[DNG] Which repository has apulse package?
Hi, I learned that apulse make running higher version of firefox without pulseaudio. I put stable, testing, unstable in the sources.list file. After updating, apt-cache search apulse brings no package. deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main contrib non-free deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-updates main contrib non-free deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main contrib non-free deb-src http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main contrib non-free # Devuan testing deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged testingmain contrib non-free deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged unstable main contrib non-free ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I'm not part of the Debian project
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 23:32:32 -0700, Rick wrote in message
<20171029063232.gd30...@linuxmafia.com>:
> Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
>
> > I don't know how to do the preceding, and I'm forever prioritizing
> > other things above learning it.
>
> Well, if you have a spare hour some time, try debhelper[1]
...and start writing a tutorial as you learn, we're here to help
(coach, bug-test etc) you thru writing the tutorial. :o)
..having you "just follow" Rick's advice means we have one more
.deb packager, "making" you write a tutorial, makes you a good
.deb packager, aaand, gives you an excellent recipe pointer to
shove down e.g. my throat. ;o)
> [1]
> https://faceted.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/howto-build-a-trivial-debian-package-with-dh_make/
..I'd be more verbose, e.g.:
#/bin/bash
mkdir -vp foo-0.1
cd foo-0.1
dh_make --createorig --indep # ..this should prompt you to hit enter
mkdir -vp essentials
mv -v debian/{changelog,compat,rules,control} essentials
rm -vr debian
mv -v essentials debian # ..here I gather we want "debian/essentials"?
echo './example-src/* ./' > debian/foo.install
mkdir -vp example-src/usr/share/example
touch example-src/usr/share/example/file # ..this should create
# the empty (git source?) file (or file tree) to be installed
dpkg-buildpackage -uc -tc -rfakeroot
dpkg --contents ../foo_0.1-1_all.deb # ..now you can inspect
# the resulting Devuan package
#
#
# Pay attention to Leif's note here: "For reasons I haven’t
# investigated, if you try to put files under /usr/local/ this
# recipe won’t work.
# (There are probably other directories this will also not work
# for; /usr/share and /var are all that I’ve tried successfully.)
..not yet tested, I too have questions. :o)
--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.
___
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Re: [DNG] Which repository has apulse package?
On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 16:52:38 +0900, Hughe wrote in message : > Hi, > > I learned that apulse make running higher version of firefox without > pulseaudio. > > I put stable, testing, unstable in the sources.list file. > After updating, apt-cache search apulse brings no package. > > deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main contrib > non-free > deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-updates main contrib > non-free > deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main contrib > non-free > deb-src http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main contrib > non-free > > # Devuan testing > deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged testingmain contrib > non-free > > deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged unstable main contrib > non-free ..try adding experimental and rerun 'apt-cache search apulse', I don't have testing nor unstable, only jessie & the jessies and experimental: root@d44:~# date ;dpkg -l apulse |fmt ;date Sun Oct 29 09:50:14 CET 2017 Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name Version Architecture Description +++-==---= ii apulse 0.1.9-2 amd64PulseAudio emulation for ALSA Sun Oct 29 09:50:14 CET 2017 -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I'm not part of the Debian project
On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 09:41:46 +0100, Arnt wrote in message
<20171029094146.5b8f8508@d44>:
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 23:32:32 -0700, Rick wrote in message
> <20171029063232.gd30...@linuxmafia.com>:
>
> > Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> >
> > > I don't know how to do the preceding, and I'm forever prioritizing
> > > other things above learning it.
> >
> > Well, if you have a spare hour some time, try debhelper[1]
>
> ...and start writing a tutorial as you learn, we're here to help
> (coach, bug-test etc) you thru writing the tutorial. :o)
>
> ..having you "just follow" Rick's advice means we have one more
> .deb packager, "making" you write a tutorial, makes you a good
> .deb packager, aaand, gives you an excellent recipe pointer to
> shove down e.g. my throat. ;o)
>
> > [1]
> > https://faceted.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/howto-build-a-trivial-debian-package-with-dh_make/
> >
>
> ..I'd be more verbose, e.g.:
> #/bin/bash
>
> mkdir -vp foo-0.1
> cd foo-0.1
> dh_make --createorig --indep # ..this should prompt you to hit enter
>
> mkdir -vp essentials
> mv -v debian/{changelog,compat,rules,control} essentials
> rm -vr debian
> mv -v essentials debian # ..here I gather we want
> "debian/essentials"?
>
> echo './example-src/* ./' > debian/foo.install
> mkdir -vp example-src/usr/share/example
> touch example-src/usr/share/example/file # ..this should create
> # the empty (git source?) file (or file tree) to be installed
>
> dpkg-buildpackage -uc -tc -rfakeroot
> dpkg --contents ../foo_0.1-1_all.deb # ..now you can inspect
> # the resulting Devuan package
> #
> #
> # Pay attention to Leif's note here: "For reasons I haven’t
> # investigated, if you try to put files under /usr/local/ this
> # recipe won’t work.
> # (There are probably other directories this will also not work
> # for; /usr/share and /var are all that I’ve tried successfully.)
>
>
> ..not yet tested, I too have questions. :o)
...and one answer, found in the 3'rd comment:
https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch08s03.html.en#id595726
--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Clear communication (Was: Debian testing drop redis)
On 29/10/17 00:41, Patrick Meade wrote: On 10/28/2017 02:06 AM, John Hughes wrote: While keeping your eyes peeled is obviously a good thing please remember the downsides of crying wolf when the wolf isn't there. Clear communication is also a good thing. Perhaps the words "[D]rops the Debian-specific support for ... in favour of using systemd" were not the best choice of words to summarize something that was "not a sysvinit-specific change" Perhaps. In poor light a dog can look look a wolf. Do you cry "wolf!" or use a flashlight? Personally I'm in favour of light. Some others prefer heat. Anyway, this horse is dead, time to stop beating it. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I'm not part of the Debian project
On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 11:32:32PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > My concern is mostly that you're giving _generally_ bad advice that is > likely to bite people if/when they keep applying it, and apply it to > software more interdependent with the rest of the system. If you merely > said 'Hey, I do this because it's convenient in this case, but you could > get in trouble if you ignore package management on a package-oriented > distro in a carefree way as if it didn't matter', I'd be fine with that. > But instead, your writings (in particular cases) go out of your way to > _specifically discourage_ people from bothering to use package > management. > > Worse, your essays portray the Linux admin's choice as a dichotomy > between badly designed distro packages on the one hand and appropriately > tailored locally compiled tarballs on the other -- as if it were > impossible to use backports.org packages, unofficial repo packages, or > locally built packages the admin constructs based on tarball > compilation. Hell yeah. I have a completely opposite view: if a piece of software hasn't been packaged, it's most likely because it is crap -- otherwise someone would bother to do the work. And, usually upstream developers know how to deal with the particular problem their software is made for, but have no idea how to integrate it with the rest of the system. Most of a packager's work is beating snowflakes into something that's policy compliant. For example, upstreams tend to think they're exempt from the FHS because their software is special. Then, you have "convenience" copies of libraries -- often with a bogus patch rejected by upstream of that library. Then there's static linking. Or -march=native or -mavx65536vbmi because that "makes the program faster". Build systems in general are a horror show -- especially platform detection that thinks it's smarter than the compiler. Or, config file handling. Or... You can build from a tarball on your home toy box. It simply doesn't scale once you try to deploy that onto a bunch of servers -- even within just your organization. A distribution is far more complex than that. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Laws we want back: Poland, Dz.U. 1921 nr.30 poz.177 (also Dz.U. ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ 1920 nr.11 poz.61): Art.2: An official, guilty of accepting a gift ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ or another material benefit, or a promise thereof, [in matters ⠈⠳⣄ relevant to duties], shall be punished by death by shooting. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] ..our Devuan packaging policy is different how?, decides guidelines etc, was: I'm not part of the Debian project
On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 10:00:13 +0100, Arnt wrote in message
<20171029100013.25b36b1a@d44>:
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 09:41:46 +0100, Arnt wrote in message
> <20171029094146.5b8f8508@d44>:
>
> > On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 23:32:32 -0700, Rick wrote in message
> > <20171029063232.gd30...@linuxmafia.com>:
> >
> > > Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> > >
> > > > I don't know how to do the preceding, and I'm forever
> > > > prioritizing other things above learning it.
> > >
> > > Well, if you have a spare hour some time, try debhelper[1]
> >
> > ...and start writing a tutorial as you learn, we're here to help
> > (coach, bug-test etc) you thru writing the tutorial. :o)
> >
> > ..having you "just follow" Rick's advice means we have one more
> > .deb packager, "making" you write a tutorial, makes you a good
> > .deb packager, aaand, gives you an excellent recipe pointer to
> > shove down e.g. my throat. ;o)
> >
> > > [1]
> > > https://faceted.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/howto-build-a-trivial-debian-package-with-dh_make/
> > >
> >
> > ..I'd be more verbose, e.g.:
> > #/bin/bash
> >
> > mkdir -vp foo-0.1
> > cd foo-0.1
> > dh_make --createorig --indep # ..this should prompt you to hit enter
> >
> > mkdir -vp essentials
> > mv -v debian/{changelog,compat,rules,control} essentials
> > rm -vr debian
> > mv -v essentials debian # ..here I gather we want
> > "debian/essentials"?
> >
> > echo './example-src/* ./' > debian/foo.install
> > mkdir -vp example-src/usr/share/example
> > touch example-src/usr/share/example/file # ..this should create
> > # the empty (git source?) file (or file tree) to be installed
> >
> > dpkg-buildpackage -uc -tc -rfakeroot
> > dpkg --contents ../foo_0.1-1_all.deb # ..now you can inspect
> > # the resulting Devuan package
> > #
> > #
> > # Pay attention to Leif's note here: "For reasons I haven’t
> > # investigated, if you try to put files under /usr/local/ this
> > # recipe won’t work.
> > # (There are probably other directories this will also not work
> > # for; /usr/share and /var are all that I’ve tried successfully.)
> >
> >
> > ..not yet tested, I too have questions. :o)
>
> ...and one answer, found in the 3'rd comment:
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch08s03.html.en#id595726
..if I could assume "Devuan Policy == Debian Policy", the next steps
I would recommend, would be: ...
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/build.en.html#git-buildpackage
and https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/
..now, given "Devuan Policy != Debian Policy", we have:
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1110#p1110
..other than "no-systemd" etc, how does our Devuan packaging policy
differ from Debian's packaging policy?
..my preference is complying to our own Devuan packaging policy
whenever I post tutorial or recipe etc ideas.
--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I'm not part of the Debian project
On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 10:32:29 +0100 Adam Borowski wrote: > And, usually upstream > developers know how to deal with the particular problem their > software is made for, but have no idea how to integrate it with the > rest of the system. The preceding sentence exactly describes me, which is why I'm seeking a Devuan packaging expert as a partner in creating the Devuan runit package. SteveT Steve Litt October 2017 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] First steps on possible runit package
Hi all, I wrote to runit author Gerrit Pape about his vision of how runit should be implemented, and also the supervision list with a couple questions. Hopefully, when I get a partner to do the actual packaging, it will go fairly quickly. SteveT Steve Litt October 2017 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] First steps on possible runit package
On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 06:00:35AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > I wrote to runit author Gerrit Pape about his vision of how runit > should be implemented, and also the supervision list with a couple > questions. Hopefully, when I get a partner to do the actual packaging, > it will go fairly quickly. Why not start with Dmitry Bogatov's work? -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Laws we want back: Poland, Dz.U. 1921 nr.30 poz.177 (also Dz.U. ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ 1920 nr.11 poz.61): Art.2: An official, guilty of accepting a gift ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ or another material benefit, or a promise thereof, [in matters ⠈⠳⣄ relevant to duties], shall be punished by death by shooting. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xrandr on Ascii for two displays
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 at 20:14:43 +0300 Lars Noodén wrote: > I have two displays, one built-in to a laptop and another external, and > am not able to get any signal to the external one. The same arrangement > works fine with other distros. I've tried with the display managers for > both XFCE4 and LXQt, as well as xrandr. > > For example, I have tried the following, but the external screen stays > black: > > $ xrandr --output eDP-1 --auto \ > --output HDMI-1 --auto \ > --same-as eDP-1 > > $ uname -sr; lsb_release -rd > Linux 4.9.0-4-amd64 > Description:Devuan GNU/Linux 2.0 (ascii) > Release:2.0 > > What should I be looking for with xrandr to cause a usable signal? Check the output of xrandr --query for pointers. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xrandr on Ascii for two displays
On 10/29/2017 01:01 PM, Alessandro Selli wrote: [snip]> Check the output of xrandr --query for pointers. Thanks. I can see that eDP-1 and HDMI-1 are both connected. $ xrandr --query | grep -E '^[[:alpha:]]' Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 3840 x 1080, maximum 8192 x 8192 eDP-1 connected primary 1920x1080+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 290mm x 170mm DP-1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) HDMI-1 connected 1920x1080+1920+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 531mm x 299mm HDMI-2 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) DP-2 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) HDMI-3 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) DP-3 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xrandr on Ascii for two displays
On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 at 13:37:00 +0200 Lars Noodén wrote: > On 10/29/2017 01:01 PM, Alessandro Selli wrote: > [snip]> Check the output of xrandr --query for pointers. > > Thanks. I can see that eDP-1 and HDMI-1 are both connected. > > $ xrandr --query | grep -E '^[[:alpha:]]' > Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 3840 x 1080, maximum 8192 x 8192 > eDP-1 connected primary 1920x1080+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis > y axis) 290mm x 170mm > DP-1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) > HDMI-1 connected 1920x1080+1920+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y > axis) 531mm x 299mm > HDMI-2 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) > DP-2 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) > HDMI-3 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) > DP-3 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) $ xrandr --output eDP-1 --auto \ --output HDMI-1 --auto \ --same-as eDP-1 You want HDMI-1 to be --same-as eDP-1, however I see HDMI-1 is set at 1920x1080+1920+0 and eDP-1 at 1920x1080+0+0, that is HDMI-1 is set --right-of eDP-1. Try other placement options, if nothing works try setting HDMI-1 --off and then back --auto or --mode 1920x1080 --same-as eDP-1. Just yesterday I had a like issue on an HDMI external projector at a conference in a local University; I tried all sort of settings until it worked, but I do not remember what was that finally worked and why other settings did not. :-/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Getting to know Chris Lamb
* On 2017 28 Oct 18:36 -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > I was just looking at some old threads over at DUF and ran across this: > > https://www.debian.org/vote/2017/platforms/lamby > > Haven't given it a thorough reading but what I did see I found interesting . > . . Thanks for that. I've not kept track of Debian's politics for about a year so Chris' name did not create an association in mind--probably a good thing! I hope he succeeds in getting the new maintainer process more friendly. I may have entered the process years ago, but I don't live close to a group of Debian Developers nor do I work in an industry that would facilitate me going to their conferences, etc. I understand Debian's chain of trust, but for me it was a non-starter. It is problematic because Debian Policy does not permit newer packages to enter Stable after the freeze. A case in point was the trustedqsl package used by amateur radio operators. IIRC, this was just before Jessie (maybe Wheezy, no matter) went Stable. The ARRL (the organization that requires use of trustedqsl to upload log data to its Logbook of The World Web site), mandated the use of a newer version that rendered the version in then Debian Stable obsolete. A ham running Debian Stable had to make a choice, either compile trustedqsl from source or dist-upgrade to either Testing or Unstable to get a new enough version. I filed a bug, but that was moot as precious policy would have been violated. Yesterday another amateur radio package, WSJT-X, released its latest version, 1.8.0. The version in our Jessie repository, 1.1, is far too old to be useful. So I built it from source and installed it to /usr/local. It builds and runs just fine on Jessie libraries. But there is little point making a .deb as it's "untrusted". Meanwhile, I jumped in a offered to update and maintain several out of date Slackbuilds scripts hosted at http://slackbuilds.org for Slackware 14.2. No hassle, just make the contribution/pull request, let the maintainers examine the scripts/changes, and away we go. As a maintainer of an upstream software package for amateur radio, I get patches all the time. I look them over and apply them or make minor corrections or work with the contributor to get the patch where it should be. It seems to me that Debian could adopt something similar that rather than maintainers that upload binary packages, the Debian specific scripts are uploaded, examined, and committed and then the binary packages are built by Debian's trusted infrastructure. Also, when it can be demonstrated that an out of date end user application package is harming the usefulness of Stable for a given task that a policy exception should be made that allows an update, not just send users over to the backports repository either, which requires that a DD be interested enough to create the backported package. After 18 years of using De*an, I've encountered some warts that should be addressed. This is why I think that derivatives sometimes get more attention as Chris laments. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] First steps on possible runit package
On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 11:38:39 +0100 Adam Borowski wrote: > On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 06:00:35AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I wrote to runit author Gerrit Pape about his vision of how runit > > should be implemented, and also the supervision list with a couple > > questions. Hopefully, when I get a partner to do the actual > > packaging, it will go fairly quickly. > > Why not start with Dmitry Bogatov's work? Assuming Gerrit Pape doesn't hate the way Dmitry did it, that might be a good idea. Is there a way I could install Dmitry's package or packages directly on Devuan? Also, while I have your attention, all you guys talk about two different packages: runit and runit-init. I assume runit is the supervisor and runit-init is PID1 plus the RC files, but of course I could be wrong. Any education would be great. One more thing. I *VERY* strongly believe that installing one init system should not deinstall another init system. Seeing as we'll eventually have working packages for runit, s6, daemontools-encore, busybox init and who knows what else, there must be some early design to prevent them from filename clashing. For instance, using /var/service for all of them is a bad idea. /etc/sv is another possible clash if it's used for daemontools-encore and/or s6. Anyway, if I do this thing, I'm going to do it in a way enabling alternate inits to exist on the computer in much the same way and for much the same reason as we're allowed and encouraged to keep multiple kernels. SteveT Steve Litt October 2017 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Getting to know Chris Lamb
On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 11:05:57 -0500 Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2017 28 Oct 18:36 -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > I was just looking at some old threads over at DUF and ran across > > this: > > > > https://www.debian.org/vote/2017/platforms/lamby > > > > Haven't given it a thorough reading but what I did see I found > > interesting . . . > > Thanks for that. I've not kept track of Debian's politics for about a > year so Chris' name did not create an association in mind--probably a > good thing! > > I hope he succeeds in getting the new maintainer process more > friendly. [snip specific instances in which Debian policies got in the way] > > After 18 years of using De*an, I've encountered some warts that should > be addressed. This is why I think that derivatives sometimes get more > attention as Chris laments. I'd add one more reason. Did everyone notice that neither Chris Lamb nor his opponent give the slightest mention to the systemd fiasco? At least a year of bad feelings. Loss of some of their best and brightest. First ever mention, as far as I know, of the Debian Community as something toxic. The systemd decision process seemed to many an agenda driven roughstep over democracy. I still lurk on Debian-User, and subjectively to me it seems very dumbed down: What you'd expect of a Ubuntu mailing list: Not the bright and active tech leadership that Debian once represented. Debian's conduct of the systemd fiasco cost them dearly and made Debian a lesser brand: Perhaps an analog of the Roman Empire in 401 AD. And yet neither candidate for Head DD mentions it. Just an extension of the Debian "we don't want to hear about it" stand that's been so popular ever since the systemd-avoiders left Debian for better distros. But "we don't want to hear about it" doesn't work. I could give many examples, but they'd all be offtopic political. Debian will forever be tamping down breakout flames of "systemd sucks" from their own ranks until they come to terms with the decision they made and the techniques they used to arrive at that decision. I'm not blaming Chris Lamb for this: The entire remaining Debian community is infected. In my opinion Debian won't begin to improve their lost relevancy and credibility until they undergo a complete Truth and Reconcilliation that includes the kangaroo court decision, the GR "nothing" alternative shuffle, the driving away of those believing in interchangeable parts and parsimonious, need to know simple interfaces. Debian's relationship to Redhat, Gnome, and other monied entities must be investigated. Only after such a Truth and Reconcilliation, which almost certainly will lead to a committment to forever keep open the possibility of alternative inits, will Debian begin to regain its former status. SteveT Steve Litt October 2017 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I'm not part of the Debian project
Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > Hell yeah. I have a completely opposite view: if a piece of software hasn't > been packaged, it's most likely because it is crap -- otherwise someone > would bother to do the work. And, usually upstream developers know how to > deal with the particular problem their software is made for, but have no > idea how to integrate it with the rest of the system. There is much, much to this. I understand that much of Gerrit Pape's work in making Debian package dbndns (updated djbdns) is politely countermanding peculiar DJB software-architecture decisions, for example (not least, Dan's jihad against FHS). As another example, I think Laurent Bercot's s6 suite and s6-rc init are pretty good, but fear that exactly such pain-in-the-ass obstacles as you list lurk for packagers. (I could be impolitic and point out that a recurring theme in the 'gratuitously making things difficult for distributions' area is 'influenced by Dan and daemontools'.) > You can build from a tarball on your home toy box. It simply doesn't scale > once you try to deploy that onto a bunch of servers -- even within just your > organization. A distribution is far more complex than that. There's room for both, though -- and for middle grounds. I'm deeply sympathetic to Steve's view of 'Screw all these problems with distro packages. I'm going to just make it locally.' I may end up doing that in order to run my next-generation home server on mdev. But I'll probably at least make a .deb out of it. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Getting to know Chris Lamb
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > I'd add one more reason. Did everyone notice that neither Chris Lamb > nor his opponent give the slightest mention to the systemd fiasco? At > least a year of bad feelings. Said contention ran from 2012 to 2014. A quick check of /usr/bin/cal will reveal we're almost done with _2017_ (not a moment too soon). > I still lurk on Debian-User I notice debian-user past trauma still loom larges for you and sundry others. Never had any use for that mailing list, myself, and I _do_ wonder if you-plural ever fully grasped that debian-user is a sideshow, something of a disregarded ghetto for the Project. Debian's discussion among Debian developers, the people who, with the Project's technical bureaucrats run the show and have the voting franchise, are overwhelmingly elsewhere, on debian-developer and a number of other specialised technical forums. Not on debian-user. Because why would it be? I didn't notice the debian-user ruckus about systemd until long afterwards (because I don't read that list), but, when I did, my reaction was 'SRSLY? You guys thought a loud advocacy campaign, predominated by non-DDs, would influence the Project's political process, and moreover that this would centre around a campaign conducted on the debian-USER mailing list?' This struck me as woefully ignorant about the workings of, well, just about everything in that picture. And here you are still, trying to refight that, and surprised the current DPL didn't think to mention it. Truth and Reconciliation (like in Rwanda)? You know, Steve, decaf tastes just about as good. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] First steps on possible runit package
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > Also, while I have your attention, all you guys talk about two > different packages: runit and runit-init. Upstream distinction, not distro. runit-init is a binary executable that can be the first process. Or, if you prefer, you can use your choice of other, different init process. There's also supervisor code in the form of programs 'sv' and 'runsv', plus some other stuff. (Disclaimer: I've only skim-read a bunch of Web-page coverage.) A distro package based on upstream _might_ furnish everything. If I can make a general comment: You are starting to encounter the complex bits of designing and maintaining distro policies, including the bits you and Adam separately have mentioned. All points made are well with noting, including yours about wondering how to best ensure that Devuan users opting for one init system package can smoothly change to a different one. This is where you and the Project will need to work out and document policy, and then collectively make sure it's followed. Fixing file/directory namespace collisions is just the start of that. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] First steps on possible runit package
On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 12:11:08PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > One more thing. I *VERY* strongly believe that installing one init > system should not deinstall another init system. You mean, systemd vs systemd-sysv, sysvinit vs sysvinit-core? -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Laws we want back: Poland, Dz.U. 1921 nr.30 poz.177 (also Dz.U. ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ 1920 nr.11 poz.61): Art.2: An official, guilty of accepting a gift ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ or another material benefit, or a promise thereof, [in matters ⠈⠳⣄ relevant to duties], shall be punished by death by shooting. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks
https://osseu17.sched.com/event/ByYt/replace-your-exploit-ridden-firmware-with-linux-ronald-minnich-google Jochen ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks
On 10/30/2017 07:59 AM, J. Fahrner wrote: > https://osseu17.sched.com/event/ByYt/replace-your-exploit-ridden-firmware-with-linux-ronald-minnich-google Thanks. The presentation is online, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iffTJ1vPCSo&index=65&list=PLbzoR-pLrL6pISWAq-1cXP4_UZAyRtesk /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
