUS-WARNING **: 08:16:24.059: Unable to load > /var/lib/dbus/machine-id: Datei »/var/lib/dbus/machine-id« konnte nicht > geöffnet werden: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden > Again, this is pretty pointless: just look for reverse-deps on libdbus and you'll find the answers you are looking for. /var/lib/dbus/machine-id is read by anyting that opens a dbus channel and/or sends/receives a message through dbus. It is not read by the process itself, rather by libdbus (please have a look at dbus' code). My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
Le 11/03/2019 à 19:33, KatolaZ a écrit : guys, anything using dbus will most probably (indirectly) access /var/lib/dbus/machine-id at some point in time, since that file is read when attempting to send a message via dbus. It's most certainly as simple as that. The question is why the hell do a web browser need to attach to Dbus? This question is pure rant because I won't be satisfied by any answer. On the strategy: as long all Debian installs have the same machine-id, the number is /unique/, but in the sense that it is the /same for all/, which fits well with its /useless/ nature and which is the best for anonymity. If a host changes its machine-id all the time, first it becomes volatile but /unique/ in the sense that /nobody has the same/, second, this behaviour will be detected and might tag the host as Dbus-hostile. It may also cause a disfunctionning in Dbus, which I don't know if it is a good thing or not. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
Didier Kryn - 12.03.19, 09:48: > Le 11/03/2019 à 19:33, KatolaZ a écrit : > > guys, anything using dbus will most probably (indirectly) access > > /var/lib/dbus/machine-id at some point in time, since that file is > > read when attempting to send a message via dbus. > > It's most certainly as simple as that. > > The question is why the hell do a web browser need to attach to > Dbus? This question is pure rant because I won't be satisfied by any > answer. For me it would be more important to see what DBUS, aka libdbus, is actually doing with the machine id. Thus I second the recommendation of KatolaZ to look at its source code. -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 12:12:32PM +, Mark Hindley wrote: > > $ w > > 01:55:37 up 4 min, 1 user, load average: 0.21, 0.19, 0.09 > > USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT > > user :0.0 :0.0 01:51 ?xdm? 47.32s 0.24s > > x-session-manager Didier, Having looked at this some more, whilst I agree that the w output of ?xdm? is ugly, I think it is correct. You can only get the correct idle time for X with xprintidle. The value derived from utmp can never be correct. Mark ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 09:48:11AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 11/03/2019 à 19:33, KatolaZ a écrit : > > guys, anything using dbus will most probably (indirectly) access > > /var/lib/dbus/machine-id at some point in time, since that file is > > read when attempting to send a message via dbus. > > It's most certainly as simple as that. > > The question is why the hell do a web browser need to attach to Dbus? > This question is pure rant because I won't be satisfied by any answer. In order to contact your preferred DE's interface to select the printer when you hit CTRL+P, just to make one example out of several dozens? Or to unlock the keyring using your DE's keyring manager? We can only fear what we don't understand. I know it should seem obvious today, but interaction among different applications requires Inter-Process Communication (IPC). This is done in the GNOME-world throgh CORBA, and in the KDE-world throug DCOP (and in the Micro$oft world through DCOM). The proposal of freedesktop was to have a unified interface for that. The result is called dbus, and it's not that much different in spirit and functioning from either CORBA or DCOP or DCOM (also CORBA needs the equivalent of machine-id for most operations, just to mention one similarity). In other words, if you use a "modern" DE, you have been using such complicated IPC mechanisms for the best part of the last 20+ years. It's not new. It has been there for ages. Maybe it was called differently, but it had basically the same ugly face for programmers, and the same "nice" behaviour from the user perspective. I don't particularly like dbus, as I don't particularly like CORBA or DCOP (I have actually written a relatively large piece of software based on CORBA in the past, but I have no large experience of DCOP TBH). IMHO, IPC does not need to be that complicated, if programmers know their way around. On top of that, dbus seems to be much slower than either CORBA or DCOP, so it's not even a technological improvement. It's the same shit we have been dealing with for the last 20 years. We can surely live happy without such complicated IPC frameworks, and I have personally done that for many years now. But seriously, it looks to me like we are still shooting the wrong bird here. If you don't trust CORBA/DCOP/dbus, just remove any GNOME/KDE/whatever component from your system. It's possible. Then, you won't have any "desktop integration" which seems to be a "must" for many users today, but I can assure that life goes on either way. We can only fear what we don't understand. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 09:59:04AM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Didier Kryn - 12.03.19, 09:48: > > Le 11/03/2019 à 19:33, KatolaZ a écrit : > > > guys, anything using dbus will most probably (indirectly) access > > > /var/lib/dbus/machine-id at some point in time, since that file is > > > read when attempting to send a message via dbus. > > > > It's most certainly as simple as that. > > > > The question is why the hell do a web browser need to attach to > > Dbus? This question is pure rant because I won't be satisfied by any > > answer. > > For me it would be more important to see what DBUS, aka libdbus, is > actually doing with the machine id. > > Thus I second the recommendation of KatolaZ to look at its source code. > Martin, AFAIU it's used just to make sure that a dbus call originates from a process on the same machine of the receiver. But, please, audit the code if you have time for that, and report any misbehaving. We have also implemented a fix in dbus that re-generates /var/lib/dbus/machine-id at each reboot (despite I think it's not necessary). I think that any leak in dbus would have been found by now (dbus has been around for several years), but I might be proven wrong. The code is free software, available and distributed under GNU GPL2+ (and also under Academic Free License 2.1). Literally anybody can read it. But please, let's stop shooting in the dark. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
Hi, On 12/3/19 9:25, KatolaZ wrote: Again, this is pretty pointless: just look for reverse-deps on libdbus and you'll find the answers you are looking for. /var/lib/dbus/machine-id is read by anyting that opens a dbus channel and/or sends/receives a message through dbus. It is not read by the process itself, rather by libdbus (please have a look at dbus' code). My2Cents KatolaZ The next systemd... Recently i packaged wpa removing its dependency on libdbus, but i did it for lubuntu (merely a trial) because i was testing the live-sdk on it; so, this packaging is missing in the repository of gnuinos. Most of the network managers depend strongly on dbus, such as conman, wicd, etc. Cheers, Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] dbus [was: Re: logging uses of machine-id]
On Tuesday 12 March 2019 at 13:07:08, aitor_czr wrote: > Hi, > > On 12/3/19 9:25, KatolaZ wrote: > > Again, this is pretty pointless: just look for reverse-deps on libdbus > > and you'll find the answers you are looking for. > > > > /var/lib/dbus/machine-id is read by anyting that opens a dbus channel > > and/or sends/receives a message through dbus. It is not read by the > > process itself, rather by libdbus (please have a look at dbus' code). > > The next systemd... If that's a serious comment, what is evil/wrong with (lib)dbus? I ask because I think if we can define what we specifically disagree with about systemd and dbus (and anything else which might qualify), this would be a powerful message to put on the Devuan web page to explain precisely why it exists and why people should consider migrating to it. If we can identify things other than systemd which we consider to be bad for people (provided there's a common justification for why they're bad) I think this is far better than just saying "we don't like systemd" as a specific element of modern Linux distros. > Recently i packaged wpa removing its dependency on libdbus, but i did it for > lubuntu (merely a trial) because i was testing the live-sdk on it; so, this > packaging is missing in the repository of gnuinos. Most of the network > managers depend strongly on dbus, such as conman, wicd, etc. That doesn't stop us from examining "what does it do and why do these things need it" and deciding whether to come up with an alternative which works in a way we approve of. The starting point, though, is to work out "what do we not approve of in the way this thing does its job?" Antony. -- Normal people think "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Engineers think "If it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet". Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] dbus [was: Re: logging uses of machine-id]
Hi Anthony, On 12/3/19 13:35, Antony Stone wrote: If that's a serious comment, what is evil/wrong with (lib)dbus? One of the premises of the devuan project was (i thought): no more wraps, please. Time to eat :) Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] dbus [was: Re: logging uses of machine-id]
On Tuesday 12 March 2019 at 13:41:44, aitor_czr wrote: > Hi Anthony, > > On 12/3/19 13:35, Antony Stone wrote: > > If that's a serious comment, what is evil/wrong with (lib)dbus? > > One of the premises of the devuan project was (i thought): no more > wraps, please. Sorry, I don't understand what you meant there. Antony. > Time to eat :) > > Aitor. -- You can spend the whole of your life trying to be popular, but at the end of the day the size of the crowd at your funeral will be largely dictated by the weather. - Frank Skinner Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] dbus [was: Re: logging uses of machine-id]
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 01:41:44PM +0100, aitor_czr wrote: > Hi Anthony, > > On 12/3/19 13:35, Antony Stone wrote: > > If that's a serious comment, what is evil/wrong with (lib)dbus? > > One of the premises of the devuan project was (i thought): no more wraps, > please. > I would agree wholeheartedly, aitor, and would definitely be in favour of removing from Devuan whetever piece of software uses an unneeded "wrap". This would include most of GNOME and GTK applications, most of KDE and Qt-related stuff, most of the browsers, most of the desktop goodies, the whole concept of session management, and much much more. This will result in a pretty lean distro, indeed. Only, I doubt that many in this list and outside would like the resulting "distribution" at all. I have seen endless discussions here and in the forum about the borders of windows in the standard ASCII theme having "the wrong thickness", and endless rants about "gksu not being available any more! oh my gosh how could we survive?!?". I have already been living without most of that "wrap stuff" for many years, but I have the impression that most users would not like to cope with the kind of "desktop experience" --so to speak-- that would result from such a massive removal and purification. Nevertheless, the simple removal of anything that has an unneded "wrap" would definitely make the effort of Devuan development much easier, although probably almost pointless. The other possibility is to patch any software that requires dbus/CORBA/DCOP and any other "wrap", by providing an alternative (probably, just yet-another-system-bus), testing the patches, and maintaining them. In order to do that we need people able to concretely help and do things and make their hands dirty with actual coding. We need hackers. We need soldiers. Generals and philosophers who perfectly know what to do but disappear as soon as "The Right Thing (TM)" needs to be done are close to useless for that quest. "This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill--the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill--you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes." My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Request for testing of elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
Hello all, We have just packaged a new upstream version of elogind (241.1) for Devuan. The packages have just hit ceres and beowulf and should be in mirrors within an hour. The Big News in this release is that, thanks to the persistence of CenturionDan and the excellent response of Sven upstream, libelogind0 is now ABI compatible with libsystemd0. This allows libelogind0 to replace libsystemd0 completely without requiring binary recompilation. I have tried basic combinations of slim/lightdm with mate/cinnamon/xfce4 on a VM without any problems. But more testing is required. Please do try all of the desktoppy things and report any regressions. Thanks for your help and have fun! Mark ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 02:10:10PM +, Mark Hindley wrote: > Hello all, > > We have just packaged a new upstream version of elogind (241.1) for Devuan. > The > packages have just hit ceres and beowulf and should be in mirrors within an > hour. > > The Big News in this release is that, thanks to the persistence of > CenturionDan > and the excellent response of Sven upstream, libelogind0 is now ABI compatible > with libsystemd0. This allows libelogind0 to replace libsystemd0 completely > without requiring binary recompilation. > > I have tried basic combinations of slim/lightdm with mate/cinnamon/xfce4 on a > VM > without any problems. But more testing is required. Please do try all of the > desktoppy things and report any regressions. > > Thanks for your help and have fun! > > Mark Dear Mark, thanks a lot for your effort with elogind and libelogind0: it's very much appreciated. As usual, let's install this stuff as widely as possible, and please use the BTS to report bugs and issues. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] dbus [was: Re: logging uses of machine-id]
Hi, On 12/3/19 13:45, Antony Stone wrote: On Tuesday 12 March 2019 at 13:41:44, aitor_czr wrote: Hi Anthony, On 12/3/19 13:35, Antony Stone wrote: If that's a serious comment, what is evil/wrong with (lib)dbus? One of the premises of the devuan project was (i thought): no more wraps, please. Sorry, I don't understand what you meant there. Antony. Time to eat:) Aitor. Oh, it would give a lot to talk about, because i like git-buildpacakge, a wrap for dpkg-buildpackage Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
dear Didier, thanks for this quick C monitoring tool using the inotify API I think this may be useful also for /etc/machine-id - which may be a different ID from dbus I believe? meanwhile an update on my adventures using chromium on Beowulf: it basically stopped working since I overwrote my machine-id with "d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3" because, I believe, is not the machine-id that chromium registered for the sessions of my profile / users logged into Google. I start then understanding at least why chromium reads this file: to associate the device with the logged in profile. I believe this is really nasty especially when other applications start accessing this file and can track the ID across different programs, domains, namespaces. For instance a google account can be traced by other applications that are not from google itself. I believe this is a violation of the GDPR at least in Europe and will consult the good contacts I have among policy experts in the field. ciao -- Denis "Jaromil" Roio https://Dyne.org think &do tank Ph.D, CTO & co-foundersoftware to empower communities ✉ Haparandadam 7-A1, 1013AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands ✩ Profile and publications: https://jaromil.dyne.org 𝄞 crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره ⚷ 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
On 3/12/19 4:10 PM, Mark Hindley wrote: > This allows libelogind0 to replace libsystemd0 completely > without requiring binary recompilation. really felt good to see libsystemd0 go... ;) will report back if i spot any issues. thanks, d. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 04:24:43PM +0100, Jaromil wrote: > > dear Didier, > > thanks for this quick C monitoring tool using the inotify API > > I think this may be useful also for /etc/machine-id - which may be a > different ID from dbus I believe? > > meanwhile an update on my adventures using chromium on Beowulf: it > basically stopped working since I overwrote my machine-id with > "d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3" because, I believe, is not the > machine-id that chromium registered for the sessions of my profile / > users logged into Google. Sorry Jaromil, but I can't reproduce this. I am running beowulf. I had no /etc/machine-id. I installed the Chromium package through apt-get. It complained that I needed to install chromium-sandbox as well, and I did. I launched it from a terminal and it "worked" (no machine-id so far). Then I closed it, created a /etc/machine-id with: # head -c 4 /dev/random | md5sum | cut -d " " -f 1 > /etc/machine-id and restarted it. It worked. Then I changed the machine-id and restarted it several time, and it worked. Then I put /etc/machine-id equal to your "d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3" and it worked. Then I removed /etc/machine-id again, and chromium still works. Then I also stopped dbus and removed /var/lib/dbus/machine-id, so no /etc/machine-id, no /var/lib/dbus/machine-id, and no dbus running. Close and open again, and it works. Then I uninstalled chromium because it sucks anyway. We shall probably dig a deeper into this... My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
dear Katolaz, On Tue, 12 Mar 2019, KatolaZ wrote: > We shall probably dig a deeper into this... indeed what is happening on my machine is hard to reproduce. What also complicates things is that I do aggressive isolation of different browser directories using firejail and my tool tinfoil (https://github.com/dyne/tinfoil) we would need to reproduce this clearly before making any claims. and well... > Then I uninstalled chromium because it sucks anyway. ...me too, I'm deleting all my tinfoil chromium profiles and migrating them to firefox or palemoon, depending from requirements. I used chromium for google products, thinking it may work well, but actually it has become an incredible memory hog and firefox seems to work well with apulse, also for advanced webrtc and http2 things. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 14:10:10 + Mark Hindley wrote: > Hello all, > > We have just packaged a new upstream version of elogind (241.1) for > Devuan. The packages have just hit ceres and beowulf and should be in > mirrors within an hour. > I'm away from home, so I have limited systems for testing. The new elogind/libelogind0 works on my current test system. This is a live-usb with persistence made from a Refracta9 (ascii) install that was upgraded to beowulf. Using xfce and lxdm with elogind and no consolekit. gvfs still works - removable media icons pop up on the desktop, I can mount/unmount as user (clicky) and the icons go away when I pull out the media. :) shutdown/reboot/suspend still work. I can't really test pkexec - synaptic and gparted open without asking for password in a live system, because sudo nopasswd is enabled. Nice work. Good-bye lsd0! fsmithred ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
On 2019-03-12 11:04, KatolaZ wrote: Then I closed it, created a /etc/machine-id with: # head -c 4 /dev/random | md5sum | cut -d " " -f 1 > /etc/machine-id and restarted it. It worked. Then I changed the machine-id and restarted it several time, and it worked. Then I put /etc/machine-id equal to your "d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3" and it worked. Then I removed /etc/machine-id again, and chromium still works. Then I also stopped dbus and removed /var/lib/dbus/machine-id, so no /etc/machine-id, no /var/lib/dbus/machine-id, and no dbus running. Close and open again, and it works. Then I uninstalled chromium because it sucks anyway. We shall probably dig a deeper into this... My2Cents KatolaZ Did you check if session management worked ie. did chromium remember where you left off after a new login or reboot? golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] tried testing elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 02:10:10PM +, Mark Hindley wrote: > Hello all, > > We have just packaged a new upstream version of elogind (241.1) for Devuan. > The > packages have just hit ceres and beowulf and should be in mirrors within an > hour. > > The Big News in this release is that, thanks to the persistence of > CenturionDan > and the excellent response of Sven upstream, libelogind0 is now ABI compatible > with libsystemd0. This allows libelogind0 to replace libsystemd0 completely > without requiring binary recompilation. I just upgraded from ascii to beowulf yesterday for testing things. I have elogind 239.3+20190131-1. Do I just have to do aptitude install elogind? I tried it in aptitude's interactive mode. I updated the package list, and then typed g to get it to propose updates. elogind turns out to be one of the packages that was "automatically held in their current state" Scrolling down to see the reason, it tells me: elogind (held/unchanged, 239.3+20190131-1) will not be upgraded to version 241.1-1, to avoid breaking the following dependencies: but the list of dependencies is empty. Most puzzling. And, by the way I do have a libsystemd0. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tried testing elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:32:18PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 02:10:10PM +, Mark Hindley wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > We have just packaged a new upstream version of elogind (241.1) for Devuan. > > The > > packages have just hit ceres and beowulf and should be in mirrors within an > > hour. > > > > The Big News in this release is that, thanks to the persistence of > > CenturionDan > > and the excellent response of Sven upstream, libelogind0 is now ABI > > compatible > > with libsystemd0. This allows libelogind0 to replace libsystemd0 completely > > without requiring binary recompilation. > > I just upgraded from ascii to beowulf yesterday for testing things. I > have elogind 239.3+20190131-1. > > Do I just have to do aptitude install elogind? > > I tried it in aptitude's interactive mode. Does it work with plain apt or apt-get? Mark ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tried testing elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
On 3/12/19 6:32 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > And, by the way I do have a libsystemd0. "breaking" is about libsystemd0. # apt install elogind will ask for libsystemd0 removal, go ahead :) On 3/12/19 6:27 PM, fsmithred via Dng wrote:> I can't really test pkexec - synaptic and gparted open without asking > for password in a live system, because sudo nopasswd is enabled. > both work with newer version. (mate+slim+elogind) tested pkexec synaptic/gparted/bleachbit so far. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tried testing elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:32:18PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: [cut] > > Do I just have to do aptitude install elogind? > Just try: # apt-get install libelogind0 it should remove libsystemd0, and life should continue as before. If you have multi-arch enabled with support for i386, you might want to install also libelogind0:i386. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tried testing elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 05:42:49PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:32:18PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > Do I just have to do aptitude install elogind? > > > > Just try: > > # apt-get install libelogind0 > > it should remove libsystemd0, and life should continue as before. If > you have multi-arch enabled with support for i386, you might want to > install also libelogind0:i386. That worked. But, worrisome messages: Preparing to unpack .../libpam-elogind_241.1-1_amd64.deb ... Unpacking libpam-elogind:amd64 (241.1-1) over (239.3+20190131-1) ... Preparing to unpack .../elogind_241.1-1_amd64.deb ... Unpacking elogind (241.1-1) over (239.3+20190131-1) ... dpkg: libsystemd0:amd64: dependency problems, but removing anyway as you requested: xserver-xorg-core depends on libsystemd0. vlc-plugin-base:amd64 depends on libsystemd0. udisks2 depends on libsystemd0 (>= 209); however: Package libsystemd0:amd64 is to be removed. sddm depends on libsystemd0. sane-utils depends on libsystemd0. samba-libs:amd64 depends on libsystemd0. rsyslog depends on libsystemd0 (>= 209). pulseaudio depends on libsystemd0. packagekit depends on libsystemd0 (>= 214). openssh-server depends on libsystemd0. lvm2 depends on libsystemd0 (>= 222). libpulse0:amd64 depends on libsystemd0. libprocps7:amd64 depends on libsystemd0 (>= 209). liblvm2cmd2.03:amd64 depends on libsystemd0 (>= 222). gvfs-daemons depends on libsystemd0. cups-daemon depends on libsystemd0. (Reading database ... 303129 files and directories currently installed.) Removing libsystemd0:amd64 (241-1) ... (Reading database ... 303126 files and directories currently installed.) Preparing to unpack .../libelogind0_241.1-1_amd64.deb ... Unpacking libelogind0:amd64 (241.1-1) over (239.3+20190131-1) ... Setting up libelogind0:amd64 (241.1-1) ... Let me hope those packages just have misdirected dependencies and that any I might use still work. -- hendrik > > HND > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] > [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] > [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] > [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tried testing elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:55:47PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 05:42:49PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:32:18PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > [cut] > > > > > > > > Do I just have to do aptitude install elogind? > > > > > > > Just try: > > > > # apt-get install libelogind0 > > > > it should remove libsystemd0, and life should continue as before. If > > you have multi-arch enabled with support for i386, you might want to > > install also libelogind0:i386. > > That worked. But, worrisome messages: I think that is all fine. You can always check there are no missing dependencies with apt-get check Mark ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tried testing elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
On 3/12/19 6:55 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Let me hope those packages just have misdirected dependencies > and that any I might use still work. packages complain because libsystemd0 is removed first during upgrade. after libelogind0 is installed, dependencies are recovered, so everything's fine. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tried testing elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 07:05:49PM +0200, Dimitris via Dng wrote: > On 3/12/19 6:55 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > Let me hope those packages just have misdirected dependencies > > and that any I might use still work. > > packages complain because libsystemd0 is removed first during upgrade. > after libelogind0 is installed, dependencies are recovered, so > everything's fine. Yes, That is what apt does. I think it is fine and as expected. Thanks. Mark ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
Anno domini 2019 Tue, 12 Mar 14:10:10 + Mark Hindley scripsit: > Hello all, > > We have just packaged a new upstream version of elogind (241.1) for Devuan. > The > packages have just hit ceres and beowulf and should be in mirrors within an > hour. > > The Big News in this release is that, thanks to the persistence of > CenturionDan > and the excellent response of Sven upstream, libelogind0 is now ABI compatible > with libsystemd0. This allows libelogind0 to replace libsystemd0 completely > without requiring binary recompilation. > > I have tried basic combinations of slim/lightdm with mate/cinnamon/xfce4 on a > VM > without any problems. But more testing is required. Please do try all of the > desktoppy things and report any regressions. Just tested on 2 beowulf installations with TDE: Everything works fine for me (mounting/unmounting usb devices, sound, ...) Nik > > Thanks for your help and have fun! > > Mark > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
Le 12/03/2019 à 10:40, KatolaZ a écrit : On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 09:48:11AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 11/03/2019 à 19:33, KatolaZ a écrit : guys, anything using dbus will most probably (indirectly) access /var/lib/dbus/machine-id at some point in time, since that file is read when attempting to send a message via dbus. It's most certainly as simple as that. The question is why the hell do a web browser need to attach to Dbus? This question is pure rant because I won't be satisfied by any answer. In order to contact your preferred DE's interface to select the printer when you hit CTRL+P, just to make one example out of several dozens? Is dbus really necessary for that? When printing from Palemoon, the same dialog as all applications pops up, I guess it has to do with CUPS, but Palemoon doesn't read machine-id for that, which certainly means it doesn't use Dbus. Or to unlock the keyring using your DE's keyring manager? I, personally, don't trust that keyring. So don't use. We can only fear what we don't understand. Sure, and I thank you for having looked at Dbus' source. What we don't understand still is the reason for this new /etc/machine-id. One will need to read Systemd's source to know it. ... If you don't trust CORBA/DCOP/dbus, just remove any GNOME/KDE/whatever component from your system. I dislike them and I'm aiming to get rid of them. Xfce needs gvfs (and what else) to show icons for removable disks. I'm writing an application sans-gvfs do do something similar. It's possible. Then, you won't have any "desktop integration" which seems to be a "must" for many users today, but I can assure that life goes on either way. Well, this is meant to make the famous "Linux Desktop" look like MacOS or MSWindows to take a part of their market share. I got the impression that a significant part of devuaneers is running big servers and another part DIY desktop/laptops. The first of these populations easily keep away from this entanglement; the last may be unhappy with it. This said, the job of providing a sans-dbus DE is certainly not something I would ask to Devuan. But there are people in the Devuan community who aim at that. They need a sans-systemd OS like Devuan to do it. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 07:02:29PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: [cut] > > In order to contact your preferred DE's interface to select the printer > > when you hit CTRL+P, just to make one example out of several dozens? > > > Is dbus really necessary for that? When printing from Palemoon, the same > dialog as all applications pops up, I guess it has to do with CUPS, but > Palemoon doesn't read machine-id for that, which certainly means it doesn't > use Dbus. > It is not necessary, but developers are using it :) > > Or to unlock the keyring using your DE's keyring manager? > > > I, personally, don't trust that keyring. So don't use. > I don't use it either, but that's not the point. If an application has support for a feature, and that feature is cut around libWhatever, you need to link libWhatever in. And if libWhatever needs to contact serviceWhatever, it must be working properly before the app start, because an application cannot know in advance whether you will print a document or not... I need to keep libdbus installed only because surf uses libwxgtk, which in turns depends on libgtk2, which in turn uses something else that is linked against libdbus. Go figure... > > We can only fear what we don't understand. > > > Sure, and I thank you for having looked at Dbus' source. What we don't > understand still is the reason for this new /etc/machine-id. One will need > to read Systemd's source to know it. > /etc/machine-id has literally *nothing* to do with dbus. It comes from systemd, and is not present in any genuine Devuan install. You can remove it and apparently no application will be affected in Devuan. > > > If you don't trust CORBA/DCOP/dbus, just remove any GNOME/KDE/whatever > > component from your system. > > > I dislike them and I'm aiming to get rid of them. Xfce needs gvfs (and > what else) to show icons for removable disks. I'm writing an application > sans-gvfs do do something similar. > Great. Welcome to the club :) > > It's possible. Then, you won't have any "desktop integration" which > > seems to be a "must" for many users today, but I can assure that life > > goes on either way. > > > Well, this is meant to make the famous "Linux Desktop" look like MacOS > or MSWindows to take a part of their market share. > > I got the impression that a significant part of devuaneers is running > big servers and another part DIY desktop/laptops. The first of these > populations easily keep away from this entanglement; the last may be unhappy > with it. > That's only part of the story. There are also a lot of D1rs who just use Devuan as their standard desktop. They are not interested in tinkering, and they just want to use their computer with a reasonable distribution. There are Devuan installations which run as public kiosks, and more that power high school and university labs. In all these cases, Devuan must *just work*. If Devuan was just "big servers", we would have dropped most of what most of us consider "nonsense" since from the beginning. But Devuan aims at providing a universal, dependable, stable, free operating system. There are many more use-cases out there than anyone of us alone can imagine, and we need to support as many of them as possible, if we want Devuan to survive and thrive ;) > This said, the job of providing a sans-dbus DE is certainly not > something I would ask to Devuan. But there are people in the Devuan > community who aim at that. They need a sans-systemd OS like Devuan to do it. > And derivatives are welcome to do that, if they like. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 17:04:23 +0100, KatolaZ wrote in message <20190312160423.c62sssfcgc4b6...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 04:24:43PM +0100, Jaromil wrote: > > > > dear Didier, > > > > thanks for this quick C monitoring tool using the inotify API > > > > I think this may be useful also for /etc/machine-id - which may be a > > different ID from dbus I believe? > > > > meanwhile an update on my adventures using chromium on Beowulf: it > > basically stopped working since I overwrote my machine-id with > > "d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3" because, I believe, is not the > > machine-id that chromium registered for the sessions of my profile / > > users logged into Google. > > Sorry Jaromil, but I can't reproduce this. ..did you try logging in into a google account? > I am running beowulf. I had > no /etc/machine-id. I installed the Chromium package through > apt-get. It complained that I needed to install chromium-sandbox as > well, and I did. I launched it from a terminal and it "worked" (no > machine-id so far). > > Then I closed it, created a /etc/machine-id with: > > # head -c 4 /dev/random | md5sum | cut -d " " -f 1 > /etc/machine-id > > and restarted it. It worked. Then I changed the machine-id and > restarted it several time, and it worked. Then I put /etc/machine-id > equal to your "d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3" and it worked. Then I > removed /etc/machine-id again, and chromium still works. Then I also > stopped dbus and removed /var/lib/dbus/machine-id, so no > /etc/machine-id, no /var/lib/dbus/machine-id, and no dbus > running. Close and open again, and it works. > > Then I uninstalled chromium because it sucks anyway. > > We shall probably dig a deeper into this... -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 09:07:07PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 17:04:23 +0100, KatolaZ wrote in message > <20190312160423.c62sssfcgc4b6...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 04:24:43PM +0100, Jaromil wrote: > > > > > > dear Didier, > > > > > > thanks for this quick C monitoring tool using the inotify API > > > > > > I think this may be useful also for /etc/machine-id - which may be a > > > different ID from dbus I believe? > > > > > > meanwhile an update on my adventures using chromium on Beowulf: it > > > basically stopped working since I overwrote my machine-id with > > > "d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3d34dc0d3" because, I believe, is not the > > > machine-id that chromium registered for the sessions of my profile / > > > users logged into Google. > > > > Sorry Jaromil, but I can't reproduce this. > > ..did you try logging in into a google account? > Yes, I did all the tests from either inside a google account or not. Same behaviour. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 10:40:02AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > Then, you won't have any > "desktop integration" which seems to be a "must" for many users today, > but I can assure that life goes on either way. What *is* that "desktop integration" that those users want? -- hendrik > > We can only fear what we don't understand. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] probem with mutt after upgrade to beowulf
I have just upgraded to beowulf from ascii. Suddently mutt will not accept a backspace to scroll upwards one line while reading a text email. However, on the help page, mut still maintains that backspace means to scroll upwards one line. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] LXQT issues after upgrade to beowulf
After upgrading to beowulf, there are several changes in LXQt: The background desktop image has disappeared. Instead, I have a solid black background. The clock has disappeared from the activity bar at the bottom. These may be intended changes that just need reconfiguring, but are disconcerting. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] LXQT issues after upgrade to beowulf
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 05:33:59PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > After upgrading to beowulf, there are several changes in LXQt: > > The background desktop image has disappeared. Instead, I have a solid > black background. > > The clock has disappeared from the activity bar at the bottom. > > These may be intended changes that just need reconfiguring, but are > disconcerting. > Hendrik, please note that Beowulf has not been released yet. Reporting stuff that does not work as intended is important, useful, and fundamental to improve Beowulf. Getting emotional about bugs, pretty much less so :) HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 04:54:02PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 10:40:02AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > > Then, you won't have any > > "desktop integration" which seems to be a "must" for many users today, > > but I can assure that life goes on either way. > > What *is* that "desktop integration" that those users want? > Ask them. Ask those who complained for months before ascii got to beta stage because they could not click on a button and suspend their laptop, since their DE did not supported consolekit. Ask those whose laptop suspended but then did not resume properly, and had screen brightness all off because their session was not properly maintained. Ask those who *absolutely* *needed* usb sticks to be immediately automounted irrespective whatever DE they were using, and wanted the icon on the panel as soon as the drive was up. Ask those who said it was outragious that synaptic did not start straight from the menu, since policykit was not working. Ask those who complain because a widget is misplaced in the bottom panel of a LXDE, those who insist that Devuan is "rough over the edges" because the border of the windows in the default theme is too thin, or to those who are disconcerted because one of their preferred widgets has suddenly disappeared. I am not saying these are not valid complaints, quite the opposite. I am just saying that I accepted years ago that the way I use Linux is not the same other users use it, and I have to keep this in mind if I want to contribute to Devuan. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] probem with mutt after upgrade to beowulf
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 05:30:16PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I have just upgraded to beowulf from ascii. > > Suddently mutt will not accept a backspace to scroll upwards one line > while reading a text email. > > However, on the help page, mut still maintains that backspace means to > scroll upwards one line. > Hendrik, could you please provide more info? I am using mutt under beowulf inside xterm, and backspace works as always. Are you using a different terminal emulator, maybe? Can anyone else reproduce this issue? Hendrik, would you mind filing a bug to bugs.devuan.org, please? HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] LXQT issues after upgrade to beowulf
On 3/12/19 11:33 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > The background desktop image has disappeared. Instead, I have a solid > black background. > maybe some lxqt theme got changed between versions and that previous background isn't available anymore in newer packages(?). what background image did you use before? (take a look in ~/.config/lxqt/panel.conf.) as for the clock , do you mean the panel clock applet? if so, try adding it back, and if it doesn't load, check ~/.xsession-errors. --- btw, tried lxqt last week, works pretty smoothly and is really light. had some issues but didn't keep the DE around much to investigate and report... cheers, d. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] logging uses of machine-id
KatolaZ [12/03/2019 22.54]: > I am not saying these are not valid complaints, quite the opposite. I > am just saying that I accepted years ago that the way I use Linux is > not the same other users use it, and I have to keep this in mind if I > want to contribute to Devuan. Well said. Having used Linux as my main OS since 1994, I am fully capable of using a window manager without a full desktop environment (previously I used fvwm and icewm), but I am very happy to have a working xfce. -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] probem with mutt after upgrade to beowulf
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 05:30:16PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I have just upgraded to beowulf from ascii. > > Suddently mutt will not accept a backspace to scroll upwards one line > while reading a text email. In buster/beowulf, to get sane mutt you need "apt install neomutt". And it doesn't provide the proper executable name via the alternatives scheme, which has a patch rotting in the BTS. Mutt in stretch/ascii was neomutt. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Have you accepted Khorne as your lord and saviour? ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] probem with mutt after upgrade to beowulf
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:14:25PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 05:30:16PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > I have just upgraded to beowulf from ascii. > > > > Suddently mutt will not accept a backspace to scroll upwards one line > > while reading a text email. > > > > However, on the help page, mut still maintains that backspace means to > > scroll upwards one line. > > > > Hendrik, could you please provide more info? I am using mutt under > beowulf inside xterm, and backspace works as always. Are you using a > different terminal emulator, maybe? Can anyone else reproduce this > issue? I'm using qterminal, then ssh to get to the machine where mutt runs. I was using whatever LXQt had as terminal before the upgrade. But, just tried it, with xterm it works just fine. So it's likely a qterminal problem. > > Hendrik, would you mind filing a bug to bugs.devuan.org, please? Happy to do so, but I'll be mostly offline for a few days first because my wife is going for surgery. It may wait until then. -- hendrik > > HND > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] > [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] > [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] > [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tried testing elogind and libelogind0 241.1-1
On 2019-03-12 12:42 p.m., KatolaZ wrote: Just try: # apt-get install libelogind0 it should remove libsystemd0, and life should continue as before. If you have multi-arch enabled with support for i386, you might want to install also libelogind0:i386. That worked for me, I was worried with the warnings up until you posted this. No libsystemd0 put an ear to ear smile on my face. All the stuff I care about on this machine is working normally. (-: Thanks to all involved, Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
