Re: [DNG] JWM: was Some questions re the devuan release

[Irrwahn]

On Fri, 20 May 2016 08:04:07 +1000, Ozi Traveller wrote:
> +1
> 
> As a jwm user I would really like to see it brought up to date.

Please excuse me for nitpicking here once again:

The De[bi|vu]an jwm package *is* up to date. The only thing 
that'd need to be changed (dropped in this case) is a patch 
that makes some trivial cosmetic changes to the example.jwmrc 
file. And that'd only serve to relieve the end-user of the 
burden of applying some miniscule edits to his jwmrc 
configuration file. 

I suspect it would have taken me less time to do just that, 
than it took me to type this message — if only I had the 
skills necessary to maintain a deb package. (Maybe I just 
have to dive into the domain of packaging. After all, the 
Devuan project's bus factor is still alarmingly low!)

Also note, that a fork would most likely not affect Devuan 
Jessie, since (approaching beta2) it is far too late to 
introduce non-bugfix changes, I assume.

Best regards
Urban


> On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 2:03 AM, Irrwahn  > wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 19 May 2016 17:48:33 +0200, Irrwahn Grausewitz wrote:
> 
> > Looking at the source package I cannot see a single
> > invasive patch WRT to the original source.
> 
> 
> Correction: I missed a patch when skimming over the
> package contents. I can see now what you meant by
> "Debianisms". Sorry for the confusion!
> 
> A Devuan fork of jwm would make sense then, and it'd
> be a trivial one at that.
> 
> Regards
> Urban
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Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan live images

[Didier Kryn]

Le 19/05/2016 21:14, Rainer Weikusat a écrit :

[I already strongly suspected the below but didn't want to write about
it until I had a chance to test]

THe initramfs doesn't need to include all the modules belonging to the
kernel, just those which are needed to mount the real root filesystem
(containing the remaining driver modules). This would mean all
filesystems and storage device drivers you want to support but, eg, no
networking modules (nfsroot sounds like an implausible feature for a
live image).


If you mean to run your live system with the cdrom as the root 
filesystem, then the only drivers you need during the initramfs phase 
are those needed to mount the cdrom, ie the iso9660 filesystem and the 
drivers needed to access the cdrom, which includes the USB stack in case 
of a separate cdrom drive.


 Actually, either you keep the stock kernel and put only the few 
modules you need in the initramfs, or you configure your kernel build to 
have all these drivers and filesystem statically linked and you don't 
even need an initramfs at all.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Artistic decisions - keyboard mappings

[Jaromil]

On Thu, 19 May 2016, Stephanie Daugherty wrote:

>On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 8:13 PM Joel Roth <[1]jo...@pobox.com> wrote:
>  1) CAPSLOCK key under console and X, should be mapped to Control
> 
>Capslock and control may be on dumb places on most modern keyboards, but
>above almost everything else, computers should do what the user expects.
>The key has caps lock printed on it, it should be a caps lock key unless
>the user takes action of their own accord to change that.

+1 - and I do switch caps with ctrl because of using
Emacs. nevertheless, what Stephanie says here should be set in stone
and perhaps be part of some sort of Devuan's developers guidelines.

>  2) Terminate X via Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
> 
>     Seems like an easy, useful, historic way to kill a malfunctioning X.
> 
>Strongly agree here. This was a useful function, and the decision to
>disable this by default was shortsighted. There were security arguments
>for disabling it - but for the most part, those arguments were about edge
>cases like kiosks and shared workstations.

+100 - this was an horrible change of default introduced in Xorg configuration

>  3) Disable Print key
> 
>     All my uses have been unintentional. Does anyone use it deliberately
> 
>I personally have it set to launch a screenshot tool and have found that
>to be a common configuration in a lot of desktop environments.

same here

>On the subject of people that get thrown into the console for the first
>time when something breaks, there's a lot of room to improve here. What
>I'd like to see is something reasonably consistent with the curses
>installer that provides a limited degree of handholding. Rather than throw
>people into this automatically, it should be advertised in the default
>MOTD, and it should have fallback to a simple set of prompts in case
>someone's using a broken terminal. The audiences for this are both
>complete newcomers, who know absolutely nothing beyond what little the
>/etc/issue and /etc/motd are telling them, as well as the experienced
>sysadmin who finds themselves on a system where basic facilities like
>networking are down, and needs to restore those easily.

now this gets interesting, you are envisioning a very, very useful
introductory tool and detailing its core functionalities. this is
outstanding in my eyes as the specification for a new, simple software
package someone here may want to work on. It may be done as a simple
shell script using dialog, popup on first start of a terminal with a
simple thicker to switch off.

and maybe such a tool can be a good addition to the
devuan-live-minimal by Katolaz.

> 
>- Network configuration wizard to temporarily set up Internet access,
>including bringing up a connection to a WPA2 wireless network, or
>autoconfiguring a network interface via DHCP.
>- Disk mounting wizard to easily and temporarily mount thumb drives.
>- Diagnostic wizard to view hardware details, diagnostics, and logs and to
>copy to a mounted thumb drive to look at from another, more functioning
>system
>- Access to a friendly package manager that automatically discovers
>packages on a mounted thumb drive. (this is for users that end up in this
>position because of needing packages to make the network work)
>- Tools to troubleshoot the display manager.
>- Backrup & Restore utilities
>- Easy access to tutorials and documentation.on the local system, and
>internet.
>- Easy access to appropriate new-user IRC channels.
>- A split screen environment, where documentation can be easily browsed on
>half the screen, and a terminal is available on the other half.


the best docs I know to introduce to CLI are there
http://en.flossmanuals.net/command-line/

they were also translated to spanish:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111225010153/http://translate.flossmanuals.net/CommandLineIntro_es
(only available on archive org, so worthed a place in everyone's backup)



ciao

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Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan live images

[David Hare]

Interesting experiment..

I repacked fsr's iso (otherwise unmodified) using the initrd from the
devuan-minimal-beta. That initrd was also repacked and xz-compressed
(now 8.5MB).

I booted it "findiso" (from iso file on an ext4 partition) with a
"live-hook" script, which automatically loads my specific wlan
firmware and autoconnect configs.

It booted a fully functional XFCE4 in seconds. Everything seems to
work, posting from it right now.

Sometimes I use a FAT-formatted USB similarly, sometimes with a LUKS
persistence file. Obviously, initramfs must be able to access
filesystems other than iso9660 to do that.

D

On 20 May 2016 at 09:56, Didier Kryn  wrote:
> Le 19/05/2016 21:14, Rainer Weikusat a écrit :
>>
>> [I already strongly suspected the below but didn't want to write about
>> it until I had a chance to test]
>>
>> THe initramfs doesn't need to include all the modules belonging to the
>> kernel, just those which are needed to mount the real root filesystem
>> (containing the remaining driver modules). This would mean all
>> filesystems and storage device drivers you want to support but, eg, no
>> networking modules (nfsroot sounds like an implausible feature for a
>> live image).
>
>
> If you mean to run your live system with the cdrom as the root
> filesystem, then the only drivers you need during the initramfs phase are
> those needed to mount the cdrom, ie the iso9660 filesystem and the drivers
> needed to access the cdrom, which includes the USB stack in case of a
> separate cdrom drive.
>
>  Actually, either you keep the stock kernel and put only the few modules
> you need in the initramfs, or you configure your kernel build to have all
> these drivers and filesystem statically linked and you don't even need an
> initramfs at all.
>
> Didier
>
>
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Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan live images

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 10:56:19AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 19/05/2016 21:14, Rainer Weikusat a écrit :
> >[I already strongly suspected the below but didn't want to write about
> >it until I had a chance to test]
> >
> >THe initramfs doesn't need to include all the modules belonging to the
> >kernel, just those which are needed to mount the real root filesystem
> >(containing the remaining driver modules). This would mean all
> >filesystems and storage device drivers you want to support but, eg, no
> >networking modules (nfsroot sounds like an implausible feature for a
> >live image).
> 
> If you mean to run your live system with the cdrom as the root
> filesystem, then the only drivers you need during the initramfs
> phase are those needed to mount the cdrom, ie the iso9660 filesystem
> and the drivers needed to access the cdrom, which includes the USB
> stack in case of a separate cdrom drive.

You need a few more things for a generic live, e.g. support for all
the disk controllers, support for aufs and other union filesystems,
the full USB stack, and several drivers from the scsi/ bundle, which
are needed to deal with cdroms...

But yes, in principle you can trim out eveything else, which is what I
have done so far.

On top of that, I am now working in a further stripped-down initrd
which lacks also support for esoteric hw (scsi controllers,
fiberchannel, and the like), and the result is an xz image which is
barely 7 MB. I am planning to include it as a boot option in the
unofficial minimal live, which might be used in 99% of the cases and
will allow the system to boot with as low as 64 MB of RAM :)

> 
>  Actually, either you keep the stock kernel and put only the few
> modules you need in the initramfs, or you configure your kernel
> build to have all these drivers and filesystem statically linked and
> you don't even need an initramfs at all.
>

Yep, but this is not a viable option for live systems, since it is not
easy to customise...

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan live images

[Didier Kryn]

Le 20/05/2016 13:11, KatolaZ a écrit :

> If you mean to run your live system with the cdrom as the root
>filesystem, then the only drivers you need during the initramfs
>phase are those needed to mount the cdrom, ie the iso9660 filesystem
>and the drivers needed to access the cdrom, which includes the USB
>stack in case of a separate cdrom drive.

You need a few more things for a generic live, e.g. support for all
the disk controllers, support for aufs and other union filesystems,
the full USB stack, and several drivers from the scsi/ bundle, which
are needed to deal with cdroms...


Yes, you must include everything needed to read the cdrom. It's 
true it includes the scsi bundle and the USB stack, but not the disk 
controllers. And support for union filesystems only if they are needed 
to mount the cdrom ( don't see why). My own trend would be to rebuild 
the kernel with those drivers statically linked and boot directly to the 
cdrom without and initramfs.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan live images

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 02:24:07PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 20/05/2016 13:11, KatolaZ a écrit :
> >>> If you mean to run your live system with the cdrom as the root
> >>>filesystem, then the only drivers you need during the initramfs
> >>>phase are those needed to mount the cdrom, ie the iso9660 filesystem
> >>>and the drivers needed to access the cdrom, which includes the USB
> >>>stack in case of a separate cdrom drive.
> >You need a few more things for a generic live, e.g. support for all
> >the disk controllers, support for aufs and other union filesystems,
> >the full USB stack, and several drivers from the scsi/ bundle, which
> >are needed to deal with cdroms...
> 
> Yes, you must include everything needed to read the cdrom. It's
> true it includes the scsi bundle and the USB stack, but not the disk
> controllers. And support for union filesystems only if they are
> needed to mount the cdrom ( don't see why). My own trend would be to

Because the minimal live uses a squashfs, which is mounted and
union-ed before init is called, AFAIK. The disk controllers are not
necessary (and in fact I have stripped them off from the microscopic
version of the initramfs), but might be useful if you want to use the
live image as a rescue cd, and boot into an existing / on your
drive. Not necessary. Maybe useful.

> rebuild the kernel with those drivers statically linked and boot
> directly to the cdrom without and initramfs.
> 

Oh, sure we could. But my point is to use standard packages from the
Devuan repo, without too much of customising/recompiling. Otherwise we
could also recompile everything with uclibc, as done in other minimal
distro, and have a truly microscopic userland, but that would be
*another* distribution, not a Devuan ;)

Thanks

KatolaZ

-- 
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Re: [DNG] Artistic decisions - keyboard mappings

[Noel Torres]

Joel Roth  escribió:

1) CAPSLOCK key under console and X, should be mapped to Control

   This mapping is compatible with most server
   administrators preferences, prevents capslock-related mode
   problems in vim.

   If this default leads to angry bug reports, at least they will not be sent
   in all caps ;-)


Please, no. I'm a server administrator, and I like to know that the  
keys do what they are suppossed to do. In Caps Lock case, to lock  
capitals on. I do not know who are those "most server administrators",  
but when I need a Control key, I use a Control key. AND it is against  
the "least surprise" priciple.


2) Terminate X via Ctrl-Alt-Backspace

   Seems like an easy, useful, historic way to kill a malfunctioning X.


Absolutely yes.


3) Disable Print key

   All my uses have been unintentional. Does anyone use it deliberately?


Again, please no. The key should do whatever it is intended to do,  
whatever it is. If and when somebody uses it, it must work. In X, it  
can be mapped to some screenshot program. (And again, "least surprise")


My other wishlist items are:

4) No display manager by default

   I think the community shouldn't coocoon naive users from
   the console. The passing familiarity with the terminal
   that comes with Learning to type username, password, startx
   and Ctrl-Alt-Backspace (to terminate X) will help the user
   if and when they ever have trouble with X.

   That X works so well most of the time, and without manual
   configuration is a credit to xorg maintainers.

   Terminating X, and returning to the console would be
   useful, for example, when fiddling with proprietary video
   drivers.


Devuan is about choice. Let our users decide if they want X server  
started by default or not.


Regards

Noel
er Envite


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Re: [DNG] desktop environment independent logout tool

[aitor_czr]

El 19/05/16 a las 14:00,  escribió:

Is there somewhere a desktop independent tool, to logout from an
xsession (and even better: with a suspend and reboot command too:)  )?

I tried with lxde-logout in a jwm desktop, but apparently that
does not work.

I also tried a script (found in arch), called oblogout (which
originally came from crunchbang (which was debian based). But that
didn't do the job too.

But probably, i'm doing something wrong (?)

I'd be happy for any suggestion!


I use a customized version of oblogout and it works (in openbox), but 
the commands are different depending on the desktop environment.


Cheers,

  Aitor.
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Re: [DNG] Artistic decisions - keyboard mappings

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 20 May 2016 08:29:17 +0200
m_maass  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> very good idea!
> 
> Please take a look for one Unix keyboard,
> https://deskthority.net/w/images/8/8d/Suntype5.jpg
> 
> 
> For my finger/thumb is a pleasant to have Ctrl on the right place,
> i use often Ctrl-a, Ctrl-s, Ctrl-w, Ctrl-x, Ctrl-c, Ctrl-v, Ctrl-q,
> Ctrl-e

Yes! I just realized that moving the Ctrl key would bring my entire
workflow to a halt, because I invoke dmenu with Ctrl+Shift+;, and
toggle a laptop's mousepad with Ctrl+Shift+j.

Ctrl+Shift is trivial for a touch-typist, without thought or looking at
the keyboard, because really you just send your little finger left and
down, and have the others follow it left. To get back to home typing
position is simply a matter of snaking the other way. If ctrl were
where caps-lock is now, you'd need to go left and up, and your little
finger is too short for that: You'd need need to move your whole hand
off the ASDF row, and that's sloow.

The world has a 25 year accumulation of hotkeys. A lot are based purely
on ergonomics (think vim). The time to change the keyboard was in the
20th century, not now.

Of course, this isn't to day Devuan couldn't have an *optional* package
to switch the two keys, for those who wanted to do so.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] JWM: was Some questions re the devuan release

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 20 May 2016 09:26:38 +0200
Irrwahn  wrote:

> On Fri, 20 May 2016 08:04:07 +1000, Ozi Traveller wrote:
> > +1
> > 
> > As a jwm user I would really like to see it brought up to date.  
> 
> Please excuse me for nitpicking here once again:
> 
> The De[bi|vu]an jwm package *is* up to date. The only thing 
> that'd need to be changed (dropped in this case) is a patch 
> that makes some trivial cosmetic changes to the example.jwmrc 
> file. And that'd only serve to relieve the end-user of the 
> burden of applying some miniscule edits to his jwmrc 
> configuration file. 

What about their ridiculous menu, where you need to click through
Debian and then Applications just to get to what you expect the first
time you click the start button?

SteveT

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http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] JWM: was Some questions re the devuan release

[Irrwahn]

On Fri, 20 May 2016 15:40:59 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Fri, 20 May 2016 09:26:38 +0200
> Irrwahn  wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 20 May 2016 08:04:07 +1000, Ozi Traveller wrote:
>>> +1
>>>
>>> As a jwm user I would really like to see it brought up to date.  
>>
>> Please excuse me for nitpicking here once again:
>>
>> The De[bi|vu]an jwm package *is* up to date. The only thing 
>> that'd need to be changed (dropped in this case) is a patch 
>> that makes some trivial cosmetic changes to the example.jwmrc 
>> file. And that'd only serve to relieve the end-user of the 
>> burden of applying some miniscule edits to his jwmrc 
>> configuration file. 
> 
> What about their ridiculous menu, where you need to click through
> Debian and then Applications just to get to what you expect the first
> time you click the start button?

Part of that seems related to above mentioned patch. The 
rest is just as I already wrote upthread. Re-quoted here
for your convenience:

 | I think you 
 | are referring to the Debian menu package, which is 
 | not part of JWM, but merely a "Recommends" in the Debian 
 | jwm package. Without that menu package, the JWM menu 
 | is almost empty: It has only entries for "Terminal", 
 | "Lock", "Restart" and "Exit".
 [...]
 | If one wants 
 | A Slicker Menu ™, one should fork and modify the menu 
 | package instead!


HTH, Regards
Urban

 
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Re: [DNG] some problems with login after fresh install of jessie

[emninger]

Am Thu, 19 May 2016 15:46:15 +
schrieb Florian Zieboll :

> > When i boot the (slim) login window come up (with F1 i am able to
> > see the 3 available xsessions (lxde, openbox, jwm; the latter added
> > after the installation). But none of this options starts. username +
> > password make disappear the login window, but the screen remains
> > with yellow or green background of the slim theme.  
> 
> 
> Hallo Emninger,
> 
> I just installed JWM (next to DWM and LXDE) and can not confirm your
> problem: slim automagically finds and includes it into its F1 session
> "menu". After login, JWM loads as expected. Did you have a look
> into /var/log/slim.log?
> 
> Florian

Just to clarify, happens the same with lightdm. The slim.log file, i
deleted the old one, so it's a fresh on, just after hanging, says:


slim: unexpected signal 15

slim: waiting for X server to shut down

slim: waiting for X server to begin accepting connections.


The F1 session choice is there for me as well, but it does not bring me
anywhere (only the empty yellow window).

Just guessing in the dark: I installed lilo as a booloader (not
grub) ... (???)



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Re: [DNG] ***SPAM*** Dng Digest, Vol 20, Issue 102

[emninger]

Am Thu, 19 May 2016 15:46:15 +
schrieb Florian Zieboll :

> Here a quick "universal logout" hack for slim:

[ . . . ]

I thank you for your effort and help. I'll save it for the momentm but i
won't try it out before i did not figure out my login problem (cfr. the
related msg).

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Re: [DNG] desktop environment independent logout tool

[emninger]

Am Thu, 19 May 2016 15:46:15 +
schrieb Florian Zieboll :

> Here a quick "universal logout" hack for slim:

[ . . . ]

I thank you for your effort and help. I'll save it for the momentm but i
won't try it out before i did not figure out my login problem (cfr. the
related msg).

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Re: [DNG] Artistic decisions - keyboard mappings

[Paweł Cholewiński]

In my opinion OS should be provided without keyboard mapping surprise
for new users.
This customization should be easy performed after installation.

Maybe for thread like this one survey at talk.devuan.org should be
created to know Devuan community opinion distribution ;-)


Paweł

W dniu 20.05.2016 o 16:30, Noel Torres pisze:
> Joel Roth  escribió:
>> 1) CAPSLOCK key under console and X, should be mapped to Control
>>
>>This mapping is compatible with most server
>>administrators preferences, prevents capslock-related mode
>>problems in vim.
>>
>>If this default leads to angry bug reports, at least they will not
>> be sent
>>in all caps ;-)
> 
> Please, no. I'm a server administrator, and I like to know that the keys
> do what they are suppossed to do. In Caps Lock case, to lock capitals
> on. I do not know who are those "most server administrators", but when I
> need a Control key, I use a Control key. AND it is against the "least
> surprise" priciple.
>>
>> 2) Terminate X via Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
>>
>>Seems like an easy, useful, historic way to kill a malfunctioning X.
> 
> Absolutely yes.
>>
>> 3) Disable Print key
>>
>>All my uses have been unintentional. Does anyone use it deliberately?
> 
> Again, please no. The key should do whatever it is intended to do,
> whatever it is. If and when somebody uses it, it must work. In X, it can
> be mapped to some screenshot program. (And again, "least surprise")
>>
>> My other wishlist items are:
>>
>> 4) No display manager by default
>>
>>I think the community shouldn't coocoon naive users from
>>the console. The passing familiarity with the terminal
>>that comes with Learning to type username, password, startx
>>and Ctrl-Alt-Backspace (to terminate X) will help the user
>>if and when they ever have trouble with X.
>>
>>That X works so well most of the time, and without manual
>>configuration is a credit to xorg maintainers.
>>
>>Terminating X, and returning to the console would be
>>useful, for example, when fiddling with proprietary video
>>drivers.
> 
> Devuan is about choice. Let our users decide if they want X server
> started by default or not.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Noel
> er Envite
> 
> 
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Re: [DNG] some problems with login after fresh install of jessie

[emninger]

I think i go a bit closer to my problem with the login via a display
manager: I tried several login managers, and with allo of them trying
to login as user brings me into nirwana.

Now, i tried to login as root (+ passwd) via Slim and voilà, it worked!

So, my suspect here - but without any idea how to "repair": since i had
to do a downgrade (to be able to use the fglrx driver!) from ascii to
jessie, i did a fresh install, but i left the /home untouched by the
partition program of the installer (although i redefined it as /home)
because i wanted to keep the user settings i did before. Now, the home
works yes, but may be there is something that should be done in
addition to get it completely integrated?

When i do startx the .xinitrc line 'exec: jwm' (or startlxde or
openbox) is read correctly and X is started with the respective desktop
environment.
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Re: [DNG] Artistic decisions - keyboard mappings

[Sadegh Sadegh]

Hi,
I am a simple linux user without technical knowledg,how liks use devuan,but I 
can't find a simple installation guid for devuan . I like install it like 
uefi-very simple-is that possible?

Thanks

Sad
From Holland-my english is not good,I'm sory.

20.05.2016, 22:59, "Paweł Cholewiński" :
> In my opinion OS should be provided without keyboard mapping surprise
> for new users.
> This customization should be easy performed after installation.
>
> Maybe for thread like this one survey at talk.devuan.org should be
> created to know Devuan community opinion distribution ;-)
>
> Paweł
>
> W dniu 20.05.2016 o 16:30, Noel Torres pisze:
>>  Joel Roth  escribió:
>>>  1) CAPSLOCK key under console and X, should be mapped to Control
>>>
>>> This mapping is compatible with most server
>>> administrators preferences, prevents capslock-related mode
>>> problems in vim.
>>>
>>> If this default leads to angry bug reports, at least they will not
>>>  be sent
>>> in all caps ;-)
>>
>>  Please, no. I'm a server administrator, and I like to know that the keys
>>  do what they are suppossed to do. In Caps Lock case, to lock capitals
>>  on. I do not know who are those "most server administrators", but when I
>>  need a Control key, I use a Control key. AND it is against the "least
>>  surprise" priciple.
>>>  2) Terminate X via Ctrl-Alt-Backspace
>>>
>>> Seems like an easy, useful, historic way to kill a malfunctioning X.
>>
>>  Absolutely yes.
>>>  3) Disable Print key
>>>
>>> All my uses have been unintentional. Does anyone use it deliberately?
>>
>>  Again, please no. The key should do whatever it is intended to do,
>>  whatever it is. If and when somebody uses it, it must work. In X, it can
>>  be mapped to some screenshot program. (And again, "least surprise")
>>>  My other wishlist items are:
>>>
>>>  4) No display manager by default
>>>
>>> I think the community shouldn't coocoon naive users from
>>> the console. The passing familiarity with the terminal
>>> that comes with Learning to type username, password, startx
>>> and Ctrl-Alt-Backspace (to terminate X) will help the user
>>> if and when they ever have trouble with X.
>>>
>>> That X works so well most of the time, and without manual
>>> configuration is a credit to xorg maintainers.
>>>
>>> Terminating X, and returning to the console would be
>>> useful, for example, when fiddling with proprietary video
>>> drivers.
>>
>>  Devuan is about choice. Let our users decide if they want X server
>>  started by default or not.
>>
>>  Regards
>>
>>  Noel
>>  er Envite
>>
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> ,
>
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Re: [DNG] Artistic decisions - keyboard mappings

[Jaromil]

hoy Sadegh

On Fri, 20 May 2016, Sadegh Sadegh wrote:

> Hi, I am a simple linux user without technical knowledg,how liks use
> devuan,but I can't find a simple installation guid for devuan . I
> like install it like uefi-very simple-is that possible?

https://www.nllgg.nl/linux/beginnen-met-linux

devuan installer is the same as debian https://wiki.debian.org/UEFI

plus for a beginner livecd can be easier, see
http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/other/

or refracta itself which is based on Devuan
http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/current/

> From Holland-my english is not good,I'm sory.

no problem, good luck and happy hacking!


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[DNG] My comment on Vendor Lock-in

[Steve Litt]

Hi all,

Boston LUG list. One guy said "there are alternatives to Gnome." The
next guy said "yeah, but a lot of software needs Gnome, implying
alternatives won't do the trick. Then I had my say:

http://blu.org/pipermail/discuss/2016-May/050442.html

SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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[DNG] My comment on Vendor Lock-in

[emninger]

Am Sat, 21 May 2016 00:44:24 +
schrieb Steve Litt :

> Hi all,
> 
> Boston LUG list. One guy said "there are alternatives to Gnome." The
> next guy said "yeah, but a lot of software needs Gnome, implying
> alternatives won't do the trick. Then I had my say:
> 
> http://blu.org/pipermail/discuss/2016-May/050442.html
> 
> SteveT

It's interesting - and made me curious to check my system: For what i
see there are on my system (seen by htop):

gnome-pty-helper and /usr/lib/at-spi2-core/at-spi2-registryd
--use-gnome-session (the latter one apparently related to lightdm)
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Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan live images

[Didier Kryn]

Le 20/05/2016 14:37, KatolaZ a écrit :

On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 02:24:07PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 20/05/2016 13:11, KatolaZ a écrit :

 If you mean to run your live system with the cdrom as the root
filesystem, then the only drivers you need during the initramfs
phase are those needed to mount the cdrom, ie the iso9660 filesystem
and the drivers needed to access the cdrom, which includes the USB
stack in case of a separate cdrom drive.

You need a few more things for a generic live, e.g. support for all
the disk controllers, support for aufs and other union filesystems,
the full USB stack, and several drivers from the scsi/ bundle, which
are needed to deal with cdroms...

 Yes, you must include everything needed to read the cdrom. It's
true it includes the scsi bundle and the USB stack, but not the disk
controllers. And support for union filesystems only if they are
needed to mount the cdrom ( don't see why). My own trend would be to

Because the minimal live uses a squashfs, which is mounted and
union-ed before init is called, AFAIK. The disk controllers are not
necessary (and in fact I have stripped them off from the microscopic
version of the initramfs), but might be useful if you want to use the
live image as a rescue cd, and boot into an existing / on your
drive. Not necessary. Maybe useful.
The disk controllers need to be on the live cd for sure, but why in 
the initramfs?



rebuild the kernel with those drivers statically linked and boot
directly to the cdrom without and initramfs.


Oh, sure we could. But my point is to use standard packages from the
Devuan repo, without too much of customising/recompiling.


I was just thinking of a minimal hack: starting from Devuan's 
kernel config, just change a few drivers' build-mode from module to 
static. After all, do you think it's more of a hack than stripping the 
initramfs? But I admit it's a different journey than the one you have 
undertaken.



  Otherwise we
could also recompile everything with uclibc, as done in other minimal
distro, and have a truly microscopic userland, but that would be
*another* distribution, not a Devuan ;)



Musl libc is already a serious challenge :-) Uclibc a nightmare, 
too incompatible with glibc.


Sorry if I look harsh, providing recommendations to people who do 
the real job :-) ideas come out of the conversation and I just like to 
share them with knowledgeable people.


Didier

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