Re: [Dng] FreeBSD experiment
Am Dienstag, 24. Februar 2015 schrieb Robert Storey: > Although I'm very hopeful that Devuan will be my future distro of choice, > we're still not there yet. I thought it might be prudent for me to survey > the other possibilities that do not depend on systemd. So yesterday, I > decided to give FreeBSD (actually, PC-BSD) a trial run. > > I'm sorry to say that it was disappointing. In fact, pretty much a failure. > I installed it on both my desktop and laptop. In both cases, the only video > driver I was able to run was VESA. That basically kills it for doing any > kind of multimedia, other than listening to music. > > The other big disappointment was with power management. It doesn't seem > that FreeBSD does cpu frequency scaling, though perhaps it does and I just > don't know how to enable it. Anyway, my cpu was running flat out, and on > the laptop this meant the fan ran constantly at top speed. I could have > fried an egg on the keyboard. > > So, I'm reluctantly going to scratch FreeBSD from my list. > > I do have Slackware installed on both machines. It's multimedia performance > is fine, and power management is a non-issue. However, it's missing many > useful apps which Debian and Ubuntu have. It also lacks one of the drivers > I would need for my current desktop USB wireless adaptor, though possibly > that could be compiled in (or the adaptor replaced). > > Thus, my great hope for the future remains Devuan. > > cheers, > Robert > When you go for FreeBSD, then you'll must read the handbook. I have all my servers and laptops moved over to FreeBSD and I am very pleased: power consumtion is lower than wheezy, configurability is at least equal. But without reading the docs you are scrued. Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
( renaming the thread ) > I think this question goes together with the badge or logo question. It does ! > It must go beyond "sans-systemd"; exactly its much more than just "sans systemd", its a general philosophy of design and openness > it is more about principles. Let's list some: > > - freedom of choice, > - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, > - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum I keep those 3 for my idea of a "roots linux" foundation > > Don't know if KISS goes into details, but maybe it could inspire the > logo. great idea, KISS is a short and simple word that could summarize most of the important ideas, a kiss, for you, from the roots of linux could be an idea for a logo ! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
dear Neo Futur, On Tue, 24 Feb 2015, Neo Futur wrote: > its a general philosophy of design and openness FYI, I'm busy on such a topic for my Ph.D dissertation and will be happy to share the results once finished. > > it is more about principles. Let's list some: > > > > - freedom of choice, > > - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, > > - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum > I keep those 3 for my idea of a "roots linux" foundation let me recommend you use the term GNU/Linux. Probably even more than the Linux kernel development, it is the GNU project that kept alive such principles of design in user-space. also please consider the Dyne.org foundation as an ally in your quest to start a new foundation, or perhaps as an existing device you can use to bring forward the activities you intend to promote with your idea of a foundation. Managing an institutional shell for free software projects is an effort that can well be shared, if transparence on intentions and coincidence of ideals is there. If you like to share, I'd be interested in knowing what you envision would be the activities such a foundation should carry on. Even when talking about philosophy and design I think it is very important to bring examples and concrete projects that are vectors for people's action. > great idea, KISS is a short and simple word that could summarize most > of the important ideas, a kiss, for you, from the roots of linux > could be an idea for a logo ! I guess this isn't the best way to introduce Devuan to the public: its a bit too pretextuous to incarnate the roots of the Linux kernel development. We are still struggling to produce an alpha and I wish our communication reflects the current phase of the progress rather than more ideals than those we already stated in the public and that also raised some educated skepticism and criticism as they weren't yet based on concrete achievements. Said that, I hope this message does not discourage you, but helps channel the enthusiasm in good productive ways. ciao -- Jaromil, Dyne.org Free Software Foundry (est. 2000) We are free to share code and we code to share freedom Web: https://j.dyne.org Contact: https://j.dyne.org/c.vcf GPG: 6113 D89C A825 C5CE DD02 C872 73B3 5DA5 4ACB 7D10 Confidential communications: https://keybase.io/jaromil signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Looking for advices in preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan
Le 23/02/2015 20:15, Anto a écrit : What is not clear to me is that, what will happen to udev or all systemd related packages that are currently required by nginx-extras and php5-fpm for instance? Will I need to do certain tweak or will switching the repository to Devuan and do dist-upgrade be enough to strip anything related to systemd? Hello Anto. I have used Nginx on Squeeze and I am pretty sure it was missing extras. I had to compile and install all Nginx and php-fpm packages from a third party repository to have it - I wanted to use the PAM module as intermediate to Kerberos authentication. But I can tell you it is all available out of the box on Wheezy. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists
Доброго времени суток, Renaud. Спасибо за ответ, Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:07:23 -0300, вы писали: > "Usspookes Lovesystemd" wrote: > > > FUCK YOU > > Qu'en termes gracieux ces choses là sont dites... Just filter out the non-human! С уважением, Ста. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 13:33:01 +0700 Ста Деюс wrote: > > > FUCK YOU > > Qu'en termes gracieux ces choses là sont dites... > Just filter out the non-human! Will do. Идите с Богом Ron. -- Silent enim leges inter arma. -- Marcus Tullius Cicero -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] logo again.
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:04:43AM +, Noel Torres wrote: > > Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms. Which is why I thought a two-armed spiral, based on a real galaxy, would be appropriate. Clearly different from Debian's spiral, anyway. The Milky Way indeed seems to have two main arms, with two vestigial arms between them. But there is a dearth of photos of the Milky Way that clearly shows the spiral arms, and this is likely to continue for at least myriads of years. There is a public-domain drawing of the Milky Way, but it presents the Milky Way as a barred galaxy, and the par seems to have been kind of air-brushed onto the image rather than integral to the staarfield. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Artist%27s_impression_of_the_Milky_Way_(updated_-_annotated).jpg And a schematic diagram of the arms, which appears to be under the Gnu Free Documentation license: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Milky_Way_Arms.svg I'd like to see the first of these worked up into a simple but interesting logo image. Something that's effective in only two colors (such as black and white, or any other foreground-background pair) and still has some - but not all - of the complexity of reality. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 05:47:04AM +, Isaac Dunham wrote: > > > > Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! > > Erm...I'm reading that kdbus was *not* merged. > > FWIW, kdbus was specifically mentioned when Linus blacklisted Kay Sievers. > V3 seems to have gotten a lot of "This needs a *lot* more documentation". Indeed: the only reference to /kdbus/i in kernel's git log (as of 4.0-rc1) is a comment in v3.10-rc1-4-g857a2be. -- // If you believe in so-called "intellectual property", please immediately // cease using counterfeit alphabets. Instead, contact the nearest temple // of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all // your writing needs, for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory prices. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On 2015-02-22 20:11, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > [...] > 2) When the DE's main menu pops > up, will the user be able to _immediately_ start typing characters > and see a list of applications filtered to match what is being > typed? > [...] Hello there, I am aware of two ways to achieve this, which are not mentioned in this thread yet. Both of it is used in the Xubuntu-based distro Voyager which is also using XFCE as default DE. Whiskermenu: http://www.leaseweblabs.com/2014/04/new-xfce-features-xubuntu-14-04-trusty-tahr/ Slingshot: http://www.noobslab.com/2014/06/slingscold-launcher-is-now-available.html Apart from that the usability team could also consider if they want to include a drop-down terminal like Tilda. A few XFCE linux distros also include a directory menu in the top panel by default, with the home user directory as base directory and * as file pattern to show all files and directories below the user folder. I think that's quite neat as well. Best, Wolfgang ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] OT - It may be only one file, but it does point to the bigger problem
On Mon, 23 Feb 2015 16:46:34 -0600 "T.J. Duchene" wrote: > > > > My philosopher as a free software author is this: The buck stops > > with me. If my software screws up, it's my fault and my > > responsibility to fix, regardless of the actual root cause is in > > code I wrote or a tool I use. > > > > If I were having problems with two different compilers treating my > > code two different ways, I'd #ifdef the hell out of it to kludge it > > back to working order on both. > > > > But that's just me. I've seen a lot of free software authors say > > "hey, it's not my fault, it's the __ library or tool. Doesn't > > help the user a heck of a lot. > > > > SteveT > > > > That's a fair point, in an overall sense, Steve. I'm afraid as a > matter of practicality, I must disagree. > > Debugging on a compiler is a very specific skill-set. Asking someone > who doesn't do that every day to fix what is probably a compiler bug > is asking a lot - especially when you may have to venture into the > realm of processor mnemonics and specific registers to fix the > problem. > > In my opinion, that is especially relevant when dealing with ARM > because there are so many makers of ARM processors with specific > tweaks. > > T.J. Ahhh, now we're in my turf: Troubleshooting. If ARM restricts your choice of compilers, then I'll agree with you vis-a-vis ARM, sort of. For the wider application of my philosophy, it's amazing how little subject matter expertise (in this case tracing a compiler all the way down to instructions and registers) one needs in order to troubleshoot very effectively. Just as one example, in my classes I teach the power of having one system malfunctioning and one not malfunctioning. You can continue making each like the other until you can toggle the symptom with one statement. I call it "exploit the differences", and it's very powerful. So, let's say that I can narrow it down to (just to pull an imaginary example out of the air) clang crashing on memset() while gcc doesn't. Obviously, I'd better be sure the locale is the same on both. The next step could be writing a simplest case that does nothing but a memset, and see if it still crashes on memset(). If so, then I could write my own memset, and see if that crashes, and investigate why. Eventually perhaps, on clang, I could ifdef in my own memset(). Or, if I have the skills, I could trace memset into assembler. Perhaps a single memset wouldn't reproduce the symptom. I can then keep reducing the program until I get the smallest program that can reproduce the symptom, and experiment with that. And of course, the most likely scenario will be that it's *my* bad code, not the compilers, but even if I can prove it's the compiler's, I can work around it while I wait for the compiler guys to fix their compiler now that I've reported the problem. When I find a situation of unexpected behavior with a library or tool, I usually just work around it and report it to the library devs. The last thing the user needs is me and the library devs pointing fingers at each other. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] KDE systemd lock-in
On Mon, 23 Feb 2015 22:33:28 + Noel Torres wrote: > On Saturday, 21 de February de 2015 18:52:22 Nate Bargmann escribió: > > * On 2015 20 Feb 11:56 -0600, Steve Litt wrote: > > > On Fri, 20 Feb 2015 08:59:33 -0800 > > > > > > Go Linux wrote: > > > > We all knew this was coming . . . > > > > > > > > KDE Will Depend on 'logind' and 'timedated' in 6 Months > > > > > > > > https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/02/20/101235 > > > > Following on here since I inadvertently deleted Go Linux's post. > > > > Ughh, so they will apparently drop "legacy" support. Why? What > > does it hurt? Why is backward compatibility anathema to these > > people? I couldn't care less if they want to use various systemd > > services, but why can there only be one way? Imagine the chaos if > > the maintainers of the C library behaved in a like manner (okay, > > we'd have Python, but I digress ;-). > > > > I guess that I am simply too dense to "get" the current paradigm. > > Actually, I do get it and this is now simply unacceptable behavior > > from supposedly free software projects. > > > > - Nate > > This is the same as depending on a library like QT. > > The article specifies it will not depend on systemd as init, just on > its services logind and timedated. > > Why not? If I were a developer and I had a library or service doing > part of my work, I would link to it and delete duplicated code on my > side. > > I do not re-program printf everytime I need some output. > > er Envite Using somebody else's supposedly reusable code has costs and benefits. The benefit is that you needn't write nor maintain the code, and your copy of the functionality works the same as everyone else's. The cost is one more thing the user must install, one more dependency, and that your code can now be broken by somebody else's mistake. The printf() functionality is a perfect example of all benefit and no cost. Old, tested, known good, pretty much one for one code to functionality, or at least is useful for just about every C program that inputs or outputs. But consider if you needed an enhancement of printf() that would prepend the date. You could either code it yourself, or you could use that functionality from the kitchen-sink library. Kitchen-sink has 700 API functions, and has a dependency tree 4 deep and 15 wide at level 3. Incorporating Kitchen-Sink brings in code from twelve different projects of varying quality. Some of these dependencies aren't even offered by some distro package managers, so they must be hand compiled (sometimes impossible) or retrieved from a repository you might or might not trust. All to save five lines of code on your part. I don't usually reinvent the wheel, but if all I need is a single spoke, I'm darn well not going to weld on a wheel. And if what I need is a hex bolt, I'm not going to weld on a wheel and then re-fashion its axle to be a hex bolt. In this particular case, where systemd code is needed, and systemd comes from untrusted vendors with a pattern and practice of API changes, that's a cost I would *never* put up with if I had a choice. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] logo again.
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 07:28:39AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:04:43AM +, Noel Torres wrote: > > There is a public-domain drawing of the Milky Way, but it presents > the Milky Way as a barred galaxy, and the par seems to have been kind > of air-brushed onto the image rather than integral to the staarfield. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Artist%27s_impression_of_the_Milky_Way_(updated_-_annotated).jpg Actually, the problem is that there isn't enough "reality" in the details of an artist's sketch. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] logo again.
At 24/02/2015 11:28 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:04:43AM +, Noel Torres wrote:
>
> Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms.
Except when they don't ;) as in the case of NGC 4725. (
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap130530.html )
:) Tzup
-.___.("\-``'-/") Tzu-Pei Chen (tc...@ardebil.com.au)
.-' ( o _o )ARDEBIL PTY LTD
( _. `(._Y_) Melbourne, Australia
-\ \_-.._`--'.._ http://www.ardebil.com.au/
'-(il) ''-.(li)
"In spite of the cost of living, it still seems popular."
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Re: [Dng] FreeBSD experiment
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 11:12:51 +0800 Robert Storey wrote: > Although I'm very hopeful that Devuan will be my future distro of > choice, we're still not there yet. I thought it might be prudent for > me to survey the other possibilities that do not depend on systemd. > So yesterday, I decided to give FreeBSD (actually, PC-BSD) a trial > run. > > I'm sorry to say that it was disappointing. In fact, pretty much a > failure. I installed it on both my desktop and laptop. In both cases, > the only video driver I was able to run was VESA. That basically > kills it for doing any kind of multimedia, other than listening to > music. I didn't have that problem with PC-BSD, it seemed to get resolution right. A fairly substantial test concluded that I could run my business on PC-BSD, including videos. As far as frequency scaling, I didn't test that. [snip] > > I do have Slackware installed on both machines. It's multimedia > performance is fine, and power management is a non-issue. However, > it's missing many useful apps which Debian and Ubuntu have. It also > lacks one of the drivers I would need for my current desktop USB > wireless adaptor, though possibly that could be compiled in (or the > adaptor replaced). My tests of Slackware indicated I could not use it to run by business. Neither could Arch nor *too. > Thus, my great hope for the future remains Devuan. What I found was that PC-BSD would do the job. OpenBSD is the best OS I've ever seen, and I would have moved to that a year ago, except that its VM ability is disfunctional, meaning I can't run those few apps that don't run on OpenBSD. Also, OpenBSD's file system's performance on file creates and deletes is abyssmal, but that's not a big deal for my use case. Manjaro is a great distro, available in both a systemd and a OpenRC boot variety. The OpenRC variety is trivial to turn into runit or Epoch. It has the pacman package manager, which I consider a little better than apt. I've been planning to go the Manjaro route. Until I saw what everyone's doing with Devuan. Reading this mailing list, it looks to me like Devuan is going far beyond what Debian *ever* did in creating a modular, Unix Philosophy distro, without sacrificing ease of installation, installer quality, or reasonable GUI usage. So Manjaro has fallen from my expected path forward to my backup plan, and I'm planning on using Devuan, even though it's based on Debian. Because, from my perspective, Devuan is addressing a lot of complaints I had about Debian long before systemd rared its ugly head. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 03:44:56 -0500 Neo Futur wrote: > ( renaming the thread ) > > > I think this question goes together with the badge or logo > > question. > It does ! > > > It must go beyond "sans-systemd"; > exactly its much more than just "sans systemd", its a general > philosophy of design and openness If you're talking about Devuan, yes, it is! I got on the Devuan mailing list just to escape systemd, and have been pleasantly surprised by how Devuan is re-architecting everything. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] KDE systemd lock-in
- Original Message - > From: "T.J. Duchene" > > Gnome already depends on systemd, but the apps do not. Not exactly true. My eyes were open to the systemd problem when I installed brasero on Jessie and it wanted to change my init system. Brasero depends on gvfs to detect removable media, and that in turn, through a chain of dependencies, depends on libpam-systemd. That depends on systemd-sysv | systemd-shim. After some debate, that last dependency was changed to systemd-shim | systemd-sysv. That it required any debate at all makes me wonder where some of the Debian devs' heads are at. So note that without the existence of the 3rd party systemd-shim, Many gnome apps do in fact depend on systemd as init. -Rob ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
Le 24/02/2015 10:49, Jaromil a écrit : dear Neo Futur, On Tue, 24 Feb 2015, Neo Futur wrote: >its a general philosophy of design and openness FYI, I'm busy on such a topic for my Ph.D dissertation and will be happy to share the results once finished. > >it is more about principles. Let's list some: > > > > - freedom of choice, > > - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, > > - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum > I keep those 3 for my idea of a "roots linux" foundation let me recommend you use the term GNU/Linux. Probably even more than the Linux kernel development, it is the GNU project that kept alive such principles of design in user-space. also please consider the Dyne.org foundation as an ally in your quest to start a new foundation, or perhaps as an existing device you can use to bring forward the activities you intend to promote with your idea of a foundation. Managing an institutional shell for free software projects is an effort that can well be shared, if transparence on intentions and coincidence of ideals is there. If you like to share, I'd be interested in knowing what you envision would be the activities such a foundation should carry on. Even when talking about philosophy and design I think it is very important to bring examples and concrete projects that are vectors for people's action. > great idea, KISS is a short and simple word that could summarize most > of the important ideas, a kiss, for you, from the roots of linux > could be an idea for a logo ! I guess this isn't the best way to introduce Devuan to the public: its a bit too pretextuous to incarnate the roots of the Linux kernel development. We are still struggling to produce an alpha and I wish our communication reflects the current phase of the progress rather than more ideals than those we already stated in the public and that also raised some educated skepticism and criticism as they weren't yet based on concrete achievements. Said that, I hope this message does not discourage you, but helps channel the enthusiasm in good productive ways. ciao Sorry guys, I think I introduced confusion with the word "logo". This is because there was a previous discussion about a "badge", which I understood as something like "Powered by XX", "GNU inside", "Viewable with any browser", or "POSIX-compliant". I was not speaking of Devuan's logo at all. Inevitably, the idea of a badge leads to a foundation entitled to stamp distros with the badge. I am wondering if only a clear phrasing of the principles would be enough, without the impediments and the sectarism of a foundation. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] logo again.
On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 01:51:21AM +1100, Tzu-Pei Chen wrote: > At 24/02/2015 11:28 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:04:43AM +, Noel Torres wrote: > >> > >> Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms. > > Except when they don't ;) as in the case of NGC 4725. ( > http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap130530.html ) That must be a debian galaxy. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 09:57:29AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > If you're talking about Devuan, yes, it is! I got on the Devuan mailing > list just to escape systemd, and have been pleasantly surprised by how > Devuan is re-architecting everything. Does that meerly reflect how systemd is dearchitecting everything? Or are there things being rearchitected that aren't systemd issues? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
Le 22/02/2015 21:11, Jonathan Wilkes a écrit : 1) In the default desktop environment for Devuan, will there be an icon or other discoverable item the user can click to see a list of available wifi network connections? 2) When the DE's main menu pops up, will the user be able to _immediately_ start typing characters and see a list of applications filtered to match what is being typed? 3) In the default desktop environment for Devuan, when the user clicks the "Super" key (often has the Windows icon on it) will the DEs main menu pop up? Dear Jonathan, Not sure everything gets installed by default. One of the bad things of Debian and others was that a lot of applications were installed by default, applications you don't even know they are there, and what they are for. These apps not only take space on your disk, but slow down or even complicate system updates by their sole presence. Suppose you haven't a wifi interface; why would you need a gui to configure it? I will only answer your first point, since I have nothing to add to what Steve Litt replied to the others. For the first question, I currently use three apps, wpa_supplicant, wpa_roam and wpa_gui, currently in two packages in Wheezy. wpa_supplicant talks to your wifi interface, taking instructions from its configuration file. It selects, from the list of wifi stations you have put in the config file, which one it can connect to. wpa_roam is a helper application which allows the system to invoke wpa_supplicant when your wifi interface detects a network. Description in the following howto: http://www.debuntu.org/how-to-wifi-roaming-with-wpa-supplicant/ wpa_gui is a helper GUI to fill the configuation file. You only need it when you must connect to a new station or something is going wrong. It can scan the network, so that you can select a station, then help you writing the properties of the station into the config file. You can also use it to connect/disconnect. I discovered the name of wicd on this list recently. I didn't try it, therefore I can't compare, but it looks that it has more diverse interfaces than wpasupplicant, CLI, GUI and even Curses. I will probably try it the first time I install Devuan on a laptop. I imagine neither wpasupplicant nor wicd will be infected by Systemd, and you'll have the choice between them. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Looking for advices in preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan
On 24/02/15 00:32, Nuno Magalhães wrote: On wheezy i don't see nginx-extras depending on udev or any systemd*. I don't have jessie but i couldn't trace any dependencies on packages.debian.org either. Where did you see these dependencies? Can you apt-rdepend them? The closest i could find was nginx-extras » nginx-common » init-system-helpers but it goes on to perl-base » dpkg » libselinux1 » libpcre3 and that's it. Maybe i missed something in libselinux1? Could you be using a third-party module that may have other dependencies? I didn't check Recommends. Yes, I need some of the nginx's third-party modules especially HttpHeadersMore module. That is why I chose nginx-extras. I had some issues on my VPS using nginx that I dpkg-buildpackage myself. I forgot the detail of the issues as it was about 7 years ago. Since then I decided to stay with what ever version of nginx-extras on testing repository. Did you mean to check the dependencies of nginx-extras to other packages using "apt-cache depends"? If so here is the output. # apt-cache depends nginx-extras nginx-extras Depends: nginx-common Depends: perl Depends: perl-base Depends: libc6 Depends: libexpat1 Depends: libgd3 Depends: libgeoip1 Depends: libluajit-5.1-2 Depends: libpam0g Depends: libpcre3 Depends: libperl5.20 Depends: libssl1.0.0 Depends: libxml2 Depends: libxslt1.1 Depends: zlib1g Suggests: nginx-doc Conflicts: nginx-full Conflicts: nginx-light Breaks: nginx It does not explicitly show the dependencies to the packages that depend on any systemd related packages. But I remember that I can not install nginx-extras after I cleaned up my VPS as much as possible from using systemd related packages. Unfortunately, I didn't take a note of what made it fails to install. Your comment about "Recommends" makes me think that I didn't properly do the clean up. I think I will re-do that, but start from Debian squeeze. I will log my SSH window this time, as I don't want to re-do this. Here is what I plan to do: 1. Re-install Xen DomU image of Debian squeeze 2. Add the following files: # cat /etc/apt/preferences.d/blocksystemd Package: *systemd* Pin: origin "" Pin-Priority: -1 # # cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/77norecommends APT::Install-Recommends "0"; APT::Install-Suggests "0"; 3. Keep switching the repository from squeeze --> wheezy --> jessie --> testing, and do dist-upgrade on each step 4. I will pin some of the packages to their previous version when they fail to be upgraded Due to the pinning, I might not get the latest version of packages from testing repositories. But I think I can live with that until Devuan is being released. Is there anything that I need to add in order to really avoid using anything related to systemd? Or perhaps, something that I need to do which could provide more information on the dependencies on systemd and its related packages, in case that would be needed for Devuan development? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Looking for advices in preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan
On 24/02/15 11:26, Didier Kryn wrote: Hello Anto. I have used Nginx on Squeeze and I am pretty sure it was missing extras. I had to compile and install all Nginx and php-fpm packages from a third party repository to have it - I wanted to use the PAM module as intermediate to Kerberos authentication. But I can tell you it is all available out of the box on Wheezy. Didier Thanks a lot Didier for pointing that out. In that case, I will start the installation of nginx-extras and php5-fpm after my VPS is on Debian wheezy, not from Debian squeeze that I previously planned. Kind regards, Anto ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] logo again.
On Tue, 2/24/15, Hendrik Boom wrote: Subject: [Dng] logo again. To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2015, 6:28 AM On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:04:43AM +, Noel Torres wrote: > > Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms. Which is why I thought a two-armed spiral, based on a real galaxy, would be appropriate. Clearly different from Debian's spiral, anyway. [snip] - I submitted this logo last night. It's not a 'real' galaxy but points in that direction. It solves the visual limitation of spiral + some text tacked on which just wasn't working IMO: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Infinity.png This is a VERY rough concept - almost pencil on paper - that attempts to merge Gravis' negative spiral with the font of the logo. It also echoes the yin/yang motif of an early logo submission and the infinity symbol. Using just the swirl on the LH or RH side is also a possibility. The font is Paprika ( http://www.1001freefonts.com/paprika.font ) which has a Public domain, GPL, OFL license. http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Infinity.png If you don't like the colors - favs of mine - just use your imagination. ;) It was late, I was tired. And I just wanted to get something on 'paper'. I'm hoping that someone with serious Inkscape skills (that's not me) will jump in to take this idea to the next level. Cheers! golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 115
On 24/02/2015 16:33, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: Inevitably, the idea of a badge leads to a foundation entitled to stamp distros with the badge. I am wondering if only a clear phrasing of the principles would be enough, without the impediments and the sectarism of a foundation. You make a convincing point. Although a foundation wouldn't be a bad distro-neutral rallying point, now you mention it... Plus there would be lapel pins and secret handshakes, and all the other fun stuff ;-) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] OT - It may be only one file, but it does point to the bigger problem!
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:57 AM, Noel Torres wrote: > We have RAID tools like mdadm for RAID, and filesystems like ext4 or Reiserfs > for file storage. > > Why would I want a tool combining both? You'd want one so you can, for isntance, avoid a RAID5 write hole. ZFS seems pretty cool, the only downside i see is perhaps more fragmentation that other systems. Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] logo again.
On Tue, 2/24/15, Go Linux wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] logo again. To: dng@lists.dyne.org, "Hendrik Boom" Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2015, 10:33 AM On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:04:43AM +, Noel Torres wrote: > > Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms. Which is why I thought a two-armed spiral, based on a real galaxy, would be appropriate. Clearly different from Debian's spiral, anyway. [snip] Here's a lighter version of the infinity logo: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Infinity2.png (Apologies for posting the same link twice in my earlier email - not quite awake yet.) golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
oh good. glad to read that our linux kernel friends are more sane than our distro friends. --Gravis On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Isaac Dunham wrote: > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:40:06AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 10:26:01AM -0500, Gravis wrote: > > > > Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! > > > > > > i'm weary of KDBUS but live patching is something i consider too > dangerous. > > > --Gravis > > > > But why would it have to depend on systemd? > > Erm...I'm reading that kdbus was *not* merged. > > FWIW, kdbus was specifically mentioned when Linus blacklisted Kay Sievers. > V3 seems to have gotten a lot of "This needs a *lot* more documentation". > > Thanks, > Isaac Dunham > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] wicd & wpasupplicant (WAS: Re: three important UI features
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 05:06:47PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > > > I discovered the name of wicd on this list recently. I didn't > try it, therefore I can't compare, but it looks that it has more > diverse interfaces than wpasupplicant, CLI, GUI and even Curses. I > will probably try it the first time I install Devuan on a laptop. > > I imagine neither wpasupplicant nor wicd will be infected by > Systemd, and you'll have the choice between them. It's not entirely a choice. wicd depends on wicd-daemon, which depends on wpa-supplicant. It looks as if, to some extent, wicd may constiture still more interfaces to wpasupplicant, possibly with some state or smarts of its own. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On Mon, 2/23/15, Noel Torres wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Monday, February 23, 2015, 3:28 PM [cut] > > I'd prefer any logo that does not use english initials or play on words. > > er Envite ___ Here's a possible 'badge' sticker idea: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Freedom.png It's not really a logo but didn't know where else to put it. :) It incorporates the shell image suggested by Jaromil some time ago. Can't you just feel the Devuan love? golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 10:26:49 AM dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: > Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?) > From: Isaac Dunham > To: Hendrik Boom > CC: dng@lists.dyne.org > > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:40:06AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 10:26:01AM -0500, Gravis wrote: > > > > Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! > > > > > > > > > > > > i'm weary of KDBUS but live patching is something i consider too > > > dangerous. > > > --Gravis > > > > > > > > But why would it have to depend on systemd? > > Erm...I'm reading that kdbus was *not* merged. > > FWIW, kdbus was specifically mentioned when Linus blacklisted Kay Sievers. > V3 seems to have gotten a lot of "This needs a *lot* more documentation". > > Thanks, > Isaac Dunham Thank you so much for posting that, Isaac. The information is *greatly* appreciated. I've been watching kdbus from afar with considerable concern, do to the fact that Kay Sievers is involved. I have no feelings toward Kay, but his reputation with kernel code leaves something to be desired. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Xfce response
Hi all, Last week I volunteered (was volunteered?) to contact the Xfce team and ask them whether systemd loomed on their horizon. Here is the report that was promised. After a long chat with a couple of developers on the #xfce channel, it seems they have no plans to introduce hard systemd dependencies. A welcome change from certain DEs that are queueing up to staple logind to their own foreheads? They also recommended Consolekit2 as a compatible candidate login system, and said that Xfce plays well with OpenRC and SysVinit. Consolekit2 is a fork maintained independently of Xfce by one of their team. Please make of that what you wish as I don't know the ins and outs of these components. They confirmed that Xfce 4.12 will be released this weekend and recommended packaging it. The Whisker menu is now an Xfce project and is now at v1.50. There were some other recommendations -- useful Arch packages that might help with background info for a systemd-free distro. I have to pick those out of the channel log file -- please holler off-list if you want more details. Just passing on the news -- don't bite if I've misreported anything :-) All the best, David H ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] wicd & wpasupplicant (WAS: Re: three important UI features
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:31:54PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 05:06:47PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > > > > > > I discovered the name of wicd on this list recently. I didn't > > try it, therefore I can't compare, but it looks that it has more > > diverse interfaces than wpasupplicant, CLI, GUI and even Curses. I > > will probably try it the first time I install Devuan on a laptop. > > > > I imagine neither wpasupplicant nor wicd will be infected by > > Systemd, and you'll have the choice between them. > > It's not entirely a choice. wicd depends on wicd-daemon, which depends > on wpa-supplicant. > > It looks as if, to some extent, wicd may constiture still more > interfaces to wpasupplicant, possibly with some state or smarts of its > own. AFAICT, anything that can connect to a WPA network on Linux depends on wpa_supplicant to do so. iwconfig can only handle open or WEP networks; I haven't been able to find out if iw can do WPA. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
>> > I think this question goes together with the badge or logo question. It >>> must go beyond "sans-systemd"; > >> it is more about principles. Let's list some: > >> >> > - freedom of choice, >> > - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, >> > - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum > >> >> > Don't know if KISS goes into details, but maybe it could inspire the >> > logo. >> >> KISS Linux? >Unless the band has an objection to the use of its trademark. >Unlikely, since we're in a different business entirely. >Unless, of course, we choose to use the band's logo as well. My first vision was of the lips from Rocky Horror Show kissing Tux the penguin. Vernon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Logind alternative (spoiler: Consolekit fork)
Hi Everyone, I was getting desparate thinking there will be no alternative to systemd's logind. I also saw the consolekit was depreciated for quite a while. Alas! I was happy to find this just now: https://github.com/ConsoleKit2/ConsoleKit2 I would be happy to see this packaged for devuan. Cheers, Oz -- --- Imagine there's no countries it isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] KDE systemd lock-in
> From: Rob Owens > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > > - Original Message - > > > From: "T.J. Duchene" > > > > > > > > Gnome already depends on systemd, but the apps do not. > > Not exactly true. My eyes were open to the systemd problem when I > installed brasero on Jessie and it wanted to change my init system. > Brasero depends on gvfs to detect removable media, and that in turn, > through a chain of dependencies, depends on libpam-systemd. That > depends on systemd-sysv | systemd-shim. That's the joy of dependency chains for a binary Linux. Sad, but true. > > So note that without the existence of the 3rd party systemd-shim, > Many gnome apps do in fact depend on systemd as init. Rob, when discussing KDE, I was referring to direct dependencies, where the software links directly to something else. The fact that there are several, perhaps a handful, of instances where the DE itself is linked to systemd really wasn't what we were referring to. Applications are not directly linked to systemd and any third dependencies can be bypassed by compiling against an equivalent version of the DE's API. If you want to pursue your definition, that's all right, I can see what you mean. Overall, I feel that it is very circumspect and imprecise. The fact that KDE can be compiled against systemd-login does not mean that the something like "k3b" is also. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] without-systemd
Greets to all, Other obligations have consumed me, though I'm still lurking and reading when I can With regards to the general discussions surrounding systemd, its agenda and future, I find the most analogous situation would be what Microsoft attempted to accomplish with its version of Java, namely, subvert and supplant Sun's Java. With systemd, however, it won't be I.P. copyrights and patents preventing their usurpation of Linux, it will be the freedom of open source. The prevailing culture in large software vendors that exhibit a cavalier attitude regarding the quality and support of their products can be found in systemd. This same culture is much of the driving force which has incentivized the market towards adoption of OSS software. I began distrusting Red Hat years ago when I found they were selectively removing certain kernel modules and packages to prevent compatibility with competitor products/software. Systemd merely confirms my former suspicions. Red Hat may have momentum, but the light of day won't shine until RHEL 7 starts being implemented. That's when eyes will turn and begin looking elsewhere. and Devuan will be there. I was inspired to make an infographic. Use freely! --> http://i.imgur.com/C6hyWuo.png SWS ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Dng] Xfce response
> [ > From: David Harrison > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > > Last week I volunteered (was volunteered?) to contact the Xfce team and > ask them whether systemd loomed on their horizon. Here is the report > that was promised. > David, you are awesome! =) Thanks so much for taking the time to do this! > After a long chat with a couple of developers on the #xfce channel, it > seems they have no plans to introduce hard systemd dependencies. A > welcome change from certain DEs that are queueing up to staple logind to > their own foreheads? I really don't see any reason why any Unix DE should lock itself to one Unix style OS - even Linux. Although to be perfectly honest, I have no objections to optional soft dependencies to assist those who do use systemd. Leave people the saner choice for their personal need is all I ever ask. > They also recommended Consolekit2 as a compatible candidate login > system, and said that Xfce plays well with OpenRC and SysVinit. > Consolekit2 is a fork maintained independently of Xfce by one of their > team. Please make of that what you wish as I don't know the ins and outs > of these components. Basically, they are saying that they are using a different kit for suspend/hibernate rather than depending on systemd. > > They confirmed that Xfce 4.12 will be released this weekend and > recommended packaging it. The Whisker menu is now an Xfce project and is > now at v1.50. That's great news! I've been waiting for a new release for some time. I just hope that they updated DE to vsync with OpenGL instead of Xrandr. > Just passing on the news -- don't bite if I've misreported anything > > All the best, > No worries. Thanks! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] KDE systemd lock-in
* On 2015 24 Feb 09:16 -0600, Rob Owens wrote: > After some debate, that last dependency was changed to > systemd-shim | systemd-sysv. That it required any debate at all > makes me wonder where some of the Debian devs' heads are at. It makes me wonder if the idea of installing anew rather than upgrading in-place as Debian has historically been known for has begun to take hold. From that standpoint the original priority makes some sense with systemd as the default init. Those who planned to upgrade in place often hope to do so with the least amount of surprise and the current priority seems to adhere to that from what I have read. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 10:27:23 -0500 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 09:57:29AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > If you're talking about Devuan, yes, it is! I got on the Devuan > > mailing list just to escape systemd, and have been pleasantly > > surprised by how Devuan is re-architecting everything. > > Does that meerly reflect how systemd is dearchitecting everything? > Or are there things being rearchitected that aren't systemd issues? > > -- hendrik Well, first of all, understand the only Devuan I've run is Valentines, and I didn't peer too deeply under the hood. My opinions come from things the Devuan Developers say on this list. I've seen a replacement for udev which, if I'm not mistaken, can simply be substituted for udev or eudev. I've heard talk of ways to eliminate the need for dbus. Depending on other stuff, I might be involved in a no-dbus replacement for NetworkManager. Lots of similar stuff. All of this points to a distro that's friendly to an architecture of thin linkages between components, which is how I like it. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 17:06:47 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > I discovered the name of wicd on this list recently. I didn't > try it, therefore I can't compare, but it looks that it has more > diverse interfaces than wpasupplicant, CLI, GUI and even Curses. I > will probably try it the first time I install Devuan on a laptop. > > I imagine neither wpasupplicant nor wicd will be infected by > Systemd, and you'll have the choice between them. > > Didier As far as I know, wicd depends on dbus, which is why I'm thinking of making a substitute. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015, Steve Litt wrote: > As far as I know, wicd depends on dbus, which is why I'm thinking of > making a substitute. As mentioned in a previous thread, we are leaning towards connman these days one VUA is active patching some details in it and keeping contact with its upstream developers. Also my tests of connman-ui on xfce in the pre-alpha iso lead to a well usable substitute of nm-applet I don't recommend going for a ground-up development of such a component with the hope of having it included in Devuan 1.0. We do have different priorities and the choice between wicd and connman is rich enough for now. ciao -- Jaromil, Dyne.org Free Software Foundry (est. 2000) We are free to share code and we code to share freedom Web: https://j.dyne.org Contact: https://j.dyne.org/c.vcf GPG: 6113 D89C A825 C5CE DD02 C872 73B3 5DA5 4ACB 7D10 Confidential communications: https://keybase.io/jaromil ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Xfce response
hi David, On Tue, 24 Feb 2015, David Harrison wrote: > After a long chat with a couple of developers on the #xfce channel, thanks! > it seems they have no plans to introduce hard systemd dependencies. good news :^) > Consolekit2 is a fork maintained independently of Xfce by one of > their team. yes, Dima had already an exchange with him, we are coordinating. however for the 1.0 it seems that our loginkitd should be just enough for what we need, consolekit2 will be experimental and can be adopted after the 1.0 ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 07:10:59PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 10:27:23 -0500 > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 09:57:29AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > > If you're talking about Devuan, yes, it is! I got on the Devuan > > > mailing list just to escape systemd, and have been pleasantly > > > surprised by how Devuan is re-architecting everything. > > > > Does that meerly reflect how systemd is dearchitecting everything? > > Or are there things being rearchitected that aren't systemd issues? > > > > -- hendrik > > Well, first of all, understand the only Devuan I've run is Valentines, > and I didn't peer too deeply under the hood. My opinions come from > things the Devuan Developers say on this list. I've seen a replacement > for udev which, if I'm not mistaken, can simply be substituted for udev > or eudev. As far as I can tell, nothing's available *yet* that can *simply* be substituted for (e)udev. vdev is available and from what I understand should be able to provide what udev provides, but (a) I'm not sure what the status of libudev-compat is; (b) vdev doesn't have an init script or mkinitramfs integration yet; and (c) not all the compatability links are provided. As far as I know, that means that mount by label wouldn't work. mdev is available, but it has nothing available to provide libudev compatability at present; compatability links, an init script, and minimal mkinitramfs integration are provided, but you may need some hackery (equivs or repacking, plus manual configuration at a minimum) to replace udev with mdev if you have Xorg installed. Right now, I'm working on a redo of the /dev/disk/by-label links for mdev. (Parsing the default output of blkid safely is not trivial and obvious.) Once I test that, I plan to push it and modify vdev's disk.sh to handle /dev/disk/by-label/. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] FreeBSD, etc
> What I found was that PC-BSD would do the job. OpenBSD is the best OS > I've ever seen, and I would have moved to that a year ago, except that > its VM ability is disfunctional, meaning I can't run those few apps > that don't run on OpenBSD. Also, OpenBSD's file system's performance on > file creates and deletes is abyssmal, but that's not a big deal for my > use case. > > Manjaro is a great distro, available in both a systemd and a OpenRC > boot variety. The OpenRC variety is trivial to turn into runit or > Epoch. It has the pacman package manager, which I consider a little > better than apt. I've been planning to go the Manjaro route. > > Until I saw what everyone's doing with Devuan. Reading this mailing > list, it looks to me like Devuan is going far beyond what Debian *ever* > did in creating a modular, Unix Philosophy distro, without sacrificing > ease of installation, installer quality, or reasonable GUI usage. > > So Manjaro has fallen from my expected path forward to my backup plan, > and I'm planning on using Devuan, even though it's based on Debian. > Because, from my perspective, Devuan is addressing a lot of complaints >I had about Debian long before systemd rared its ugly head. > > SteveT Thanks for the info about Manjaro. I'll keep on my short list of options, which also include Slackware and PCLinuxOS. I'm happy to say that I figured out how to turn on cpu frequency scaling in FreeBSD, but the video driver issue remains unsolved. Of course, what I really want to see is that Devuan is a big success, so that I won't need a Plan B (even though it's always a good idea to have one). I discovered the joys of apt-get about 10 years ago and have no desire to abandon it, though I will if it means having to swallow systemd. A recurring wet dream of mine is that some big unsolvabe security compromise in systemd blows away the entire project, and Pottering gets fired and decides to move to Tibet and become a monk. cheers, ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
> vdev is available and from what I understand should be able to provide > what udev provides, but (a) I'm not sure what the status of > libudev-compat is; (b) vdev doesn't have an init script or mkinitramfs > integration yet; and (c) not all the compatability links are provided. > As far as I know, that means that mount by label wouldn't work. Regarding (a), it's coming pretty slowly. It's becoming clear that libudev-compat will need to be a wholly separate project from vdev. Although the udev API seems pretty straightforward, a functional re-implementation that does not depend on udev (or any device manager) will be somewhat large--I'm guessing several thousand lines of C. I'm going to try to borrow as much as I can from eudev and libsysdev. In fact, I'm open to simply merging libudev-compat with eudev upstream, if they're interested (I'm hoping Anthony will comment). Regarding (b) and (c), I hope to have that done by the end of this week. Thanks for your help on this, Isaac! -Jude On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 8:55 PM, Isaac Dunham wrote: > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 07:10:59PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 10:27:23 -0500 > > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 09:57:29AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > > > > If you're talking about Devuan, yes, it is! I got on the Devuan > > > > mailing list just to escape systemd, and have been pleasantly > > > > surprised by how Devuan is re-architecting everything. > > > > > > Does that meerly reflect how systemd is dearchitecting everything? > > > Or are there things being rearchitected that aren't systemd issues? > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > Well, first of all, understand the only Devuan I've run is Valentines, > > and I didn't peer too deeply under the hood. My opinions come from > > things the Devuan Developers say on this list. I've seen a replacement > > for udev which, if I'm not mistaken, can simply be substituted for udev > > or eudev. > > As far as I can tell, nothing's available *yet* that can *simply* > be substituted for (e)udev. > > vdev is available and from what I understand should be able to provide > what udev provides, but (a) I'm not sure what the status of > libudev-compat is; (b) vdev doesn't have an init script or mkinitramfs > integration yet; and (c) not all the compatability links are provided. > As far as I know, that means that mount by label wouldn't work. > > mdev is available, but it has nothing available to provide libudev > compatability at present; compatability links, an init script, and > minimal mkinitramfs integration are provided, but you may need some > hackery (equivs or repacking, plus manual configuration at a minimum) > to replace udev with mdev if you have Xorg installed. > > Right now, I'm working on a redo of the /dev/disk/by-label links for mdev. > (Parsing the default output of blkid safely is not trivial and obvious.) > Once I test that, I plan to push it and modify vdev's disk.sh to handle > /dev/disk/by-label/. > > Thanks, > Isaac Dunham > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
