Re: [Dng] Device management [WAS: system scriptinng language.]
Matthew Melton m...@mjmworks.co.uk Jude Nelson wrote >___ >Dng mailing list >Dng@lists.dyne.org >https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Jessie without systemd
Nice setup. Darker than my normal but it looks good. My installation of Trios , with OpenRC. Here is a shot of my initial layout, or at least, todays: https://db.tt/kqxtslIq All in all, a very nice piece of work. I was so looking forward to Jessie, until the systemd fiasco. Thanks for your efforts. I plan to add my preferred apps and use this install for a few weeks. And keep reading your forum for new developments. On the surface, it seems to be complete. saludos, Richard. On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 10:05 PM, Richard wrote: > Thanks. :) > I'm in. > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Dragan FOSS wrote: > >> Hello Richard, thanks for your interest in our project :) >> >> Registration is very easy and fast..only Registration Question is in >> Serbian (sorry for that..): >> Koji je glavni grad Republike Srbije/Which is the capital of the >> Republic of Serbia >> >> Correct answer is : Beograd >> >> Other fields on registrattion form are either self-explanatory or filled >> with default answers (TRIOS/Cinnamon for OS/DE) >> >> Welcome to our forum :) >> *Sent:* Saturday, December 27, 2014 at 1:12 AM >> *From:* Richard >> *To:* "Dragan FOSS" >> *Cc:* dng@lists.dyne.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Dng] Jessie without systemd >> Unable to register since I don't read Serbian? >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > MX-14, Mint-LTS, PCLOS, Gobo > -- MX-14, Mint-LTS, PCLOS, Gobo ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Gnome
There hasn't been much technical chatter on irc lately. dimkr was trying to extract systemd from Gnome with mixed results. I understand that Devuan wants to give Debianites who use Gnome an option to move smoothly to a systemd-free future (and stick it to Gnome in the process). But does that have to be a top priority? Why not get Devuan up and running with DEs/WMs that are not so entangled with systemd then tackle Gnome once the basic structure is in place? Working on Gnome first seems like putting the cart before the horse and my guess is that it is slowing things down. When will 32 bit install isos be available. Any ETA? That question for Dragan FOSS also. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What to do with udev? Some ideas...
You can't just switch to vdev, because many packages depend on libudev. Only udev and eudev provide it. eudev is the only realistic option right now, because it's a drop-in replacement. Moreover, it's the only udev alternative with feature-parity. By the way, I'm not sure whether vdev is ready for the prime time. On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 22:26:49 -0500 "Martinx - ジェームズ" wrote: > Guys, > > I'm wondering here about what to do with `udev`, which is `systemd` in > fact... > > What about this: > > > 1- Rename current `udev` package to `systemd-udev`; > > 2- Add `vdev`; > > 3- Add `eudev`; > > 4- Add `mdev`; > > 4- Create a new Metapackage called `udev`, that will Depends on `eudev | > vdev | mdev | systemd-udev`. > > > This will be very similar to the new `init` Metapackage on Jessie, that > Depends on `systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core | upstart`. > > What do you guys think? > > Also, I would like to know more about the quality of `eudev` and if it > worth keeping it, since `systemd` developers will remove its "netlink" > support (am I right)? Then, `systemd-udev` will depends on `systemd` as > PID1 in the future (through KDBUS, if I'm not wrong), making it very hard > to keep `eudev` up to date. Source: > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html > > I would like to evaluate `vdev` soon as possible. > > Best! > Thiago -- Dima Krasner pgpjBbYrxNCjf.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What to do with udev? Some ideas...
You can't just switch to vdev, because many packages depend on libudev. Only udev and eudev provide it. eudev is the only realistic option right now, because it's a drop-in replacement. Moreover, it's the only udev alternative with feature-parity. By the way, I'm not sure whether vdev is ready for the prime time. On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 22:26:49 -0500 "Martinx - ジェームズ" wrote: > Guys, > > I'm wondering here about what to do with `udev`, which is `systemd` in > fact... > > What about this: > > > 1- Rename current `udev` package to `systemd-udev`; > > 2- Add `vdev`; > > 3- Add `eudev`; > > 4- Add `mdev`; > > 4- Create a new Metapackage called `udev`, that will Depends on `eudev | > vdev | mdev | systemd-udev`. > > > This will be very similar to the new `init` Metapackage on Jessie, that > Depends on `systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core | upstart`. > > What do you guys think? > > Also, I would like to know more about the quality of `eudev` and if it > worth keeping it, since `systemd` developers will remove its "netlink" > support (am I right)? Then, `systemd-udev` will depends on `systemd` as > PID1 in the future (through KDBUS, if I'm not wrong), making it very hard > to keep `eudev` up to date. Source: > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html > > I would like to evaluate `vdev` soon as possible. > > Best! > Thiago -- Dima Krasner pgpei1SVA_FGP.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
Am 28.12.2014 20:34, schrieb Go Linux: I understand that Devuan wants to give Debianites who use Gnome an option to move smoothly to a systemd-free future (and stick it to Gnome in the process). But does that have to be a top priority? Why not get Devuan up and running with DEs/WMs that are not so entangled with systemd then tackle Gnome once the basic structure is in place? This depends on the users. I suspect that Devuan attracts more server admins than desktop users. For server admins it would be fine to first get the base system going, and care about GUI later. However maybe making Gnome work will be easier when certain requirements have been taken into account in the design the base system. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 21:43:06 +0100 Klaus Hartnegg wrote: > > I understand that Devuan wants to give Debianites who use Gnome an > > option to move smoothly to a systemd-free future (and stick it to > > Gnome in the process). But does that have to be a top priority? Why > > not get Devuan up and running with DEs/WMs that are not so entangled > > with systemd then tackle Gnome once the basic structure is in place? > This depends on the users. I suspect that Devuan attracts more server > admins than desktop users. For server admins it would be fine to first > get the base system going, and care about GUI later. However maybe > making Gnome work will be easier when certain requirements have been > taken into account in the design the base system. OTOH desktop users that will be attracted to Devuan will also be in majority the same who also already renounced Gnome and Kde, their pomp and their work, not to mention their bloat. Cheers, Ron. -- The trouble with some women is that they get all excited about nothing, and then marry him. -- Cher -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
On Sun, 12/28/14, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Gnome To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, December 28, 2014, 2:47 PM On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 21:43:06 +0100 Klaus Hartnegg wrote: [snip] > OTOH desktop users that will be attracted to Devuan will also be in majority > the same who also already renounced > > Gnome and Kde, their pomp and their > work, not to mention their bloat. > Cheers, > Ron. Exactly. Just been discussing this on #devuan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
I'm totally against the concept of a Debian fork with init freedom but without DE freedom. IMHO, if we're *technically* able to deliever GNOME, we definitely should do that, even if the R&D costs are high. We should disinfect as many packages as possible, even if that means we provide a slightly crippled experience in Jessie. In the future (Jessie++), I think we should develop systemd alternatives that allow us to take the upper hand and contain this infection going forward. On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 17:47:40 -0300 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 21:43:06 +0100 > Klaus Hartnegg wrote: > > > > I understand that Devuan wants to give Debianites who use Gnome an > > > option to move smoothly to a systemd-free future (and stick it to > > > Gnome in the process). But does that have to be a top priority? Why > > > not get Devuan up and running with DEs/WMs that are not so entangled > > > with systemd then tackle Gnome once the basic structure is in place? > > > This depends on the users. I suspect that Devuan attracts more server > > admins than desktop users. For server admins it would be fine to first > > get the base system going, and care about GUI later. However maybe > > making Gnome work will be easier when certain requirements have been > > taken into account in the design the base system. > > OTOH desktop users that will be attracted to Devuan will also be in majority > the same who also already renounced Gnome and Kde, their pomp and their work, > not to mention their bloat. > > Cheers, > > Ron. > -- > The trouble with some women > is that they get all excited about nothing, > and then marry him. > -- Cher > >-- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Dima Krasner, dimakrasner.com pgpT2evlolwxv.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
Am 28.12.2014 21:47, schrieb Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI: OTOH desktop users that will be attracted to Devuan will also be in majority the same who also already renounced Gnome and Kde. Very likely yes. But still the largest number of all is probably server admins. Linux is mostly a server OS anyway, and desktop users probably care less about the init system than server admins do. Am 28.12.2014 22:02, schrieb Dima Krasner: IMHO, if we're *technically* able to deliever GNOME, we definitely should do that YES! The suggestion of the OP was not to drop Gnome, but to avoid a delay by "get Devuan up and running with DEs/WMs that are not so entangled with systemd, then tackle Gnome once the basic structure is in place". Does anybody have an idea how many server admins, and how many desktop users are interested in Devuan? Klaus ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
On Sun, 28 Dec 2014, Klaus Hartnegg wrote: > Am 28.12.2014 21:47, schrieb Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI: > >OTOH desktop users that will be attracted to Devuan will also be in > >majority the same who also already renounced Gnome and Kde. > > Very likely yes. But still the largest number of all is probably > server admins. Yes. Easy to evince from all responses we received on VUA email address. Sysadmins are definitely our usecase and we plan to provide professional users of Debian in this sense. Yet we don't exclude the needs of desktop environment - and in general we will be investing in R&D also to set a mark for other distros who are not sharing revenues with upstream. Let me remind you that DE does not mean just casual consumer grade use of a desktop, but also professional use, as in case of multimedia production. There are many issues that Devuan can also fix there, starting from the FFMpeg removal from Debian... > Linux is mostly a server OS anyway, and desktop users probably care > less about the init system than server admins do. > > Am 28.12.2014 22:02, schrieb Dima Krasner: > >IMHO, if we're *technically* able to deliever GNOME, we definitely > >should do that > > YES! > > The suggestion of the OP was not to drop Gnome, but to avoid a delay > by "get Devuan up and running with DEs/WMs that are not so entangled > with systemd, then tackle Gnome once the basic structure is in place". What is quoted above is defintely aligned with the current focus for Devuan developers. > Does anybody have an idea how many server admins, and how many desktop > users are interested in Devuan? a good start is this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems then again, from what I could read in the huge amount of feedback we had: the vast majority of people caring about this project, including the core developers who are themselves running server farms: we are mostly server admins users, often relying on Debian in our professional life. I still recommend using GNU/Linux on desktops, especially for people that have a mission-critical reliance on their desktop use like journalists or activists. But we must also acknowledge there are plenty of Debian developers that themselves are using Apple/OSX as their own desktop. So to say, DE is not exactly a situation we want to compete for, since we have even lost many people among our own tribes, if you get my point straight. Look, I've been in the DE and liveCD DE shuffle of GNU/Linux in the past 15 years myself - as much as many readers here - and obviously today I'm quite opinionated about it. Let me just say that, with all the work done in between - including the Ubuntu fork - we are still a minority of users of GNU/Linux on desktop. There is no point on working hard to improve that situation now with Devuan, since our priorities and worries are different and mostly related to the systemd avalanche, which is a deeper issue affecting many different interests. Being pragmatic, as of today I'd be most interested in knowing what the developer community of kFreeBSD or Hurd is planning to do: if they see Devuan as a reliable new base to continue their efforts, or if not then what we can improve in our plans so that they can perceive us as an opportunity to survive. ciao -- Jaromil, Dyne.org Free Software Foundry (est. 2000) We are free to share code and we code to share freedom Web: https://j.dyne.org Contact: https://j.dyne.org/c.vcf GPG: 6113 D89C A825 C5CE DD02 C872 73B3 5DA5 4ACB 7D10 Confidential communications: https://keybase.io/jaromil signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
Am 28.12.2014 22:57 schrieb Klaus Hartnegg: OTOH desktop users that will be attracted to Devuan will also be in majority the same who also already renounced Gnome and Kde. Very likely yes. But still the largest number of all is probably server admins. Linux is mostly a server OS anyway, and desktop users probably care less about the init system than server admins do. I'm mostly a CLI & desktop user and administrator of a few machines. I do care a lot about the init system. According to what I could read on forums at LinuxQuestions.org, there are many desktop users who do, especially when one particular init system is trying to screw the whole distributions ecosystem. I was a loyal Debian (stable) user for several years before switching to Slackware two years ago, and I still can't believe to what they did to such a venerable and rocky project. Again, not only server admins do care about their init system. Does anybody have an idea how many server admins, and how many desktop users are interested in Devuan? What about doing a poll, say, at LinuxQuestions.org? I guess there are many Debian users and admins who are not happy at all with the new state of affairs. I guess they might welcome a Debian fork, i.e. a step backward to sanity. That said, my hat's off to you, Devuan guys (and gals, if any). Best wishes, Philip ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
On Sun, 12/28/14, Jaromil wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Gnome To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, December 28, 2014, 5:49 PM [snip] > > Let me remind you that DE does not mean just casual consumer grade use > of a desktop, but also professional use, as in case of multimedia > production. There are many issues that Devuan can also fix there, > starting from the FFMpeg removal from Debian... > I am a desktop user with several stand alone boxes. I once set up an nfs but really had no need for it so didn't maintain. I do all my web development (which isn't much these days) with xampp. I do a lot of multimedia, not as a profession but as a serious hobby. As long as alsa (no PA needed here), audacity, avidemux, dvdstyler, vlc etc. work, I'll be happy. Note that dvdstyler was available in squeeze but not in wheezy. Thankfully Steve Pusser over at MEPIS built a compatible .deb - it's in their community repos. I'm hoping he might do the same for Devuan if needed. I'm guessing that mplayer, totem etc. are a no-go because of systemd deps? How about a server/desktop poll on the without-systemd wiki? golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
> OTOH desktop users that will be attracted to Devuan will also be in majority the same who also already renounced Gnome and Kde, their pomp and their work, not to mention their bloat. This. > IMHO, if we're *technically* able to deliever GNOME, we definitely should do that. Disagree. They will not want to collaborate with any community, that don't share their opinion. So, what we have from their side (in latest five years): * a lot of forks: Mate (gnome2), cinnamon (gnome3), unity (pre-gnome3) (only alive included, but i remember at least "Consort" also) They did not appear out of nowhere, but because of disagreement with the vector of development of the project. * "simplified" interface and settings (read as "dumb-aware"). http://blogs.gnome.org/otte/2012/07/27/staring-into-the-abyss/ https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/UkoAaLDpF4i * gtk3 -- slower and incopatible with itself in minor versions. http://blogs.gnome.org/mortenw/2014/06/23/how-does-one-create-a-gtk-application/ http://redmine.audacious-media-player.org/boards/1/topics/1135 http://make-linux.org/misc/2013/09/gtk3-omg/ (in russian) As a result, significant number of projects decided: ...Qt migration. http://blog.lxde.org/?p=966 http://blog.lxde.org/?p=1013 Unity8 ... or gtk2 downgrade http://redmine.audacious-media-player.org/boards/1/topics/1269 https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-users/2011-May/007629.html ...or using own toolkit http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTYyNzQ (Chrome/Chromium, was - gtk2) ... or delaying migration to gtk3 Firefox (three years, still pending: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627699) Xfce4 (two years, no progress, http://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.12/roadmap/gtk3) LibreOffice * persistent rumors about the work, in fact, only with systemd http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GNOME/3.8-upgrade-guide https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-May/msg00427.html * community interaction (briefly can be described as "f*ck all other world") http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2009-December/msg00055.html (Proposal about leaving GNU) http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/439 (Tribalism is the enemy within) (not mentioned gnome, but written exactly after unity fork) * "strange" ideas - GnomeOS (somebody have ever seen devices with it?) - own package manager (http://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2013/02/01/developer-hackfest-status/) * a lot of incomplete, useless, or abandoned software Ephiphany, Empathy, Evolution, Emperor, gnome-commander, gnome office Summarizing all above (IMHO): * keep gtk3 support at minimal required level and provide alternatives, according this order: qt, gtk2, wxwidgets, tk. (hey enlightment, are you alive?) * keep GNOME and all it's related subprojects away. Don't waste your time for it. If user wants gnome-shell like interface - then adopt Unity. 29.12.2014 06:47, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI пишет: > On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 21:43:06 +0100 > Klaus Hartnegg wrote: > >>> I understand that Devuan wants to give Debianites who use Gnome an >>> option to move smoothly to a systemd-free future (and stick it to >>> Gnome in the process). But does that have to be a top priority? Why >>> not get Devuan up and running with DEs/WMs that are not so entangled >>> with systemd then tackle Gnome once the basic structure is in place? > >> This depends on the users. I suspect that Devuan attracts more server >> admins than desktop users. For server admins it would be fine to first >> get the base system going, and care about GUI later. However maybe >> making Gnome work will be easier when certain requirements have been >> taken into account in the design the base system. > > OTOH desktop users that will be attracted to Devuan will also be in majority > the same who also already renounced Gnome and Kde, their pomp and their work, > not to mention their bloat. > > Cheers, > > Ron. > -- -- Alex signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What to do with udev? Some ideas...
I see vdev as more of a medium/long-term solution. I'd create a libudev-compat library that implemented the udev API, but I'd structure vdev to expose the same information via the filesystem (so libudev-compat would just perform the requisite filesystem queries for legacy applications). Jude On Dec 28, 2014 2:56 PM, "Dima Krasner" wrote: > You can't just switch to vdev, because many packages depend on libudev. > Only udev and eudev provide it. > > eudev is the only realistic option right now, because it's a drop-in > replacement. Moreover, it's the only udev alternative with feature-parity. > > By the way, I'm not sure whether vdev is ready for the prime time. > > On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 22:26:49 -0500 > "Martinx - ジェームズ" wrote: > > > Guys, > > > > I'm wondering here about what to do with `udev`, which is `systemd` in > > fact... > > > > What about this: > > > > > > 1- Rename current `udev` package to `systemd-udev`; > > > > 2- Add `vdev`; > > > > 3- Add `eudev`; > > > > 4- Add `mdev`; > > > > 4- Create a new Metapackage called `udev`, that will Depends on `eudev | > > vdev | mdev | systemd-udev`. > > > > > > This will be very similar to the new `init` Metapackage on Jessie, that > > Depends on `systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core | upstart`. > > > > What do you guys think? > > > > Also, I would like to know more about the quality of `eudev` and if it > > worth keeping it, since `systemd` developers will remove its "netlink" > > support (am I right)? Then, `systemd-udev` will depends on `systemd` as > > PID1 in the future (through KDBUS, if I'm not wrong), making it very hard > > to keep `eudev` up to date. Source: > > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html > > > > I would like to evaluate `vdev` soon as possible. > > > > Best! > > Thiago > > > -- > Dima Krasner > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
I'm an end user, mainly using Mint LMDE. I've been testing Jessie and was disappointed to find the numerous bugs in systemd. Also the way so many apps were dependent on Gnome and vice versa. I would favour "get Devuan up and running with DEs/WMs" and offer optional desktops later (preferably Cinnamon). Good luck and thanks for your efforts. Michael Davies On 29/12/14 10:49, Jaromil wrote: On Sun, 28 Dec 2014, Klaus Hartnegg wrote: Am 28.12.2014 21:47, schrieb Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI: OTOH desktop users that will be attracted to Devuan will also be in majority the same who also already renounced Gnome and Kde. Very likely yes. But still the largest number of all is probably server admins. Yes. Easy to evince from all responses we received on VUA email address. Sysadmins are definitely our usecase and we plan to provide professional users of Debian in this sense. Yet we don't exclude the needs of desktop environment - and in general we will be investing in R&D also to set a mark for other distros who are not sharing revenues with upstream. Let me remind you that DE does not mean just casual consumer grade use of a desktop, but also professional use, as in case of multimedia production. There are many issues that Devuan can also fix there, starting from the FFMpeg removal from Debian... Linux is mostly a server OS anyway, and desktop users probably care less about the init system than server admins do. Am 28.12.2014 22:02, schrieb Dima Krasner: IMHO, if we're *technically* able to deliever GNOME, we definitely should do that YES! The suggestion of the OP was not to drop Gnome, but to avoid a delay by "get Devuan up and running with DEs/WMs that are not so entangled with systemd, then tackle Gnome once the basic structure is in place". What is quoted above is defintely aligned with the current focus for Devuan developers. Does anybody have an idea how many server admins, and how many desktop users are interested in Devuan? a good start is this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems then again, from what I could read in the huge amount of feedback we had: the vast majority of people caring about this project, including the core developers who are themselves running server farms: we are mostly server admins users, often relying on Debian in our professional life. I still recommend using GNU/Linux on desktops, especially for people that have a mission-critical reliance on their desktop use like journalists or activists. But we must also acknowledge there are plenty of Debian developers that themselves are using Apple/OSX as their own desktop. So to say, DE is not exactly a situation we want to compete for, since we have even lost many people among our own tribes, if you get my point straight. Look, I've been in the DE and liveCD DE shuffle of GNU/Linux in the past 15 years myself - as much as many readers here - and obviously today I'm quite opinionated about it. Let me just say that, with all the work done in between - including the Ubuntu fork - we are still a minority of users of GNU/Linux on desktop. There is no point on working hard to improve that situation now with Devuan, since our priorities and worries are different and mostly related to the systemd avalanche, which is a deeper issue affecting many different interests. Being pragmatic, as of today I'd be most interested in knowing what the developer community of kFreeBSD or Hurd is planning to do: if they see Devuan as a reliable new base to continue their efforts, or if not then what we can improve in our plans so that they can perceive us as an opportunity to survive. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Cheers, Mike ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
I think this whole CLI - GUI thing causes a lot more polarization than it should. There are I'm sure a lot of people like myself who use the linux desktop day to day, have no problem dealing with the command line or administering a few boxes. A lot of desktop users are long term geeks, nerds and computer weirdos who don't fit into the Gnome/Redhat "Future of the Desktop" mold. Any day now Gnome/Redhat/systemd imagine they are going to dominate the whole Linux Desktop. The consumer interface pie has largely been eaten, when chance for the "Year of the Linux Desktop" happened everybody was too busy laughing at Microsoft and watching mobiles. The GNU/Linux desktop end of things is a very tiny piece of the whole world computer pie, Internet and otherwise. It is also a fractional piece of the dedicated Linux boxes out there. I think it is important that when logic takes back over and the train gets aligned back on the tracks that we don't alienate entirely the red hatted, gnome desktopped, minority in their systemd dream world. I think it is crucial that the parallel world with its controlledconfusiond can exist as both an example and as a mental sandbox for those so inclined. Now THAT is the beauty of Linux. Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Device management [WAS: system scriptinng language.]
Hi Enrico, ACLs act as whitelists that additionally let vdev equivocate about device nodes to different processes, based on the user, group, process information (PID, inode, binary path, SHA256), and requested device file. Let's work through a few examples. Consider the following ACL, which hides both the random and urandom device nodes from user 'jude': [vdev-acl] uid=jude paths=.*random setmode= Then, if I run "su jude -c ls /dev", both /dev/random and /dev/urandom will be missing from the output. Here's a more practical example that hides /dev/input/* and /dev/dri/* from every program except the X server (installed to /usr/bin/X): [vdev-acl] bin=/usr/bin/X paths=input/.*|dri/.* setmode=0666 Now, suppose I had a program called "session-ps", which took a username as an argument and printed a newline-separated list of PIDs for the processes belonging to all of that user's login sessions. For example: $ session-ps jude 28143 30888 32179 Suppose you have a multi-seat environment, and we want to forbid jude from accessing the device nodes under /dev/usb/001 since they correspond to a USB hub in a different seat. You can create an ACL to enforce this, such as this: [vdev-acl] pidlist=/usr/bin/session-ps jude paths=/dev/usb/001/.* setmode= Then, if user jude runs "ls /dev/usb/001", he will see an empty directory. You can also define ACLs to present device nodes to different processes as having different owners and permission bits, depending on who's asking. For example, suppose you wanted all storage media to be writable to the fsck program, but you wanted them to appear to fsck to be owned by the 'staff' group. You could have an ACL that does this: [vdev-acl] bin=/sbin/fsck paths=/dev/s[d|r]*.* setmode=0666 setgid=staff Intuitively, the way ACLs work is as follows: 1. A request for inode data (stat, access, or readdir) comes in via FUSE. vdev sees the requesting process's UID, GID, and PID 2. vdev matches the process information, path, and inode information against its list of ACLs (looking up extra information about the process if need be) 3a. If an ACL matches, vdev alters the stat buffer for the inode accordingly and replies it to the requesting process via FUSE. 3b. If no ACL matches, vdev fails the request with ENOENT (or doesn't reply with the inode information at all). With ACLs, you can match a request on the following keys: * uid: username or user ID to match against the requesting process * gid: group name or ID to match against the requesting process * bin: path to the requesting process's binary to match against the requesting process * pidlist: a program to invoke as a subprocess that prints the list of PIDs to match against the requesting process's PID * sha256: the SHA256 hash of the requesting process's binary * inode: the filesystem inode number of the binary of the requesting process's binary * paths: a POSIX regular expression to match the request's path Before replying an inode's stat buffer, you can have the ACL perform the following alterations on it first: * setuid: set the username or user ID in the stat buffer * setgid: set the group or group ID in the stat buffer * setmode: set the mode in the stat buffer You can also have vdev take actions after it creates or removes a device node, but for your purposes I think that's the subject for a different email. Hope this helps, -Jude On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 8:50 AM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult < enrico.weig...@gr13.net> wrote: > On 26.12.2014 10:01, Jude Nelson wrote: > > > We shouldn't have to go this far for device access control. If you > > have a script or program that can print a session's PIDs to stdout, > > you can define vdev ACL rules that will cause vdev to use this > > program to filter device nodes on a per-session basis. > > My idea was running each session in an own (partial) container, > which has its own /dev instance, and always use the same filenames > for the devices assigned to that session, whichever that might be > in the actual case. So, for example, /dev/audio would be the audio > device for *this* session. So, we dont need per-session application > configuration for such stuff. (Just have a look on how Plan9 > handles that) > > Could you explain, how vdev ACLs exactly work ? > > Maybe just let's play through certain scenarios. > > >> Yes, triggering a config reload is the first necessary step. > >> But I can also imagine an 9P-based interface (synthentic filesystem, > >> just like /proc or /sys) for directly manipulating several settings. > >> Not sure, whether that's really necessary, but we IMHO should keep that > >> in mind. > > > > Ah, I see what you mean. Since vdev is already implemented as a > > filesystem, I'll just have it expose its configuration state as a set of > > read/write files under a well-known directory. > > Yeah, that seem the right approach. > OTOH, we should have an option to mount that separately, so containers > can be setup in a way that v
