Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
On 3/7/19 2:00 AM, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote: > > I get nothing listed when running 'w' and 'who'. Checking output of 'last' > shows the reboot time correctly but my slim login doesn’t appear at all. same here. w used to work with lightdm. tty logins still show normally. also tried with procps/ceres (downgrade from beowulf), but that made no difference. lastlog also doesn't show any user logins since 30/1.. (right after policykit upgrade - https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20190131.103118.c6fc512b.en.html ) policykit installed version : 0.105-25+devuan1 elogind installed version : 239.3+20190131-1 is there a bug report for this yet? (will probably try consolekit again, just to check if it makes any difference) d. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
On Thu, Mar 07, 2019 at 11:07:41AM +0200, Dimitris via Dng wrote: > On 3/7/19 2:00 AM, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote: > > > > I get nothing listed when running 'w' and 'who'. Checking output of 'last' > > shows the reboot time correctly but my slim login doesn’t appear at all. > > same here. w used to work with lightdm. tty logins still show normally. > also tried with procps/ceres (downgrade from beowulf), but that made no > difference. > > lastlog also doesn't show any user logins since 30/1.. (right after > policykit upgrade - > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20190131.103118.c6fc512b.en.html ) > policykit installed version : 0.105-25+devuan1 > elogind installed version : 239.3+20190131-1 > > is there a bug report for this yet? > (will probably try consolekit again, just to check if it makes any > difference) Could somebody plese file a bug report on bugs.devuan.org? Thanks KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
Further on this: I've also got a dist-upgraded beowulf with a no-install-recommends installation of task-xfce-desktop, and this one is fine wrt 'w'/'last' report for slim using consolekt, and still fine when I downgraded consolekit to the ascii version. The newest 'slim' is fine btw. A little bit of digging tells me that my laptop has XDG_SESSION_COOKIE set which my beowulf VM doesn't. That difference might be enough to steer things differently for /etc/X11/Xsession.d/90consolekit, which (by guesswork) has a significant decision point about the session startup. Basically, X startup only runs /usr/bin/ck-launch-session if the variable is unset (at that time). Someone who knows stuff might kindly pull me right, but now I'm chasing the reason why may latop gets XDG_SESSION_COOKIE set (while my beowulf VM doesn't)... Ralph. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
On Thu, Mar 07, 2019 at 11:07:41AM +0200, Dimitris via Dng wrote: > On 3/7/19 2:00 AM, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote: > > > > I get nothing listed when running 'w' and 'who'. Checking output of 'last' > > shows the reboot time correctly but my slim login doesn’t appear at all. > > same here. w used to work with lightdm. tty logins still show normally. > also tried with procps/ceres (downgrade from beowulf), but that made no > difference. > > lastlog also doesn't show any user logins since 30/1.. (right after > policykit upgrade - > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20190131.103118.c6fc512b.en.html ) > policykit installed version : 0.105-25+devuan1 > elogind installed version : 239.3+20190131-1 > > is there a bug report for this yet? > (will probably try consolekit again, just to check if it makes any > difference) Thanks for these reports. I think there are 2 separate things going on here: You are right that elogind doesn't seem to be updating lastlog. I think this is a different issue from the slim logins not being registered. This seems to be long standing and unreleated to elogind/consolekit. I can reproduce both. Would you open separate bugs please? Thanks Mark ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
Mark Hindley wrote on 7/3/19 8:38 pm: > Thanks for these reports. I think there are 2 separate things going on here: > > You are right that elogind doesn't seem to be updating lastlog. > > I think this is a different issue from the slim logins not being > registered. This seems to be long standing and unreleated to > elogind/consolekit. > > I can reproduce both. > > Would you open separate bugs please? I'm lodging one about 'slim logins not being registered' right now... Ralph. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
On 3/7/19 11:38 AM, Mark Hindley wrote: > You are right that elogind doesn't seem to be updating lastlog. too busy right now, will file this bug report later today if nobody else does. thanks, d signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
On Thu, Mar 07, 2019 at 09:43:05AM +1100, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > > > KatolaZ wrote on 7/3/19 9:30 am: > > Bug report to bugs.devuan.org, please. This is something we definitely > > need to pin down and fix. Thanks Ralph! > > Yes, though I just discovered it on my system, and whilst I believe it's > a plain, dist-upgraded ascii with a well-defined couple of variations, > I've also "fixed things"(tm). > > Does anyone else have bogus 'w'/'last' reports? How does one obtain 'w'/'last' reports? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] PHP 7.1
Hi there I am running devuan ascii lsb_release -a No LSB modules are available. Distributor ID: Devuan Description: Devuan GNU/Linux 2.0 (ascii) Release: 2.0 Codename: ascii uname -a Linux jrlp02 4.9.0-8-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.9.144-3.1 (2019-02-19) x86_64 GNU/Linux I currently have php 7.0 installed php --version PHP 7.0.33-0+deb9u2 (cli) (built: Feb 25 2019 23:13:19) ( NTS ) Copyright (c) 1997-2017 The PHP Group Zend Engine v3.0.0, Copyright (c) 1998-2017 Zend Technologies with Zend OPcache v7.0.33-0+deb9u2, Copyright (c) 1999-2017, by Zend Technologies I want to install php 7.1.3 (or later) as a tool that I want to run (grav - a simple website builder) requires at least php 7.1.3 bin/grav --help You are running PHP 7.0.33-0+deb9u2, but Grav needs at least PHP 7.1.3 to run. Is there any way to install php 7.1.3? I can't see it in the repositories. My sources.list cat sources.list ## package repositories #deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii main #deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates main #deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii-security main #deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii-backports main deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii main deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates main deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-security main ## source repositories #deb-src http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii main #deb-src http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates main #deb-src http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii-security main #deb-src http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii-backports main #deb-src http://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii main #deb-src http://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates main #deb-src http://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-security main Thans ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
On Thursday 07 March 2019 at 13:27:10, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Thu, Mar 07, 2019 at 09:43:05AM +1100, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > > > > Does anyone else have bogus 'w'/'last' reports? > > How does one obtain 'w'/'last' reports? 1. Type "w"; you should get something like: # w 12:55:35 up 2:22, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.11 USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT root pts/0xdsl-78-34-235-1 10:330.00s 0.01s 0.00s w 2. Type "last"; you should get something like: # last root pts/1198.51.100.56 Thu Mar 7 12:04 - 12:05 (00:00) root pts/0xdsl-78-34-235-1 Thu Mar 7 10:33 still logged in reboot system boot 3.2.0-5-amd64Thu Mar 7 10:33 - 12:56 (02:22) root pts/0xdsl-78-34-235-1 Thu Mar 7 10:08 - 10:31 (00:23) root pts/0xdsl-78-34-235-1 Thu Feb 28 16:22 - 11:20 (2+18:58) :) Antony. -- Wanted: telepath. You know where to apply. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] PHP 7.1
On 3/7/19 2:53 PM, swdev via Dng wrote: > Is there any way to install php 7.1.3? I can't see it in the repositories. you need 3rd party repo for that. check this thread : https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2698 and use at your own risk :) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] PHP 7.1
btw, devuan beowulf repo has php7.3 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
On Thu, Mar 07, 2019 at 01:58:03PM +0100, Antony Stone wrote: > On Thursday 07 March 2019 at 13:27:10, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 07, 2019 at 09:43:05AM +1100, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone else have bogus 'w'/'last' reports? > > > > How does one obtain 'w'/'last' reports? > > 1. Type "w"; you should get something like: > > # w > 12:55:35 up 2:22, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.11 > USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT > root pts/0xdsl-78-34-235-1 10:330.00s 0.01s 0.00s w > > 2. Type "last"; you should get something like: > > # last > root pts/1198.51.100.56 Thu Mar 7 12:04 - 12:05 (00:00) > root pts/0xdsl-78-34-235-1 Thu Mar 7 10:33 still logged in > reboot system boot 3.2.0-5-amd64Thu Mar 7 10:33 - 12:56 (02:22) > root pts/0xdsl-78-34-235-1 Thu Mar 7 10:08 - 10:31 (00:23) > root pts/0xdsl-78-34-235-1 Thu Feb 28 16:22 - 11:20 (2+18:58) > Yes, that's the kind of stuff I see, though I get a few more messages about the reboots I did. So it works on ascii. But that was never in doubt, was it? And I'm using lightdm. Is beowulf already in a state where it is generally useable for an ordinary user on a laptop? Except maybe a few quirks like the one we're now debugging? If so I'll upgrade soon and look for problems. I'd prefer not to have to downgrade or reinstall if my system becomes unusable. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
On Thu, Mar 07, 2019 at 08:13:01AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: [cut] > > Is beowulf already in a state where it is generally useable for an ordinary > user on a laptop? Except maybe a few quirks like the one we're now > debugging? If so I'll upgrade soon and look for problems. I'd prefer not > to have to downgrade or reinstall if my system becomes unusable. > Define "ordinary user on a laptop". I have been using beowulf since about 8 months ago on my laptop, and haven't experience any major breakage (but I should probably also definne "major breakage" here). My impression is that beowulf is pretty usable, but I am not running a DE so my experience does not cover session-related automagic goodies. It would be great if more people would actually move on beowulf as soon as possible, so that we can identify as many glitches as possible and put together a beta of beowulf. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
>> You are right that elogind doesn't seem to be updating lastlog. submitted bug report #302 minutes ago. thanks, d. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 07/03/19 at 08:38, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote: > It uses instead ifconfig, iwconfig, wpa_supplicant and > dhclient. Next improvement would be using current commands (ip and iw) in place of the obsolete and deprecated ones, i.e. ifconfig and iwconfig: https://serverfault.com/questions/458628/should-i-quit-using-ifconfig https://access.redhat.com/solutions/1194553 iwconfig was developed by Jean Tourrilhes at HP, and it uses Linux Wireless Extensions from the same author, which have been log deprecated: http://linuxwireless.sipsolutions.net/en/developers/Documentation/Wireless-Extensions/#Is_WE_being_further_developed_.3F -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 6:49 am: > Next improvement would be using current commands (ip and iw) in place > of the obsolete and deprecated ones, i.e. ifconfig and iwconfig: The terms "obsolete" and "deprecated" are badly chosen, since the programs ifconfig and iwconfig are neither. You may well have your reasons to like other programs to achieve the functions offered by ifconfig and iwconfig, but that does not make ifconfig and iwconfig be neither obsolete nor deprecated. Ralph. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 07/03/19 at 21:22, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 6:49 am: >> Next improvement would be using current commands (ip and iw) in place >> of the obsolete and deprecated ones, i.e. ifconfig and iwconfig: > The terms "obsolete" and "deprecated" are badly chosen, since the > programs ifconfig and iwconfig are neither. Yes, they are. They are pending removal from several (all?) major distributions, some already removed them years ago, and they receive little development, mostly just security patches. > You may well have your > reasons to like other programs to achieve the functions offered by > ifconfig and iwconfig, but that does not make ifconfig and iwconfig be > neither obsolete nor deprecated. They are both, and I provided with pointers to explain why they are. You are of course free to ignore facts. We do live in a free society. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 8:05 am: > On 07/03/19 at 21:22, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: >> Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 6:49 am: >>> Next improvement would be using current commands (ip and iw) in place >>> of the obsolete and deprecated ones, i.e. ifconfig and iwconfig: >> The terms "obsolete" and "deprecated" are badly chosen, since the >> programs ifconfig and iwconfig are neither. > > > Yes, they are. They are pending removal from several (all?) major > distributions, some already removed them years ago, and they receive > little development, mostly just security patches. ifconfig and iwconfig are useful programs. They work well without needing constant development; security patches are good. >> You may well have your >> reasons to like other programs to achieve the functions offered by >> ifconfig and iwconfig, but that does not make ifconfig and iwconfig be >> neither obsolete nor deprecated. > > > They are both, and I provided with pointers to explain why they are. > > You are of course free to ignore facts. We do live in a free society. "facts" ?? It is a fact that ifconfig and iwconfig are useful programs. They work well without needing constant development; security patches are good. Ralph. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 07/03/19 at 22:18, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > > Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 8:05 am: >> On 07/03/19 at 21:22, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: >>> Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 6:49 am: Next improvement would be using current commands (ip and iw) in place of the obsolete and deprecated ones, i.e. ifconfig and iwconfig: >>> The terms "obsolete" and "deprecated" are badly chosen, since the >>> programs ifconfig and iwconfig are neither. >> >> Yes, they are. They are pending removal from several (all?) major >> distributions, some already removed them years ago, and they receive >> little development, mostly just security patches. > > ifconfig and iwconfig are useful programs. I did not write they are useless. I wrote that they are obsolete and deprecated. > They work well without > needing constant development; security patches are good. They are limited, they suffer shortcomings, they are not getting new code to keep in pace with modern networking evolution. ifconfig does not handle well multiple ip's to the same interface, is limited to 32-bit counters when the kernel has long been using 64 bit counters, does not support/detect the latest queue disciplines, they are stuck to old networking APIs that are ill suited to handle tunneling, VLAN, traffic shaping, control and security extensions and many features that are key to such things as Software Defined Networking. >>> You may well have your >>> reasons to like other programs to achieve the functions offered by >>> ifconfig and iwconfig, but that does not make ifconfig and iwconfig be >>> neither obsolete nor deprecated. >> >> They are both, and I provided with pointers to explain why they are. >> >> You are of course free to ignore facts. We do live in a free society. > > "facts" ?? > > It is a fact that ifconfig and iwconfig are useful programs. Again, I did not write they are useless. They still are useful if you only you do basic networking stuff (though they are mot more useful than the new tools at that). But they lack support for the most modern and advanced features of the Linux kernel networking stack. > They work > well without needing constant development; They lack support for advanced features that have been present in the kernel for many years because nobody bothered to update them. New development all goes into ip and iw. > security patches are good. That's the reason they have not yet been dropped by many distributions, even though all major ones no longer depend on them for anything critical, like boot time networking configuration (Debian took them away from sysv init scripts before they switched to systemd). These are facts. Now, other than emotional, personal and irrational reasons, what technical motives push you to still use those old, obsolete, limited and deprecated tools when you've been having available newer ones that are much superior and are just as easy to use? -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On Fri, Mar 08, 2019 at 07:22:37AM +1100, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 6:49 am: > > Next improvement would be using current commands (ip and iw) in place > > of the obsolete and deprecated ones, i.e. ifconfig and iwconfig: > > The terms "obsolete" and "deprecated" are badly chosen, since the > programs ifconfig and iwconfig are neither. You may well have your > reasons to like other programs to achieve the functions offered by > ifconfig and iwconfig, but that does not make ifconfig and iwconfig be > neither obsolete nor deprecated. Yes, they're not the appropriate words. You'd want "ancient to the point of near-uselessness" and "about to be removed". ifconfig had been replaced 20 years ago. For compat reasons, it had been kept around for way, way longer than it should -- and the time to finally pull the plug is long overdue. It can still do some simple tasks, but tools newer than middle stone age can do everything ifconfig can. An analogy would be soviet-style AC plug (round, with two pins). They may work in some basic setups, but otherwise not only fail at important functionality (grounding in this case) but also interfere with _other_ plugs having grounding. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Have you accepted Khorne as your lord and saviour? ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Problems with mate-power-manager
Dear All, I am using ascii with mate on a laptop and recently I switched from xfce-power-manager (perfectly working) to mate-power-manager from hezeh.org repo. Following recommendations from repo mantainer I have also installed mate-session-manager, mate-control-center and mate-settings-daemon from the same repo. So far the battery icon is working as per solution of bug report #240, but the laptop is not suspending after inactivity (10 min) on battery. The system is suspending ok when invoked from end session dialog or from cli, also OK on closing the lid. The system is also suspending according to settings (30 min) on AC power. When on battery and left open the screen goes blank, but after 10 minutes, instead of going into sleep state, it awakes showing the password entry dialog. The problem persists also after installing upower version 0.99.10 from beowulf repos. This issue is very annoying and It would be great if some of you could help. Please forgive me if the info are quite generic and don't hesitate to ask if you need more info or logs. Thank you all in advance, Cheers! Antonio ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 9:04 am: > I did not write they are useless. I wrote that they are obsolete and > deprecated. Yes. And those terms are badly chosen, because they are neither. >> They work well without >> needing constant development; security patches are good. > > They are limited, they suffer shortcomings, they are not getting new > code to keep in pace with modern networking evolution. ifconfig does > not handle well multiple ip's to the same interface, is limited to > 32-bit counters when the kernel has long been using 64 bit counters, > does not support/detect the latest queue disciplines, they are stuck to > old networking APIs that are ill suited to handle tunneling, VLAN, > traffic shaping, control and security extensions and many features that > are key to such things as Software Defined Networking. Wanting a program to do things is doesn't is plain stupid. > They lack support for advanced features that have been present in the > kernel for many years because nobody bothered to update them. New > development all goes into ip and iw. see above. > Now, other than emotional, personal and irrational reasons, what > technical motives push you to still use those old, obsolete, limited and > deprecated tools when you've been having available newer ones that are > much superior and are just as easy to use? I believe I objected to our choice of words, and not your reasons for insisting on using those words, or your reasons for wanting these programs to not be used. Like many people, you are free to use whichever programs you may want, and you are free to think that your choice of programs for your purposes is the One And True choice, even when it isn't. There is no reason for you to go emotional about it. The fact remains that ifconfig and iwconfig are neither deprecated nor obsolete. Ralph. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
(Hey, we've had this discussion at least once before.) Quoting Ralph Ronnquist via Dng (dng@lists.dyne.org): > The terms "obsolete" and "deprecated" are badly chosen, since the > programs ifconfig and iwconfig are neither. You may well have your > reasons to like other programs to achieve the functions offered by > ifconfig and iwconfig, but that does not make ifconfig and iwconfig be > neither obsolete nor deprecated. net-tools, source of ifconfig, arp, rarp, netstat, route, hostname, ethers, ipmaddr, iptunnel, mii-tool, nameif, plipconfig, and slattach, last had a release on 2011-10-14. (https://sourceforge.net/projects/net-tools/files/) The perception that it's deprecated is, at minimum, quite widely held, e.g., https://www.archlinux.org/news/deprecation-of-net-tools/ . Ditto obsolete: https://lwn.net/Articles/710533/ A significant number of newer (but getting old!) kernel features are inaccessible from the net-tools suie. Long ago, I had a list of those, but would have to hunt to re-find it. The list included source-based routing, QoS, VLAN, bonding, bridges. iwconfig is a slightly different case, being not from net-tools but rather Jean Tourrilhes's Wireless Tools for Linus, a project sponsored at the time by HP. That codebase was last released in _2007_, and is considered deprecated by the kernel coders: https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/documentation/iw/replace-iwconfig As actress Simone Signoret said as the title to her 1978 memoir, 'La nostalgie n'est plus ce qu'elle était.' (Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.) Ms. Signoret said she picked up and translated said aphorism from an inspired bit of NYC graffiti. -- Cheers,You must rise or sink / You must conquer or win, Rick Moen Or serve and lose. / Suffer or triumph, / Be anvil or hammer. r...@linuxmafia.com McQ! (4x80)-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Gesellige Lieder, Ein Anderes ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 07/03/19 at 23:26, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > > Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 9:04 am: >> I did not write they are useless. I wrote that they are obsolete and >> deprecated. > > Yes. And those terms are badly chosen, because they are neither. They are both, and I explained why they are listing some of the technically compelling reasons they are considered obsolete and deprecated by an overwhelming majority of people who maintain distributions. >>> They work well without >>> needing constant development; security patches are good. >> They are limited, they suffer shortcomings, they are not getting new >> code to keep in pace with modern networking evolution. ifconfig does >> not handle well multiple ip's to the same interface, is limited to >> 32-bit counters when the kernel has long been using 64 bit counters, >> does not support/detect the latest queue disciplines, they are stuck to >> old networking APIs that are ill suited to handle tunneling, VLAN, >> traffic shaping, control and security extensions and many features that >> are key to such things as Software Defined Networking. > > Wanting a program to do things is doesn't is plain stupid. ip and iw do the "things" (what things?) they were developed to do. It's ifconfig and iwconfig which suffer from limitations and shotcomings. >> They lack support for advanced features that have been present in the >> kernel for many years because nobody bothered to update them. New >> development all goes into ip and iw. > > see above. I see you're still stubbornly ignoring facts and fail to explain why. >> Now, other than emotional, personal and irrational reasons, what >> technical motives push you to still use those old, obsolete, limited and >> deprecated tools when you've been having available newer ones that are >> much superior and are just as easy to use? > > I believe Technical matters are not a matter of belief. > I objected to our choice of words, You "believe" things you did? Don't you even know why yourself did and said things? > and not your reasons for > insisting on using those words, I have technically proven and linguistically sound reasons to call those commands what they are, that is obsolete and deprecated, like an overwhelming majority of technically minded people do. > or your reasons for wanting these > programs to not be used. I never tried to impose my will on anybody else. You're doing a straw-man attack on me. > Like many people, you are free to use whichever > programs you may want, and you are free to think that your choice of > programs for your purposes is the One And True choice, even when it > isn't. There is no reason for you to go emotional about it. You accused me of intentions I never had, and are still failing at providing with technical reasons why obsolete, nearly unmaintained, universally deprecated and way outdated commands are to still be used today when they do not offer any advantage over the current, maintained, universally available and much more versatile and powerful and still easy to use commands that have been available for decades. > The fact remains that ifconfig and iwconfig are neither deprecated nor > obsolete. They both are, and they've been so for many years. Major distributions started dropping them from 2014, if not earlier. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 9:48 am: >> I believe > > Technical matters are not a matter of belief. > >> I objected to our choice of words, > > You "believe" things you did? Don't you even know why yourself did > and said things? > >> and not your reasons for >> insisting on using those words, > > I have technically proven and linguistically sound reasons to call > those commands what they are, that is obsolete and deprecated, like an > overwhelming majority of technically minded people do. > >> or your reasons for wanting these >> programs to not be used. > > I never tried to impose my will on anybody else. You're doing a > straw-man attack on me. > >> Like many people, you are free to use whichever >> programs you may want, and you are free to think that your choice of >> programs for your purposes is the One And True choice, even when it >> isn't. There is no reason for you to go emotional about it. > > You accused me of intentions I never had, and are still failing at > providing with technical reasons why obsolete, nearly unmaintained, > universally deprecated and way outdated commands are to still be used > today when they do not offer any advantage over the current, maintained, > universally available and much more versatile and powerful and still > easy to use commands that have been available for decades. It's intriguing to see you get so emotional about this. Just the other week I opted for using ifconfig because I couldn't work out the single command for confguring a tap with an IP address, and bring it up. With ip, I seemed to need 3 commands, so at that time I liked ifconfig better. It's certainly not obsolete yet. Perhaps there is a single ip command, and perhaps I can learn it, but that still wouldn't make ifconfig obsolete. Though, I realise I should let you call it/them "deprecated"; it may well be how you think of them even if I don't do that. The word is just an expression of an opinion about these programs and not an attribute of them. Ralph. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 07/03/19 at 23:26, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 9:04 am: >> I did not write they are useless. I wrote that they are obsolete and >> deprecated. > > Yes. And those terms are badly chosen, because they are neither. Please tell us. When you need to do firewalling, what do you use and why? 1) ipfwadm 2) ipchains 3) iptables -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 10:56 am: > Please tell us. When you need to do firewalling, what do you use and why? > 1) ipfwadm > 2) ipchains > 3) iptables I assume you ask me specifically. In most hypotheticals I care to imagine, I would use iptables, because I believe I know it well enough to make it do what I would want it to do. Of course, if it'd be for a Mac powerbook, I would have to sob for at least a week, and then use pf, probably. You have a favourite, too? Ralph. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 08/03/19 at 00:50, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > > It's intriguing to see you get so emotional about this. My objections are technically motivated and documented. Yours are neither. > Just the other week I opted for using ifconfig because I couldn't work > out the single command for confguring a tap with an IP address, and > bring it up. With ip, I seemed to need 3 commands, so at that time I > liked ifconfig better. Your own failures at using modern tools and your personal preferences are not technically compelling reasons to consider outdated and deprecated commands anything different than what they are. > It's certainly not obsolete yet. They surely are, and Rick and myself provided with links to document this and a list of shortcomings that plague those commands. You failed at documenting anything technical to prop up your personal convictions. > Perhaps there is > a single ip command, and perhaps I can learn it, but that still wouldn't > make ifconfig obsolete. Again, your failure/unwillingness at learning modern tools does not make them bad and does not make deprecated and obsolete commands modern and up to date. > Though, I realise I should let you call it/them "deprecated"; It's not just me, it's many thousand people who do. > it may > well be how you think of them even if I don't do that. It's not just that I think they are. They are considered to be that way by an overwhelming majority of Linux developers and sysadmins. > The word is just > an expression of an opinion about these programs and not an attribute of > them. > > Ralph. Still nothing technical about how those commands could be considered anything different than obsolete and deprecated. You only have your personal convictions to show. Bye, -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On Fri, Mar 08, 2019 at 12:56:53AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > Please tell us. When you need to do firewalling, what do you use and why? > > 1) ipfwadm > > 2) ipchains > > 3) iptables An interesting example you made here... -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Have you accepted Khorne as your lord and saviour? ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 08/03/19 at 01:09, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 10:56 am: >> Please tell us. When you need to do firewalling, what do you use and why? >> 1) ipfwadm >> 2) ipchains >> 3) iptables > I assume you ask me specifically. No, I'm asking you generically. > In most hypotheticals I care to > imagine, I would use iptables, because I believe I know it well enough > to make it do what I would want it to do. Can't you come up with any technical reason as to why *all* firewalling today in Linux is done with iptables (a little with nftables) and none with ipchains and ipfwadm anymore? > Of course, if it'd be for a > Mac powerbook, I would have to sob for at least a week, and then use pf, > probably. Irrelevant remark. That's not Linux. > You have a favourite, too? I favour technically updated, advanced, modern, maintained, versatile, powerful and easy to use tools. In this case, it's iptables. And ip and iw for the same reasons, like all distro maintainers and almost all Linux networking developers do. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > You accused me of intentions I never had, and are still failing at > providing with technical reasons why obsolete, nearly unmaintained, > universally deprecated and way outdated commands are to still be used > today when they do not offer any advantage over the current, > maintained, universally available and much more versatile and powerful > and still easy to use commands that have been available for decades. Allesandro, my friend, over many years on the Internet, I've found that certain discussions are best concluded with amicable production of the set of facts that all present (within reason; and my other friend Ralph Ronnquist easily qualifies) can agree upon, and then amicably agreeing to disagree on the rest. I'd suggest this is one of those. -- Cheers,You must rise or sink / You must conquer or win, Rick Moen Or serve and lose. / Suffer or triumph, / Be anvil or hammer. r...@linuxmafia.com McQ! (4x80)-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Gesellige Lieder, Ein Anderes ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
So you ask a question just so you can spit on me? Really, boy, you should have a chat with your shrink. Ralph. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 08/03/19 at 01:19, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > > Allesandro, my friend, over many years on the Internet, I've found that > certain discussions are best concluded with amicable production of the > set of facts that all present (within reason; and my other friend Ralph > Ronnquist easily qualifies) can agree upon, and then amicably agreeing > to disagree on the rest. > > I'd suggest this is one of those. 👍 -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
Quoting Ralph Ronnquist via Dng (dng@lists.dyne.org): > It's intriguing to see you get so emotional about this. I obviously would not presume to speak for Allesandro, but sometimes people get frustrated in Internet arguments in ways they might not in more-interactive discussion. (Anyway, I'd always rather make charitable assumptions about people. Well, not always, as achieving a saing a saintly disposition is still a work in process. But one tries.) > Just the other week I opted for using ifconfig because I couldn't work > out the single command for confguring a tap with an IP address, and > bring it up. With ip, I seemed to need 3 commands, so at that time I > liked ifconfig better. I I completely know how that is, starting with familiarity and then continuing with efficiency (or apparent efficiency). I may more may not ever get as comfortable with 'ss' as I am with netstat, for example, and 'netstat -nalp' is hard-wired into my memory, whereas I have to look up the 'ss' equivalent, every time. This iproute2 user guide might help, as it has for me: https://www.baturin.org/docs/iproute2/#Tun%20and%20Tap%20devices -- Cheers,"I never quarrel with a man who buys ink by the barrel." Rick Moen-- Rep. Charles B. Brownson (R-Indiana), ca. 1960 r...@linuxmafia.com McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
On Thu, Mar 07, 2019 at 02:31:06PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Thu, Mar 07, 2019 at 08:13:01AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > Is beowulf already in a state where it is generally useable for an ordinary > > user on a laptop? Except maybe a few quirks like the one we're now > > debugging? If so I'll upgrade soon and look for problems. I'd prefer not > > to have to downgrade or reinstall if my system becomes unusable. > > > > Define "ordinary user on a laptop". I have been using beowulf since > about 8 months ago on my laptop, and haven't experience any major > breakage (but I should probably also definne "major breakage" > here). My impression is that beowulf is pretty usable, but I am not > running a DE so my experience does not cover session-related automagic > goodies. That's good enough for me. Thanks. > > It would be great if more people would actually move on beowulf as > soon as possible, so that we can identify as many glitches as possible > and put together a beta of beowulf. I plan to upgrade this weekend. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for testing of slim/experimental
Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com): > Is beowulf already in a state where it is generally useable for an ordinary > user on a laptop? Simple solution: Define yourself to be extraordinary. ;-> -- Cheers, I could maybe do one pilate. Rick Moen -- Matt Watson (@biorhythmist) r...@linuxmafia.com McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 22:05:39 +0100 Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 07/03/19 at 21:22, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > > Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 6:49 am: > >> Next improvement would be using current commands (ip and iw) in > >> place of the obsolete and deprecated ones, i.e. ifconfig and > >> iwconfig: > > The terms "obsolete" and "deprecated" are badly chosen, since the > > programs ifconfig and iwconfig are neither. > > > Yes, they are. They are pending removal from several (all?) major > distributions, some already removed them years ago, Should I not mention systemd. I'm sure it is a drop in replacement in that sentence above. > > You are of course free to ignore facts. We do live in a free society. Shrug, no such thing as facts. Just common majority accepted explanations for "reality'. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
