Re: [DNG] resolved

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:54:31 +0900
Simon Walter  wrote:

> On 06/07/2016 03:47 PM, Jaromil wrote:
> > sorry for abstracting the topic, but I definitely see a pattern in 
> > many contexts. I could bring forward more arguments on why this 
> > happens in the technology industry at a time in which material 
> > production techniques reached an innovation peak after 2 decades of 
> > incredible acceleration.  
> 
> I am interested in your (and everyone's) musings on the subject. 

Me too.

> In
> my circle, it is heresy. I suppose I am seeped in the corporate
> culture and find open discussions invigorating.

I'm all for corporations making money. I get paid, why shouldn't they?

But what if I owned a bicycle shop, and furnished bicycle thieves
with bolt cutters and five bucks for every bike they boosted, so that
the recently ripped off would buy a new bike from my shop? That's
basically what Redhat's doing: Destroying Linux to make their training
and consulting more valuable.

I'm all for people making an honest buck. Nothing honest about Redhat.
Which brings us back to what Jaromil said: There's a lot of for-profit
destruction going on these days. 

> 
> I do think (was it Mr. Litt that said of) Redhat has a part to play.
> How much of that the you es ay spy agencies were involved is
> speculation. I'd love it if some info was leaked. It would cause
> everyone to be much more critical, think twice, and review code more.

Would the motivation for the spy agencies be easier insertion of
backdoors and exploitable bugs?
 
SteveT

Steve Litt
June 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting: Why Bother?
http://www.troubleshooters.com/twb
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] resolved

[Simon Hobson]

Steve Litt  wrote:

> I'm all for corporations making money. I get paid, why shouldn't they?

Indeed. I find it "interesting" to hear some people suggesting they shouldn't 
have to pay for anything - and think that if anyone suggested they shouldn't 
get paid for whatever they do/produce then they might have a different view !
Also bear in mind that a lot of what is "free" is only free and there because 
"someone else" actually paid for it - just look at how many of the major 
projects are led/staffed by people employed by various technology companies to 
produce the "free" stuff.

Eg, while we may deride RH (especially over SystemD), it's true that their 
paying customers do indirectly pay for some of the stuff we use for "free". I 
personally know someone employed by them to work on virtualisation - IIRC he 
works on improvements to things like Qemu.

Of course, we know that a lot of people work on this in their own time - but we 
assume that they are still either employed, or getting a pension, or getting 
some other form of support in order to pay the bills, keep a roof over their 
head, and put food on the table.

> But what if I owned a bicycle shop, and furnished bicycle thieves
> with bolt cutters and five bucks for every bike they boosted, so that
> the recently ripped off would buy a new bike from my shop? That's
> basically what Redhat's doing: Destroying Linux to make their training
> and consulting more valuable.

That does seem a good analogy.

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] resolved

[Didier Kryn]

Le 07/06/2016 10:36, Steve Litt a écrit :

>In
>my circle, it is heresy. I suppose I am seeped in the corporate
>culture and find open discussions invigorating.

I'm all for corporations making money. I get paid, why shouldn't they?

But what if I owned a bicycle shop, and furnished bicycle thieves
with bolt cutters and five bucks for every bike they boosted, so that
the recently ripped off would buy a new bike from my shop? That's
basically what Redhat's doing: Destroying Linux to make their training
and consulting more valuable.
Pottering-and-The-Red-Hats drive their buzyness-model on an edge. 
They're making money from their own software which is built on top of 
free software. Many companies contribute for free to Linux because they 
consider it's good for them to have a high quality free OS to run on 
their products or to run their products on. But Redhat is the first, 
probably not the one which gets the most money out of Linux (I bet 
Google gets first), but the one which contributes most to Linux.


The following link gives statistics of who contributes to the Linux 
kernel: 
http://www.linuxfoundation.org/sites/main/files/publications/whowriteslinux.pdf 
. Redhat is the first corporate contributor with 12% of all changes in 
the kernel, and the first reviewer of kernel changes, with 36%, before 
Google, Novell and the total of non-corporate. This is a very strong 
implication, mostly for the benefit of all Linux users.


This puts them in a dangerous position of power. I'm not sure, 
after all, if they really intended to hijack Linux-Gnu. If they really 
want to do that, they might loose many contributions and find themselves 
alone, in the same situation as Apple and Microsoft. I'm not sure this 
is what they want. They may well have just made a mistake and still be 
unable to see it.


Didier

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] resolved

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016, Steve Litt wrote:

> I'm all for corporations making money. I get paid, why shouldn't they?

sure, this is sort out of the scope of the discussion. work should be
paid as much as possible and sustainability is a feature, not a bug :)

I'm even ready to understand some discounts on quality when
reasonable, for the sake of time and prompt delivery, especially when
things are called with their name (a beta is a beta, better cautious
as we are than bold and fast in calling it stable).

but said that, I do have a problem with marketing hype and smoke in
eyes. Which is pretty much how most corporations communicate outside:
they just advertise their products, they lack respect for boundaries
and other players. sadly, startup are inheriting this behaviour.

however, back to us. I still admire RedHat for having built a company
of considerable size, having provided paid work for many developers
and having shipped reliable solutions to the public in the past
decades. So here maybe me and Steve and others disagree a bit.

what i'm "silently ranting" about is the rethoric of innovation,
especially when merged to aggressively profit driven strategies and
marketing, the "fast food" way.

If you look in the big and new corporations today you'll find out that
technically aware people who feel a social responsibility for what
they are doing are less and less. The vast majority of employees are
(very young) sales, stuffed in chicken factory setups for marketing
all sorts of ads and nonsense. Time to market is shrunk as much as the
quality of products is. "Legacy" customers are disregarded in disgust
in most occasions and all sorts of dreams for "easy money" are driving
a sometimes blind adoption of products even before they are stable,
see Docker's wrapping of LXC for instance, which is as idiotic as
succesful in the world we live in
http://homolog.us/blogs/blog/2015/09/22/is-docker-for-suckers/

so well what I'm arguing is not that the corporate sub-culture should
be ostracized because "evil". I seriously think noone should ever
think or speak in reductionist terms of "good" and "evil".

I'm arguing that as of today, through a slide of 2 or 3 decades, we
are witnessing the necrotization of what it was originally indended as
"industry", with choices which are very poor and strategies that are
continuously tainted by marketing hype and lobbies. Even the academic
world which should be the last bastion for neutrality and objectivity
is falling into this landslide, even bribed to do so (see pharmaceutic
industry).

Can this be fixed by a campaign for industries which "do no evil"?
I doubt so

How do I feel we can fix this? well the answer is maybe too long to
write now and contains still many doubts and incertainities.  However
at Dyne.org we like to think of ourselves as the "slow food" of
software and Devuan, straight after dyne:bolic, is one of the best
cooked meals we've ever facilitated so far. Big up to Franco and
CenturionDan whom I consider to be chef and sous-chef of the menu we
are feasting on today in this fine and well mannered restaurant.


ciao
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] devuan installer and overheating

[emninger]

Am Tue, 07 Jun 2016 08:33:08 +
schrieb Simon Walter :

> I have not noticed this. What are the models of your notebook
> computers?
> 
> You could do everyone a favour and debug it a little. Do you know
> which process was spinning the CPU?

a Samsung NP535U3C (amd processor and graphics)

a Sony Vaio VPCF23S1E (Intel Core i7-2670QM (-HT-MCP-) NVIDIA GF108M)

It always happened when it came to install the software tasks (desktop,
printserver, etc) - apt i'd presume. The fans are going crazy. At first
i thought it might be a problem related to the amd/ati graphics which
unfortunately do not work fine with the free driver. But now, i
realized this also on the Sony Vaio which has nothing to do with amd.
But indeed, on the Vaio it was a qemu installation - but otoh, just to
check, i compiled libre office from source and the machine never got
hotter than 60°. Installing Jessie in qemu the top heat was 87°!

(How can i debug the installation?)
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] resolved

[Dan Purgert]

Jim Murphy wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 2:23 PM, Klaus Hartnegg  
> wrote:
> > All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of things not to 
> > do.
> >
> > https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html
> >
> > Systemd manages to shoot itself in the foot, and in the elbow, and trigger 
> > a timebomb, all with one single bullet.
> 
> Did anyone follow the "systemd blob" link(within the above
> mentioned link) and read any other points including -logind?
> 
> This apparently prompted a bug[1] on Debian that turned into a
> somewhat long discussion within the bug messages.  It appears
> that Debian wanted to turn on, as default, the clean-up feature on
> logout. If I read it correctly it would kill background processes
> when you log out.  This would result in killing, among other
> things, a detached tmux process or a long running background
> processes that in the past would have remained running.

Prompted discussions in a few other places I frequent.  It's really
funny to see the systemd supporters go "b-b-b-but you can just change
it", without grasping the concept that having it default to "kill all
the things" could very well have considerable cost in terms of "time
wasted".

-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| 


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] resolved

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 12:28:00PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:

[cut]

> 
> This puts them in a dangerous position of power. I'm not sure, after
> all, if they really intended to hijack Linux-Gnu. If they really want to do
> that, they might loose many contributions and find themselves alone, in the
> same situation as Apple and Microsoft. I'm not sure this is what they want.
> They may well have just made a mistake and still be unable to see it.
> 

I believe that no corporation will be able to enforce its power on the
Free Software community, unless the community itself lends such power
to corporations. A very risky way of giving power to corporations is
by embracing the post-modern "trend" of using "more permissive
licences" than the GPL/LGPL for any kind of projects.

Now, let's make it clear once and for all that I don't have absolutely
anything against non-copyleft free software licenses (we all use tons
of non-copyleft sw every day, and that's great), but it is undeniable
that a software released under copyleft is much more resilient to the
influences of any external "power" than a software that can be freely
incorporated in proprietary products without any legal bound.


Despite being originally intended as a "guerrilla weapon" (and RMS and
the others were very careful at designing it), copyleft is indeed the
only way to keep free software free, forever. Corporations can come,
inject whatever they want, drive any project on whichever path suits
them, force any rubbish down whatever distro or environment they
like. But if the software they work on is *bound to remain free* by
law, the "power of the fork (tm)" will save it from being put in any
cage. They will have no alternative, but share what they have done,
and put their work under the scrutiny of the community.

Naturally, the situation today is much more complex than a simple
dialectic confrontation between copyleft and non-copyleft, but as a
community we should look back at the good ways we already have to
safeguard ourselves and our software. And copyleft is still today one
of the most powerful "weapons" we possess, despite they want to
convince everybody that it is more "convenient" to not use it for any
"serious" commercial product...

Several evil creatures are lurking out there, in the dark. Please do
not open the door at the first knock-knock, if you wish to avoid bad
surprises...

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] How to acknowledge ported version of Open Source program?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:31:31 +0900, Simon wrote in message 
<57566a43.4050...@gikaku.com>:

> On 06/07/2016 02:51 PM, Hughe Chung wrote:
> > I've been porting an Open Source program to Python 3.4 for my
> > personal use. The original source code written by C language in
> > 2005 has MIT license.
> >
> > ...
> >
> > I'm planning to release it under GPLv3 soon. I will definitely 
> > acknowledge original author on the license but don't want to
> > include the ancient source code in my program.
> >
> 
> I think it depends on how much you copied and how polite you are. You 
> can say "inspired by", but if your code is structured the same and it 
> really is a port, I think you might want to word it differently.
> Though I don't think you need to include such a notice in your source
> code. If you are naming it the same and calling it a Python version,
> then maybe coordinate with the original author. That's just my
> opinion. I am not a lawyer.

..11 years with Groklaw.net has thaught me to be a little harsher; 
you cannot "port" a program written under one license (MIT), under
another license, unless that first license has language that allows 
such "relicensing" under other licensing terms.

..you _can_ convince the original author he should license his work
under both the MIT and GPLv3 (I would say "v2-and-later") if you
contact him and tell him why GPLv2-and-later etc are better than 
e.g. the MIT license terms.

..and you can take your inspiration from anyone elses ideas whenever
you write your own work under whichever license you pick, copyright
laws protects the written etc expressions of ideas, not the ideas
themselves, which is why you _can_ write your own program as a drop-in
replacement to the original C program you once thought of to try port.

..to protect ideas, you need to patent them, which may be done in
combinations with copyright protections and contractual terms in
e.g. any canned EULA worm pit combination.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] resolved

[Rainer Weikusat]

Klaus Hartnegg  writes:
> All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of things not to do.
>
> https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html


Hmm ... while this is certainly the usual reimplementation no one to
whom d-bus integration of everything isn't critical needs for
anything and the idea to turn this into another continously running
process is not very sensible, how does this feature-/ behaviour-wise
compare to the existing stub resolver in the C library? In particular,
stub resolvers always rely on something else in order to do the actual
heavy lifting.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] resolved

[Simon Hobson]

KatolaZ  wrote:

> Despite being originally intended as a "guerrilla weapon" (and RMS and
> the others were very careful at designing it), copyleft is indeed the
> only way to keep free software free, forever.

Indeed.
I've heard a few descriptions of RMS - most of them uncomplimentary. Having met 
him, I can see why many people dislike him - he does come across very much as 
the stereotypical geek with no social skills (mind you, me writing that does 
involve a certain amount of "pot, kettle, black" - fill in the rest !)
I can understand his POV, though I'm very much in the pragmatism camp and use a 
mix of free and closed software. But, I respect his position - and I respect 
the fact that without people like him, we would not have the freedoms we have 
now. That's important to remember.


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] resolved

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Simon Hobson writes:
I can understand his POV, though I'm very much in the 
pragmatism camp and use a mix of free and closed software. But, 
I respect his position - and I respect the fact that without 
people like him, we would not have the freedoms we have now. 
That's important to remember.


That's a fact?

I've met Linus, I've spoken to Jordan K. Hubbard on the phone a few times, 
and I have run into Jim Gettys and Thomas Roell at conferences. They all 
seemed pleasant enough, not at all like RMS.


Arnt

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] resolved

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 05:31:18PM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote:
> KatolaZ  wrote:
> 
> > Despite being originally intended as a "guerrilla weapon" (and RMS and
> > the others were very careful at designing it), copyleft is indeed the
> > only way to keep free software free, forever.
> 
> Indeed.
> I've heard a few descriptions of RMS - most of them uncomplimentary. Having 
> met him, I can see why many people dislike him - he does come across very 
> much as the stereotypical geek with no social skills (mind you, me writing 
> that does involve a certain amount of "pot, kettle, black" - fill in the rest 
> !)
> I can understand his POV, though I'm very much in the pragmatism camp and use 
> a mix of free and closed software. But, I respect his position - and I 
> respect the fact that without people like him, we would not have the freedoms 
> we have now. That's important to remember.
> 

My point was not at all about RMS. My point was about copyleft. Now we
can divert the discussion as far as we want, but I was expressing *my*
point of view, not the point of view of RMS.

And my point is that we already have a powerful weapon to use against
any power that wants to give a too-tight-hug to the free software
community, and that weapon is called *copyleft* (not RMS, which would
be quite a cumbersome weapon to wield anyway, given the mass involved
:)).


HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Bug in live-installer

[aitor_czr]

Hi all,

On 23/08/15 08:16, aitor_czr  wrote:

Hi all,

Installing live-images, the process becames unstable depending (i 
suppose) on the size of the filesystem.squashfs file. The following 
hack solves this issue:


https://gitlab.com/aitor_czr/live-installer/commit/cf89c8d49196cc92d183640bd1697599bdcaed99

I'm not the author of the hack. The author of the hack is Philip 
Newborough, aka Corenominal (CrunchBang). Honestly, i didn't analyze 
the code.


But it works.

Aitor.


I just uploaded a live image of Devuan:

http://gnuinos.org/devuan/

This image is(or aims to be) *exactly*the same than:

https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_beta/devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_amd64_CD.iso

All the packages (*.debs and *.udebs) are official packages of Devuan 
with the exception of live-installer (read abovemy old thread "Bug in 
live-installer")




@Centurion:

I also uploaded another image containing the official version of 
live-installer:


http://gnuinos.org/devuan/unhacked/

This second one fails. As you know, you can see the error message 
yumping to the tty4 console.


Cheers,

  Aitor.

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Bug in live-installer

[aitor_czr]

On 08/06/16 00:24, aitor_czr wrote:

As you know, you can see the error message yumping to the tty4 console.


jumping:)
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] resolved

[Simon Walter]

On 06/07/2016 06:59 PM, Simon Hobson wrote:

Steve Litt  wrote:


I'm all for corporations making money. I get paid, why shouldn't they?

Indeed. I find it "interesting" to hear some people suggesting they shouldn't 
have to pay for anything - and think that if anyone suggested they shouldn't get paid for 
whatever they do/produce then they might have a different view !
Also bear in mind that a lot of what is "free" is only free and there because "someone 
else" actually paid for it - just look at how many of the major projects are led/staffed by people 
employed by various technology companies to produce the "free" stuff.


Hold on. I must interject.

Not all programmers are equal. Some are so skilled that to write up a 
piece of software and maintain it just for themselves, is not as 
difficult as it is for someone like me. If a hobbyist or professional 
cannot get the parts s/he needs because the information on the package 
is incorrect in some way, then some resort to DIY. It is this group of 
DIY hobbyists and professionals and their vision gave us open source 
software.


Others in other replies have mentioned some of the pioneers. I respect 
and admire them and their fortitude.


It doesn't much to do with producing something directly for sale. The 
motivation to produce superior parts might be to enable one to do ones 
job better, but those parts were not originally for sale. Redhat is 
taking those and selling support for them. Great. Nice. Good. But then 
when they start the systemd BS, all the comments about them having 
greedy ulterior motives start to make sense. The freeloaders will never 
care. After all, they are comfortable with the theft of software.




Eg, while we may deride RH (especially over SystemD), it's true that their paying 
customers do indirectly pay for some of the stuff we use for "free". I 
personally know someone employed by them to work on virtualisation - IIRC he works on 
improvements to things like Qemu.


Yes. My brother works for RH and feeds his children with that money. I 
still don't care for RH. I never have and never will. RPM hell may have 
been intentional. Just like MS doesn't fix horrible bugs because they 
make good money off of support.


Knowing someone in an organization doesn't make it a good organization.



Of course, we know that a lot of people work on this in their own time - but we 
assume that they are still either employed, or getting a pension, or getting 
some other form of support in order to pay the bills, keep a roof over their 
head, and put food on the table.


My first paragraph applies. Only freeloaders are asking for a handout 
and those people do not matter to us anyway. Money is no justification 
for nefarious action.


My biggest gripe with systemd: How many man hours have been wasted and 
will be wasted. There is an lack of wisdom in that project.


Simon
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] resolved

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 11:28:32 +0900, Simon wrote in message 
<575782d0.5080...@gikaku.com>:

> My biggest gripe with systemd: How many man hours have been wasted
> and will be wasted. There is an lack of wisdom in that project.

..hugely.

..I only partially agree, though, if the idea behind it is catch the 
next Edward Snowdons, or if Edward Snowdon is the man behind it, I 
would see a lot of political and military etc Machiavellian wisdom
behind it, but never any technological etc visdom.  It's like nukes,
it's considered wise to have your own if the enemy has his aimed at
you, either way, you do not wanna have a cranky cranked up nuke in 
your laptop.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] devuan installer and overheating

[Simon Walter]

On 06/07/2016 07:38 PM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

Am Tue, 07 Jun 2016 08:33:08 +
schrieb Simon Walter :


I have not noticed this. What are the models of your notebook
computers?

You could do everyone a favour and debug it a little. Do you know
which process was spinning the CPU?

a Samsung NP535U3C (amd processor and graphics)

a Sony Vaio VPCF23S1E (Intel Core i7-2670QM (-HT-MCP-) NVIDIA GF108M)

It always happened when it came to install the software tasks (desktop,
printserver, etc) - apt i'd presume. The fans are going crazy. At first
i thought it might be a problem related to the amd/ati graphics which
unfortunately do not work fine with the free driver. But now, i
realized this also on the Sony Vaio which has nothing to do with amd.
But indeed, on the Vaio it was a qemu installation - but otoh, just to
check, i compiled libre office from source and the machine never got
hotter than 60°. Installing Jessie in qemu the top heat was 87°!

(How can i debug the installation?)


Well, those are certainly powerful enough machines.

Do you have a very fast Internet connection? I would assume the fans go 
crazy, but unless your room is very hot and the machines full of dust, 
they should not crash from overheating.


Let me see...

OK first of all, at least on the version I have 
(devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4-netboot.iso) there is no graphical installer. 
So it's most likely nothing to do with your graphics chip.


Second of all, there is no top on the installer and the busybox version 
of ps that is on the installer is completely striped down.


So you may have to resort to parsing /proc to find the misbehaving 
process. That being said, I don't know if I should say that you should 
write a shell script to parse that info or if you should pick through it 
by hand. It might be simpler to cp top from a compatible installation 
and use that to find the misbehaving process.


Once you find that, then you will know basically what is going on.

Simon
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] devuan installer and overheating

[Simon Walter]

On 06/08/2016 12:15 PM, Simon Walter wrote:

On 06/07/2016 07:38 PM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

Am Tue, 07 Jun 2016 08:33:08 +
schrieb Simon Walter :


I have not noticed this. What are the models of your notebook
computers?

You could do everyone a favour and debug it a little. Do you know
which process was spinning the CPU?

a Samsung NP535U3C (amd processor and graphics)

a Sony Vaio VPCF23S1E (Intel Core i7-2670QM (-HT-MCP-) NVIDIA GF108M)

It always happened when it came to install the software tasks (desktop,
printserver, etc) - apt i'd presume. The fans are going crazy. At first
i thought it might be a problem related to the amd/ati graphics which
unfortunately do not work fine with the free driver. But now, i
realized this also on the Sony Vaio which has nothing to do with amd.
But indeed, on the Vaio it was a qemu installation - but otoh, just to
check, i compiled libre office from source and the machine never got
hotter than 60°. Installing Jessie in qemu the top heat was 87°!

(How can i debug the installation?)


Well, those are certainly powerful enough machines.

Do you have a very fast Internet connection? I would assume the fans 
go crazy, but unless your room is very hot and the machines full of 
dust, they should not crash from overheating.


Let me see...

OK first of all, at least on the version I have 
(devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4-netboot.iso) there is no graphical 
installer. So it's most likely nothing to do with your graphics chip.


OK, well, I just tried the new BETA. It does have a graphical installer. 
You might want to try the text version and see if there is any problem 
with that.


I don't know why there is a graphical installer. My opinion is that If 
it's not taking up too much developers time, then great, but it's really 
not necessary. Hopefully no one is spending much time on it.


Simon
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] resolved

[Peter Olson]

> On June 7, 2016 at 5:28 PM KatolaZ  wrote:

 [...]

> And my point is that we already have a powerful weapon to use against
> any power that wants to give a too-tight-hug to the free software
> community, and that weapon is called *copyleft* (not RMS, which would
> be quite a cumbersome weapon to wield anyway, given the mass involved
> :)).

I think my mass might be greater than RMS's, but I wouldn't qualify as a weapon.

RMS sets a standard of discourse about software freedom.

Copyleft is one instance of this, but he continues to illustrate issues that we 
might like to be concerned about.

Peter Olson
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] How to acknowledge ported version of Open Source program?

[Simon Walter]

On 06/07/2016 09:35 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:31:31 +0900, Simon wrote in message
<57566a43.4050...@gikaku.com>:


On 06/07/2016 02:51 PM, Hughe Chung wrote:

I've been porting an Open Source program to Python 3.4 for my
personal use. The original source code written by C language in
2005 has MIT license.

...

I'm planning to release it under GPLv3 soon. I will definitely
acknowledge original author on the license but don't want to
include the ancient source code in my program.


I think it depends on how much you copied and how polite you are. You
can say "inspired by", but if your code is structured the same and it
really is a port, I think you might want to word it differently.
Though I don't think you need to include such a notice in your source
code. If you are naming it the same and calling it a Python version,
then maybe coordinate with the original author. That's just my
opinion. I am not a lawyer.

..11 years with Groklaw.net has thaught me to be a little harsher;
you cannot "port" a program written under one license (MIT), under
another license, unless that first license has language that allows
such "relicensing" under other licensing terms.


The MIT license must be retained. Though it does say you can sub-license.

Since Chung's new version is written in Python, wouldn't it be 
considered a different piece of software? I don't think a re-write in 
another language of something licensed under the MIT license can even be 
considered a derivative, much less a copy.


I think a port is normally considered what you do when you recompile 
code for another architecture. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porting) 
says so. I am aware that some say, "port such and such to PHP," but I 
think that is technically incorrect.


"The term is not generally applied to the process of adapting software 
to run with less memory on the same CPU and operating system, nor is it 
applied to the rewriting of source code in a different language 
 (i.e. language 
conversion or translation)."


Of course Wikipedia is not the authority on all knowledge. ;)

Simon

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng