Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd
On 2015-02-02 17:47, T.J. Duchene wrote: Funny thing. I hear a lot of complaining about systemd, and yes, i think some of it is justified, but consider this...Rather than joining the project and steering it in another direction, or creating patches to fix what you do not like, everyone is just standing about complaining. Now this is not to say that Devuan is sitting on its hands. No one here, minus FreeBSD seems to me at least to have a clear action plan. You cant avoid systemd forever, and at some point compatibility is going to have to be provided. Better now than later. I think FreeBSD and uselessd have the best approaches. Just for the case of devels advocate (yes deliberate pun) systemd can be compiled with an absolute minimum. OpenRC works just fine and it has all the rings and bells you would want from systemd: - logs (lol, welcome to 1980?) - cgroups management - parallel service start Interestingly, cgroups can be disabled and this is why this init runs on BSD, these just don't exist there. It really doesn't hurt to have a familiar software stack across different operating systems. Time wasted on retraining is time you could've used to do actual work. Especially if there's literally no benefit to said retraining. Regards, Michael ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd
On 2015-02-02 23:14, Gravis wrote: Unless Devuan intends to drop or fork every single piece of software that decides to use systemd's facilities, it's going to be a war of attrition as things go on, no matter the arguments against systemd. for the vast majority of programs that depend on systemd, you can just recompile programs with the flag to exclude systemd library dependencies with no further effort required. the things that are really intertwined with systemd are part of Gnome. patches and API implementations are being made for those parts. --Gravis How many packages are we talking about? Nobody is likely to compile a thousand packages all on their own. Think of their poor fingers. Michael ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd
I posted a list of packages in another thread. I think we should figure out which ones are easy to recompile and set up an automated build process to do that periodically, and parcel out the ones that aren't to people who can patch them. -Jude On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:47 AM, Michael Dec wrote: > On 2015-02-02 23:14, Gravis wrote: > >> Unless Devuan intends to drop or fork every single piece of software that >>> decides to use systemd's facilities, it's going to be a war of attrition >>> as >>> things go on, no matter the arguments against systemd. >>> >> >> for the vast majority of programs that depend on systemd, you can just >> recompile programs with the flag to exclude systemd library >> dependencies with no further effort required. the things that are >> really intertwined with systemd are part of Gnome. patches and API >> implementations are being made for those parts. >> --Gravis >> > How many packages are we talking about? Nobody is likely to compile a > thousand packages all on their own. Think of their poor fingers. > > Michael > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On 03/02/15 07:04, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2015 00:21:06 -0600 From: t.j.duch...@gmail.com To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd Message-ID: <2216145.ytyAqhlZeR@workstation> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Monday, February 02, 2015 11:32:52 PM dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: Devuan is probably going to have to provide some form of compatibility in the future. This will be the case, regardless of how you or I might feel on the subject, especially if kdbus gets integrated into the Linux kernel. If that happens, it might as well be "game over" for systems that do not provide at least a shim. By all means then, let Devuan provide a shim, at least in the short run. I think that uselessd or FreeBSD's compatibility projects are probably the most likely solutions. And you're on this list why? Seriously, T.J. why? Hey, Steve! Don't get me wrong here, I'm just expressing the _opinion_ that Systemd compatibility is going to be a greater problem down the road, especially since it seems likely that upstream projects, including the Linux kernel itself (via kdbus) are headed in the direction that they are. I was suggesting that some way of trapping systemd calls and resolving them will have to become a part of the system, even if Devuan does not have systemd itself. Otherwise, a lot of code is going to be have to dropped from the distribution or forked as time goes on. I was suggesting that systembsd's efforts might be of value in this area. Apparently, just saying that is annoying some people, and I apologize for that. Perhaps you are right, and it would be best if I kept my opinions to myself. T.J.'s opinions make a lot of sense to me and I suspect also to others reading this list. Many people who have in the past relied upon Debian Linux as a solid platform for doing productive work are now looking at various alternatives in the face of the systemd phenomenon, and some of these people are sure to be subscribing to the DNG mailing list in the hope of seeing some good news. I suppose FreeBSD is the obvious first destination for Debian refugees, and personally I am actively exploring that solution at the moment. But it would be very nice indeed if the Devuan project can be made to succeed, as Devuan would provide an attractive way of leveraging the ongoing vigorous development of the Linux kernel. I should remark that I am prepared to do more than wish the Devuan project well: in the longer term I am willing to assist actively in testing and coding if it turns out that I am capable of contributing positively. --Mike ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd
On Mon, 2015-02-02 at 16:54 -0600, t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: > On Monday, February 02, 2015 07:57:23 PM Vlad wrote: ... > I think that uselessd or FreeBSD's compatibility projects are probably the > most likely solutions. What about Guix with GNU dmd as init system? This is at least the GNU future (and does not involve systemd at all) :) http://www.gnu.org/software/dmd/ http://www.gnu.org/software/guix/ http://www.gnu.org/software/guix/#talks ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd
On Mon, 2015-02-02 at 19:25 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2015 02 Feb 07:53 -0600, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > I found this an interesting read: > IMO, it is time for a Devuan Alpha release, developer preview, or > something for this project to show the world it is serious and > developing a distribution. I do understand the desire to get things > reasonably stable prior to a beta release but remember Linus' mantra > from the early '90s, "Release early; release often." I also understand > scheduled plans and "When it's ready", but it is time for this project > to start putting its cards on the table. > > It is time. Yes please, +1 ;) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd
Exactly! that's what i feel and think about it. On 2015-02-02 15:46, Steve Litt wrote: On Mon, 2 Feb 2015 11:47:28 -0600 "T.J. Duchene" wrote: Funny thing. I hear a lot of complaining about systemd, and yes, i think some of it is justified, but consider this...Rather than joining the project and steering it in another direction, or creating patches to fix what you do not like, everyone is just standing about complaining. Now this is not to say that Devuan is sitting on its hands. If five hundred of us joined the systemd project, it wouldn't change even one of our major objections, for the following reasons: * Systemd's foundational design is bad * It's led by Poettering, whose ego prevails * There's too much bad about systemd to ever fix * Many of us believe Red Hat has a financial stake in screwing up Linux * Every minute contributed to systemd is a minute stolen from the likes of vdev and many other softwares and techniques to make a good, modular, DIYable OS. "Why don't you work from the inside to fix it" is a phrase as old as the hills, usually spoken by those enjoying the status quo. Imagine if Martin Luther King had run for congress instead of leading the Civil Rights Marches. What if Gandhi had run for Parliament instead of leading a nation in nonviolent civil disobedience? Maybe Linus should have worked with Tannenbaum to make Minix better. You mention "everyone is just standing about complaining" and I have two responses: 1) Not true 2) Sometimes complaining is a good thing We're not just complaining. A large number of people have made inroads, in several different ways, to ensure a future where systemd is not manditory. Oh, we complain while we do that, but we're doing it. You were on the Debian-User list in September, so you saw the morose futility coupled with livid anger. Look at the world just four months later: We have many, many alternatives today, including a whole project bringing in a systemd free Debian. Secondly, sometimes complaining is a good thing. Every social change, and life without systemd *is* a social change, begins with complaints. Remember in early 2014 when those of us on Debian-User but not on the developers list had bad feelings about systemd, but thought we were the only one? Later that year, we found each other through complaining, formed a community by complaining, and when we had critical mass, we went elsewhere and competed with the status quo. In fact, Linux' success began in a universe of complaining about Windows. Linux would have been nothing more or less than a cool Geek project, sort of like Raspberry Pi, were it not for the voluminous mid to late 1990's complaints about Windows. A chunk of us went to Linux en masse, and that's how Linux invaded big iron shops, in the guise of Samba servers and email servers and the like. In summary, complaining is a natural outgrowth of systemd, and has had the positive effects of coalescing a community to make systemd unnecessary, and in doing so, spawned a whole new generation of folks who understand OS underpinnings and write software to keep those underpinnings sane. Diverting such enthusiasm to helping with the systemd project would be counterproductive. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
I think it is fine that T.J.Duchene gives his opinion, although I disagree with him. I'm very optimistic about Systemd-free Linux, so optimistic that I think Devuan is simply preparing the future of Debian. The reason why RedHat develops and enforces systemd is clear to me: they have customers paying for a ready-made system that RedHat would maintain. They want to increase their productivity by introducing tools which automate things as much as possible, plus security-related features -- a valid sales argument. It makes full sense; that's their busyness model. But what are Debian maintainers/developpers working for? OK they try to provide an OS that's usable out of the box, but for who? Everybody, they claim, but this includes primarily people like themselves, geeks and hackers. And they likely will see geeks and hackers run away. Debian has taken a very wrong decision but they're going to have chances to change it. Didier Le 03/02/2015 10:10, R.M. Thomas a écrit : On 03/02/15 07:04, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2015 00:21:06 -0600 From: t.j.duch...@gmail.com To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd Message-ID: <2216145.ytyAqhlZeR@workstation> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Monday, February 02, 2015 11:32:52 PM dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: Devuan is probably going to have to provide some form of compatibility in the future. This will be the case, regardless of how you or I might feel on the subject, especially if kdbus gets integrated into the Linux kernel. If that happens, it might as well be "game over" for systems that do not provide at least a shim. By all means then, let Devuan provide a shim, at least in the short run. I think that uselessd or FreeBSD's compatibility projects are probably the most likely solutions. And you're on this list why? Seriously, T.J. why? Hey, Steve! Don't get me wrong here, I'm just expressing the _opinion_ that Systemd compatibility is going to be a greater problem down the road, especially since it seems likely that upstream projects, including the Linux kernel itself (via kdbus) are headed in the direction that they are. I was suggesting that some way of trapping systemd calls and resolving them will have to become a part of the system, even if Devuan does not have systemd itself. Otherwise, a lot of code is going to be have to dropped from the distribution or forked as time goes on. I was suggesting that systembsd's efforts might be of value in this area. Apparently, just saying that is annoying some people, and I apologize for that. Perhaps you are right, and it would be best if I kept my opinions to myself. T.J.'s opinions make a lot of sense to me and I suspect also to others reading this list. Many people who have in the past relied upon Debian Linux as a solid platform for doing productive work are now looking at various alternatives in the face of the systemd phenomenon, and some of these people are sure to be subscribing to the DNG mailing list in the hope of seeing some good news. I suppose FreeBSD is the obvious first destination for Debian refugees, and personally I am actively exploring that solution at the moment. But it would be very nice indeed if the Devuan project can be made to succeed, as Devuan would provide an attractive way of leveraging the ongoing vigorous development of the Linux kernel. I should remark that I am prepared to do more than wish the Devuan project well: in the longer term I am willing to assist actively in testing and coding if it turns out that I am capable of contributing positively. --Mike ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd
On Mon, Feb 02, 2015 at 04:32:06PM -0500, Jude Nelson wrote: > Hi Jaromil, > > Making vdev easy to use in sandboxed contexts (chroot, lxc, jails, etc.) is > definitely a design requirement! Looks useful. Might make system recovery easier. One thing I'd like to be able to do is run a dist-upgrade in a chroot. At present it's always awkward to figure out which devices and the like have to be there in the chroot and how to get them there. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Towards systemd-free packages
On Mon, 2 Feb 2015 20:40:30 -0500 Jude Nelson wrote: > Hey everyone, > > Is there a list somewhere that has the packages in Jessie that depend > on some part of systemd? I'd like to get the ball rolling on > compiling out systemd dependencies for Devuan packages, but I don't > want to duplicate anyone's efforts. Hi Jude, There's a guy named Slavko who, I think, had some sort of utility to find all that. He created this: http://lists-archives.com/debian-user/361-who-s-locking-down-the-code.html Slavko also made these: http://anfo.slavino.sk/libpam-systemd.png http://anfo.slavino.sk/libsystemd-daemon0.png http://anfo.slavino.sk/libsystemd-journal0.png http://anfo.slavino.sk/libsystemd-login0.png Talk to Slavko. He seems to have a pretty good handle on systemd dependencies in Debian. By the way, I found this info on Slavko by searching my old archives from the modular-debian mailing list, created in September 2014, in the middle of the Debian-User init wars. Obviously, the Dng list has replaced modular-debian, but I'd like to thank Joel Roth for creating the modular-debian list, because it gave us Debian-User refugees a community very early, and in doing so I think the modular-debian list helped solidify the community so we could take action a month or so later, when we joined up with #Devuan and Dng. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd
On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 08:29:40 + Michael Dec wrote: > On 2015-02-02 17:47, T.J. Duchene wrote: > > Funny thing. I hear a lot of complaining about systemd, and yes, i > > think some of it is justified, but consider this...Rather than > > joining > > the project and steering it in another direction, or creating > > patches to fix what you do not like, everyone is just standing about > > complaining. Now this is not to say that Devuan is sitting on its > > hands. No one here, minus FreeBSD seems to me at least to have a > > clear action plan. You cant avoid systemd forever, and at some > > point compatibility is going to have to be provided. > > > > Better now than later. I think FreeBSD and uselessd have the best > > approaches. > > > > Just for the case of devels advocate (yes deliberate pun) systemd > > can be compiled with an absolute minimum. > OpenRC works just fine and it has all the rings and bells you would > want from systemd: > - logs (lol, welcome to 1980?) > - cgroups management > - parallel service start > > Interestingly, cgroups can be disabled and this is why this init runs > on BSD, these just don't exist there. > It really doesn't hurt to have a familiar software stack across > different operating systems. Time wasted on retraining is time you > could've used to do actual work. Especially if there's literally no > benefit to said retraining. Point of information: OpenRC itself cannot respawn or manage daemons. No problem, have managed daemons managed by daemontools or daemontools-encore, either of which can easily be started by OpenRC. LOL, this kind of easy solution is what you get when your tools do one thing and do it well :-) SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
Hi, The reason why RedHat develops and enforces systemd is clear to me: they > have customers paying for a ready-made system that RedHat would maintain. > They want to increase their productivity by introducing tools which > automate things as much as possible, plus security-related features -- a > valid sales argument. It makes full sense; that's their busyness model. > I (my company) looks after a lot of servers, and we are *always* looking for ways to make things go better, faster, and stronger :) automation is a *huge* part of what we do, as is security. Systemd does not really offer us much that we don't already have, and the "price" we need to pay to take on systemd is not one we are comfortable with. Untested, unproven, and at the end of the day an overall framework architecture that we think sucks. Systemd offers a lot of interesting things for desktop users, which we are not. We are server monkeys, and don't really care about desktop bootimes. I *like* initscripts, but also like OpenRC and upstart (we are an Ubuntu shop). We use a massive collection of tools, as do most people on this list, on a daily basis. Saltstack is a major piece of our management "backbone" as are various flavors of hypervisors and containers. Python is the glue we use to keep it together, as are bash scripts, sed, awk, etc. etc. I have personally been an active Open Source user, advocate and contributor for a very long time. I have no problems, however, with using proprietary software if the need is there - we have a business to run, and we must be pragmatic. The point is that we will *always* strive to use the *best* tool for the job. I have no time to get sentimental or religious about these things. If a new tool comes around tomorrow that will deliver tangible, measurable benefits and improvements for our technology stack, I will not hesitate to throw out whatever we need to in order to take advantage of it, provided it is good for the business. Systemd doesn't meet any of our needs better over the existing technology stack we currently have, and has a lot of fundamental architectural and organisational weaknesses that make it unsuitable for us to deploy. I have no problem with people wanting to use systemd - if it works for you, than more power to you. I do have a very, very serious problem in having this technology shoved down my throat, with very few options. I do have a problem with the fact that our team now has to divert very precious and expensive resources to investigate BSD, and see what we are going to do to fill the technology gaps between what we have now, and what BSD lacks (OCFS2, for example). Personally, I have no emotional bone to pick in the whole Debian systemd debacle. However, when Shuttleworth made the announcement that "Ubuntu follows Debian, if they go systemd then so do we" the rug was pulled out from under us. I love the Linux kernel, for all its issues and imperfections. From all the "no systemd here" efforts and distro's, Devuan is the most promising. None of the others (slack, *too, and alpine) currently meet *our* needs, and we do not have the engineering capacity at the moment to get them to a point where we would be able to realistically get to point that is good enough for us to work from. I am hoping to see a Devuan release soon, so we can gauge the work and effort required to "ubuntufi" Devuan. If that is likewise too much work then we will have no choice but to bite the bullet and leave this whole clusterfuck far behind us, and go BSD. All this bullshit with systemd pushed us at least 6 months back in our planning and deployment, and cost us a lot of money. At least we will know for sure that it will a good while yet before the insanity spreads to BSD. And for that, I do not have a warm place in my heart for the guys at RedHat. If you think that this kind of radical, rapid change goes unnoticed in the enterprise, or that the enterprise doesn't mind such radical changes in such a short period of time, think again. Few of RedHat's (or Canonicals', for that matter) clients are impressed with how quickly, aggressively, and pervasively systemd was pushed down our throats. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
Hi, Jude Nelson posted an enormous rdepends list, of what packages would need to be changed for Devuan Jessie,but from my own experimentation I concluded that it wasn't so bad if we are willing to give up on a few other things: - Give up on GNOME for the moment - Accept that a few key packages may have to be kept somewhere *between* Wheezy and Jessie for the moment, for example cups Unfortunately I didn't accurately write down what I did myself.. so correct me if I talk nonsense! but IIRC, I figured out that: - if I accepted an older version of CUPS (1.5.3-5+deb7u4 from Wheezy before the dependency on libsystemd-daemon0) it would work, and also - there was some version of libudev0 or libudev1 (208-6??) which caused much less hair-tearing than later versions. From comparison of https://packages.debian.org/stable/admin/cups and https://packages.debian.org/testing/admin/cups : Jessie cups = version 1.7.5-10 currently but I downgraded it to 1.5.3-5+deb7u4, the Wheezy version. The new cups depends on cups-daemon which depends on libsystemd0 (did they combine libsystemd-daemon0 with the other ones into libsystemd0 or something?) Furthermore I think I downgraded libcolord, which was easy for me personally because I didn't know what it did or why it was installed anyway ;-) YMMV especially if you're a graphics designer, I suppose. Maybe we can make a Wiki page with these kind of middle-ware packages?? That would be something that many of us can participate in. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
On Tue, 03 Feb 2015, Godefridus Daalmans wrote: > Maybe we can make a Wiki page with these kind of middle-ware > packages?? That would be something that many of us can participate > in. I'm in touchwith Nextime who is working hard on the continuous integration and jenkins build pipeline after getting out of the flu. It looks like we are very close to open up this process and have packages uploaded to the devuan gitlab so that we can test the automatic build and refine the process. So perhaps even better than a wiki will be to have people upload packages into git.devuan.org and have them built and published on our package repository. From there we can all run experiments and contemplate the results. Its a matter of days now ciao -- Jaromil, Dyne.org Free Software Foundry (est. 2000) We are free to share code and we code to share freedom Web: https://j.dyne.org Contact: https://j.dyne.org/c.vcf GPG: 6113 D89C A825 C5CE DD02 C872 73B3 5DA5 4ACB 7D10 Confidential communications: https://keybase.io/jaromil ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
On Tue, Feb 03, 2015 at 04:14:10PM +0100, Godefridus Daalmans wrote: > Hi, > > Jude Nelson posted an enormous rdepends list, of what packages would need to > be changed for Devuan Jessie,but from my own experimentation I concluded > that it wasn't so bad if we are willing to give up on a few other things: > > - Give up on GNOME for the moment > > - Accept that a few key packages may have to be kept somewhere *between* > Wheezy and Jessie for the moment, for example cups > > > Unfortunately I didn't accurately write down what I did myself.. so correct > me if I talk nonsense! > > but IIRC, I figured out that: > > - if I accepted an older version of CUPS (1.5.3-5+deb7u4 from Wheezy before > the dependency on libsystemd-daemon0) it would work, and also > > - there was some version of libudev0 or libudev1 (208-6??) which caused much > less hair-tearing than later versions. > Yes, I held that package. I think it's the only reason that xorg* depends on systemd. > From comparison of https://packages.debian.org/stable/admin/cups and > https://packages.debian.org/testing/admin/cups : > > Jessie cups = version 1.7.5-10 currently but I downgraded it to > 1.5.3-5+deb7u4, the Wheezy version. > > The new cups depends on cups-daemon which depends on libsystemd0 (did they > combine libsystemd-daemon0 with the other ones into libsystemd0 or > something?) All the libsystemd-* packages got merged, because they'd multiplied beyond being manageable. cups can be rebuilt without much patching, I think-alpine has cups 2.x working nicely, and systemd does't even build here. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 16:14:10 +0100 Godefridus Daalmans wrote: > Hi, > > Jude Nelson posted an enormous rdepends list, of what packages would > need to be changed for Devuan Jessie,but from my own experimentation > I concluded that it wasn't so bad if we are willing to give up on a > few other things: > > - Give up on GNOME for the moment That makes a certain sense, given that Gnome is a component of systemd. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 16:14:10 +0100 Godefridus Daalmans wrote: > Hi, > > Jude Nelson posted an enormous rdepends list, of what packages would > need to be changed for Devuan Jessie,but from my own experimentation > I concluded that it wasn't so bad if we are willing to give up on a > few other things: > > - Give up on GNOME for the moment This brings up the point that we should start lobbying "upstreams" not to depend on systemd. And, of course, dropping Gnome gives us some credibility in that matter. Obviously, "upstreams" won't care what Devuan does, but if others start following in our footsteps, that's a different story. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
Am Dienstag, 3. Februar 2015 schrieb Steve Litt: > On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 16:14:10 +0100 > Godefridus Daalmans wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Jude Nelson posted an enormous rdepends list, of what packages would > > need to be changed for Devuan Jessie,but from my own experimentation > > I concluded that it wasn't so bad if we are willing to give up on a > > few other things: > > > > - Give up on GNOME for the moment > > This brings up the point that we should start lobbying "upstreams" not > to depend on systemd. And, of course, dropping Gnome gives us some > credibility in that matter. > > Obviously, "upstreams" won't care what Devuan does, but if others start > following in our footsteps, that's a different story. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > I think it was said before, but I throw TDE in the bag. Contrary to GNOME it is fast, configurable and consumes by "todays standards" minimal resources. Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. Mag. Dr. Nikolaus Klepp Einnehmerstraße 14 A-4810 Gmunden Tel.: +43 650 82 11 724 email: off...@klepp.biz dr.kl...@gmx.at ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
On Tue, 3 Feb 2015 20:15:50 +0100 Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > Am Dienstag, 3. Februar 2015 schrieb Steve Litt: > > On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 16:14:10 +0100 > > Godefridus Daalmans wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Jude Nelson posted an enormous rdepends list, of what packages > > > would need to be changed for Devuan Jessie,but from my own > > > experimentation I concluded that it wasn't so bad if we are > > > willing to give up on a few other things: > > > > > > - Give up on GNOME for the moment > > > > This brings up the point that we should start lobbying "upstreams" > > not to depend on systemd. And, of course, dropping Gnome gives us > > some credibility in that matter. > > > > Obviously, "upstreams" won't care what Devuan does, but if others > > start following in our footsteps, that's a different story. > > > > SteveT > I think it was said before, but I throw TDE in the bag. Contrary to > GNOME it is fast, configurable and consumes by "todays standards" > minimal resources. > > Nik Timing is everything. mr_chris on #golug at Freenode was just singing the praises of TDE an hour ago. He tells me TDE has no nepomuk, no akonadi, and performs relatively well. Personnally, I removed every KDE app and library from my computer many years ago to Keep from Krashing (tm), but perhaps a certain subset of KDE apps and libraries wouldn't crash and hang the computer if run from TDE. Nik, how reasonable would it be to use TDE without KDE apps? Would doing so still yield benefits over and above, let's say, Xfce? Does TDE have any systemd dependencies? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Towards systemd-free packages
Hi Steve, Thanks for the links; this is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. -Jude On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 9:14 AM, Steve Litt wrote: > On Mon, 2 Feb 2015 20:40:30 -0500 > Jude Nelson wrote: > > > Hey everyone, > > > > Is there a list somewhere that has the packages in Jessie that depend > > on some part of systemd? I'd like to get the ball rolling on > > compiling out systemd dependencies for Devuan packages, but I don't > > want to duplicate anyone's efforts. > > Hi Jude, > > There's a guy named Slavko who, I think, had some sort of utility to > find all that. He created this: > > > http://lists-archives.com/debian-user/361-who-s-locking-down-the-code.html > > Slavko also made these: > > http://anfo.slavino.sk/libpam-systemd.png > http://anfo.slavino.sk/libsystemd-daemon0.png > http://anfo.slavino.sk/libsystemd-journal0.png > http://anfo.slavino.sk/libsystemd-login0.png > > Talk to Slavko. He seems to have a pretty good handle on systemd > dependencies in Debian. > > By the way, I found this info on Slavko by searching my old archives > from the modular-debian mailing list, created in September 2014, in the > middle of the Debian-User init wars. Obviously, the Dng list has > replaced modular-debian, but I'd like to thank Joel Roth for creating > the modular-debian list, because it gave us Debian-User refugees a > community very early, and in doing so I think the modular-debian list > helped solidify the community so we could take action a month or so > later, when we joined up with #Devuan and Dng. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
Am Dienstag, 3. Februar 2015 schrieb Steve Litt: > On Tue, 3 Feb 2015 20:15:50 +0100 > Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > > > Am Dienstag, 3. Februar 2015 schrieb Steve Litt: > > > On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 16:14:10 +0100 > > > Godefridus Daalmans wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Jude Nelson posted an enormous rdepends list, of what packages > > > > would need to be changed for Devuan Jessie,but from my own > > > > experimentation I concluded that it wasn't so bad if we are > > > > willing to give up on a few other things: > > > > > > > > - Give up on GNOME for the moment > > > > > > This brings up the point that we should start lobbying "upstreams" > > > not to depend on systemd. And, of course, dropping Gnome gives us > > > some credibility in that matter. > > > > > > Obviously, "upstreams" won't care what Devuan does, but if others > > > start following in our footsteps, that's a different story. > > > > > > SteveT > > > > I think it was said before, but I throw TDE in the bag. Contrary to > > GNOME it is fast, configurable and consumes by "todays standards" > > minimal resources. > > > > Nik > > Timing is everything. mr_chris on #golug at Freenode was just singing > the praises of TDE an hour ago. He tells me TDE has no nepomuk, no > akonadi, and performs relatively well. > > Personnally, I removed every KDE app and library from my computer many > years ago to Keep from Krashing (tm), but perhaps a certain subset of > KDE apps and libraries wouldn't crash and hang the computer if run from > TDE. > > Nik, how reasonable would it be to use TDE without KDE apps? Would > doing so still yield benefits over and above, let's say, Xfce? Does TDE > have any systemd dependencies? > > Thanks, > > SteveT Hi Steve! When you remove all extra stuff from TDE then you end up with a sytem thats still superior to XFCE. I'll just hilight the things I like most (only the base system, not the extra applications): - one cental configuriation tool for all aspects of TDE. - very fine grained configuration - single mouse click works as one would expect. - window behaviour configurable from "gerneral" down to "single window class" or "title" - session manager works (well, firefox does not play nicely, but then, where does it?) - konqeror simply works (as filemanager, KHTML has not been replaced by webkit but it's WIP when I recall correctly) - kmail. fast, reliable, and uses maildir (one file per mail), a big plus when it comes to backups and doing neet stuff with mails. - has a desktop (downside: xsnow does not play nice). - acessability simply works. (Sticky keys, self releasing keys, ) - no nepomuck / zeitgeist. - all configs cleartext. I like it so much that I still try to get it working on FreeBSD - currently I'm running FVWM :-) Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. Mag. Dr. Nikolaus Klepp Einnehmerstraße 14 A-4810 Gmunden Tel.: +43 650 82 11 724 email: off...@klepp.biz dr.kl...@gmx.at ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
On Tue, 3 Feb 2015 22:27:43 +0100 Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > When you remove all extra stuff from TDE then you end up with a sytem > thats still superior to XFCE. Here on this Gentoo box I set up (moving away from systemd on Debian maybe 9 months ago), I was having trouble installing XFCE without bringing in stuff I didn't want. Gentoo has LXQT (the Qt port of LXDE, which is also a merge with Razor), which is what I've been running for 9 months. It is a reasonably nice environment. Not perfect, but certainly workable. Never heard of TDE, so I can't compare it to that. Gord ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
> Nik, how reasonable would it be to use TDE without KDE apps? Would > doing so still yield benefits over and above, let's say, Xfce? Does TDE > have any systemd dependencies? > > Thanks, > > SteveT > Oh, I forgot one thing: On TDE you can move windows from desktop to desktop using the pager, just like the FVWM pager. Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
> Never heard of TDE, so I can't compare it to that. TDE is "Trinity Desktop Environment" which in reality is just KDE 3, like MATE is Gnome 2. --Gravis On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 5:05 PM, Gordon Haverland wrote: > On Tue, 3 Feb 2015 22:27:43 +0100 > Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > >> When you remove all extra stuff from TDE then you end up with a sytem >> thats still superior to XFCE. > > Here on this Gentoo box I set up (moving away from systemd on Debian > maybe 9 months ago), I was having trouble installing XFCE without > bringing in stuff I didn't want. Gentoo has LXQT (the Qt port of > LXDE, which is also a merge with Razor), which is what I've been > running for 9 months. It is a reasonably nice environment. Not > perfect, but certainly workable. > > Never heard of TDE, so I can't compare it to that. > > Gord > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Distribution independent Installer
Take a look to http://calamares.io/ Could be interesting for the distro installer -- Bye: Javier Ortega Conde (Malkavian) Member of Go Club of Bilbao (GoBi)http://gobi.webnode.es Member of GLUB, Eghost, Itsas, Aske, Guardianes del Túmulo... Microsoft is to operating systems and security what McDonald's to gourmet food and healthy nutrition. (Javier Ortega Conde (Malkavian)) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd
On Mon, 2015-02-02 at 16:09 -0500, Anthony G. Basile wrote: > On 02/02/15 15:56, Vlad wrote: > > Well Poettering is actually getting paid for doing all this, the same > goes for a lot of other contributors, basically they have nothing > better to do and this is a nice excuse to get money. > > > > On February 2, 2015 8:51:18 PM EET, digitek wrote: > >> FTFA It sounds like systemd is evolving into a piece of software which > >> touches every single part of the operating system; and that's quite > >> concerning in itself without considering one team is maintaining it > >> all. > >> > > I've been lurking on this list for a while and resisted posting. I > maintain eudev. I have done so precisely for this reason --- because > systemd is encrouching on all other aspects of a traditional *nix > system. Mine is a rearguard effort and I'm only one developer. Help > moving forward and surviving the long run would be much appreciated. > Is eudev a full in-place replacement of udev, or are there differences? Do you have .deb packages already? If not, maybe I can try to help out here. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
( being on the two mailing lists I m cross posting on the TDE mailing list so they know devuan could be interested in supporting TDE . . . ) same here, TDE ( kde3 fork reacting to the unstable kde4 bloat ) : * have all the features I expect from a modern window manager * is very stable, even if you customize it changing many configuration options * have a very good and intuitive customization panel * is using much less resources than the more recent kde or gnome * have no plans on depending on systemd ever ( there are a few threads on the topic on the tde mailing list ) : http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::6629 "TDE will not intentionally introduce a hard dependency on systemd" I d also add that I often install linux to new users coming from the windows environment, the feedback from those users have always been very bad for kde4 and very good for kde3. On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: >> Nik, how reasonable would it be to use TDE without KDE apps? Would >> doing so still yield benefits over and above, let's say, Xfce? Does TDE >> have any systemd dependencies? >> >> Thanks, >> >> SteveT >> > > Oh, I forgot one thing: On TDE you can move windows from desktop to desktop > using the pager, just like the FVWM pager. > > Nik > > -- > Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing > with the NSA. > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
On Tue, 2015-02-03 at 17:11 -0500, Gravis wrote: > > Never heard of TDE, so I can't compare it to that. > > TDE is "Trinity Desktop Environment" which in reality is just KDE 3, > like MATE is Gnome 2. Last time I installed MATE in Debian it was not dependent on *systemd*. Maybe it is now, I haven't upgraded for some time. However, maybe they can be persuaded to remove that dependency if it is there. I've followed #debian-mate and #mate for a while in the past, and could ask again about the current state again. (the Cc: will probably not go through, I'm not subscribed) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
On Wed, Feb 04, 2015 at 01:19:26AM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > Last time I installed MATE in Debian it was not dependent on *systemd*. > Maybe it is now, I haven't upgraded for some time. In jessie, you need systemd (but not systemd-sysv) for things like shutdown, reboot, suspend or hibernate from the GUI, seeing battery levels, being able to mount USB/etc drives, and probably more. > However, maybe they can be persuaded to remove that dependency if it is > there. The dependency goes through the Utopia stack, maintained by some of most zealous systemd proponents, so that would require quite some work on the MATE side to fix this regression. Users and Devuan can simply rebuild stuff against ConsoleKit. For now. -- // If you believe in so-called "intellectual property", please immediately // cease using counterfeit alphabets. Instead, contact the nearest temple // of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all // your writing needs, for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory prices. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
Neo Futur, why don't the TDE people just submit their packages to Debian? --Gravis On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 6:58 PM, Neo Futur wrote: > ( being on the two mailing lists I m cross posting on the TDE mailing > list so they know devuan could be interested in supporting TDE . . . ) > > same here, TDE ( kde3 fork reacting to the unstable kde4 bloat ) : > > * have all the features I expect from a modern window manager > * is very stable, even if you customize it changing many configuration options > * have a very good and intuitive customization panel > * is using much less resources than the more recent kde or gnome > * have no plans on depending on systemd ever ( there are a few threads > on the topic on the tde mailing list ) : > http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::6629 > "TDE will not intentionally introduce a hard dependency on systemd" > > I d also add that I often install linux to new users coming from the > windows environment, the feedback from those users have always been > very bad for kde4 and very good for kde3. > > > On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: >>> Nik, how reasonable would it be to use TDE without KDE apps? Would >>> doing so still yield benefits over and above, let's say, Xfce? Does TDE >>> have any systemd dependencies? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> SteveT >>> >> >> Oh, I forgot one thing: On TDE you can move windows from desktop to desktop >> using the pager, just like the FVWM pager. >> >> Nik >> >> -- >> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing >> with the NSA. >> >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Some downgrades may be needed e.g. cups Re: Towards systemd-free packages
Regarding seeing battery levels from the GUI, I currently use fdpowermon. It polls the battery info from sysfs every few seconds via acpi. On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 7:34 PM, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Wed, Feb 04, 2015 at 01:19:26AM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > > Last time I installed MATE in Debian it was not dependent on *systemd*. > > Maybe it is now, I haven't upgraded for some time. > > In jessie, you need systemd (but not systemd-sysv) for things like > shutdown, > reboot, suspend or hibernate from the GUI, seeing battery levels, being > able > to mount USB/etc drives, and probably more. > > > However, maybe they can be persuaded to remove that dependency if it is > > there. > > The dependency goes through the Utopia stack, maintained by some of most > zealous systemd proponents, so that would require quite some work on the > MATE side to fix this regression. > > Users and Devuan can simply rebuild stuff against ConsoleKit. For now. > > -- > // If you believe in so-called "intellectual property", please immediately > // cease using counterfeit alphabets. Instead, contact the nearest temple > // of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all > // your writing needs, for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory prices. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] (A) Tone'bars got somthing to say (Blues) systemd fiasco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbhEa2GFuTM Please take a listen. This is how many of us feel put upon by this systemd bullshit fiasco. Linus why ain't you listening? (He thinks' systemd's just fine and doesn't get why not we all think that now) The song's (C) GNU GPL v2 of-course. How goes the fork? _ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Bastille-linux doesn't work with debian anymore. (Not that debian would care)
Bastille-linux doesn't work with debian anymore. It worked with my early version of debian wheezy. It won't run on my friend's debian 7.8 This suggests that even though debian 7 is a "stable" release, debian is mucking with it. (Did they update to a version of TK that "depreciates" things (the new people love to do this: always shifting sands with them)) Bastille-linux was (and is) a great script that helps you set up security on linux. Doing all those tasks you might forget (it can be found on sf.net or an older ubuntu repo:bastille_3.0.9-13_all.deb) There's no reason it shouldn't work anymore, it's a shell and TK script. Debian, ofcourse, nolonger packages it. Can't allow people to have easy security (also doesn't package grsecurity kernel, also messed with ssh code to give us insecurity for 2 years etc) Could Devuan perhaps package Bastille for itself. It is a very good script for setting things up. http://bastille-linux.sourceforge.net/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/bastille-linux/ It's a shame Debian has abandoned it. It is a shame Debian changes things in it's stable releases so that, say wheezy 7.2 can run it, but wheezy 7.8 can't bring up the TK interface of the script nor can it save a file using the curses interface! Yes so stable! _ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Contemplating Systemd, Some songs and ideas.
I put these together over the last few weeks (the middle one done with friends, the first and last are mine). I was thinking about how I hate systemd, how I hate the people running debian since the SSH fiasco (they really do not give a fuck about security, they do care a WHOLE lot about transgender and women's rights and involvement though!) I hate how the new people have been "depreciating" every library and piece of code anyone who came before them has written, and pushing incompatable "updates". I absolutely hate these wrecking ball people. Unsteady contemplation: http://youtu.be/qUoQdnQptc4 A thought experiment about what happens when you blast away the rock onwhich once you stood, and then go and build something new on shifting sands. (C) GNU GPL v2 My name is john: http://youtu.be/Q4CauD8UB0w A contemplation about what happens when, you being someone else, take on the cover of he whom you are not (like Systemd taking over Linux, hollowing it out, and we are to think this new Linux is Linux? no. Same word, different meaning) SequelTo Something: http://youtu.be/ase1TeL-uAM A journey down a river we have not yet much explored. Further down we go. FK SystemD. _ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
