Re: [DNG] Ian Murdock
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/31/2015 12:25 AM, Go Linux wrote: > Perhaps Devuan should consider dedicating the Beta to Ian? I think it would be fitting if Devuan dedicated their first official release to him. R.I.P. Ian, you have inspired us all through your work and life. :-( -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJWhOEXAAoJEIeCTMxZltMWRZoQAIl6+QKgUEmkRB4w0FsoYFsT ZP3geUlGtsprvYwKE+T/zmWCrpf7gsguP+KnSq9gEGw7WkhAtZlDw6THeI4fxPUl OdG5bfL1FwubTdLdIgVh94KO0uSdo746PDut1rQxWp3b6hgknGDP06akM4xrUtl+ OchHRgewsCk0XzZFhOtU+0EO/R6QxWNfxx0RgfSG9qcLam9O604H+KOUH3Pr0pVz C4/HDeapLjjSkJXUFkkaMa2CMm4Whf5e6nFFiVeA31sLiICb2cKCASJ11qDlr7z2 BzYSNR4tfWe2P00KxfBFyL1S9Glv7UQ/ZgvXIGqZDezBM3wOgHvuwed/UAhNFXLd hgZHwWpKi+TU9LPHbOajbUkyHF81IHO3msn6Ueu0KjeGvnQ+GwknPMHaoUTy2lGr XolApZCEGDWBpn+XAl2Dc2YrovD8Lq2QKUnqm4KO85RC+QT9Ng54IEeyGUi2DIlI DwdQxSeHS7wq53SF7J6IkVxaW9rHGZZP0rHCNvynsSqgQQmC4APuO1TisE+p2oq4 DsV8Dn9afVAPyTpcoqh++5958jd3Tb4EA+LqvGFGGIQOVbwTMaPch2/vgEYSRjP6 fOs3qeG8CcgW3/bEPK+wBNZwVhEcfay+sKoznD28nOmxHBSJO/j4USfDzFp1hMyB 0Zm6bt8XxVgSQ57oWqSg =l+ot -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Windowmaker: was Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite
Le 31/12/2015 01:13, richard lucassen a écrit : ... And every habit is fighting for its life;-) Thanks Richard for casting this sentence. It is true for many things, text editor, programming language etc. I watched a war about endianness on an embedded-linux mailing list ~10 years ago. I didn't participate to the war, but I've my personnal preference of course :-) Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite
On 31/12/15 10:32, Steve Litt wrote: On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 19:46:03 -0300 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 22:25:53 +0100 aitor_czr wrote: I ought to like LXDE but that pcman file manager is rubbish! IMHO, YMMV etc. Do you really think so? I'm a hooligan of PCManFM :) Like you, Altor, I prefer PCManfm, and moreover think Thunar to be a piece of excrement... Cheers, Ron. Ron, Except for Thunar's hit and miss handling of media like thumb drives and CDs, do you have anything against it? Personally I like Rox as a light file manager, it has its own unique workflow which takes a little getting used to but after that it offers a GUI interface that is very usable via keyboard alongside text interfaces as well as via mouse and via touch. It has very few dependencies and also suits a tiling, mostly text interface workflow. I especially like its approach to opening items, it is easy to customise and have several options easily available. But it isn't a clone of nautilus etc, so will be unfamiliar at first sight. https://packages.debian.org/sid/x11/rox-filer Simon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite
On 29/12/15 04:37, Steve Litt wrote: On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:16:17 +0100 Your subject intrigues me. There are 2 reasons I prefer LXDE to Xfce: 1) LXDE is much lighter 2) LXDE is more reliable If you can really lighten up Xfce, that addresses #1, and probably to some extent alleviates #2. I believe lighter usually corresponds to less bugs, or else I'd be using Redhat. Or Windows. note that the raspberry pi lot worked very carefully to put together raspbian as extremely light and minimal for a very small cpu but intended to be used by linux noobies as well as others. They chose lxde, it runs with very little extra baggage and is a very familiar style of interface, the default setup is to use startx from the console only when X is required, or add it to rc.local if a desktop and monitor are wanted. No idea what they have done now they use a bigger chip and have moved on from their old default install. Simon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Windowmaker: was Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite
On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 09:10:12 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 31/12/2015 01:13, richard lucassen a écrit : > > ... And every > > habit is fighting for its life;-) > > Thanks Richard for casting this sentence. It is true for many > things, text editor, programming language etc. > > I watched a war about endianness on an embedded-linux mailing > list ~10 years ago. I didn't participate to the war, but I've my > personnal preference of course :-) That's exactly what goes wrong with systemd (or "système D", as you're French ;-) ) I'm not against systemd, not at all, if somebody wants to use it, it's ok for me. But systemd is becoming a compulsory religion. And Poettering and RedHat c.s. are fighting a jihad against the unbelievers. For the moment I still run Debian testing without systemd (WindowMaker) but I fear that this will be made impossible on the long term. Anyway, I will install Devuan on one of my machines one of these days :) R. -- ___ It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak aloud and remove all doubt. +--+ | Richard Lucassen, Utrecht| +--+ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite
On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 08:51:51AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 30/12/2015 22:06, fsmithred a écrit : > >On 12/29/2015 09:30 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >>>I installed LXDE into my devuan alpha 2 system, but I do not know how > >>>to ask for it. My system boots into a green login screen and when I log > >>>in it starts me off with xfce instead. In the old days when I ran > >>>Debian, it would start with a login screen where I could find a menu and > >>>select a window manager. > >>> > >>>I'm arguing for discoverability here. > >>> > >>>-- hendrik > >That green login screen is Slim display manager. I'm not sure what > >changed, but it's now possible to install lightdm on Devuan Jessie without > >pulling in any systemd libs. I just did it a couple hours ago, and I'm > >pretty happy about it. Whoever did whatever to fix that, thank you. > > > >At the lightdm login screen, you can choose the session you want by > >clicking on the wrench icon in the upper right corner. > > I didn't even notice this icon :-) > > But hitting F1 will let you circulate amongst the installed sessions. That works. But it isn't very discoverable. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Windowmaker: was Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite
On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 02:47:35PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 09:46:04 +0100 > richard lucassen wrote: > > > Please do not forget WindowMaker which has been a lightweight, highly > > configurable and stable wm for many years. > > > > R. > > Hi Richard, > > I've been trying to understand Windowmaker since 1999, and have failed. > That's why I didn't mention it in my list of great window managers: I > figured no Devuaners would be using it. Hi, I am a devuaner and I have been using WindowMaker (together with xmonad, on some installations) since 2000, when I left enlightenment. IMHO, there is no need to make improvements to WindowMaker, and I honestly don't understand why people find it difficult. For sure, it has nothing to do with the "Window$" way of managing the desktop, and this might be the major issue here. HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite
On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 18:32:34 -0500 Steve Litt wrote: > Except for Thunar's hit and miss handling of media like thumb drives > and CDs, do you have anything against it? I have forgotten the details, but I do remember that when I came to Debian from another distribution that used PCManfm as default, Thunar annoyed me so much that I removed it completely. It may have had to do with thunar refusing to recognize mime-types. So the solution was: # rm /usr/bin/thunar && ln -s /usr/bin/pcmanfm /usr/bin/thunar Cheers, Ron. -- I shall pass through this world but once. Any good therefore that I can do, let me do now, For I shall not pass this way again. -- Stephen Grellet -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ian Murdock
On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 05:32:12AM +0100, aitor_czr wrote: > On 12/31/2015 12:25 AM, Go Linux wrote: > >Perhaps Devuan should consider dedicating the Beta to Ian? > > They did so with debian lenny when Thiemo Seufer died. > > Aitor. I agree. I vote to dedicate the first Devuan stable to Ian. HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ian Murdock
Franco Lanza writes: > I think we should release a communicate about Ian > to celebrate him and mourn he's death. I also think so. Ciao, Micky -- The sysadmin has all the answers, expecially "No" ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ian Murdock
Go Linux writes: > Perhaps Devuan should consider dedicating the Beta to Ian? After all > Devuan it the true lineage of Debian IMO. Good idea! Ciao, Micky -- The sysadmin has all the answers, expecially "No" ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ian Murdock
I agree to both: release a communicate now and dedicate to him the first beta or stable release. Alberto On 31/12/15 10:46, Micky Del Favero wrote: Franco Lanza writes: I think we should release a communicate about Ian to celebrate him and mourn he's death. I also think so. Ciao, Micky ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ian Murdock
I support to dedicate the first stable Devuan to Ian. Not a beta which will hopefully have a shorter lifetime then stable. grtz Nick ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ian Murdock
On 2015-12-31 09:05, info at smallinnovations.nl wrote: I support to dedicate the first stable Devuan to Ian. Not a beta which will hopefully have a shorter lifetime then stable. grtz Nick +1 -- Stop slacking you lazy bum! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] PXE boot files
Hello list, Is there somewhere around an initrd.img and a vmlinuz to put on my PXE boot server in order to be able to do a netinstall from PXE? R. -- ___ It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak aloud and remove all doubt. +--+ | Richard Lucassen, Utrecht| +--+ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] PXE boot files
Richard: > Is there somewhere around an initrd.img and a vmlinuz to put on my PXE > boot server in order to be able to do a netinstall from PXE? apt-get install syslinux less /usr/share/doc/syslinux/pxelinux.txt.gz Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite
On 12/31/2015 03:47 AM, Simon Wise wrote: > > Personally I like Rox as a light file manager, it has its own unique > workflow which takes a little getting used to but after that it offers > a GUI interface that is very usable via keyboard alongside text > interfaces as well as via mouse and via touch. It has very few > dependencies and also suits a tiling, mostly text interface workflow. > I especially like its approach to opening items, it is easy to > customise and have several options easily available. > > But it isn't a clone of nautilus etc, so will be unfamiliar at first > sight. > > https://packages.debian.org/sid/x11/rox-filer > My only exposure to it is trying it as a pre-configured options in antiX 15. It is light and definitely workable. In fact I would suggest everyone give antiX a try to explore the various functional possibilities presented. It is definitely applicable as a reference as it is a Debian Jessie based distro and is without (spit) systemd. It is all about choice and looking at the choices and approaches taken can help. Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ummmm, no
On 30/12/15 23:41, Steve Litt wrote: > > I contend that Red Hat, who runs a consultancy and training, gets > richer as Linux users know less. If Linux were simple, they'd get > business only from the stupid. > Yup... > Correlationally, Red Hat pays the salary of the group of > people most responsible for the randomized duct taping of Linux > sometimes referred to as systemd. > > Still to be determined: In this case, is the correlation causational? > Still can't understand why so much stuff about systemd seems to allude to it being started as a personal project by LP & KS. Is that actually the case, or was it initiated and paid for by RH (as I suspect) ? Even on the basis that RH didn't actually pay for it at the start, having sunk funds in to it now I would say that it is undoubtedly causational :-) IMHO the vulture capitalists and marketing men saw a neat way to blindside developers and converge Linux distros to increase their market dominance and share, ultimately to flog more stuff. They are a business after all. Got to make their profit and keep their share holders happy somehow. The other thing I have long wondered is why Mr Torvalds is so quiet on systemd. I guess the answer is if he stands up and shouts too much he gets branded as a bad boy, intransigent, hampering progress et al, thereby giving RH the justification to dump his kernel in favour of systemd. Interesting times ahead methinks signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ummmm, no
>Still can't understand why so much stuff about systemd seems to allude >to it being started as a personal project by LP & KS. Is that actually >the case, or was it initiated and paid for by RH (as I suspect) ? From what I've read, systemd began as kind of hobby, a side project, and wasn't sponsored initially by RH. These chaps work in the RH's "Desktop department," thus they have less(?) ideas on how this piece of software is going to work on what we call "traditional" use of GNU/Linux. What I find ridiculous is this statement: "Our objectives: [...] Unifying pointless differences between distributions [...]" >The other thing I have long wondered is why Mr Torvalds is so quiet on >systemd. I guess the answer is if he stands up and shouts too much he >gets branded as a bad boy, intransigent, hampering progress et al, >thereby giving RH the justification to dump his kernel in favour of systemd. >Interesting times ahead methinks I reckon as long as his Fedora boots, he doesn't care. Sometimes it doesn't [1], and rants start; he refused to receive the code from Kay. [1]: http://www.networkworld.com/article/2175826/software/linus-torvalds-suspends-key-linux-developer.html Mitt___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite
On 12/28/2015 12:37 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:16:17 +0100 > aitor_czr wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On 12/28/2015 02:07 AM, Go Linux e.org wrote: >>> It's quite a long list. If you see anything in there you can live >>> without, please post to the issue on git >>> >>> #apt-cache show task-xfce-desktop >>> #apt-cache show xfce4-goodies >>> >>> dev1fanboy has a minimal list posted here: >>> >>> https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/desktop-light-list >>> >>> That might be a good place to start. This wouldn't replace the >>> full xfce desktop. It would just provide a lite alternative that >>> could be built up by the user. >>> >>> golinux >> I propose a new package 'xfce4-default-settings' to customize the >> default appearance of the desktop in devuan. I also propose alsa-oss, >> xfce4-screenshooter, transmission, medit, ristretto, evince, putty, >> xsane, searchmonkey, dmz-cursor-theme, clipman, netman (in jessie?), >> parole, xfce4-taskmanager >> >> I will write in the wiki of gitlab. >> >> Aitor. > Hi Aitor, > > Your subject intrigues me. There are 2 reasons I prefer LXDE to Xfce: > > 1) LXDE is much lighter > 2) LXDE is more reliable > > If you can really lighten up Xfce, that addresses #1, and probably to > some extent alleviates #2. I believe lighter usually corresponds to > less bugs, or else I'd be using Redhat. Or Windows. > > You mention alsa-oss and remind me of a goal in the back of my mind. > Once, with Manjaro-OpenRC, I managed to make a computer with no > PulseAudio (of course) and even no ALSA. It used OSS, and functioned > beautifully: mplayer, smplayer, youtube, it was all perfect. No dbus > need apply. I had to install an OSS compatible mixer, but that wasn't > hard. I've never been able to do that again, and think it would be a > cool option for those who want to keep entanglement to a minimum. > I like LXDE over Xfce for machines with limited resources, but when I get beyond that point Xfce gets the nod. I was worried that LXDE was going to stagnate with the advent of LXQt, but that does not appear to be the case thus far with the development pretty much parallel. What I saw once as an advantage to LXDE and LXQt was the ability to grab and run with pieces of Gnome and KDE respectively, but now it seems that without the porting of applications, which I believe is happening to some degree, that will also drag in the encumbrance of systemd. Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] PXE boot files
On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 13:55:29 +0100 (CET) k...@aspodata.se wrote: > > Is there somewhere around an initrd.img and a vmlinuz to put on my > > PXE boot server in order to be able to do a netinstall from PXE? > > apt-get install syslinux > less /usr/share/doc/syslinux/pxelinux.txt.gz I mean this, like under Debian: wget -N http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/debian-installer/amd64/initrd.gz wget -N http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/debian-installer/amd64/linux I know I can retrieve these files from the iso: http://files.devuan.org/devuan-jessie-i386-alpha2-netboot-auto.iso But it would be nice if these files were available directly from files.devuan.org... BTW, just tried to override a Debian install: $ cat /etc/issue.net Devuan GNU/Linux 1 For the moment it works perfectly well :-) OTOH: when installing from PXE (with the files from the iso, it does not seem to switch to expert mode when appending "priority=low". According to the files I find on the iso this should do the job. Anyone a hint? R. -- ___ It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak aloud and remove all doubt. +--+ | Richard Lucassen, Utrecht| +--+ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ian Murdock
Go Linux writes: > On Wed, 12/30/15, Franco Lanza wrote: > > Subject: [DNG] Ian Murdock > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Date: Wednesday, December 30, 2015, 3:01 PM > > >> I think we should release a communicate about Ian >> to celebrate him and mourn he's death. >> >> R.I.P. Ian, you are the father of devuan too. >> -- >> >> Franco (nextime) Lanza > > > > Perhaps Devuan should consider dedicating the Beta to Ian? That's going to go grossly against the tide but please consider to be so decent to avoid this and leave the "Someone died! Grand opportunity to toot our horn once more!" cheesiness to professional (or semi-professional) "PR workers". ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ian Murdock
Please excuse me, I know many of you can see this like a good tribute for Ian, but naming "Ian" to the first Devuan stable release could sound like using his name for the cause, at least for some evil-minded people. He was a big man for the Open Source community, so let him R.I.P. Please don't be mad at me, I could be wrong, it's only my point of view. Have a nice end of 2015! On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Rainer Weikusat < rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com> wrote: > Go Linux writes: > > > On Wed, 12/30/15, Franco Lanza wrote: > > > > Subject: [DNG] Ian Murdock > > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > > Date: Wednesday, December 30, 2015, 3:01 PM > > > > >> I think we should release a communicate about Ian > >> to celebrate him and mourn he's death. > >> > >> R.I.P. Ian, you are the father of devuan too. > >> -- > >> > >> Franco (nextime) Lanza > > > > > > > > Perhaps Devuan should consider dedicating the Beta to Ian? > > That's going to go grossly against the tide but please consider to be so > decent to avoid this and leave the "Someone died! Grand opportunity to > toot our horn once more!" cheesiness to professional (or > semi-professional) "PR workers". > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ian Murdock
On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 14:46:45 + Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Go Linux writes: > > > On Wed, 12/30/15, Franco Lanza wrote: > > > >> I think we should release a communicate about Ian > >> to celebrate him and mourn he's death. > >> > >> R.I.P. Ian, you are the father of devuan too. > >> -- > >> > >> Franco (nextime) Lanza > > > > > > > > Perhaps Devuan should consider dedicating the Beta to Ian? > > That's going to go grossly against the tide but please consider to be > so decent to avoid this and leave the "Someone died! Grand > opportunity to toot our horn once more!" cheesiness to professional > (or semi-professional) "PR workers". I like your attitude towards explicitly dedicating a release, someday in the future. Nevertheless I'd really appreciate to read a statement from some VUA for whom he was more than just a name among many. Regards and a good trip into a peaceful new day/year/age to everybody, Florian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Windowmaker: was Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite
On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 10:03:40 + KatolaZ wrote: > On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 02:47:35PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 09:46:04 +0100 > > richard lucassen wrote: > > > > > Please do not forget WindowMaker which has been a lightweight, > > > highly configurable and stable wm for many years. > > > > > > R. > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > I've been trying to understand Windowmaker since 1999, and have > > failed. That's why I didn't mention it in my list of great window > > managers: I figured no Devuaners would be using it. > > > Hi, > > I am a devuaner and I have been using WindowMaker (together with > xmonad, on some installations) since 2000, when I left enlightenment. > > IMHO, there is no need to make improvements to WindowMaker, and I > honestly don't understand why people find it difficult. For sure, it > has nothing to do with the "Window$" way of managing the desktop, and > this might be the major issue here. > > HND > > KatolaZ This is why I suggested that the other person (I can't find his name right now) consult me before writing docs or a presentation. Every single problem anyone could have about Windowmaker, I've had. If he can explain it to *me*, that explanation will work for *everybody*, and the great nature of Windowmaker will shine through. We all know it's good looking, we all know that it's very lightweight: What's needed is a good document to really explain the Windowmaker philosophy, how to do things in Windowmaker, how to configure it so you don't need to create a million menus to drill down, and how you set a hotkey to perform an arbitrary command (like dmenu_run). SteveT Steve Litt November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ummmm, no
On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 09:00:02 -0500 Mitt Green wrote: > What I find ridiculous is this statement: > "Our objectives: [...] Unifying pointless differences between > distributions [...]" That *is* ridiculous. So which is it: Are wall going to have rolling releases, or is every one of us going to use a version release? Will every one of us compile everything (like Gentoo does), or will absolutely none of us do that? Shall we all use OSHA approved, fully safety deviced distros like Ubuntu, or will we all go with "you asked for it, you got it" distros like Void? Should "no dependency calculations necessary" packaging systems like Slackware's be forbidden, or mandatory? Must a liberal-artsy 4th grader use the same Linux as a nuclear scientist? What about USE CASE don't these people understand? LOL SteveT Steve Litt November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] meta-comment re. build systems
I'm really not sure where to bring this up, but this seems like as good a place as any, as it's been looking for alternatives to Debian that has flagged this issue for me (other suggestions welcome). In looking at Devuan, and a few other non-systemd distros (Gentoo, FreeBSD, GUIXSD in particular), I've noticed that documentation of how to install and manage unpackaged software seems to have almost disappeared. An awful lot of distros now seem to assume that EVERYTHING is packaged. Of course, the reverse is far more common - at least that's been my experience. - developers tend to distribute source, built in their language-specific development environment, "packaged" for cross-platform building (e.g., a .tar file created using gnu autotools), or a .jar file, or what have you -- (well constructed) source generally compiles, installs, and runs cleanly [parenthetically, assuming an init system that recognizes sysvinit files!] - it's pretty rare for developers to package for more than a few, particularly popular distros (if they package at all). - when building production servers, it's a lot more reliable to "./config; make; make install" than to rely on packages (yes, for a lot of the platform stuff, packages save time, but as one goes up the stack, current packages are less common) - an awful lot of stuff uses its own dependency resolution mechanisms and repositories (e.g., perl w/ cpan) Somehow, I think this is something we need to be concerned about for Devuan; but that also seems of concern to the broader Linux (and Unix?) ecosystem. Comments, thoughts? Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Windowmaker: was Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite
On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 10:51:47AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > What's needed is a > good document to really explain the Windowmaker philosophy, how to do > things in Windowmaker, how to configure it so you don't need to > create a million menus to drill down, and how you set a hotkey to > perform an arbitrary command (like dmenu_run). I've been using WindowMaker on all my workstations and desktops since Debian 2.2 (15 years now). Here's my document: _ Right click on icon in top right corner to show launch menu for WindowMaker graphical configuration tool. Launch tool. Scroll sideways to section you want. Configure. Save. _ That's it. Older versions needed manual text editing (which I'm guessing is where the problems occurred), but in recent Debian-packaged versions the config tool works well and is extremely easy to use. First thing I do on a new WindowMaker install is reduce the icon size to 24px with the config tool. Then I set background and theme using the menu. Next I fire up the config tool again and set up menus to my taste (menu items can launch any command you'd otherwise use on the command line), disable irritating icon animations, and disable any keyboard shortcuts that conflict with those in the GUI apps I use. Done. John ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Windowmaker: was Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite
On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 06:11:15PM +, John Rigg wrote: > Right click on icon in top right corner to show launch menu for WindowMaker > graphical configuration tool. Launch tool. Scroll sideways to section you > want. Configure. Save. Forgot to add there's an online user guide at http://windowmaker.org/guide_toc.php It doesn't mention the configuration tool for some reason, but does describe how to use the window manager and how to edit the configuration files manually. John ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ummmm, no
Mitt Green wrote: > I reckon as long as his Fedora boots, he doesn't care. I think that's the key reason. Linus is concerned with the kernel - and while I suspect he has personal preferences about what is run on top of that, he's "detached" enough to take the attitude that what people want to run is up to them. Now, if people start demanding "broken" features go into the kernel to support their projects - then he's interested. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] meta-comment re. build systems
Hi Miles, et. al. As an upstream developer/maintainer and downstream user of packages both locally built and packaged, I've come to the conclusion that, at least in the case of Debian, building from source is for "those who know what they are doing." On the one hand, given the wide array of prebuilt packages available, why should anyone build from source? On the other, if one is on Stable there may well be a package that becomes unusable for reasons beyond Debian (occurred with an amateur radio package during Squeeze as I recall), yet it will not be addressed by the project (an updated backport was never provided for Squeeze as I recall). At least due to the FHS Debian has never taken steps to violate the idea that /usr/local is reserved for the local administrator. As a user of GNU Autotools in the projects I am involved in this is a good thing as this is the Autotools default destination directory. As I see it, project maintainers/developers should take care to properly document the specific installation instructions including build options in the INSTALL file included as part of an Autotools source archive tarball. As an upstream all I ask is that the distribution stay out of my way for local builds so they can be installed to expected locations in the file system or in user specified locations. I also expect distributions to provide reasonably up to date tools in their latest releases so the user can build the project successfully. That said, it is quite another thing for someone to want to take a source package and make a local binary package (.deb in our case) to be installed using the package management system. That is well beyond my scope and interest as an upstream developer and I would expect the distribution to provide timely and clear documentation and the tools for doing so. In short, as an upstream it's my job to make sure that 'configure; make; make install' "just work" and is documented and it's the distribution's job to make sure its packaging system is documented. Did I explain it well enough to see where the line of responsibility between upstream and distribution lies and their responsibility to the user? - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] meta-comment re. build systems
Nate Bargmann wrote: > Hi Miles, et. al. > > As an upstream developer/maintainer and downstream user of packages both > locally built and packaged, I've come to the conclusion that, at least > in the case of Debian, building from source is for "those who know what > they are doing." On the one hand, given the wide array of prebuilt > packages available, why should anyone build from source? On the other, > if one is on Stable there may well be a package that becomes unusable > for reasons beyond Debian (occurred with an amateur radio package during > Squeeze as I recall), yet it will not be addressed by the project (an > updated backport was never provided for Squeeze as I recall). > > At least due to the FHS Debian has never taken steps to violate the idea > that /usr/local is reserved for the local administrator. As a user of > GNU Autotools in the projects I am involved in this is a good thing as > this is the Autotools default destination directory. > > As I see it, project maintainers/developers should take care to properly > document the specific installation instructions including build options > in the INSTALL file included as part of an Autotools source archive > tarball. As an upstream all I ask is that the distribution stay out of > my way for local builds so they can be installed to expected locations > in the file system or in user specified locations. I also expect > distributions to provide reasonably up to date tools in their latest > releases so the user can build the project successfully. > > That said, it is quite another thing for someone to want to take a > source package and make a local binary package (.deb in our case) to be > installed using the package management system. That is well beyond my > scope and interest as an upstream developer and I would expect the > distribution to provide timely and clear documentation and the tools for > doing so. > > In short, as an upstream it's my job to make sure that 'configure; make; > make install' "just work" and is documented and it's the distribution's > job to make sure its packaging system is documented. Did I explain it > well enough to see where the line of responsibility between upstream and > distribution lies and their responsibility to the user? One problem with locally built software is managing dependencies. Another is being able to uninstall. I found that using the program 'checkinstall' instead of 'make install' will create and install a debian package, that you can later remove using dpkg. Cheers, Joel > - Nate > > -- > > "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all > possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." > > Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] meta-comment re. build systems
On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 13:05:46 -0500 Miles Fidelman wrote: > I'm really not sure where to bring this up, but this seems like as > good a place as any, as it's been looking for alternatives to Debian > that has flagged this issue for me (other suggestions welcome). > > > In looking at Devuan, and a few other non-systemd distros (Gentoo, > FreeBSD, GUIXSD in particular), I've noticed that documentation of > how to install and manage unpackaged software seems to have almost > disappeared. An awful lot of distros now seem to assume that > EVERYTHING is packaged. > > Of course, the reverse is far more common - at least that's been my > experience. > > - developers tend to distribute source, built in their > language-specific development environment, "packaged" for > cross-platform building (e.g., a .tar file created using gnu > autotools), or a .jar file, or what have you -- (well constructed) > source generally compiles, installs, and runs cleanly > [parenthetically, assuming an init system that recognizes sysvinit > files!] > > - it's pretty rare for developers to package for more than a few, > particularly popular distros (if they package at all). > > - when building production servers, it's a lot more reliable to > "./config; make; make install" than to rely on packages (yes, for a > lot of the platform stuff, packages save time, but as one goes up the > stack, current packages are less common) > > - an awful lot of stuff uses its own dependency resolution mechanisms > and repositories (e.g., perl w/ cpan) > > Somehow, I think this is something we need to be concerned about for > Devuan; but that also seems of concern to the broader Linux (and > Unix?) ecosystem. > > Comments, thoughts? Hi Miles, I guess I'm an "upstream", being the originator of the VimOutliner project (probably a few thousand users), the UMENU project (probably about 10 users), the Amounter project (2 confirmed users), and several less-used pieces of software. As a Developer, I'm not a fan of packaging, because from the very outset I try very hard to make my software have minimal dependencies, I try to make its dependencies universally available, and if it's C I make it cc -Wall myprogram with no errors or warnings. Except for the notoriously undeployable UMENU, my stuff goes on with a few copy commands and maybe a compile. No need to obfuscate it with a package. At the VimOutliner project, when people came to us with hopeless foobarred VimOutliner installations, then we asked them how they installed, invariably it was with their distro's package. Rather than debug the hopelessly exglomerated package results, we had them uninstall and reinstall with the tarball right off our website, following our instructions. This always either fixed the problem, or created a situation where it was easy for us to debug. As a user, of course I'm not going to hand compile LibreOffice, Sigil or Firefox (Iceweasel). My mama didn't raise no fool. But when it comes to all of djb's stuff, alternate init systems, project supervision software, or newer than newest versions of LyX, I ./configure;make;make test;make install. Again, my mama didn't raise no fool. I know that if I install djbdns (requiring daemontools and some sort of tcp plugin), I'm in for 2 to 3 hours of very carefully following a recipe, looking up a couple workarounds, and then maybe an hour of debugging. When installing djbdns from Debian packages (I tried this a couple times), I know I'm in for 6 hours of "what the heck is this stuff, and where can I find documentation specific to this setup?" Packages and package managers are a great thing. I'd never want to forego a good package manager. You'll never catch me hand-compiling Firefox. But in my opinion, sometimes you're much better off kissing the package manager goodbye for a specific app, and using ./configure;make;make test;make install, or whatever else the README or INSTALL file tells you to do. SteveT Steve Litt November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] meta-comment re. build systems
Follow-on question at the bottom On 12/31/15 3:10 PM, Steve Litt wrote: I guess I'm an "upstream", being the originator of the VimOutliner project (probably a few thousand users), the UMENU project (probably about 10 users), the Amounter project (2 confirmed users), and several less-used pieces of software. As a Developer, I'm not a fan of packaging, because from the very outset I try very hard to make my software have minimal dependencies, I try to make its dependencies universally available, and if it's C I make it cc -Wall myprogram with no errors or warnings. Except for the notoriously undeployable UMENU, my stuff goes on with a few copy commands and maybe a compile. No need to obfuscate it with a package. As a user, of course I'm not going to hand compile LibreOffice, Sigil or Firefox (Iceweasel). My mama didn't raise no fool. But when it comes to all of djb's stuff, alternate init systems, project supervision software, or newer than newest versions of LyX, I ./configure;make;make test;make install. Again, my mama didn't raise no fool. Packages and package managers are a great thing. I'd never want to forego a good package manager. You'll never catch me hand-compiling Firefox. But in my opinion, sometimes you're much better off kissing the package manager goodbye for a specific app, and using ./configure;make;make test;make install, or whatever else the README or INSTALL file tells you to do. AND... On 12/31/15 2:14 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote: Hi Miles, et. al. As an upstream developer/maintainer and downstream user of packages both locally built and packaged, I've come to the conclusion that, at least At least due to the FHS Debian has never taken steps to violate the idea that /usr/local is reserved for the local administrator. As a user of GNU Autotools in the projects I am involved in this is a good thing as this is the Autotools default destination directory. In short, as an upstream it's my job to make sure that 'configure; make; make install' "just work" and is documented and it's the distribution's job to make sure its packaging system is documented. Did I explain it well enough to see where the line of responsibility between upstream and distribution lies and their responsibility to the user? YUP - made it very clear, and I basically agree with delineation. I tend to agree with Steve re. when to use, and not use, package management (and with Joel's comment re. "checkinstall" making it easier to remove things later. A follow-up question: What, if anything, do you guys include in the way of init scripts? [My current observation is that systemd's biggest impact on my operation is that it kind of breaks some sysvinit scripts, and not a lot of people include systemd configs. Hence, my aversion to updating my current Debian installation, and why I'm looking at Devuan and a few other options for my next, and overdue, major update to our production servers.] Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ummmm, no
On 12/31/15 2:05 PM, Simon Hobson wrote: Mitt Green wrote: I reckon as long as his Fedora boots, he doesn't care. I think that's the key reason. Linus is concerned with the kernel - and while I suspect he has personal preferences about what is run on top of that, he's "detached" enough to take the attitude that what people want to run is up to them. Now, if people start demanding "broken" features go into the kernel to support their projects - then he's interested. Can you say "kdbus?" -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] meta-comment re. build systems
* On 2015 31 Dec 14:53 -0600, Miles Fidelman wrote: > YUP - made it very clear, and I basically agree with delineation. I tend to > agree with Steve re. when to use, and not use, package management (and with > Joel's comment re. "checkinstall" making it easier to remove things > later. Another good reason to monitor lists like this. I was unaware of or had forgotten its existence. I'll put it on my list of things to check for 2016. That said, I doubt it is a tool I would use when developing anything. There are too many iterations of 'make install' and 'make uninstall'. BTW, if 'make uninstall' doesn't work, I'm sure that upstream would appreciate a report. I know I would. > A follow-up question: What, if anything, do you guys include in the way of > init scripts? None, as the projects I'm involved with don't require them. There are some suggestions for Hamlib for setting up symlinks to serial ports for consistent naming with udev, but that is as far as it goes. A DX Cluster (a server system used by radio amateurs to report stations contacted or heard) client program, Xdx, I maintain has no need of init scripts as it is a GTK2 program. The third that I am contributing to at the moment, Tlf, is an amateur radio radio sport logging program that uses Ncurses and it has no need for an init script. All three are init system agnostic. > [My current observation is that systemd's biggest impact on my operation is > that it kind of breaks some sysvinit scripts, and not a lot of people > include systemd configs. Hence, my aversion to updating my current Debian > installation, and why I'm looking at Devuan and a few other options for my > next, and overdue, major update to our production servers.] ATM, my desktop and laptop are running Debian Jessie with SD simply due to Xfce and PulseAudio. Once those two are free of the SD lockin on Devuan I will switch. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] meta-comment re. build systems
On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 15:51:10 -0500 Miles Fidelman wrote: > A follow-up question: What, if anything, do you guys include in the > way of init scripts? > > [My current observation is that systemd's biggest impact on my > operation is that it kind of breaks some sysvinit scripts, and not a > lot of people include systemd configs. Hence, my aversion to > updating my current Debian installation, and why I'm looking at > Devuan and a few other options for my next, and overdue, major update > to our production servers.] I include no init scripts because most of my free software shouldn't run at boot. If I ever *did* create something that should be run at boot, I'd probably provide a run script to be run with daemontools, daemontools-encore, runit, or s6. I'm pretty sure one run script would service all of those. I would not supply a sysvinit init script because those thing are deadly, and I'm not a big fan of sysvinit anyway. I would not supply OpenRC init scripts because those things are deadly, and I don't want to get involved. NOTE: Because of my special relationship with Devuan, I'd of course help Debian's people to make a sysvinit script for my program. I might be persuaded to supply an Epoch daemon config section, with the boot and stop order defined by constants the user or distro must configure. I don't feel confident telling anyone what order their daemons should come up in, although of course I'd let them know of any other services that must be operational before mine comes online. I wouldn't supply a systemd unit file because I don't drive on that side of the street, and because the incredibly intelligent and astute systemd enthusiasts, especially the ones inhabiting debian-user, assure me that it would be trivial for them to make a unit file for my software. And you can take this to the bank: I will never, ever, EVER include in my code that silly proprietary crap to tell systemd that my service is ready for interaction. First, my stuff comes up in milliseconds, not minutes. Second, if I *were* to make a system to tell the init system that my service is ready to rock and roll, I'd either code my own that runs on ascii characters (and very few of them), or just use Laurent Bercot's method of sending a linefeed to some file or fifo or whatever. SteveT Steve Litt November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ummmm, no
* On 2015 31 Dec 14:53 -0600, Miles Fidelman wrote: > Can you say "kdbus?" That doesn't worry me much at this stage as unlike at the higher layers where SD support seems to result in support for certain other APIs being removed, the kernel has gained all sorts of features over the years that are either compile time options or modules. Given Linus' track record, I don't see kdus forcing other RPC code to be removed. Do you? The kernel operates in too many other use cases where SD is never going to be a consideration for them (RH, LP, and Co) to break it *that* badly. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
