Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
> Martijn seems to have a solution for polls, let's do that instead. > > FWIW. > > yes that is a kind offer. I do believe surveys help to choose things the > LEAN way, keeping in touch with the general sense, so yes Martijn we'll > use it. > > My pleasure, I will run something up tomorrow (packed day today) and drop a line in gitlab with the details. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
Le 27/02/2015 00:07, Joel Roth a écrit : On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 06:02:16PM -0500, Gravis wrote: > >http://www.saynotogmos.org/ss/penguins/trio.png > >ha! it just needs words like "Linux: Strut your stuff" [?] I thought of photoshopping in a jail out of which they are walking. Both cute and carrying a lot of sense. Il like it. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
Matthew Melton m...@mjmworks.co.uk KatolaZ wrote > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 07:13:38PM +, KatolaZ wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > > > Well, I agree about the necessity of having a logo, but there is no > > point into having a great brand without anything concrete behind it, > > IMHO. I believe that the most important thing at the moment is to have > > a working Devuan, not having a nice logo for it, which is something > > that will become important afterwards, when Devuan is stable and when > > it has a user base. > > > > People do not choose distributions for their logo. Otherwise I would > > have steyed with RedHat, back in the days... > > > > Just to support my point, Debian has a great logo, but this is what is > currently happening to the users of Jessie, thanks to the > systemd-nonsense: > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html Think they have found a solution after reading the followups. Reminds me that someone complained they couldn't terminate fdisk if started by systemd during boot. Might offer to help them...once I have stopped laughing of course. Ha ha. > HND > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Combatting revisionist history
В Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:25:16 + KatolaZ пишет: > I personally think that the essence of that nice post is in the very > last quote: > > "Those who don't understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, > poorly." I've another story, same way: "Whenever people did invent good (here comes its criterias) OS -- they always got UNIX." :o) Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 13:19:04 + KatolaZ пишет: > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Ста Деюс > > wrote: > > > But, at the first, what is planned to perform to protect «Devuan» > > > from the guys, that got hold of the fantastic project «Debian»? > > > In other words, if the guys come to «Devuan» and by their cruelty > > > will start to «help» some of developers to corrupt the project, > > > do abnormal, unnatural for the project things -- similar like > > > constitution of «Debian» appeared, finnaly the «systemd» was > > > forcibly set up: how we will protect our project? > > > > Very good question. > > Well the answer is simple: if such an unlikely "invasion" would > happen, we will always have the opportunity to fork Devuan, for the > good of its users :) Hmm. You see how not easy and not short is the process of creation of a new distro. To capture distro is very easy as Debian sad experience shows... and is grievous for its long time users. Why i stress the point is that our community would ponder on this wise, and may be, a decision will be thought out for such cases - when distro is not protected by army (its developers): and be used for other free distro.s, not only Devuan. The decision can be encapsulated into the development process so that easy transfer to another (new) distro will be easy and short, or its capture will be in vain and therefore may abandoned in the future. Otherwise we will be going circles - long, hard - just to get what we had already - and even that is not in long perspective. > Having said that, I personally think that there is no reason "to > protect Devuan from the [bad] guys". If we would like to do something > good for Devuan we should now focus on helping Devuan developers > making it happen, not defending them from being zombified by > unspecified members of "The Dark Power(TM)" Well. I have said my opinion. Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 04:35:47PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 04:30:39PM -0500, william moss wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA256 > > > > On 02/23/2015 04:24 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > I have a three-or-four year-old laptop on which I am replacingg the hard > > > drive. It > > > seems to be old enough not to have proper virtualisatoin hardware. It > > > currently > > > dual-boots Debian testing, and, once in a blue moon, Windows XP. > > > > > > (So far the main problems I have had is to copy Windows' three partitions > > > -- the one > > > that runs, the so-called restore partition, and the EFI partition. I'm > > > hoping that > > > grub will find a way to make the running partition bootable. I managed > > > to get > > > clonezilla to copy the three partitions (even though the EFI partition > > > seemed to > > > violate what I know of the EFI specs in that it didn't have a FAT 12, 16, > > > or 32 > > > filesystem. Maybe grub will be able to figure out how to boot what needs > > > booting.) > > Oh yes, Despite the EFI partition it is still a BIOS machine. Go figure. > > > > > > > But maybe this is the ideal time to try the iso on the new drive and try > > > it on real > > > hardware instead of a virtual machine. If things were to go > > > massively wrong, I could always put the old disk back in. > > > > > > Except I need instructions just how to do this. It does not have a CD or > > > DVD drive, > > > but will boot from USB stick. > > > > > > How do I go about putting the installation .iso onto a USB stick so it > > > will boot? > > > Debian should be good enough to accomplish that, riight? > > > > > > Or is there another installation method it might be more useful to test? > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > ___ > > > Dng mailing list > > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > > > If you insist, there is an application to do this in Linux (one for > > windows also, do not remember the name): > > unetbootin > > > > or > > > > dd if=Fully-qualified-path-to-the-image of=Raw-USB-Device > > > > for example > > dd if=/home/daffyduck/download/devian.iso of=/dev/sde Did that. Wouldn't boot. Booting with the USB stick plugged in, pressed ESC to get a boot menu, the USB stick appeared as one of the devices I could boot from, but when booting, just got a blank screen with a blinking cursor. The same as when I tried booting from my new hard drive, on which no boot sector has ever been written. Tried seeing if there was anything on the stick (after booting from my old hard drive, which still has Debian on it. It told me: root@notlookedfor:/home/hendrik# fdisk /dev/sdb Welcome to fdisk (util-linux 2.25.2). Changes will remain in memory only, until you decide to write them. Be careful before using the write command. /dev/sdb: device contains a valid 'iso9660' signature, it's strongly recommended to wipe the device by command wipefs(8) if this setup is unexpected to avoid possible collisions. Device does not contain a recognized partition table. Created a new DOS disklabel with disk identifier 0xfcf3453e. Command (m for help): q root@notlookedfor:/home/hendrik# so evidently the dd succeeded in putting something on the disk. Had my son (on an Ubuntu system) use his graphical disk contents display and it told him is was a CDROM, and the file system on it appeared to contain a Debian system. Oh, yes. He tried to boot his machine, which is one of the thinkpad models that's guaranteed to run Linux, from the USB stick. It wouldn't boot either. Looks as if there's something else that needs to be done than just dd. -- hendrik > > > > use blkid to get the USB device. > > Ah! That easy! I just need to copy the iso file as is to the USB stick and > that's > enough to make it boot? There's nothing special about it being a USB stick > or a CD? > > marvellous! > > -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] btrfs repair works fine, Lennart has no idea what he is talking about - was OT - It may be only one file, but it does point to the bigger problem!
On 02/22/2015 07:28 PM, Jim Murphy wrote: > [...] > Part of the discussion: > >>> btrfs checksumming theoretically allows you to transparently recover >>> after media corruption if filesystem has redundancy (more than one >>> copy of data). Journald checksum will probably detect corruption, but >>> can it repair it? >>> >> No it cannot. >> But btrfs checksumming cannot fix things for you either if you lose >> non-trivial amounts of data. It might be able to fix a few bits of >> errors, but not non-trivial amounts. I mean, that's a simple property >> of error correction codes: the more you want to be able to correct the >> longer must your checksum be. Neither btrfs' nor journald's are >> substantial enough to correct even a sector... >> >> Lennart > This is pure ignorance. It does not require the redundancy provided by the CRC algorithm to recover the data; it uses the checksum just to find out if the copy is good, and uses redundancy provided by raid to repair it. (which is simply what Lennart's victim already said by adding context with "if filesystem has redundancy" and "more than one copy of data", which is not the CRC). The checksum doesn't need to be longer to repair it, only to prevent collision. The chance of a collision is something like one in 2^32 = 4 billion. (< 1 in 512 :P) Test this out simply by making a raid1, filling it with data, then run 2 things in infinite loops. One to repeat scrubs, and one to write random data to the disks, not just a few bits. Here's 30 minutes of the test script (kernel 3.18.x, btrfs tools version 3.18.2): Konsole output Konsole output WARNING: errors detected during scrubbing, corrected. scrub status for af936534-6c3f-4136-809a-740a32a65591 scrub started at Fri Feb 27 15:07:34 2015 and finished after 159 seconds total bytes scrubbed: 13.20GiB with 120 errors error details: csum=120 corrected errors: 120, uncorrectable errors: 0, unverified errors: 0 scrub started on /mnt/test, fsid af936534-6c3f-4136-809a-740a32a65591 (pid=14152) WARNING: errors detected during scrubbing, corrected. scrub status for af936534-6c3f-4136-809a-740a32a65591 scrub started at Fri Feb 27 15:10:14 2015 and finished after 144 seconds total bytes scrubbed: 13.20GiB with 14 errors error details: csum=14 corrected errors: 14, uncorrectable errors: 0, unverified errors: 0 scrub started on /mnt/test, fsid af936534-6c3f-4136-809a-740a32a65591 (pid=14275) WARNING: errors detected during scrubbing, corrected. scrub status for af936534-6c3f-4136-809a-740a32a65591 scrub started at Fri Feb 27 15:12:44 2015 and finished after 139 seconds total bytes scrubbed: 13.20GiB with 80 errors error details: csum=80 corrected errors: 80, uncorrectable errors: 0, unverified errors: 0 scrub started on /mnt/test, fsid af936534-6c3f-4136-809a-740a32a65591 (pid=14377) WARNING: errors detected during scrubbing, corrected. scrub status for af936534-6c3f-4136-809a-740a32a65591 scrub started at Fri Feb 27 15:15:04 2015 and finished after 168 seconds total bytes scrubbed: 13.20GiB with 14 errors error details: csum=14 corrected errors: 14, uncorrectable errors: 0, unverified errors: 0 scrub started on /mnt/test, fsid af936534-6c3f-4136-809a-740a32a65591 (pid=14505) WARNING: errors detected during scrubbing, corrected. scrub status for af936534-6c3f-4136-809a-740a32a65591 scrub started at Fri Feb 27 15:17:54 2015 and finished after 163 seconds total bytes scrubbed: 13.20GiB with 110 errors error details: csum=110 corrected errors: 110, uncorrectable errors: 0, unverified errors: 0 scrub started on /mnt/test, fsid af936534-6c3f-4136-809a-740a32a65591 (pid=14595) WARNING: errors detected during scrubbing, corrected. scrub status for af936534-6c3f-4136-809a-740a32a65591 scrub started at Fri Feb 27 15:20:44 2015 and finished after 173 seconds total bytes scrubbed: 13.20GiB with 53 errors error details: csum=53 corrected errors: 53, uncorrectable errors: 0, unverified errors: 0 scrub started on /mnt/test, fsid af936534-6c3f-4136-809a-740a32a65591 (pid=14737) Obviously there is a chance for both copies to be destroyed at the same time... but it isn't all that likely in 20 minutes, even with such high destruction rate. But clearly this disproves Lennart's unfounded statement, saying a single sector cannot be repaired. Here's 391 blocks so far, which I assume is more than 391 sectors. Clearing cache and then doing a diff on the test files compared to the original copy shows that they are undamaged. (this means you can cp the files away without any loss, but maybe there are bugs that will make btrfs die later :P it's not exactly fully production ready) So change "theoretically" in the above email to "in practice". And the test script: # variables used in many parts of the script disk1=/dev/data/btrfs1 disk2=/dev/da
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
Hmmm, you might have to use isohybrid (in the syslinux package) to make the ISO bootable when dd'ed to a USB key. See http://www.turnkeylinux.org/blog/iso2usb. On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 04:35:47PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 04:30:39PM -0500, william moss wrote: > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > > Hash: SHA256 > > > > > > On 02/23/2015 04:24 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > I have a three-or-four year-old laptop on which I am replacingg the > hard drive. It > > > > seems to be old enough not to have proper virtualisatoin hardware. > It currently > > > > dual-boots Debian testing, and, once in a blue moon, Windows XP. > > > > > > > > (So far the main problems I have had is to copy Windows' three > partitions -- the one > > > > that runs, the so-called restore partition, and the EFI partition. > I'm hoping that > > > > grub will find a way to make the running partition bootable. I > managed to get > > > > clonezilla to copy the three partitions (even though the EFI > partition seemed to > > > > violate what I know of the EFI specs in that it didn't have a FAT > 12, 16, or 32 > > > > filesystem. Maybe grub will be able to figure out how to boot what > needs booting.) > > > > Oh yes, Despite the EFI partition it is still a BIOS machine. Go > figure. > > > > > > > > > > But maybe this is the ideal time to try the iso on the new drive and > try it on real > > > > hardware instead of a virtual machine. If things were to go > > > > massively wrong, I could always put the old disk back in. > > > > > > > > Except I need instructions just how to do this. It does not have a > CD or DVD drive, > > > > but will boot from USB stick. > > > > > > > > How do I go about putting the installation .iso onto a USB stick so > it will boot? > > > > Debian should be good enough to accomplish that, riight? > > > > > > > > Or is there another installation method it might be more useful to > test? > > > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > Dng mailing list > > > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > > > > > If you insist, there is an application to do this in Linux (one for > > > windows also, do not remember the name): > > > unetbootin > > > > > > or > > > > > > dd if=Fully-qualified-path-to-the-image of=Raw-USB-Device > > > > > > for example > > > dd if=/home/daffyduck/download/devian.iso of=/dev/sde > > Did that. > > Wouldn't boot. > > Booting with the USB stick plugged in, pressed ESC to get a boot menu, > the USB stick appeared as one of the devices I could boot from, but > when booting, just got a blank screen with a blinking cursor. > > The same as when I tried booting from my new hard drive, on which no > boot sector has ever been written. > > Tried seeing if there was anything on the stick (after booting > from my old hard drive, which still has Debian on it. It told > me: > > root@notlookedfor:/home/hendrik# fdisk /dev/sdb > > Welcome to fdisk (util-linux 2.25.2). > Changes will remain in memory only, until you decide to write them. > Be careful before using the write command. > > /dev/sdb: device contains a valid 'iso9660' signature, it's strongly > recommended to wipe the device by command wipefs(8) if this setup is > unexpected to avoid possible collisions. > > Device does not contain a recognized partition table. > Created a new DOS disklabel with disk identifier 0xfcf3453e. > > Command (m for help): q > > root@notlookedfor:/home/hendrik# > > so evidently the dd succeeded in putting something on the disk. > > Had my son (on an Ubuntu system) use his graphical disk > contents display and it told him is was a CDROM, and the file system on > it appeared to contain a Debian system. > > Oh, yes. He tried to boot his machine, which is one of the thinkpad > models that's guaranteed to run Linux, from the USB stick. It wouldn't > boot either. > > Looks as if there's something else that needs to be done than just dd. > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > use blkid to get the USB device. > > > > Ah! That easy! I just need to copy the iso file as is to the USB stick > and that's > > enough to make it boot? There's nothing special about it being a USB > stick or a CD? > > > > marvellous! > > > > -- hendrik > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
> > > for example > > > dd if=/home/daffyduck/download/devian.iso of=/dev/sde > > Did that. > > Wouldn't boot. > http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
Am Freitag, 27. Februar 2015 schrieb Martijn Dekkers: > > > > for example > > > > dd if=/home/daffyduck/download/devian.iso of=/dev/sde > > > > Did that. > > > > Wouldn't boot. > > > > http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/ > some computers need a partition table on the usb-stick to boot. -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:21:03AM -0500, Jude Nelson wrote: > Hmmm, you might have to use isohybrid (in the syslinux package) to make the > ISO bootable when dd'ed to a USB key. See > http://www.turnkeylinux.org/blog/iso2usb. Did that. dd'd it again. Now it boots, though, as expected, it still seems to think it's a Debian installer. Will proceed with installation when I've got the right hard drive in the laptop again. -- hendrik > > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Hendrik Boom > wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 04:35:47PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 04:30:39PM -0500, william moss wrote: > > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > > > Hash: SHA256 > > > > > > > > On 02/23/2015 04:24 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > > I have a three-or-four year-old laptop on which I am replacingg the > > hard drive. It > > > > > seems to be old enough not to have proper virtualisatoin hardware. > > It currently > > > > > dual-boots Debian testing, and, once in a blue moon, Windows XP. > > > > > > > > > > (So far the main problems I have had is to copy Windows' three > > partitions -- the one > > > > > that runs, the so-called restore partition, and the EFI partition. > > I'm hoping that > > > > > grub will find a way to make the running partition bootable. I > > managed to get > > > > > clonezilla to copy the three partitions (even though the EFI > > partition seemed to > > > > > violate what I know of the EFI specs in that it didn't have a FAT > > 12, 16, or 32 > > > > > filesystem. Maybe grub will be able to figure out how to boot what > > needs booting.) > > > > > > Oh yes, Despite the EFI partition it is still a BIOS machine. Go > > figure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But maybe this is the ideal time to try the iso on the new drive and > > try it on real > > > > > hardware instead of a virtual machine. If things were to go > > > > > massively wrong, I could always put the old disk back in. > > > > > > > > > > Except I need instructions just how to do this. It does not have a > > CD or DVD drive, > > > > > but will boot from USB stick. > > > > > > > > > > How do I go about putting the installation .iso onto a USB stick so > > it will boot? > > > > > Debian should be good enough to accomplish that, riight? > > > > > > > > > > Or is there another installation method it might be more useful to > > test? > > > > > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > Dng mailing list > > > > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > > > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > > > > > > > If you insist, there is an application to do this in Linux (one for > > > > windows also, do not remember the name): > > > > unetbootin > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > dd if=Fully-qualified-path-to-the-image of=Raw-USB-Device > > > > > > > > for example > > > > dd if=/home/daffyduck/download/devian.iso of=/dev/sde > > > > Did that. > > > > Wouldn't boot. > > > > Booting with the USB stick plugged in, pressed ESC to get a boot menu, > > the USB stick appeared as one of the devices I could boot from, but > > when booting, just got a blank screen with a blinking cursor. > > > > The same as when I tried booting from my new hard drive, on which no > > boot sector has ever been written. > > > > Tried seeing if there was anything on the stick (after booting > > from my old hard drive, which still has Debian on it. It told > > me: > > > > root@notlookedfor:/home/hendrik# fdisk /dev/sdb > > > > Welcome to fdisk (util-linux 2.25.2). > > Changes will remain in memory only, until you decide to write them. > > Be careful before using the write command. > > > > /dev/sdb: device contains a valid 'iso9660' signature, it's strongly > > recommended to wipe the device by command wipefs(8) if this setup is > > unexpected to avoid possible collisions. > > > > Device does not contain a recognized partition table. > > Created a new DOS disklabel with disk identifier 0xfcf3453e. > > > > Command (m for help): q > > > > root@notlookedfor:/home/hendrik# > > > > so evidently the dd succeeded in putting something on the disk. > > > > Had my son (on an Ubuntu system) use his graphical disk > > contents display and it told him is was a CDROM, and the file system on > > it appeared to contain a Debian system. > > > > Oh, yes. He tried to boot his machine, which is one of the thinkpad > > models that's guaranteed to run Linux, from the USB stick. It wouldn't > > boot either. > > > > Looks as if there's something else that needs to be done than just dd. > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > > use blkid to get the USB device. > > > > > > Ah! That easy! I just need to copy the iso file as is to the USB stick > > and that's > > > enough to make it boot? There's nothing special about it being a USB > > stick or a CD? > > > > > > marvellous! > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > ___ > > > Dng mailing list > > > Dng@lists.dyne.o
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 01:56:56PM +, Matthew Melton wrote: [cut] > > > > Just to support my point, Debian has a great logo, but this is what is > > currently happening to the users of Jessie, thanks to the > > systemd-nonsense: > > > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html > > Think they have found a solution after reading the followups. Reminds me that > someone complained they couldn't terminate fdisk if started by systemd during > boot. > Might offer to help them...once I have stopped laughing of course. Ha ha. > > Well, I still find it hard to believe that a modern Unix OS might be stuck at boot because I forgot to connect an ethernet cable... This is the essence of the systemd-nonsense. In that case it was "just" a laptop, but can you imagine something similar happening on a production server? Who is going to pay for the downtime that these "little glitches" are going to cause? How much should systemd damage the image of GNU/Linux before everybody realise how much of a nonsense it is? :( KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
> How much should systemd damage the image of GNU/Linux before everybody realise how much of a nonsense it is? the image of linux is /not/ what will cause change. - people will switch when the annoyance of unexpected systemd behavior outweighs the annoyance of getting rid of systemd - developers will stop using it when something nicer with wider support comes along or they personally are fed up with systemd. - distros will keep requiring it until they start losing lots of people to distros without systemd or have enough complaints/support issues to warrant change. we need to make the first two things happen if there is any hope of the third happening. --Gravis On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 1:13 PM, KatolaZ wrote: > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 01:56:56PM +, Matthew Melton wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > > > Just to support my point, Debian has a great logo, but this is what is > > > currently happening to the users of Jessie, thanks to the > > > systemd-nonsense: > > > > > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html > > > > Think they have found a solution after reading the followups. Reminds me > that someone complained they couldn't terminate fdisk if started by systemd > during boot. > > Might offer to help them...once I have stopped laughing of course. Ha ha. > > > > > > Well, I still find it hard to believe that a modern Unix OS might be > stuck at boot because I forgot to connect an ethernet cable... This is > the essence of the systemd-nonsense. In that case it was "just" a > laptop, but can you imagine something similar happening on a > production server? Who is going to pay for the downtime that these > "little glitches" are going to cause? How much should systemd damage > the image of GNU/Linux before everybody realise how much of a nonsense > it is? > > :( > > KatolaZ > > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 12:03:22PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:21:03AM -0500, Jude Nelson wrote: > > Hmmm, you might have to use isohybrid (in the syslinux package) to make the > > ISO bootable when dd'ed to a USB key. See > > http://www.turnkeylinux.org/blog/iso2usb. > > Did that. dd'd it again. Now it boots, though, as expected, it still > seems to think it's a Debian installer. > > Will proceed with installation when I've got the right hard drive in the > laptop again. > > -- hendrik The installer booted nicely. I decided to use the expert install becuase there's another OS (Windows XP) already copied to the target hard drive. It isn't bootable at the moment, but (a) grub may be able to boot it, and (b) in any cse, I'll want access to its file system even if I end up running everythine under wine. Everythiong went smoothly until I got to partitioning.. I got it so look at the hard drive rather than trying to install to the USB stick I booted from (there has been a bit of discussion about this on one of the mailing lists (I think debian's)) But picked manual paritioning, but all the options I seem to find look like they're going to wipe the entire existing partition table and set up a new one, wiping everything that's there. If that's the only way to go ahead with this thing I will. Have I missed something along the way? Or is the warning prose just overly dramatic? (details, in case relevant: I have three existong partitions, copied from the old hard drive -- numbers 1, 3, and 4. 4 is the EFI partition, (even though this is a BIOS machine) and doesn't seem to contain a recognisable file system). I plan to make partiotn 2 (with most of the disk space) into an extended partitions, place a few small secondary partitions on it so serve as /boot for Linuxes and for experimenting with a few other OS's, and then put the bulk of the space into LVM, for devuan.s /, /home, and so forth.) -- hendrik > > > > > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Hendrik Boom > > wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 04:35:47PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 04:30:39PM -0500, william moss wrote: > > > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > > > > Hash: SHA256 > > > > > > > > > > On 02/23/2015 04:24 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > > > I have a three-or-four year-old laptop on which I am replacingg the > > > hard drive. It > > > > > > seems to be old enough not to have proper virtualisatoin hardware. > > > It currently > > > > > > dual-boots Debian testing, and, once in a blue moon, Windows XP. > > > > > > > > > > > > (So far the main problems I have had is to copy Windows' three > > > partitions -- the one > > > > > > that runs, the so-called restore partition, and the EFI partition. > > > I'm hoping that > > > > > > grub will find a way to make the running partition bootable. I > > > managed to get > > > > > > clonezilla to copy the three partitions (even though the EFI > > > partition seemed to > > > > > > violate what I know of the EFI specs in that it didn't have a FAT > > > 12, 16, or 32 > > > > > > filesystem. Maybe grub will be able to figure out how to boot what > > > needs booting.) > > > > > > > > Oh yes, Despite the EFI partition it is still a BIOS machine. Go > > > figure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But maybe this is the ideal time to try the iso on the new drive and > > > try it on real > > > > > > hardware instead of a virtual machine. If things were to go > > > > > > massively wrong, I could always put the old disk back in. > > > > > > > > > > > > Except I need instructions just how to do this. It does not have a > > > CD or DVD drive, > > > > > > but will boot from USB stick. > > > > > > > > > > > > How do I go about putting the installation .iso onto a USB stick so > > > it will boot? > > > > > > Debian should be good enough to accomplish that, riight? > > > > > > > > > > > > Or is there another installation method it might be more useful to > > > test? > > > > > > > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > Dng mailing list > > > > > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > > > > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > > > > > > > > > If you insist, there is an application to do this in Linux (one for > > > > > windows also, do not remember the name): > > > > > unetbootin > > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > dd if=Fully-qualified-path-to-the-image of=Raw-USB-Device > > > > > > > > > > for example > > > > > dd if=/home/daffyduck/download/devian.iso of=/dev/sde > > > > > > Did that. > > > > > > Wouldn't boot. > > > > > > Booting with the USB stick plugged in, pressed ESC to get a boot menu, > > > the USB stick appeared as one of the devices I could boot from, but > > > when booting, just got a blank screen with a blinking cursor. > > > > > > The same as when I tried booting from my new hard drive, on which no > > > boot sec
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:05:49 + KatolaZ пишет: > If it is true that "freedom of choice" sounds like a cool flagship, on > the other hand we effectively have no freedom at all about the choice > of the large majority of the core components of a GNU/Linux system, > starting with the libc and continuing with the authentication system > (pam), most of the basic libraries, system tools and so forth. And if > you want a GUI, you don't have any alternative to X-servers and > X-clients (I know, wayland promises to change this, but not for the > better IMHO). And if you are not content of juxt X + twm and you want > a working GUI + a DM, you are bound to install tons of dependencies, > for most of which there are no replacements at all. In most of the > cases, 99.5% of the user don't even know exactly what is installed in > their hard disks, and they don't care, as long as it *works*. UNIXes have to divide its software by function types and not the suites, depending on each other and the only. For example, it should be possible for X user to pick his/her own X environment: task bar from one package, window maanger from another, screen-saver from the third, etc. -- according to personal prefernces on how well each particular software does its job, or how much comfortable to use it for the end user. And os it is w/ all the OS - does not matter what. -- So, all the software should work w/ each other - through APIs that should be standartized. And that's it. And the Enemy disaster, the "SystemD" will not be problem - for the sold/betraial DDs will be to have use the disaster, and the yet free distro-s -- "SysV". -- And so on. Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:39:06 +0100 Didier Kryn пишет: > I think this question goes together with the badge or logo > question. It must go beyond "sans-systemd"; > it is more about principles. Let's list some: > > - freedom of choice, > - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, > - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum > > Don't know if KISS goes into details, but maybe it could inspire > the logo. I think these are the points, that can help to protect Devuan, at least the 3rd. Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On 02/22/2015 05:45 PM, Mark Maxwell wrote: On 22/02/15 20:11, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Hello, A few questions about the GUI for Devuan... 1) In the default desktop environment for Devuan, will there be an icon or other discoverable item the user can click to see a list of available wifi network connections? 2) When the DE's main menu pops up, will the user be able to _immediately_ start typing characters and see a list of applications filtered to match what is being typed? 3) In the default desktop environment for Devuan, when the user clicks the "Super" key (often has the Windows icon on it) will the DEs main menu pop up? I put these three features in order of importance for newcomers and non-technical users to have control over their machines. #1 is vital because it makes the entire knowledge-base on the web (potentially) available for users so they can troubleshoot problems outside of network connectivity, even if they haven't a clue what an ESSID is. #2 is important because responsive natural language searches are ubiquitous, simple to understand, explain, and remember, especially when compared with branches of app categories (which are often quite arbitrary). #3 is certainly not vital at all, but its existence is a good indicator that the developers take usability seriously. You may be able to guess that I currently use Gnome 3 under Debian, because Gnome 3 includes all three features that I list. But please don't be mistaken-- I'm not looking to pitch Devuan on Gnome 3. Rather, I have neglected to uninstall Gnome 3 because as long as it does those three things it fulfills my needs as a user. I'd much prefer to use a distro like Devuan, where its community is reflecting upon the long-term maintainability of the system (and closely inspecting its source code). As long as it has a default DE with the three features above, I can switch over with virtually no pain. But more importantly, with those three features an entire class of non-technical users can have a safe, sane, and secure place from which to launch Chromium. I'd bet a large chunk of Lenovo's userbase has a desire for just such a system atm. :) Anyhow, if any of those three are missing under the planned system, I'd be happy to help try to rectify the situation. Best, Jonathan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng For #3 I find that its the only key not mapped on the entire keyboard, so its 'Mine'. I map it as my control key for personal keymapings. To map it to a single function of bringing up a menu which is already available with a right click anywhere on the background of from the bar seems like a great loss in functionality. Its the only good thing about the windows key. Hi Mark, In your case you'd have the added burden of re-mapping the menu shortcut from "Super" to empty string. I don't understand how that would end up in a "great loss in functionality". -Jonathan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Easy forkability
В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 11:56:28 -0500 Hendrik Boom пишет: > > Well the answer is simple: if such an unlikely "invasion" would > > happen, we will always have the opportunity to fork Devuan, for the > > good of its users :) > > This suggests that one of the goals of Devuan should be easy > forkability. > > But it's not clear to me what this involves technically. > > Any suggestions? > > Are there aspects of the existing structure of Debian that made it > more difficult to fork? I think that community also can participate in important discussions, voting by a lot of real people (not 4 DDs for whole the project) before important dicidions be made. So, i see for protection two ways: technical, like minimalism for easy forking, and community driven development of the project. Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] btrfs repair works fine, Lennart has no idea what he is talking about - was OT - It may be only one file, but it does point to the bigger problem!
Quite frankly, I would not overly concern myself with Lennart's Poettering's opinion. He has been quoted: "Open Source community is full of assholes, and I probably more than most others am one of their most favourite targets." That's probably true in many ways. I've seen plenty of them, however I believe it is his attitude that created the problem, not the software he has written. When I say that, it is not because I dislike him or that he is unintelligent. I've never met him, and every indicator says that he is far from stupid. My response is based on the fact that he has worked in a number of areas: pulseaudio, avahi, and systemd. Being something of a generalist, he is probably a master of none of them - and his attitude toward others is less than personable. This would include BTFS and any opinions thereupon. t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Easy forkability
В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 19:32:08 +0100 Jaromil пишет: > > This suggests that one of the goals of Devuan should be easy > > forkability. > > > > But it's not clear to me what this involves technically. > > > > Any suggestions? > > perhaps the SDK is a good start on this ;^) Yea! That's a very good idea! But, simple SDK! :o) > > Are there aspects of the existing structure of Debian that made it > > more difficult to fork? > > no, not really. I'd say Debian until its version 7 is really fork > friendly, not just technically, but also politically: a good amount of > DDs have welcomed our fork seeing it brings some resilience and fresh > air. The architecture of the OS is very open to ad-hoc usage and we > should keep up with that. I think it is not Debian-relevant, but mainstreams - especiaaly big projects. > I also believe that without Devuan today, in one or two years from now > systemd would be really hard to remove and that might make Debian > harder to fork in the direction of init-freedom. It can be more harder if mainstream will do so. Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 21:28:41 + Noel Torres пишет: > > https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/blob/devuan-alpha/graphic > > s/init-freedom/if.png > > I'd prefer any logo that does not use english initials or play on > words. Awesome! As it is the planet-wide project, why make it necessary to translate even logo into languages? - Let it be just graphical stuff. Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI
В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 23:39:10 + Noel Torres пишет: > I do not find it swear nor violent. I find way more violent to > request us (not me, DWN is made by a growig group of people) to stop > using words that are not swear just because they incomodate a single > person, and that single person speaking in plural. It is swear to me, and can/ be for others. You' re free to whatever you want within your company, body, spirit -- but, please stop doing it publicaly - for the people it is not acceptable to hear such a speech/language that you or your company lives w/. I suppose you and your company/group will not be hurted absolutely (what i can not suppose for the people, reading you/your group if you all persist in your language) by making little effort of keeping your language clean just for the time you type the news, and then can rest yourself for all other time. I see here just people arrive to your work IF you keep your languages clean for the news moments -- so whole the project only wins from that your sacrifice: the news and the possible farther development. -- And opposite, people go away -- that does not help Devuan at all. Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
В Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:15:24 +0100 Anthony Scemama пишет: > I found this image on the web: > > http://tux.crystalxp.net/png/kros753-kiss-the-demon-2286.png > > > It's a good mix between KISS and Linux! > If you like it, I can ask the guys from CrystalXP.net if it can be > used for Devuan. I guess it is not what Linus ment, choosing for logo penguin: something cute. :o) To me it is not beautiful, nor comely. Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 07:22:26PM +0300, Jack L. Frost wrote: > > Could you please cease «kickass» here -- for people read your news > > also, but such rudness leaves them nothing but to shrink from your > > writing. Thanks again for the news though. > > “kickass” is not even a swear word. I think we're seeing cultural differences here. What may not be a swearword in one community may be in another. -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Fri, 2015-02-27 at 18:13 +, KatolaZ wrote: > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 01:56:56PM +, Matthew Melton wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > > > Just to support my point, Debian has a great logo, but this is what is > > > currently happening to the users of Jessie, thanks to the > > > systemd-nonsense: > > > > > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html > > > > Well, I still find it hard to believe that a modern Unix OS might be > stuck at boot because I forgot to connect an ethernet cable... This is > the essence of the systemd-nonsense. In that case it was "just" a > laptop, but can you imagine something similar happening on a > production server? Who is going to pay for the downtime that these > "little glitches" are going to cause? How much should systemd damage With respect to all, I think that a measure of objectivity is called for here. I think that because personality clashes that Debian's entire systemd discussion has lost any sense of reality long ago. With no offense or judgment intended, I'd rather not see Debian's mud at our door. The reason we left was to get away from it. Devuan does not need to justify its own existence. The reality is that Linux is a mean-spirited, ugly camel with the number of humps chosen by committee. For all of that, it is rather endearing - because you can make of it what you will. No one can charge you in court or judge less of your character for doing your own thing. I've had Debian, RedHat, and just about every major distribution grace my system at some point. With every single one of them, without exception, has had issues of some kind or another. Some of which were major showstoppers. Some didn't even boot, others were so poorly assembled that you'd think the packagers were drunken monkeys. All of this started long before systemd was ever created, and will certainly be around long after systemd is forgotten. t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI
On Fri, 2/27/15, Hendrik Boom wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Friday, February 27, 2015, 2:12 PM On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 07:22:26PM +0300, Jack L. Frost wrote: > > Could you please cease «kickass» here -- for people read your news > > also, but such rudness leaves them nothing but to shrink from your > > writing. Thanks again for the news though. > > “kickass” is not even a swear word. I think we're seeing cultural differences here. What may not be a swearword in one community may be in another. -- hendrik It's pretty much a given that someone will always be offended by something or other. Certainly there will always be cross-cultural faux pas. But I am not really in favor of censoring speech that is in common use and considered not offensive by most everyone here either. Remember that not long ago this list set a limit on what was acceptable and what was not (and it wasn't 'kickass'). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On 02/27/15 16:21, Ста Деюс wrote: > > Awesome! As it is the planet-wide project, why make it necessary to > translate even logo into languages? - Let it be just graphical stuff. > *** Why is everybody looking for the One Ring to Rule Them All? Can't we have unity through diversity? Are we all subject of Mordor's torpor and subjugation? I'd like to see logos I can't read: in Cyrillic, in Mandarin, in Arabic, ... If "if" makes a great logo for English-speaking people, what makes a great logo for Indians? Embrace cultural differences for freedom sake! == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI
On 02/27/15 16:16, Ста Деюс wrote: > > It is swear to me, and can/ be for others. > *** *I* used "kickass" in the common slang meaning of "very good or impressive", or "very effective". As a non-native English speaker as well, it didn't occur to me that it was impolite to do so, and apparently the people who worked on this issue were not shocked either. As was mentioned before, anyone is welcome to participate in the editing process of the DWN, so I recommend that you join us on Monday so that such offense does not happen again. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI
> It is swear to me, and can/ be for others. > > You' re free to whatever you want within your company, body, spirit -- > but, please stop doing it publicaly - for the people it is not > acceptable to hear such a speech/language that you or your company > lives w/. this coming from the person that has the initials for "shut the hell up" as their signature. --Gravis On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Ста Деюс wrote: > В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 23:39:10 + > Noel Torres пишет: > > > I do not find it swear nor violent. I find way more violent to > > request us (not me, DWN is made by a growig group of people) to stop > > using words that are not swear just because they incomodate a single > > person, and that single person speaking in plural. > > It is swear to me, and can/ be for others. > > You' re free to whatever you want within your company, body, spirit -- > but, please stop doing it publicaly - for the people it is not > acceptable to hear such a speech/language that you or your company > lives w/. > > I suppose you and your company/group will not be hurted absolutely > (what i can not suppose for the people, reading you/your group if you > all persist in your language) by making little effort of keeping your > language clean just for the time you type the news, and then can rest > yourself for all other time. > > I see here just people arrive to your work IF you keep your languages > clean for the news moments -- so whole the project only wins from that > your sacrifice: the news and the possible farther development. -- And > opposite, people go away -- that does not help Devuan at all. > > > Sthu. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Gravis wrote: > - people will switch when the annoyance of unexpected systemd behavior > outweighs the annoyance of getting rid of systemd > - developers will stop using it when something nicer with wider support > comes along or they personally are fed up with systemd. > - distros will keep requiring it until they start losing lots of people to > distros without systemd or have enough complaints/support issues to warrant > change. > > we need to make the first two things happen if there is any hope of the > third happening. If the third is change i'm with you, if the third is "losing users", i'm not. There are a few good distros where user-quantity is not an issue. Software quality is more important. I'll still give Devuan a try regardless of how many users it has, and i sure as hell don't have Red Hat on my roadmap. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
frankly, i find the "badges" to be a petty jab at other distros that is more of a distraction than anything else. --Gravis On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 3:30 PM, hellekin wrote: > On 02/27/15 16:21, Ста Деюс wrote: > > > > Awesome! As it is the planet-wide project, why make it necessary to > > translate even logo into languages? - Let it be just graphical stuff. > > > *** Why is everybody looking for the One Ring to Rule Them All? Can't > we have unity through diversity? Are we all subject of Mordor's torpor > and subjugation? > > I'd like to see logos I can't read: in Cyrillic, in Mandarin, in Arabic, > ... If "if" makes a great logo for English-speaking people, what makes > a great logo for Indians? Embrace cultural differences for freedom sake! > > == > hk > > -- > _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom > (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:30 PM, hellekin wrote: >> Awesome! As it is the planet-wide project, why make it necessary to >> translate even logo into languages? - Let it be just graphical stuff. +1 > *** Why is everybody looking for the One Ring to Rule Them All? Can't > we have unity through diversity? Are we all subject of Mordor's torpor > and subjugation? > > I'd like to see logos I can't read: in Cyrillic, in Mandarin, in Arabic, > ... If "if" makes a great logo for English-speaking people, what makes > a great logo for Indians? Embrace cultural differences for freedom sake! That's not diversity, that's exageration. So you wany a logo with all the alphabets of the world? Latin, cyrillic, greek, hiragana, "those thai things", arabic, etc, etc, etc.. Nah... i'd go with a simple graphic logo. No words. Or go with esperanto. :) Fine, lojban (but i haven't started learning that one yet - it's on my ever-growing to-do stack). :p And why penguins? I think in terms of non-conformity, the platypus makes much more sense. There's an interesting topic lurking here, though: support for translations, UTF-8, internationalization and localization, etc. IMHO, Devuan should support as vast a spectrum as possible, out of the box. Even on larger distros i feel the support is a bit subpar. 2¢ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
> *** Why is everybody looking for the One Ring to Rule Them All? Can't > we have unity through diversity? Are we all subject of Mordor's torpor > and subjugation? which makes me think some kind of broken ring, or melted ring, could be an idea for the devuan or rootslinux logo . . . breaking free from the evil mordor ring that attacked the community . . . ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On Fri, 2/27/15, Nuno Magalhães wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Friday, February 27, 2015, 3:27 PM > > And why penguins? I think in terms of non-conformity, the platypus > makes much more sense. > > Why? Because I have a photographer friend who took that great penguin photo and gave us permission to use it. It is just one of many possibilities. I have never suggested it is THE one to use. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 9:55 PM, Go Linux wrote: >> And why penguins? I think in terms of non-conformity, the platypus >> makes much more sense. > Why? 'Cos us humans and out need for recognizable patterns can't quite classify it :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On Fri, 2/27/15, Nuno Magalhães wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Friday, February 27, 2015, 4:11 PM On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 9:55 PM, Go Linux wrote: >> And why penguins? I think in terms of non-conformity, the platypus >> makes much more sense. > Why? > > > 'Cos us humans and out need for recognizable patterns can't quite classify it > :) FYI . . . I was querying myself with the 'why?'. ;) (English can be confusing sometimes . . . ) golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
trying to look different for the sake of looking different is stupid. --Gravis On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Nuno Magalhães wrote: > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 9:55 PM, Go Linux wrote: > >> And why penguins? I think in terms of non-conformity, the platypus > >> makes much more sense. > > Why? > > 'Cos us humans and out need for recognizable patterns can't quite classify > it :) > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 06:13:24PM +, KatolaZ wrote: > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 01:56:56PM +, Matthew Melton wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > > > Just to support my point, Debian has a great logo, but this is what is > > > currently happening to the users of Jessie, thanks to the > > > systemd-nonsense: > > > > > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html > > > > Think they have found a solution after reading the followups. Reminds me > > that someone complained they couldn't terminate fdisk if started by systemd > > during boot. > > Might offer to help them...once I have stopped laughing of course. Ha ha. > > > > > > Well, I still find it hard to believe that a modern Unix OS might be > stuck at boot because I forgot to connect an ethernet cable... This is > the essence of the systemd-nonsense. In that case it was "just" a What baffles me is that Lennart *has* written a daemon specifically to *avoid* hung boots due to networks being down. It's called ifplugd. (And yes, if I used my ethernet port more often than the twice a year I now use it, I might want to use ifplugd. Unlike systemd, it's a single small daemon that just checks interface state and runs a script if it's connected.) Or, that might be the way Debian sets up networking as a dependency of remote-fs which is a dependency of the late-boot programs in /usr. I used to encounter similar problems when I had no wireless; fortunately, sysvinit proceeds after a timeout. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:18:15 -0600 "T.J. Duchene" wrote: > With respect to all, I think that a measure of objectivity is called > for here. I think that because personality clashes that Debian's > entire systemd discussion has lost any sense of reality long ago. You know, T.J., I might just agree with you, *if* you can show me a block diagram of the systemd ecosystem, *complete with interaction lines as well as functional blocks*. You know, like this: http://troubleshooters.com/lpm/201202/images/email_arch_personal.png Or these: http://troubleshooters.com/lpm/200803/images/server_app.png http://troubleshooters.com/lpm/200803/images/client_app.png Or these: http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_process_overview.png http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_daemontools.png http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_minimal_service.png http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_dnscache_block_diagram.png http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_tinydns_block_diagram.png Or this: http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/nullmailer/images/nullmailer_mm.png But not the following, because it's boxes with no lines: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Systemd_components.svg/440px-Systemd_components.svg.png Nor this, because it's obviously incomplete as a representation of the systemd ecosphere: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Linux_kernel_unified_hierarchy_cgroups_and_systemd.svg/440px-Linux_kernel_unified_hierarchy_cgroups_and_systemd.svg.png Bottom line is this: If you make a modular system with thin interfaces and sane components, somebody will make a block diagram representing it, accurately, in its entirety. It could be argued that the email, sockets, and djb software systems I diagrammed were much simpler than systemd. Fair enough, but I'm one guy doing this stuff in my spare time, not six guys getting paid full time by Red Hat. I'm sure one of the geniuses Red Hat hired could have diagrammed system accurately and completely. Heck, I often do that *before* I write software, just so the system turns out architecturally sound. Let's see the block diagram. Prove systemd doesn't have grave architectural problems. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [D OFFLIST ng] Devuan Weekly News XI
On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 18:05:49 -0300 hellekin wrote: > On 02/27/15 16:16, Ста Деюс wrote: > > > > It is swear to me, and can/ be for others. > > > *** *I* used "kickass" in the common slang meaning of "very good or > impressive", or "very effective". As a non-native English speaker as > well, it didn't occur to me that it was impolite to do so, and > apparently the people who worked on this issue were not shocked > either. As was mentioned before, anyone is welcome to participate in > the editing process of the DWN, so I recommend that you join us on > Monday so that such offense does not happen again. OFFLIST First, to Jack L. Frost: I'm so sorry that somebody made the quoted context look like you had thrown the hissy-fit instead of Ста Деюс, when you replied that hellekin hadn't sworn at all. That's negligent at best, a dirty trick at worst. Hi all, I'd suggest we not discuss the meaning or connotation of "kickass" anymore. The guy who originally had the hissy-fit, Ста Деюс, had been on the list one whole day (with three basically non-contributory posts) when he decided to go off on the guy who makes our newsletter, for a common American idiom comprised of a verb and a noun which is very mild language, all things considered. Ста Деюс has no credibility: He gets on a list as a newbie, and starts playing policeman. He likes to hear himself talk, and he speaks of nothing, even when he's not pitching a fit. One nice thing about leaving Debian-User is I left most of the people like Ста Деюс behind. Five minutes after reading Ста Деюс's hissy fit, I redirected his posts to /dev/null. His conflict to tech ratio is just too high for me. And hellekin, thank you for the great newsletters, and don't worry about little minds like Ста Деюс. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] I'm sorry
Hi all, An email I thought was going to just five people went to the list. It was an accident, and I'm sorry. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
Lol! I recently happened to be researching the different soundsystem architectures, after incinerating pulseaudio on my laptop/Wheezy and then having different problems, and found --> https://wiki.debian.org/Sound What struck me of particular interest were the three diagrams of how alsa/jack/pulseaudio perceive the sound architecture. I couldn't help but think that systemd very likely has the same structure. The "mother, may I?/None shall pass/TRON MCP" structure. Developers often hang to a general pattern of designing things; I cant see why the designer behind pulseaudio would be different. Best argument against systemd I've seen to date. SWS On Feb 27, 2015 11:45 PM, "Steve Litt" wrote: > On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:18:15 -0600 > "T.J. Duchene" wrote: > > > > With respect to all, I think that a measure of objectivity is called > > for here. I think that because personality clashes that Debian's > > entire systemd discussion has lost any sense of reality long ago. > > You know, T.J., I might just agree with you, *if* you can show me a > block diagram of the systemd ecosystem, *complete with interaction > lines as well as functional blocks*. > > You know, like this: > > http://troubleshooters.com/lpm/201202/images/email_arch_personal.png > > Or these: > > http://troubleshooters.com/lpm/200803/images/server_app.png > http://troubleshooters.com/lpm/200803/images/client_app.png > > Or these: > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_process_overview.png > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_daemontools.png > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_minimal_service.png > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_dnscache_block_diagram.png > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/djbdns/images/mm_tinydns_block_diagram.png > > Or this: > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/nullmailer/images/nullmailer_mm.png > > But not the following, because it's boxes with no lines: > > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Systemd_components.svg/440px-Systemd_components.svg.png > > Nor this, because it's obviously incomplete as a representation of the > systemd ecosphere: > > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Linux_kernel_unified_hierarchy_cgroups_and_systemd.svg/440px-Linux_kernel_unified_hierarchy_cgroups_and_systemd.svg.png > > > Bottom line is this: If you make a modular system with thin interfaces > and sane components, somebody will make a block diagram representing it, > accurately, in its entirety. > > It could be argued that the email, sockets, and djb software systems I > diagrammed were much simpler than systemd. Fair enough, but I'm one guy > doing this stuff in my spare time, not six guys getting paid full time > by Red Hat. I'm sure one of the geniuses Red Hat hired could have > diagrammed system accurately and completely. Heck, I often do that > *before* I write software, just so the system turns out architecturally > sound. > > Let's see the block diagram. Prove systemd doesn't have grave > architectural problems. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
> > > > http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/ > > > > some computers need a partition table on the usb-stick to boot. > > unetbootin should take care of that ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Easy forkability
> > So, i see for protection two ways: technical, like minimalism for easy > forking, and community driven development of the project. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] What if systemd infects the kernel?
I have been aware of the pending assimilation of systemd into the kernel since Linus dramatically rejected Kay Sievers' code last spring. Recently there has been renewed chatter about the impending doom. But I'm not quite clear how that would affect devuan. Hoping you can help me get a grip on the situation: Would a systemd-infected kernel bring devuan to its knees? IOW will devuan require a systemd-free kernel to run properly? Would the VUAs be able to disinfect the kernel? Or is that something that would have to go through Linus? Is there any chance that the kernel devs would be willing to maintain two separate kernel versions? Or will devuan be up a creek if/when that happens? I'm assuming the VUAs have thought about this - I can't imagine they would they be going through this monumental effort only to be foiled by a systemd kernel - and that there is a solution. Please enlighten me. :) golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 04:32:36PM -0500, Neo Futur wrote: > > *** Why is everybody looking for the One Ring to Rule Them All? Can't > > we have unity through diversity? Are we all subject of Mordor's torpor > > and subjugation? > > which makes me think some kind of broken ring, or melted ring, could > be an idea for the devuan or rootslinux logo . . . breaking free from > the evil mordor ring that attacked the community . . . It could be the One Ring, or it could be The Matrix. I think penguins walking out of jail gives a similar idea, while using a more universal symbol. Perhaps I should try my hand at photo-shopping, err.. gimping it. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [D OFFLIST ng] Devuan Weekly News XI
> OFFLIST > Glad it was not OFFLIST - it shows true colors. > I'd suggest we not discuss the meaning or connotation of "kickass" > anymore. The guy who originally had the hissy-fit, Ста Деюс, had been on > the list one whole day (with three basically non-contributory posts) > when he decided to go off on the guy who makes our newsletter, for a > common American idiom comprised of a verb and a noun which is very mild > language, all things considered. Ста Деюс has no credibility: He gets > on a list as a newbie, and starts playing policeman. He likes to hear > himself talk, and he speaks of nothing, even when he's not pitching a > fit. One nice thing about leaving Debian-User is I left most of the > people like Ста Деюс behind. > The lack of understanding that other humans from other cultures might have other measures is astounding and deeply offensive to me. Five minutes after reading Ста Деюс's hissy fit, I redirected his posts > to /dev/null. His conflict to tech ratio is just too high for me. > I have neither the time, inclination, or patience for Internet drama. I will keep it short(ish) and to the point. This post reminds me why I changed so many years ago from being an Open Source net-contributor to an Open Source net-consumer. This kind of petty politicking, offlist clique-forming, and what can in my view only be described as the backstabbing a new community member that - despite obvious cultural and linguistical barriers - tries to make some form of contribution is outright disgusting. Please keep your unfounded and irrational personal opinions of other people to yourself - you are calling out a new member for "playing policeman" whilst doing exactly that. Who handed you the jackboots and baton and put you on that spot? Moreover, he isn't even playing *policeman* - he is simply asking the list to keep the discussion civil, which might have come across as harsh due to his less-than perfect command of the English language. As this is a free, and supposedly open community, everybody has a voice, and everybody else has the right to respond (or not) to what is being communicated. Your ill-advised post and attitude likely pushed away a new member of the community. You mention your reasons for leaving Debian-User, whilst engaging in exactly the same behavior. Ста might well be a productive contributor - all I have seen from him so far is that he is interested in this project, and he is simply "kicking the tires" to make sure this is a project he is happy to invest time and effort into. ugh :( ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI
> > this coming from the person that has the initials for "shut the hell up" > as their signature. > "sthu" is actually how you would spell "Ста" in Latin - he is simply singing off with his first name, like a normal person. "С" = "S" in English "т" = "th" phonetically in English "а" = "u" phonetically in English in this context. Between your's and Steves' ignorance, I am done with Devuan for today, and it isn't even 10 in the morning yet. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
