Re: [DNG] Giving Devuan sans-initramfs capabilities
Hi Svante, On 01/04/2016 11:00 PM, Svante Signell wrote: The more we need to have vdev debianised then! aitor_csr, can I help? What about eudev? Now i'm progressing in netman-gtk3. Shortly i will follow with vdev. Aitor. @SteveT: I keep in mind to test your amounter :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Giving Devuan sans-initramfs capabilities
Le 05/01/2016 04:30, Simon Wise a écrit : On 05/01/16 08:10, Svante Signell wrote: On Mon, 2016-01-04 at 20:43 +, Rainer Weikusat wrote: k...@aspodata.se writes: chaosesquet...@cock.li: I don't understand the desire to change it at all. See UsrMerge discussion on debian-devel. They wan to move most stuff in / to /usr and make it readonly. (The only sensible motivation I've found so far is for NFS, but how many people use that? It would seem to be a potentially useful tool in managing a fleet of locked-down desktops with the end users prevented from modifying their system. It's frozen, like Knoppix. It's sometimes convenient, but it's not an evolving distro like Debian or RedHat. I imagine RedHat shipping a DVD to their clients for every security update or bug fix! Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] upgrade to devuan
Hello, thank you. Actually it was your guides that moved me to switch to Devuan. I was very confused at the time I made this thread. Now I know Wheezy ISO images are perfectly operational; I thought they were "obsolete" since Jessie came out! I have some doubts though. These steps should work, I guess, to upgrade from a Wheezy base system to Devuan Jessie: cd /tmp/ wget http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/pool/main/d/devuan-baseconf/devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan1_all.deb dpkg -i devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan1_all.deb apt-get update# Switch repos apt-get install devuan-keyring apt-get install base-files# Needed with Wheezy? apt-get install sysvinit-core # Needed with Wheezy? apt-get dist-upgrade # Install Devuan! AFAIK installing devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan1_all.deb is pretty much the same as modifying sources.list by hand. I chose 0.6.4+devuan1 because--correct me if I'm wrong: 0.6.4+devuan1 = jessie 0.6.4+devuan2 = ascii 0.6.4+devuan3 = ceres Thanks 2015-11-08 20:42 GMT-03:00 dev1fanboy : > Sorry, I posted the wrong link in the mailing list, try > > https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/Upgrade-to-Devuan > > > Take back your privacy. Switch to StartMail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Problems of Devuan installer (Alpha2) I experinced.
Hi, I had a similar problem. I changed my debian 8 to devuan and received a similar message. When I restart the laptop I got a grub prompt and manually start devuan. I repaired the system running grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg Regards On 2015-11-16 11:55, janpenguin wrote: > Hi, > > I tried to install Duvuan using Devuan installer few times but all the > attempts failed due to partitioning the hard disk, followed by GRUB > installation at the end. So I used Debian installer (7.0 and 8.2) to > create basic Debian system, and then upgraded to Devuan system one by > one. > > The system setup was > /dev/sda - bootable USB stick > /dev/sdb - Hard disk > > [Partition disks] could not handle manual selection. > When I chose manual, it complained "No root file system." > > Partition disks > No root file system > No root file system is defined. > Please correct this from the partitioning menu. > > On 'Guided - use the largest continous free space', how dose it know the > free space on the hard disk which is already partitioned? > > Guided partition kept the installationg going, but in the final stage of > GRUB boot loader, it failed to detect the Devuan partition. > > Below is the error message. > > Install the GRUB boot loader on a hard disk > > Unable to install GRUB in /dev/sda > Executing 'grub-install /dev/sda' failed. > > This is a fatal error. > > Another inconvenient issue which inherited from Debian installer is, the > installer does not allow to change English keyboard layout from Qwerty > to other one. In my case, I'm a full-time Colemak user. If I didn't have > a qwerty keyboard, it would be difficult to use Devuan installer. > > Qwerty layout became defacto standard. But some keyboard makers offer > Dvorak, Colemak layout for customers. This means they care about > minorities. Debian has been ignorant or lazy about this issue. > > Debian supports non-Qwerty keyboard layouts though. > # dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration > # service keyboard-setup restart > > Regards, > Hughe > > > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Question on Devuan
Linux O'Beardly wrote: > While many here would probably say it's not a good idea to run servers on > Devuan until a production release, I am already running it on a number of > servers. That's good to know - I need to find time to do some testing myself. > R. W. Rodolico wrote: > BTW, while I can not contribute the skills necessary at this point, my > offer of a mirror still stands, whenever that becomes needed. Resources > I have, but my programming skills are so far out of date I'd be a > liability. But, resources I would be happy to share when/if you need them. I too would be able to offer disk space and bandwidth - but that would be just the ~15Mbps of my home connection rather than any "fast" hosted server connection. I suppose the biggest question has to be : I assume people are working towards a situation where the user can "s/debian/devuan" in /etc/apt/sources and then dist-upgrade - I can't help feeling that for many (perhaps the majority) of users, adding some random repository might feel a bit "dangerous". Does anyone have a feel for how far off that might be ? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuringminimalism
After the reboot (half way through the instructions), those with a Wifi network card won't be able to continue (install xfce4, and so on...) because they won't be in x-windows anymore, and the network-manager app needs x-windows to work, ergo, no internet connection :( On 2015-11-03 20:51, dev1fanboy wrote: > Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism. > > There are a lot of people talking about minimalism in Devuan and some > may be wondering if they can upgrade to Devuan. The answer is yes, you > can upgrade to Devuan right now and expect it to work with few if any > problems in the stable branch - which is not yet announced stable but > is clearly a lot better than alpha quality as you might have heard > mentioned on devuan.org. I am currently putting in a little research > before writing a more full guide to upgrading, installing and getting > more minimalism out of Devuan. Hopefully I will be starting a wiki for > all this info and more to go into in the near future, but for now I > want to just put it out there for people trying to upgrade their > current system or get more minimalism in their system. > > Let's get started. > > > 1) Upgrading Debian to Devuan Stable (aka Jessie 1.0) > > You can upgrade to Devuan Jessie 1.0 from either Debian Wheezy or from > Debian Jessie. For other branches you are on your own for now, and I > suggest avoiding upgrades to Devuan testing (ascii) for now until after > the official stable release. > > First simply open a terminal and type: > > user@debian:~$ sudo -s > > Enter your user password. > > Or if sudo is not available: > > user@debian:~$ su > > Enter your root password. > > Now we can continue with the upgrade. You need to edit the sources.list > configuration file so that apt will be getting packages only from the > devuan mirror (there is just one for now): > > root@debian:~# nano /etc/apt/sources.list > > Comment out ALL current lines in your sources.list and add the Devuan > mirror with the Jessie (stable) branch. This is roughly how it should > look: > > #deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy main > deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie main > > Now we need to get the devuan keyring from the repoistory so we can > authenticate packages: > > root@debian:~# apt-get update > root@debian:~# apt-get install devuan-keyring > > Many people coming over to Devuan will be hoping to escape the web of > systemd in the process - if this is your choice you need to specify > your init system now before you proceed. I will be using sysvinit in > this example as it is what I have tested - systemd init will be removed > if present: > > root@debian:~# apt-get install sysvinit-core > > The base-files package will be installed automatically in the case of > an upgrade from Debian Wheezy, but it has been reported that this > package will need to be selected manually when upgrading from Jessie. > Either way we can do this now: > > root@debian:~# apt-get install base-files > > Start the system upgrade with: > > root@debian:~# apt-get dist-upgrade > > Depending on your connection speed it could take a while, grab yourself > a drink. > > Once finished you will be using Devuan GNU/Linux 1. > > Do some optional cleaning up: > > root@devuan:~# apt-get autoremove --purge > root@devuan:~# apt-get autoclean > > The first command will remove any 'orphaned' dependencies from your > previous install including unwanted configurations for those packages. > I highly recommend this because it's good security practice. The second > command clears up all cached packages except for those that are > installed on the running system, reclaiming a little disk space. > > Now you should simply reboot so that you are using the kernel shipped > with Devuan: > > root@devuan:~# reboot > > If in the upgrade process gnome was removed do not panic, the reason > for this is it depends on systemd and you have opted for sysvinit. The > default desktop environment in Devuan is XFCE: > > root@devuan:~# apt-get install xfce4 > > Check that you can start your desktop environment: > > root@devuan:~# su - username > user@devuan:~$ startxfce4 > > If it all works you can add a display manager safely for when you next > reboot: > > root@devuan:~# apt-get install slim > > > 2) Configure minimalism in the system > > Thanks to a tip given to me by a fellow minimalist from #debianfork > (unnamed for now until I talk to them) you will be able to debloat your > system in a very neat way. This is completely optional and may be done > either before or after the upgrade. We are going to configure apt to > ignore all 'recommended' packages in Debian/Devuan as the majority of > these often will not make sense to be there. There are some exceptions > where recommends should definitely be installed and we will take care > of this as well. > > First use an editor to make the necessary changes: > > root@devuan:~# nano /etc/apt.conf.d/01lean > > Add the following lines: > > APT::Install-Suggests
Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and, configuringminimalism
Hi Patrice, On 01/05/2016 10:58 AM, Patrice Remy wrote: After the reboot (half way through the instructions), those with a Wifi network card won't be able to continue (install xfce4, and so on...) because they won't be in x-windows anymore, and the network-manager app needs x-windows to work, ergo, no internet connection:( You can get a network connection without x-window using the backend of netman: ~$ /usr/lib/netman/bin/backend 4 ESSID Try the following steps: 1.- Open the GUI of netman and disconnect the device. 2.- Open a tty, for example Ctrl + Alt + F2 3.- Login as user and run the above command. In my case: ~$ cd /usr/lib/netman/bin ~$ ./backend 4 Euskaltel-58YA Internet Systems Consortium DHCP Client 4.3.1 Copyright 2004-2014 Internet Systems Consortium. All rights reserved. For info, please visit https://www.isc.org/software/dhcp/ Listening on LPF/wlan0/00:1b:9e:5f:67:46 Sending on LPF/wlan0/00:1b:9e:5f:67:46 Sending on Socket/fallback DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 6 DHCPDISCOVER on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 11 DHCPREQUEST on wlan0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 DHCPOFFER from 192.168.0.1 DHCPACK from 192.168.0.1 bound to 192.168.0.10 -- renewal in 40561 seconds. Now, go back to the graphical session: Ctrl + Alt + F7 As you can see, the system is connected. HTH, Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] upgrade to devuan
Hi Vicente, On 01/05/2016 10:58 AM, Vicente Vera wrote: AFAIK installing devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan1_all.deb is pretty much the same as modifying sources.list by hand. I chose 0.6.4+devuan1 because--correct me if I'm wrong: 0.6.4+devuan1 = jessie 0.6.4+devuan2 = ascii 0.6.4+devuan3 = ceres Thanks I don't think so... Increasing from devuan1 to devuan2 means changes in the debian branch of the package (instead of the upstream branch, i.e. the sources). So, different versions of the package don't belong *necessarily* to different releases of the system. Cheers, Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] PAM usage (Was: Giving Devuan sans-initramfs capabilities)
Teodoro Santoni: > 2016-01-04 21:43 GMT+01:00, Rainer Weikusat : > > k...@aspodata.se writes: > >> chaosesquet...@cock.li: > >>> I don't understand the desire to change it at all. > >> And neither do I. > >> Except someone talked about ssl libs. > > Someone wrote about some PAM module which would require OpenSSL. No such > > PAM module currently exists on my system and I don't quite understand > > why 'PAM modules' would be needed for booting a system, anyway. > Nothing is impossible and someone may wish to integrate his/her wordpress' > login > credentials with the computer(s) he/she manage. > I recognize it's a stupid example. > > However: logind, systemd, the MadnessKit family of Kits, break configurations > because of byzantine and heterogenous types of login (rfid, TPM, > fingerprints, ...), masses of sec data different than "a key for a service" > and multi-user access to programs (thirty years of X server > and you can run X as root XOR use systemd). Or so it seems. > But do any of you find useful to have PAM? Do any of you need single-sign-on, > TPM, smart-cards that unlock ttys, integrate kerberos with linux, or the like? And what has "how to login" to do with "how to boot" ? Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Giving Devuan sans-initramfs capabilities
Katola2: > On Mon, Jan 04, 2016 at 02:57:58AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: ... > there is really no magic skill involved. By using kernel-package the > "skills" needed to do what you mention are just those needed to > compile a standard kernel + invoking make-kpkg. There is also a > relatively old howto here: ... There is a new "howto": https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-handbook/sect.kernel-compilation.en.html basically, do (or some variation of): make menuconfig make deb-pkg Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] PAM usage (Was: Giving Devuan sans-initramfs capabilities)
2016-01-05 12:28 GMT+01:00, Karl Hammar : > And what has "how to login" to do with "how to boot" ? > > Regards, > /Karl Hammar It's easier to * avoid hacks in the login process if your software controls everything from the power button to the session; * get away with "your OS will die without my software!!!" if nobody knows how to authenticate in non-keyboard ways without it. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuringminimalism
I thought this might be an issue having run into something similar myself, thanks for confirming. I need to work out the right and simplest way to do it with wireless stations before writing in instructions. wicd-gtk and wicd-curses might be an option to prevent this from happening, so install one of those and xfce4 (if necessary) before upgrading or removing anything. On Sunday, November 8, 2015 2:30 PM, Patrice Remy wrote: > After the reboot (half way through the instructions), those with a Wifi > network card won't be able to continue (install xfce4, and so on...) > because they won't be in x-windows anymore, and the network-manager app > needs x-windows to work, ergo, no internet connection :( > > On 2015-11-03 20:51, dev1fanboy wrote: > > Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism. > > > > There are a lot of people talking about minimalism in Devuan and some > > may be wondering if they can upgrade to Devuan. The answer is yes, you > > can upgrade to Devuan right now and expect it to work with few if any > > problems in the stable branch - which is not yet announced stable but > > is clearly a lot better than alpha quality as you might have heard > > mentioned on devuan.org. I am currently putting in a little research > > before writing a more full guide to upgrading, installing and getting > > more minimalism out of Devuan. Hopefully I will be starting a wiki for > > all this info and more to go into in the near future, but for now I > > want to just put it out there for people trying to upgrade their > > current system or get more minimalism in their system. > > > > Let's get started. > > > > > > 1) Upgrading Debian to Devuan Stable (aka Jessie 1.0) > > > > You can upgrade to Devuan Jessie 1.0 from either Debian Wheezy or from > > Debian Jessie. For other branches you are on your own for now, and I > > suggest avoiding upgrades to Devuan testing (ascii) for now until after > > the official stable release. > > > > First simply open a terminal and type: > > > > user@debian:~$ sudo -s > > > > Enter your user password. > > > > Or if sudo is not available: > > > > user@debian:~$ su > > > > Enter your root password. > > > > Now we can continue with the upgrade. You need to edit the sources.list > > configuration file so that apt will be getting packages only from the > > devuan mirror (there is just one for now): > > > > root@debian:~# nano /etc/apt/sources.list > > > > Comment out ALL current lines in your sources.list and add the Devuan > > mirror with the Jessie (stable) branch. This is roughly how it should > > look: > > > > #deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy main > > deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie main > > > > Now we need to get the devuan keyring from the repoistory so we can > > authenticate packages: > > > > root@debian:~# apt-get update > > root@debian:~# apt-get install devuan-keyring > > > > Many people coming over to Devuan will be hoping to escape the web of > > systemd in the process - if this is your choice you need to specify > > your init system now before you proceed. I will be using sysvinit in > > this example as it is what I have tested - systemd init will be removed > > if present: > > > > root@debian:~# apt-get install sysvinit-core > > > > The base-files package will be installed automatically in the case of > > an upgrade from Debian Wheezy, but it has been reported that this > > package will need to be selected manually when upgrading from Jessie. > > Either way we can do this now: > > > > root@debian:~# apt-get install base-files > > > > Start the system upgrade with: > > > > root@debian:~# apt-get dist-upgrade > > > > Depending on your connection speed it could take a while, grab yourself > > a drink. > > > > Once finished you will be using Devuan GNU/Linux 1. > > > > Do some optional cleaning up: > > > > root@devuan:~# apt-get autoremove --purge > > root@devuan:~# apt-get autoclean > > > > The first command will remove any 'orphaned' dependencies from your > > previous install including unwanted configurations for those packages. > > I highly recommend this because it's good security practice. The second > > command clears up all cached packages except for those that are > > installed on the running system, reclaiming a little disk space. > > > > Now you should simply reboot so that you are using the kernel shipped > > with Devuan: > > > > root@devuan:~# reboot > > > > If in the upgrade process gnome was removed do not panic, the reason > > for this is it depends on systemd and you have opted for sysvinit. The > > default desktop environment in Devuan is XFCE: > > > > root@devuan:~# apt-get install xfce4 > > > > Check that you can start your desktop environment: > > > > root@devuan:~# su - username > > user@devuan:~$ startxfce4 > > > > If it all works you can add a display manager safely for when you next > > reb
Re: [DNG] Office pack
Le 08/11/2015 16:51, Haines Brown a écrit : Some people (but not I) might recommend LyX as a compromise. Lyx is not for newbies. It's convenient for experienced LaTeX users because they can understand what they are doing. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Office pack
Le 05/01/2016 14:30, Didier Kryn a écrit : Le 08/11/2015 16:51, Haines Brown a écrit : Some people (but not I) might recommend LyX as a compromise. Lyx is not for newbies. It's convenient for experienced LaTeX users because they can understand what they are doing. Didier _ Sorry for the noise, Icedove pointed me far in the past to an apparently unread email and I replied. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Question about the merged repos
About backports, I found some issues there Specifically, I had devuan debootstrap installed and upgrading would result in getting a debian version Also, not sure if it's the expected behaviour but when using the devuan backports repo a dist-upgrade would pull in packages from there too On Monday, January 4, 2016 10:33 PM, Daniel Reurich wrote: > On 04/01/16 06:52, Go Linux wrote: >> Why are you merging the debian, backports and dmo repos? Is there a >> way to separate them? I have rarely used backports and always >> downloaded what I need from dmo when I first install and then disable >> it. dmo can really break things if you're not careful. > > We are currently merging dmo - was mostly done as a test for amprolla. I > can ask nextime to remove that if it is causing breakages or other > problems. > > As for locking to specific versions, that *is* what pinning is meant > for. Not merging dmo won't prevent an upgrade causing a broken debian > version to be pulled in instead. > > We are NOT merging backports or updates or security updates. These will > all be handled as separate repositories. If you want backports (or > stable updates) you have to specify them in your /etc/apt/sources.list > > We'll of course need to document this in our "getting started with > Devuan" guide which has yet to be written. > > Regards, > Daniel. > -- > Daniel Reurich > Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. > 021 797 722 > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Take back your privacy. Switch to www.StartMail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] PAM usage
Teodoro Santoni writes:
> 2016-01-04 21:43 GMT+01:00, Rainer Weikusat :
>> k...@aspodata.se writes:
>>> chaosesquet...@cock.li:
I don't understand the desire to change it at all.
>>>
>>> And neither do I.
>>> Except someone talked about ssl libs.
>>
>> Someone wrote about some PAM module which would require OpenSSL. No such
>> PAM module currently exists on my system and I don't quite understand
>> why 'PAM modules' would be needed for booting a system, anyway.
>
> Nothing is impossible and someone may wish to integrate his/her wordpress'
> login
> credentials with the computer(s) he/she manage.
> I recognize it's a stupid example.
It's certainly possible to program something like this but even the
'mount /usr in initramfs' Debian-text admits that there's presently
nothing which would need this, just something 'someone' might create
in future. Within the envisioned 'release goal', the only practical
effect is thus to break systems using /usr on a distinctive partition
but no initramfs ("Know them by their fruits"?), or at least, the text
claims this. But the UNIX(*)-filesystem namespace is supposed to be
device-independent and in absence of the special case of 'software
needed to boot the system', no two directories are required to reside on
the same physical device. That's a fundamental property of the system
which exists completely indepedently of someone's inability (or
unwillingness) to imagine of something this could be good for.
[...]
> But do any of you find useful to have PAM? Do any of you need
> single-sign-on, TPM, smart-cards that unlock ttys, integrate kerberos
> with linux, or the like?
I've actually used PAM for transparently migrating a flat-file based
multi-user 'workplace server' to Kerberos which came in very handy when
(after the death of the last 'real' X-terminal) the complete
installation was migrated to SunRays. But that was more than ten years
ago and a part of the only 'volunteering'[*] task I'm ever going to do.
[*] The people profitting from something like this typically don't care
because "it's free" but there are truckloads of people who don't
profit from the 'management position' in the way they believe they
could wasn't it done by someone else (and were they willing to put
any real work in) and this makes for seriously ugly endings ...
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Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
Clarke Sideroad writes: > So I've been thinking more about this as to why? > > It is quite obvious that it is driven by Redhat to be the same as Oracle > Solaris, they say as much. That's "quite obviously" an after-the-fact justification and the corresponding freedesktop.org text, http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/separate-usr-is-broken/ (still) quite plainly states that udev (it names no other examples) is developed based on the assumption that / and /usr reside on the same device and that any bug reports regarding this are WONTFIXes. IOW, that's a policy decision certain people originally made for "their systems" which is now forced on everybody else. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
- Original Message - > From: "Didier Kryn" > Le 02/01/2016 03:44, Stephanie Daugherty a écrit : >> Regardless of who proposed it, merged /usr is still a reckless change > that >> needlessly complicates things. > > The simple fact of splitting executables between two different > directories *is* a complication; merging them back would be a > *simplification* :-). I've read, from a guy who followed the story, that > it was originally split because the first disk was too small. Wether it > has become later a usefull complication can be discussed of course :-) > I have also read that the split was done because they ran out of disk space. However, many great inventions over the years were created/discovered by accident. I wouldn't classify a separate /usr as a "great invention", but it certainly has proved itself to be useful over the years. The problem is that the people behind this merge are inexperienced as system admins. Being a good programmer does not by itself qualify a person to decide on the types of changes they are proposing. You need to be an experienced system admin if you are going to make smart changes to the underlying layers of an operating system. This applies to what they are doing with systemd as well. And I can give a simple example that illustrates the inexperience of the systemd architect(s): If I want to stop a service, then do some operation (edit a config file, perhaps), then start that service, I need to run the following commands: systemctl stop someservice vi someservice.cfg systemctl start someservice The systemctl syntax are in nice English language order. It sounds like a sentence. But it is backwards if you consider the steps a sysadmin would take to type them: systemctl stop someservice start Or just re-type the whole line -- it's probably quicker. If they had done it right: systemctl someservice stop start An experienced sysadmin who has to do this type of thing several times a day would have designed this syntax for ease of use. The systemd developers did not do this, presumably because they do not have to type these commands several times a day. Same goes for the /usr merge. They do not understand the usefulness of this "historical mistake" because they are inexperienced. -Rob ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
- Original Message - > From: "Roger Leigh" > Regarding the comments people made about having separate / and /usr > filesystems. While it was common historically, there is little or no > practical benefit to doing so in 2016. Storage sizes make it > unnecessary for pretty much all practical scenarios. The two are > managed by dpkg as a coherent whole; they are logically inseparable. > They serve the same purpose. Do reconsider whether it's actually > necessary for you to do this, or whether it's merely habit. Some > historical practices continue to have value; others, including this one, > do not. This is not true for zLinux (Linux on an IBM mainframe). Disk space on a mainframe is quite expensive compared to what we are used to on Intel hardware. I have customers who use a shared /usr among several zLinux systems, and the reason is cost savings. I don't blame anybody on this list for not knowing about this, but I find it amazing that Red Hat doesn't know better. They are a major supplier of Linux for mainframes. (FYI, that's the s390 and s390x architecture that you see available from a handful of distros). -Rob ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
* On 2016 05 Jan 08:47 -0600, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > (still) quite plainly states that udev (it names no other examples) is > developed based on the assumption that / and /usr reside on the same > device and that any bug reports regarding this are WONTFIXes. IOW, > that's a policy decision certain people originally made for "their > systems" which is now forced on everybody else. Snicker. What next, naming partitions 'C', 'D', etc.? Rolls eyes. This group is actively building a walled garden of "open source". And people wonder why some of us have no use for this nonsense. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuringminimalism
On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 13:03:17 - "dev1fanboy" wrote: > I thought this might be an issue having run into something similar > myself, thanks for confirming. > > I need to work out the right and simplest way to do it with wireless > stations before writing in instructions. > > (...) > > On Sunday, November 8, 2015 2:30 PM, Patrice Remy > wrote: > > After the reboot (half way through the instructions), those with a > > Wifi network card won't be able to continue (install xfce4, and so > > on...) because they won't be in x-windows anymore, and the > > network-manager app needs x-windows to work, ergo, no internet > > connection :( Hello Dev1fanboy, do you see any serious reason to avoid installing the new desktop environment /before/ rebooting? At least for now, when upgrading from Debian Jessie to Devuan Jessie, the kernel version doesn't change and consequently the modules remain compatible. So AFAIU a reboot would not be necessary at all. Even if the kernel version should change (e.g. when upgrading from Debian Wheezy), the dist-upgrade will not trigger the loading of any modules, so a hint to avoid doing any fancy stuff during the upgrade process (and do a reboot afterwards) should be more than enough. Regards, Florian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] PAM usage
2016-01-05 15:26 GMT+01:00, Rainer Weikusat :
> It's certainly possible to program something like this but even the
> 'mount /usr in initramfs' Debian-text admits that there's presently
> nothing which would need this, just something 'someone' might create
> in future. Within the envisioned 'release goal', the only practical
> effect is thus to break systems using /usr on a distinctive partition
> but no initramfs ("Know them by their fruits"?), or at least, the text
> claims this. But the UNIX(*)-filesystem namespace is supposed to be
> device-independent and in absence of the special case of 'software
> needed to boot the system', no two directories are required to reside on
> the same physical device. That's a fundamental property of the system
> which exists completely indepedently of someone's inability (or
> unwillingness) to imagine of something this could be good for.
Breaking normal use-cases to favour a few use-cases (be it opinions
or that udev works only if /usr is already mounted) is considered
best practice in Linux development.
> I've actually used PAM for transparently migrating a flat-file based
> multi-user 'workplace server' to Kerberos which came in very handy when
> (after the death of the last 'real' X-terminal) the complete
> installation was migrated to SunRays. But that was more than ten years
> ago and a part of the only 'volunteering'[*] task I'm ever going to do.
It seems the freedesktop tendency is to have a good compromise
between windows and fully network-served desktop, while pushing
to ship a product that can serve VMs, sessions, whatever, through the net.
I'd like to give a damn about redhat wishing to sell an
all-encompassing stateless UX solution.
If it wasn't for sane systems like slackware, void or devuan, this
could end with a lot of new or redent windows, macos and openbsd users
and an OS without any decent userspace.
Linux is the new Motif afaik.
___
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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuringminimalism
A reboot should really be down on the user to know if they want to do that, so I didn't include that in other versions and will take it out when improving the original. I think it could be done before apt-get dist-upgrade, but I want to test that as it seems an unusual way to do it and it might be simpler (but longer) to do it after. Maybe fancy stuff like removing old stuff / installing new stuff etc should be down to the user too, like you say. I expect people would want to see systemd removed from their system though, so I'll try some stuff out and update things from there. Cheers, chillfan On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 3:02 PM, Florian Zieboll wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 13:03:17 - > "dev1fanboy" wrote: > >> I thought this might be an issue having run into something similar >> myself, thanks for confirming. >> >> I need to work out the right and simplest way to do it with wireless >> stations before writing in instructions. >> >> (...) >> >> On Sunday, November 8, 2015 2:30 PM, Patrice Remy >> wrote: >> > After the reboot (half way through the instructions), those with a >> > Wifi network card won't be able to continue (install xfce4, and so >> > on...) because they won't be in x-windows anymore, and the >> > network-manager app needs x-windows to work, ergo, no internet >> > connection :( > > Hello Dev1fanboy, > > do you see any serious reason to avoid installing the new desktop > environment /before/ rebooting? At least for now, when upgrading from > Debian Jessie to Devuan Jessie, the kernel version doesn't change and > consequently the modules remain compatible. So AFAIU a reboot would not > be necessary at all. > > Even if the kernel version should change (e.g. when upgrading from > Debian Wheezy), the dist-upgrade will not trigger the loading of any > modules, so a hint to avoid doing any fancy stuff during the upgrade > process (and do a reboot afterwards) should be more than enough. > > Regards, > > Florian > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Take back your privacy. Switch to www.StartMail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
Didier Kryn writes: > Le 02/01/2016 03:44, Stephanie Daugherty a écrit : >> Regardless of who proposed it, merged /usr is still a reckless change > that needlessly complicates things. > > > Hey Stephanie. > > The simple fact of splitting executables between two different > directories *is* a complication; merging them back would be a > *simplification* :-). I've read, from a guy who followed the story, > that it was originally split because the first disk was too > small. Quoting something Rob Landley (who has certainly no more experience with stuff that happened in the first half of the 1970s than I do and possibly less) wrote as gospel is not such a good idea. There's a paper by Dennis Richtie, "The UNIX Time-Sharing System" published in 1974 (AFAICT, it's not on Landley's "list of computer history sources" list) which states The PDP-11 has a 1M byte fixed-head disk, used for file system storage and swapping, four moving-head disk drives which each provide 2.5M bytes on removable disk cartridges, and a single moving-head disk drive which uses removable 40M byte disk packs. [...] In our installation, for example, the root directory resides on the fixed-head disk, and the large disk drive, which con- tains user's files, is mounted by the system initialization program And considering this, the "ran ouf of space and mindlessly duplicated all the stuff onto a new disk" hypothesis is at least questionable when considering this as the 'fixed head disk' was a small, expensive, 'high-performance' storage device and the moving head disk a large, cheap and slow one. Which suggests functional reasons for the split: Keep the stuff needed by everyone (and the swap space) on the fast disk and use the slower one for 'individual users files'. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:06:24 -0600 Nate Bargmann wrote: > Snicker. What next, naming partitions 'C', 'D', etc.? Rolls eyes. Some time ago after having read this [*] Wired article, I joked that Redmond and Redhat have merged and Poettering is in possession of the Windows source code. I'm still not sure, if this idea is too ridiculous to be true... Florian [*] http://www.wired.com/2015/04/microsoft-open-source-windows-definitely-possible/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
Le 05/01/2016 15:59, Rob Owens a écrit : I have customers who use a shared /usr among several zLinux systems, and the reason is cost savings. For my information: They don't share rootfs? How do they manage package upgrade? Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] netman-autostart_0.1.1
Hi Aitor, Sorry for taking so long to resume work on netman. At the moment I am trying to apply your netman debconf patch. However, git apply --index ../aitor/debconf-41822e0-27.12.2015.patch is failing complaining that: ../aitor/debconf-41822e0-27.12.2015.patch:10: trailing whitespace. #!/bin/sh -e ../aitor/debconf-41822e0-27.12.2015.patch:23: trailing whitespace. . /usr/share/debconf/confmodule ../aitor/debconf-41822e0-27.12.2015.patch:33: trailing whitespace. db_version 2.0 ../aitor/debconf-41822e0-27.12.2015.patch:34: trailing whitespace. #db_capb backup ../aitor/debconf-41822e0-27.12.2015.patch:35: trailing whitespace. db_capb escape error: patch failed: debian/netman-gui.postinst:1 error: debian/netman-gui.postinst: patch does not apply What is wrong? I opened the patch with medit to view the offending characters. In case understanding the cause of this issue an unjustied long time, I can always apply the patch manually by editing text directly. Edward On 27/12/2015, aitor_czr wrote: > Hi all, > > On 12/27/2015 02:40 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Thanks Aitor. At the moment, I am exercising my maintainer's skills on >> a simple package I created but that I didn't upload. This is to >> sharpen my skills so that I avoid stupid mistakes with git while at >> the same time, I learn. >> >> Edward > > I pushed to gitlab the latest version with *debconf*: > > https://git.devuan.org/aitor_czr/netman/branches > > I will repeat the proccess: > > $ git clone https://git.devuan.org/aitor_czr/netman.git > > $ cd netman > > $ pristine-tar checkout ../netman_0.1.1-41822e0.orig.tar.bz2 > pristine-tar: successfully generated ../netman_0.1.1-41822e0.orig.tar.bz2 > > $ git-buildpackage -tc --git-export-dir="../build-area" > --git-pristine-tar --git-tag --git-ignore-branch > > Cheers, > > Aitor. > > > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
On Tue, Jan 05, 2016 at 03:29:30PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote: [cut] > In our installation, for example, the root directory resides > on the fixed-head disk, and the large disk drive, which con- > tains user's files, is mounted by the system initialization > program > > And considering this, the "ran ouf of space and mindlessly duplicated > all the stuff onto a new disk" hypothesis is at least questionable when > considering this as the 'fixed head disk' was a small, expensive, > 'high-performance' storage device and the moving head disk a large, > cheap and slow one. Which suggests functional reasons for the split: > Keep the stuff needed by everyone (and the swap space) on the fast disk > and use the slower one for 'individual users files'. > I am not that old but, on top of that, we should remember here that in the beginning /usr also contained the home directories of users. This fact, coupled with the observation that programs in /usr/bin/ in general were not installation-dependent, made the case for a separate /usr/ My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
Le 05/01/2016 16:29, Rainer Weikusat a écrit : Didier Kryn writes: >Le 02/01/2016 03:44, Stephanie Daugherty a écrit : >>Regardless of who proposed it, merged /usr is still a reckless change >that needlessly complicates things. > > > Hey Stephanie. > > The simple fact of splitting executables between two different >directories*is* a complication; merging them back would be a >*simplification* :-). I've read, from a guy who followed the story, >that it was originally split because the first disk was too >small. Quoting something Rob Landley (who has certainly no more experience with stuff that happened in the first half of the 1970s than I do and possibly less) wrote as gospel is not such a good idea. There's a paper by Dennis Richtie, "The UNIX Time-Sharing System" published in 1974 (AFAICT, it's not on Landley's "list of computer history sources" list) which states The PDP-11 has a 1M byte fixed-head disk, used for file system storage and swapping, four moving-head disk drives which each provide 2.5M bytes on removable disk cartridges, and a single moving-head disk drive which uses removable 40M byte disk packs. [...] In our installation, for example, the root directory resides on the fixed-head disk, and the large disk drive, which con- tains user's files, is mounted by the system initialization program And considering this, the "ran ouf of space and mindlessly duplicated all the stuff onto a new disk" hypothesis is at least questionable when considering this as the 'fixed head disk' was a small, expensive, 'high-performance' storage device and the moving head disk a large, cheap and slow one. Which suggests functional reasons for the split: Keep the stuff needed by everyone (and the swap space) on the fast disk and use the slower one for 'individual users files'. Good find Rainer. But I don't fully understand what you mean by: Keep the stuff needed by everyone (and the swap space) on the fast disk and use the slower one for 'individual users files'. Do you mean the applications in /usr/bin aren't used by everyone? Or they don't deserve to be launched quickly? For me the only reason why they were not on the small fast disk is that this disk was full, ant it was full because it was small. Therefore, maybe Rob Landley is giving wrong details (or he refers to a later setup), but the reason he gives for the split makes full sense. I'm not denying that the necessity, or an advantage, of a split has persisted for decades. On the contrary, I find it interesting to know that this necessity showed up at the very begining. The split is a complication; and a complication should only exist for a good reason. Therefore I think it is a sane attitude to question this good reason. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] GNOME3 and Co.
>I'm sure M$ has a good answer to this question. >And GNOME has a registry, too, which is a very good thing to have, I was told >;-) Xfce has it as well but it is far from Windows' registry (though I am not familiar with Windows at all), it is simply a programme to manage XML configuration files that are responsible mostly for look-and-feel. if I understand anything. >BSD will have a systemd-emulator sooner or later, just something like >linuxulator now. Unless there will be software that relies on systemd and can't work without it, they won't. Mitt___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] On reading ancient threads.
On Tue, Jan 05, 2016 at 02:32:47PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 05/01/2016 14:30, Didier Kryn a écrit : > >Le 08/11/2015 16:51, Haines Brown a écrit : > >>Some people (but not I) might recommend LyX as a compromise. > > > >Lyx is not for newbies. It's convenient for experienced LaTeX > >users because they can understand what they are doing. > > > >Didier > > > >_ > > Sorry for the noise, Icedove pointed me far in the past to an > apparently unread email and I replied. Nothing wrong with replies to an ancient post. The problem is with messageing agents that hide ancient threads because they sort by strating date rather than date of last message. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuringminimalism
On Sun, Nov 08, 2015 at 09:30:04AM -0500, Patrice Remy wrote: > After the reboot (half way through the instructions), those with a > Wifi network card won't be able to continue (install xfce4, and so > on...) because they won't be in x-windows anymore, and the > network-manager app needs x-windows to work, ergo, no internet > connection :( Which netowrk manager? The new one written for us, or the old one? If the new one, maybe it's time for curses front end as well as a GTK one? -- hendrik > > On 2015-11-03 20:51, dev1fanboy wrote: > > Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism. > > > > There are a lot of people talking about minimalism in Devuan and some > > may be wondering if they can upgrade to Devuan. The answer is yes, you > > can upgrade to Devuan right now and expect it to work with few if any > > problems in the stable branch - which is not yet announced stable but > > is clearly a lot better than alpha quality as you might have heard > > mentioned on devuan.org. I am currently putting in a little research > > before writing a more full guide to upgrading, installing and getting > > more minimalism out of Devuan. Hopefully I will be starting a wiki for > > all this info and more to go into in the near future, but for now I > > want to just put it out there for people trying to upgrade their > > current system or get more minimalism in their system. > > > > Let's get started. > > > > > > 1) Upgrading Debian to Devuan Stable (aka Jessie 1.0) > > > > You can upgrade to Devuan Jessie 1.0 from either Debian Wheezy or from > > Debian Jessie. For other branches you are on your own for now, and I > > suggest avoiding upgrades to Devuan testing (ascii) for now until after > > the official stable release. > > > > First simply open a terminal and type: > > > > user@debian:~$ sudo -s > > > > Enter your user password. > > > > Or if sudo is not available: > > > > user@debian:~$ su > > > > Enter your root password. > > > > Now we can continue with the upgrade. You need to edit the sources.list > > configuration file so that apt will be getting packages only from the > > devuan mirror (there is just one for now): > > > > root@debian:~# nano /etc/apt/sources.list > > > > Comment out ALL current lines in your sources.list and add the Devuan > > mirror with the Jessie (stable) branch. This is roughly how it should > > look: > > > > #deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy main > > deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie main > > > > Now we need to get the devuan keyring from the repoistory so we can > > authenticate packages: > > > > root@debian:~# apt-get update > > root@debian:~# apt-get install devuan-keyring > > > > Many people coming over to Devuan will be hoping to escape the web of > > systemd in the process - if this is your choice you need to specify > > your init system now before you proceed. I will be using sysvinit in > > this example as it is what I have tested - systemd init will be removed > > if present: > > > > root@debian:~# apt-get install sysvinit-core > > > > The base-files package will be installed automatically in the case of > > an upgrade from Debian Wheezy, but it has been reported that this > > package will need to be selected manually when upgrading from Jessie. > > Either way we can do this now: > > > > root@debian:~# apt-get install base-files > > > > Start the system upgrade with: > > > > root@debian:~# apt-get dist-upgrade > > > > Depending on your connection speed it could take a while, grab yourself > > a drink. > > > > Once finished you will be using Devuan GNU/Linux 1. > > > > Do some optional cleaning up: > > > > root@devuan:~# apt-get autoremove --purge > > root@devuan:~# apt-get autoclean > > > > The first command will remove any 'orphaned' dependencies from your > > previous install including unwanted configurations for those packages. > > I highly recommend this because it's good security practice. The second > > command clears up all cached packages except for those that are > > installed on the running system, reclaiming a little disk space. > > > > Now you should simply reboot so that you are using the kernel shipped > > with Devuan: > > > > root@devuan:~# reboot > > > > If in the upgrade process gnome was removed do not panic, the reason > > for this is it depends on systemd and you have opted for sysvinit. The > > default desktop environment in Devuan is XFCE: > > > > root@devuan:~# apt-get install xfce4 > > > > Check that you can start your desktop environment: > > > > root@devuan:~# su - username > > user@devuan:~$ startxfce4 > > > > If it all works you can add a display manager safely for when you next > > reboot: > > > > root@devuan:~# apt-get install slim > > > > > > 2) Configure minimalism in the system > > > > Thanks to a tip given to me by a fellow minimalist from #debianfork > > (unnamed for now until I talk to them) you will be able to debloat your > > system in a very neat way. This is completely optional and may be done
[DNG] restarts
On Tue, Jan 05, 2016 at 09:51:22AM -0500, Rob Owens wrote: > > The problem is that the people behind this merge are inexperienced as system > admins. Being a good programmer does not by itself qualify a person to > decide on the types of changes they are proposing. You need to be an > experienced system admin if you are going to make smart changes to the > underlying layers of an operating system. > > This applies to what they are doing with systemd as well. And I can give a > simple example that illustrates the inexperience of the systemd architect(s): > > If I want to stop a service, then do some operation (edit a config file, > perhaps), then start that service, I need to run the following commands: > > systemctl stop someservice > vi someservice.cfg > systemctl start someservice > > The systemctl syntax are in nice English language order. It sounds like a > sentence. But it is backwards if you consider the steps a sysadmin would > take to type them: > > systemctl stop someservice > > > > start > > > Or just re-type the whole line -- it's probably quicker. > > If they had done it right: > > systemctl someservice stop > > > start > > > An experienced sysadmin who has to do this type of thing several times a > day would have designed this syntax for ease of use. The systemd > developers did not do this, presumably because they do not have to type > these commands several times a day. I would normally have edited the configuration file andd *then* sent a sighup. /etc/init.d/someservice restart. Is there some reason, som e corner case, why what I'm doing is wrong? Aside from not using systemd, of course. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
On Tue, Jan 05, 2016 at 04:52:07PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 05/01/2016 15:59, Rob Owens a écrit : > >I have customers who use a shared /usr among several zLinux > >systems, and the reason is cost savings. > For my information: They don't share rootfs? How do they manage > package upgrade? I've been wondering for ages how to do packaage upgrade when /usr is shared, but not any of the normally writable filesystem. -- hendrik > > Didier > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:51:22 -0500 (EST) Rob Owens wrote: [too much typing] > An experienced sysadmin who has to do this type of thing several > times a day would have designed this syntax for ease of use. The > systemd developers did not do this, presumably because they do not > have to type these commands several times a day. I think they have a so-called "mouse" to do that. Google for computer mouse images to see what the thing looks like :) R. -- richard lucassen http://contact.xaq.nl/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
Didier Kryn writes: [...] >>> I've read, from a guy who followed the story,that it was originally >>> split because the first disk was too >>> small. [...] >> There's a paper by Dennis Richtie, "The UNIX Time-Sharing System" [...] >> The PDP-11 has a 1M byte fixed-head disk, used for file system >> storage and swapping, four moving-head disk drives which each >> provide 2.5M bytes on removable disk cartridges, and a single >> moving-head disk drive which uses removable 40M byte disk packs. >> >> [...] >> >> In our installation, for example, the root directory resides >> on the fixed-head disk, and the large disk drive, which con- >> tains user's files, is mounted by the system initialization >> program >> [...] >> Which suggests functional reasons for the split: Keep the stuff >> needed by everyone (and the swap space) on the fast disk and use the >> slower one for 'individual users files'. > > Good find Rainer. But I don't fully understand what you mean by: >> Keep the stuff needed by everyone (and the swap space) on the fast disk >> and use the slower one for 'individual users files'. > > Do you mean the applications in /usr/bin aren't used by everyone? > Or they don't deserve to be launched quickly? The main use of the original /usr was "store user home directories", ie, files users were working with, including "less universally useful programs". > For me the only reason why they were not on the small fast disk is > that this disk was full, ant it was full because it was small. > Therefore, maybe Rob Landley is giving wrong details (or he refers to > a later setup), but the reason he gives for the split makes full > sense. Looking somewhat further into available source, "The Evolution of the Unix Time-sharing System" (Ritchie, 1979) says that During the last half of 1971, we supported three typists from the Patent department, who spent the day busily typing, editing, and formatting patent applications[*], and meanwhile tried to carry on our own work. Unix has a reputation for supplying interesting services on modest hard- ware, and this period may mark a high point in the benefit/equipment ratio; on a machine with no memory protection and a single .5 MB disk, every test of a new program required care and boldness, because it could easily crash the system, and every few hours' work by the typists meant pushing out more information onto DECtape, because of the very small disk. The experiment was trying but successful [...] we achieved sufficient credibility to convince our own management to acquire one of the first PDP 11/45 systems made. We have accumulated much hardware since then There's also a "Notes for a UNIX talk ca 1972". Unfortunately, I don't have a local copy of that, it's also not part of Landley's "sources" and what used to be "Dennis Ritchie's homepage" is - at best - intermittently accessible nowadays but I this 'UNIX(*) talk' refers to the 11/45 installations and talks about "a fast, fixed-head system disk" and a "large, slower, moving head disk [mounted at /usr]" where all the users' files are kept Considering the expierence with using a shared, even smaller disk with the first PDP-11 installation, it seems very probable that the 11/45 was meant to be used with a "large" (and fairly cheap) "user disk" to begin with, in order to get around the need to reload loads of stuff from tape whenever a new user wanted to use the machine. [*] 'Typing patent applications' using ed and nroff, doubtlessly happy with how user-friendly this system was when compared to a typewriter. Is is clerks or programmers who degenerated so much since then? :->> ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] PAM usage (Was: Giving Devuan sans-initramfs capabilities)
Teodoro Santoni: > 2016-01-05 12:28 GMT+01:00, Karl Hammar : > > And what has "how to login" to do with "how to boot" ? > > It's easier to > * avoid hacks in the login process if your software controls > everything from the power button to the session; I don't understand you. Don't we already control everything from secondary bootloader to login ? Or do you want one binary to handle all that ? > * get away with "your OS will die without my software!!!" if nobody > knows how to authenticate in non-keyboard ways without it. I haven't done it the non-keyboard way, so I cannot comment on that. You could perhaps provide some highlights. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Giving Devuan sans-initramfs capabilities
Rainer Weikusat: ... > The sensible way to handle this is really "the distribution ships a > kernel which optionally supports everything" (via aggressive > modularization) and people who think they want/ need more control over > this part of the system can change that as they see fit (by compiling a > custom kernel). Insofar someone feels his custom kernel is of more > general use than just "run on this machine", the configuration could be > shared via internet. It's even failrly easy to share the kernel itself: > I posted a script I've been using since 1998 to build kernels for > different machines on a dedicated one and for someone who likes "shot > from behind trough the chest right into the eye" constructions, there's > always kernel-package for creating custom-kernel Debian packages. Building the kernel is easy, tools are provided (later kernels have a deb-pkg target), choosing configuration is the hard part. Would it be sensible for devuan to set up a user contrib site where one can upload kerlnels and or configs, together with reasons why that config is choosen ? Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] PAM usage
Rainer Weikusat: ... > But the UNIX(*)-filesystem namespace is supposed to be > device-independent and in absence of the special case of 'software > needed to boot the system', no two directories are required to reside on > the same physical device. That's a fundamental property of the system > which exists completely indepedently of someone's inability (or > unwillingness) to imagine of something this could be good for. ... It is important to respect that, trust the local root user, don't decide for him or her. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] PAM usage
k...@aspodata.se writes: > Teodoro Santoni: >> 2016-01-05 12:28 GMT+01:00, Karl Hammar : >> > And what has "how to login" to do with "how to boot" ? >> >> It's easier to >> * avoid hacks in the login process if your software controls >> everything from the power button to the session; > > I don't understand you. > Don't we already control everything from secondary bootloader to login > ? Technically, yes. But without employing signed binaries whose signatures are checked before proceeding to the next step in the sequence, starting with UEFI restricted boot, users could easily replace any of the software and 'unapproved' 3rd party developers could even distribute compiled applications others could readily use. Since "the days of the PC as an open architecture" are to come to an end (because Bill Gates wants that or originally wanted that), such a situation cannot be allowed to continue. Imagine how insecure all of this is! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] restarts
Hendrik Boom wrote: >> An experienced sysadmin who has to do this type of thing several times a >> day would have designed this syntax for ease of use. The systemd >> developers did not do this, presumably because they do not have to type >> these commands several times a day. > > I would normally have edited the configuration file andd *then* sent a > sighup. /etc/init.d/someservice restart. > > Is there some reason, som > e corner case, why what I'm doing is wrong? > Aside from not using systemd, of course. For config files, editing /etc/network/interfaces before downing an I/F can cause issues when the definition doesn't match what's running. But there are other files which are written to by the process, but may need editing. Examples I know of are BIND zone files when dynamic updates are in use*, and ISC DHCP lease files. * And you don't want all the typing, and looking up because you can't remember the syntax, of using "rndc freeze ..." and "rndc unfreeze ..." ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
On Tue, 05 Jan 2016 18:06:08 +, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Didier Kryn writes: > > [...] > I've read, from a guy who followed the story,that it was originally split because the first disk was too small. > > [...] > >> Good find Rainer. But I don't fully understand what you mean by: >>> Keep the stuff needed by everyone (and the swap space) on the fast disk >>> and use the slower one for 'individual users files'. >> >> Do you mean the applications in /usr/bin aren't used by everyone? >> Or they don't deserve to be launched quickly? > > The main use of the original /usr was "store user home directories", ie, > files users were working with, including "less universally useful > programs". > [...] > There's also a "Notes for a UNIX talk ca 1972". Unfortunately, I don't > have a local copy of that, it's also not part of Landley's "sources" and > what used to be "Dennis Ritchie's homepage" is - at best - > intermittently accessible nowadays but I this 'UNIX(*) talk' refers to > the 11/45 installations and talks about "a fast, fixed-head system disk" > and a "large, slower, moving head disk [mounted at /usr]" > > where all the users' files are kept You have a good memory. Only for the record, the exact quote reads: It is also possible for the directory hierarchy to be split across several devices. Thus the system can store a directory, and all [files] and directories lower than it in the hierarchy, on a device other than the one on which the root is stored. In particular, in our own version of the system, there is a directory "/usr" which contains all user's directories, and which is stored on a relatively large, but slow moving head disk, while the othe files are on the fast but small fixed-head disk. [Ref: https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/notes.html] The DMR page seems to be fairly stable, since he returned from main(). [...] > [*] 'Typing patent applications' using ed and nroff, doubtlessly happy > with how user-friendly this system was when compared to a > typewriter. Is is clerks or programmers who degenerated so much > since then? :->> Now, /that/ made my day, and in more than one way! :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Clarke Sideroad writes: > > So I've been thinking more about this as to why? > > > > It is quite obvious that it is driven by Redhat to be the same as Oracle > > Solaris, they say as much. > > That's "quite obviously" an after-the-fact justification and the > corresponding freedesktop.org text, > > http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/separate-usr-is-broken/ > > (still) quite plainly states that udev (it names no other examples) is > developed based on the assumption that / and /usr reside on the same > device and that any bug reports regarding this are WONTFIXes. IOW, > that's a policy decision certain people originally made for "their > systems" which is now forced on everybody else. Reading the above link, and also this discussion http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/ it appears there are two aspects considered: 1. Merging the longstanding directories for executables: /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/sbin 2. Making libraries in /usr/lib and friends available at boot time. Gobo Linux, to take one example, has been doing the first since its inception. Executables are left in the original build directory, and symlinked to /bin. The same approach with libraries, so that packages can be uninstalled by simply removing the directory, and cleaning the symlinks. With it easy to have a rescue system on disk or CD, or thumbdrive, having statically linked executables may not as important as it used to be. Regarding the second, having more stuff available at boot is obviously convenient, and the young guys coding are not beholden to the old Unix/Debian ways, don't feel obligated to support the old ways. I, for one, prefer to avoid the churn of a continuous stream of changes. Today it is funny to look for help on a subject, see top responses that are systemd-specific. cheers, Joel -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
- Original Message - > From: "Didier Kryn" > Le 05/01/2016 15:59, Rob Owens a écrit : >> I have customers who use a shared /usr among several zLinux >> systems, and the reason is cost savings. > For my information: They don't share rootfs? How do they manage > package upgrade? I just spoke to some coworkers and I have to revise my story a bit. The short answer is I don't know if these particular customers share the entire rootfs, just /usr, or some subset of /usr. There are mainframes that are used to host thousands of zLinux systems. For example, they may provide web servers to customers. In this scenario, they will attempt to share as much disk as possible between systems. The shared disk will typically be read-only on all systems except for one (perhaps a management system which is used to perform updates). Each system of course needs some read-write space, but the more shared disk it can utilize, the better (because that is cheaper and easier to manage). So are they sharing /usr and owning individual root filesystems? I'm not sure what these particular customers are doing. I can imagine scenarios where having that ability would be beneficial, but I'm not sure if these customers are actually doing it. I do know that they make heavy use of read-only disk sharing, and that taking two separate directories and dumping them into one will reduce granularity, which can make it more difficult to optimize disk sharing. -Rob ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
- Original Message - > From: "richard lucassen" > On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:51:22 -0500 (EST) > Rob Owens wrote: > > [too much typing] > >> An experienced sysadmin who has to do this type of thing several >> times a day would have designed this syntax for ease of use. The >> systemd developers did not do this, presumably because they do not >> have to type these commands several times a day. > > I think they have a so-called "mouse" to do that. Google for > computer mouse images to see what the thing looks like :) Ha! Yes, I'm sure that is how they do it. Probably VNC'ing from their Macbooks. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] PAM usage (Was: Giving Devuan sans-initramfs capabilities)
2016-01-05 19:55 GMT+01:00, k...@aspodata.se : > Teodoro Santoni: >> It's easier to >> * avoid hacks in the login process if your software controls >> everything from the power button to the session; > > I don't understand you. > Don't we already control everything from secondary bootloader to login ? > Or do you want one binary to handle all that ? I personally don't want it. I think that fragmentation and extreme bikeshedding are what make FOSSies beautiful. You asked and I answered, isn't that what systemd does (embrace everything, force some behaviour devs love and control everything else)? >> * get away with "your OS will die without my software!!!" if nobody >> knows how to authenticate in non-keyboard ways without it. > > I haven't done it the non-keyboard way, so I cannot comment on that. > You could perhaps provide some highlights. I've given examples in the first post: smart card logins, single sign on, permissions granted without group/users or through hardware like TPM. I'm asking if someone use PAMs daily, because I suspect that I can answer "patch any kind of strange permission code away, everywhere" to the "how can I waste my time and work happily with Linux OSes installed on my pc without any trace of systemd code but have cups and other goodies?" question. And was curious about your experience, hence the thread. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
On Tue, Jan 05, 2016 at 09:20:31AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: > Rainer Weikusat wrote: > > Clarke Sideroad writes: > > > So I've been thinking more about this as to why? > > > > > > It is quite obvious that it is driven by Redhat to be the same as Oracle > > > Solaris, they say as much. > > > > That's "quite obviously" an after-the-fact justification and the > > corresponding freedesktop.org text, > > > > http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/separate-usr-is-broken/ > > > > (still) quite plainly states that udev (it names no other examples) is > > developed based on the assumption that / and /usr reside on the same > > device and that any bug reports regarding this are WONTFIXes. IOW, > > that's a policy decision certain people originally made for "their > > systems" which is now forced on everybody else. > > Reading the above link, and also this discussion > > http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/ > > it appears there are two aspects considered: > > 1. Merging the longstanding directories for executables: /bin /sbin /usr/bin > /usr/sbin > 2. Making libraries in /usr/lib and friends available at boot time. > > Gobo Linux, to take one example, has been doing the first > since its inception. Executables are left in the original > build directory, and symlinked to /bin. The same approach > with libraries, so that packages can be uninstalled by > simply removing the directory, and cleaning the symlinks. And there's even a handy command for managing this: stow. And it's even a package in the devuan repositories! -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Giving Devuan sans-initramfs capabilities
On 06/01/16 07:55, k...@aspodata.se wrote: > Rainer Weikusat: > ... >> The sensible way to handle this is really "the distribution ships a >> kernel which optionally supports everything" (via aggressive >> modularization) and people who think they want/ need more control over >> this part of the system can change that as they see fit (by compiling a >> custom kernel). Insofar someone feels his custom kernel is of more >> general use than just "run on this machine", the configuration could be >> shared via internet. It's even failrly easy to share the kernel itself: >> I posted a script I've been using since 1998 to build kernels for >> different machines on a dedicated one and for someone who likes "shot >> from behind trough the chest right into the eye" constructions, there's >> always kernel-package for creating custom-kernel Debian packages. > > Building the kernel is easy, tools are provided (later kernels have a > deb-pkg target), choosing configuration is the hard part. > > Would it be sensible for devuan to set up a user contrib site where one > can upload kerlnels and or configs, together with reasons why that > config is choosen ? > Sure, how about talk.devuan.org -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
Le 05/01/2016 19:06, Rainer Weikusat a écrit : During the last half of 1971, we supported three typists from the Patent department, who spent the day busily typing, editing, and formatting patent applications[*], and meanwhile tried to carry on our own work. Unix has a reputation for supplying interesting services on modest hard- ware, and this period may mark a high point in the benefit/equipment ratio; on a machine with no memory protection and a single .5 MB disk, every test of a new program required care and boldness, because it could easily crash the system, and every few hours' work by the typists meant pushing out more information onto DECtape, because of the very small disk. I remember DECtape. The first computer on which I seriously worked and developped Data Aquisition programs was a PDP15, equipped with one or two DECtape drives. These were large and rather short tapes which were formatted like disks. It was fun to watch the tape moving nervously back and forth between the two small wheels. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian
Le 05/01/2016 20:25, Rob Owens a écrit : - Original Message - From: "Didier Kryn" Le 05/01/2016 15:59, Rob Owens a écrit : I have customers who use a shared /usr among several zLinux systems, and the reason is cost savings. For my information: They don't share rootfs? How do they manage package upgrade? I just spoke to some coworkers and I have to revise my story a bit. The short answer is I don't know if these particular customers share the entire rootfs, just /usr, or some subset of /usr. There are mainframes that are used to host thousands of zLinux systems. For example, they may provide web servers to customers. In this scenario, they will attempt to share as much disk as possible between systems. The shared disk will typically be read-only on all systems except for one (perhaps a management system which is used to perform updates). Each system of course needs some read-write space, but the more shared disk it can utilize, the better (because that is cheaper and easier to manage). So are they sharing /usr and owning individual root filesystems? I'm not sure what these particular customers are doing. I can imagine scenarios where having that ability would be beneficial, but I'm not sure if these customers are actually doing it. I do know that they make heavy use of read-only disk sharing, and that taking two separate directories and dumping them into one will reduce granularity, which can make it more difficult to optimize disk sharing. -Rob I have installed farms of diskless single-board computers. Each group shares the Debian Wheezy OS installed on an NFS server. Most files and directories must be shared but some must not: /run and parts of /var/lib. It is delicate and tricky to craft which subdirectory of /var/lib is shared and which is not. /etc/resolv.conf is symlinked to a file in /run which is created during the initramfs step. In principle resolv.conf could be shared because they are all in the same LAN, but this configuration avoids overwriting continuously the same file. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] upgrade to devuan
Hi, On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 5:24 AM, aitor_czr wrote: > Hi Vicente, > > On 01/05/2016 10:58 AM, Vicente Vera wrote: > > AFAIK installing devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan1_all.deb is pretty much > the same as modifying sources.list by hand. I chose 0.6.4+devuan1 > because--correct me if I'm wrong: > > 0.6.4+devuan1 = jessie > 0.6.4+devuan2 = ascii > 0.6.4+devuan3 = ceres > > Thanks > > > I don't think so... > > Increasing from devuan1 to devuan2 means changes in the debian branch of the > package (instead of the upstream branch, i.e. the sources). So, different > versions of the package don't belong *necessarily* to different releases of > the system. > > Cheers, > > Aitor. This was discussed in the thread "devuan-baseconf package versions and repositories" started by Vicente on 11/12/15 to which Jaromil responded. I was having a little problem following his answer, so hopefully I'm not quoting this out of context: "the progression you show is mostly following the setup and testing done in development phase of all three release series, one by one, ..." I believe Aitor's interpretation is correct. You may want to check the thread yourself. Jim ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] netman-autostart_0.1.1
Hi, Since I received no replies I will attempt a manual edit of netman-gui.postinst keeping debconf-41822e0-27.12.2015.patch as a guide. Trying to persuade the patching software to accept the patch is more likely to be time consuming, therefore, I am opting to do a manual edit. Edward On 05/01/2016, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi Aitor, > > Sorry for taking so long to resume work on netman. At the moment I am > trying to apply your netman debconf patch. However, git apply --index > ../aitor/debconf-41822e0-27.12.2015.patch is failing complaining that: > > ../aitor/debconf-41822e0-27.12.2015.patch:10: trailing whitespace. > #!/bin/sh -e > ../aitor/debconf-41822e0-27.12.2015.patch:23: trailing whitespace. > . /usr/share/debconf/confmodule > ../aitor/debconf-41822e0-27.12.2015.patch:33: trailing whitespace. > db_version 2.0 > ../aitor/debconf-41822e0-27.12.2015.patch:34: trailing whitespace. > #db_capb backup > ../aitor/debconf-41822e0-27.12.2015.patch:35: trailing whitespace. > db_capb escape > error: patch failed: debian/netman-gui.postinst:1 > error: debian/netman-gui.postinst: patch does not apply > > What is wrong? I opened the patch with medit to view the offending > characters. In case understanding the cause of this issue an unjustied > long time, I can always apply the patch manually by editing text > directly. > > Edward > > On 27/12/2015, aitor_czr wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> On 12/27/2015 02:40 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Thanks Aitor. At the moment, I am exercising my maintainer's skills on >>> a simple package I created but that I didn't upload. This is to >>> sharpen my skills so that I avoid stupid mistakes with git while at >>> the same time, I learn. >>> >>> Edward >> >> I pushed to gitlab the latest version with *debconf*: >> >> https://git.devuan.org/aitor_czr/netman/branches >> >> I will repeat the proccess: >> >> $ git clone https://git.devuan.org/aitor_czr/netman.git >> >> $ cd netman >> >> $ pristine-tar checkout ../netman_0.1.1-41822e0.orig.tar.bz2 >> pristine-tar: successfully generated ../netman_0.1.1-41822e0.orig.tar.bz2 >> >> $ git-buildpackage -tc --git-export-dir="../build-area" >> --git-pristine-tar --git-tag --git-ignore-branch >> >> Cheers, >> >> Aitor. >> >> >> >> > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
