Re: Problem with module VCL (libXinerama missing)

[Herbert Dürr]

On 2013/03/25 8:30 PM, Alan Eduardo Puc Pech wrote:

Hello team, I'm Alan, Now I have a problem about building AOO with the
module VCL.

The error this is:
[...]
/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lXinerama


Please make sure that you have a package libxinerama-dev (or similar, 
depending on the distribution you are using).



When you have fixed the errors in that module you can resume the build by
running:

 build --all:vcl

I would like to know what this error is? because I went to this directory:
/home/alan/aoo/main/solver/400/
unxlngi6.pro/workdir/LinkTarget/Library/libvclplug_gen.so and I did not
find this file: libvclplug_gen.so. I need your help.


The file libvclplug_gen.so would be the result library. It isn't build 
if one of its dependencies (in this case libXinerama) is missing.


Herbert

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Re: Problems with Accessibility in Open Office

[Steve Yin]

Hi Jennifer,

I am working on the IAccessible2 migration for AOO. If possible, you can
download and evaluate the Windows version Symphony's accessibility firstly.
The download link:
http://www-03.ibm.com/software/lotus/symphony/home.nsf/home. Thanks.


On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 2:05 AM, Doitblind Jennifer McKinley <
j...@doitblind.com> wrote:

>   Good Morning,
>
> Thank you for including us on this list.
>
> John and I started Do It Blind because of the lack of accessibility for
> blind and visually impaired people for the majority of programs.  Although
> many programs say they are accessible, we have found they are minimally
> accessible and do not make things very easy or friendly for blind users.
> John is 100% blind and I am fully sighted.  We are a 2 person team taking
> on the world of accessibility.
> When we launched doitblind.com, we immediately started receiving requests
> to script many different programs.  We script programs that are most
> commonly requested and able to be scripted for blind accessibility.  When
> you visit doitblind.com, you will see where you are able to download the
> different scripts.  We currently charge a one time minimal fee for the
> different programs.
> We have had requests to make Open Office blind accessible and decided to
> look into it.  What we would like to do is write the scripts to make Open
> Office accessible.  We would then put the scripts on our website and allow
> people to purchase the scripts which would make Open Office more accessible
> than it currently is.
> As far as programing languages are concerned, we do JAWS scripting.  As
> far as 508 compliance goes, we can aid programmers in making screen readers
> natively supported.  If there is currently someone working on
> accessibility, we would love to be in touch with them.  Thank you!  We hope
> everyone has a wonderful afternoon!
>
> Jennifer McKinley
> Co-Founder, Do It Blind, LLC
> j...@doitblind.com
> doitblind.com
> 505-382-2641
>
>  *From:* Steve Yin 
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 24, 2013 11:30 PM
> *To:* dev@openoffice.apache.org ; orc...@apache.org
> *Cc:* Waldorf PC  ; j...@doitblind.com
> *Subject:* Re: Problems with Accessibility in Open Office
>
>  Hi Reina,
>
> Did you install the Symphony successfully? If not, please try to remove
> the Symphony work space firstly. The path of it is like this: C:\Documents
> and Settings\username\IBM\Lotus\Symphony. Thanks.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 1:00 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>
>> Hello Reina,
>>
>> I trust you are well.
>>
>> It would be useful to have the rplauncher.og that is left when your
>> install of Symphony fails to open.
>>
>> Another person has expressed interest in accessibility for blind users.
>> I have included Jennifer on this note. I don't know how much the work of
>> "Do It Blind" is tied to 508 Compliance.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> - Dennis
>>
>> > My name is Jennifer McKinley.  I am the co-founder of Do It Blind.  My
>> > business partner, John Martyn, and I would like to work with Open
>> Office to
>> > make it blind accessible.  We have already developed scripts for other
>> very
>> > popular programs like iTunes, Rhapsody, and Spotify.  Please visit
>> > doitblind.com for more information on them.  Who can we speak with in
>> > regards to making Open Office blind accessible?
>> > Please email me or call me.  We appreciate your time.
>> >
>> > Thank you!
>> >
>> > Jennifer McKinley
>> > Co-Founder, Do It Blind, LLC
>> > doitblind.com
>> > 505-382-2641
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org]
>> Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 13:09
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Cc: 'Waldorf PC'
>> Subject: RE: Problems with Accessibility in Open Office
>>
>> A. I was able to install Symphony 3.0.1 and the Fix Pack 2.  I also
>> have obtained the rcplauncher.log, which is rather interesting.
>>
>> B. When you are able to get Symphony operating, there is a feature
>> that will be interesting to understand the accessibility of.  There is
>> a sidebar on the right of the Symphony window that includes a variety
>> of dialogs and a way to select among them.  This is also a feature that
>> is being worked up for Apache OpenOffice 4.x.
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> Steve Yin
>



-- 
Best Regards,

Steve Yin

Re: w7snap build error

[Ariel Constenla-Haile]

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:08:38PM +0100, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:
> Error: "Missplaced close tag:  in file
> 
>  E:\slave14\aoo-w7snap\build\main\officecfg\registry\data\org\openoffice\Office\UI\Sidebar.xcu"
> in line 640: "" dmake:  Error code 13,
> while making
> 
>  '../../../../../../wntmsci12.pro/misc/merge/org/openoffice/Office/UI/Sidebar.xcu'
> dmake:
> 
>  '../../../../../../wntmsci12.pro/misc/merge/org/openoffice/Office/UI/Sidebar.xcu'
> removed.
> 
> >>>It's not a missing tag, it's a stupid code that requires the
> >>>beginning tag to be in the same line, at least after
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >It's simply putting the next line in the same line:
> >
> > >
> >Don't ask me why, I didn't look at that code (but obviously sounds
> >like a bug).
> >
> >
> 
> I have committed the suggested patch from Ariel.  Herbert was so kind
> to trigger the buildbot.

It seems this doesn't fix anything:
http://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/buildlogs/winsnap/main/officecfg/wntmsci12.pro/misc/logs/registry.data.org.openoffice.Office.UI.txt

Really strange, this *did* fix that build breaker at that time, when
I tried to build on CentOS for Mechtilde (I couldn't finish because sw
was broken, too).


Regards
-- 
Ariel Constenla-Haile
La Plata, Argentina


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Re: w7snap build error

[Herbert Dürr]

On 2013/03/26 8:23 AM, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote:

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:08:38PM +0100, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:

I have committed the suggested patch from Ariel.  Herbert was so kind
to trigger the buildbot.


It seems this doesn't fix anything:
http://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/buildlogs/winsnap/main/officecfg/wntmsci12.pro/misc/logs/registry.data.org.openoffice.Office.UI.txt


Please note that this is an old log as build #41 on aoo-w7snap didn't 
even make it to the "upload" step, so the old logs were never 
overwritten. Now why the buildbot stopped and timed out after 23h is a 
mystery to me too. Someone with direct access into that machine should 
have a look at the machines log files.


Herbert

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Re: [CODE][PROPOSAL]: AOO 4.0 getting rid of the 3 layer office, part 1

[Jürgen Schmidt]

On 3/25/13 5:22 PM, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 12:58:17PM -0300, Ariel Constenla-Haile
> wrote:
>>> I gave a new built trunk version a try on my MacBook and the
>>> presenter screen doesn't work. AOO 3.4.1 worked.
>> 
>> It works on Windows and Linux, where I could test. Did you check
>> if the libraries were even delivered from the module?
>> 
>> This should copy the libraries: 
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/trunk/main/sdext/prj/d.lst?revision=1457159&view=markup
>>
>> 
..\%__SRC%\lib\*.dylib %_DEST%\lib%_EXT%\*.dylib
>> 
>> Or even installed? 
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/trunk/main/scp2/source/ooo/file_library_ooo.scp?revision=1457159&view=markup#l1340
>>
>> 
UNXSUFFIX is .dylib, so this look fine.
>> 
> 
> If delivered, and installed, see if the components can be
> instantiated:
> 
> Sub Test Dim oPresenterJob as Object Dim oPresenterProtocol as
> Object Dim oMinimizer as Object Dim oMinimizerDlg as Object
> 
> oPresenterJob=
> CreateUnoService("com.sun.star.comp.Draw.framework.PresenterScreenJob")
>
> 
oPresenterProtocol=
CreateUnoService("vnd.sun.star.sdext.presenter.PresenterProtocolHandler")
> 
> oMinimizer=
> CreateUnoService("com.sun.star.comp.ui.dialogs.PresentationMinimizerDialog")
>
> 
oMinimizerDlg = CreateUnoService("com.sun.star.comp.PPPOptimizerImp")
> End Sub
> 
> Now that I look at this, even if there is no profile migration, I
> should change the names to avoid name clashes.

I did a quick check and the macro worked, all services could be
instantiated. I removed the user profile and ow it works which is of
course good. I thought I had started with a clean user profile
yesterday already.

Juergen

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Re: [CODE][PROPOSAL]: AOO 4.0 getting rid of the 3 layer office, part 1

[Jürgen Schmidt]

On 3/25/13 6:37 PM, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 05:37:06PM +0100, Andre Fischer wrote:
>> On 25.03.2013 03:36, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote:
>>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 07:04:53PM -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton
>>> wrote:
 @Ariel,
 
 This is where they are in 3.4.1.  Are you talking about a
 change for 4.0 or something else?
>>> Yes, by "now" I meant right-now, on trunk (it would be helpful
>>> if people -reading this mailing list, not normal users- use the
>>> builds from the build bots; it would help finding
>>> bugs/regressions early, not one week before voting the
>>> release).
>>> 
 The ones quoted below were installed with the normal
 installation (which is why they are under C:\Program
 Files\OpenOffice.org 3\).  I did nothing to obtain them as
 extensions.
>>> You are right, these extensions were bundled with the
>>> installation; IMO it was a non-sense from the beginning to
>>> develop these as extensions (at least the presentation
>>> minimizer and the presenter screen, that have no external
>>> dependencies).

I don't want to discuss the reason for the design as extension here
because it coming from the past and personally think extensions are
good fro many things but not for everything.

What I would have preferred is at least a short proposal mail in front
of the change that you plan to do that.

>> 
>> I disagree and I don't see why this change should be a good
>> thing.
>> 
>> Being an extension has several advantages:
>> 
>> -  Updates can be provided independently of the AOO release
>> cycle.
> 
> When was the Presenter Screen released since OpenOffice is at the
> ASF?
> 
>> This is something that I have used several times in the past and 
>> always was very glad that I had it.
> 
> Did AOO ever release the extensions? No. You can go to the
> extension site and there are still the Sun/Oracle versions of these
> extensions (the wiki publisher is even named "Sun").
> 
>> - Easy control over the feature set that is shipped with
>> OpenOffice. This is something that we use extensively for
>> dictionaries.
> 
> If dictionaries were ALv2, for sure AOO would include them, as 
> Sun/Oracle did (this was something the native-lang asked for long
> time). So this is something we use with dictionaries just because
> we cannot include them by default.
> 
>> - Forces the developer to write clean code that does not use 
>> anything outside the ODK.
> 
> You must be kidding, "nothing outside the ODK" is not what happened
> with the Presenter Screen, you know this as you were the one that
> developed it :)
> 
> The work-arounds used to develop the Present Screen only show how
> badly designed is sometimes the API (I'm talking about the canvas
> module, a *whole* API module that cannot be used by the API users).
> IMO this is the proof that this was no clean code that uses only
> stuff in ODK: 
> http://www.openoffice.org/api/docs/common/ref/com/sun/star/drawing/XPresenterHelper.html
>
>  "This interface is a collection of functions that are necessary
> to implement larger parts of the presenter screen as extension. The
> methods of this interface give access to services that can, at the
> moment, only implemented in the Office core, not in an extension."
> 
> Could you have developed the Presenter Screen without such a
> workaround? The same applies for the ReportBuilder, but we don't
> build it anyway.
> 
> A "normal" extension developer could have never developed the
> Presenter Screen. The Presenter Screen and the Report Builder
> needed code in the application core (and not only designing new
> API): for the case of the Presenter Screen, could it work without
> the code here? 
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/trunk/main/sd/source/ui/presenter/
>
> 
I think this doesn't matter here and the design is of course related
to the general decision to provide it as extension.

>From my pov it is a very useful core feature and integrated in the
code directly make sense. The question is if the design at all would
have been completely different without the tweaks and workarounds?


> So you choose the worst example, the WikiPublisher and the
> Presentation Minimizer are certainly pure UNO code, but the PS no.
> 
>> I personally would like to see more code moved to extensions
>> than the other way round.
> 
> While I agree in general, I disagree with the case of these three 
> extensions.

I tend to agree but the ReportBuilder is a different problem.

> 
>> In this special case I would like to know how the user can turn
>> of the presenter screen.  Did you add a button or option for
>> this?.
> 
> No, I guess the user can deactivate the UNO component (I'm
> kidding). How does the user deactivate it now? As bundled extension
> is not listed in the Extension Manager. The average user will have
> no idea that the Presenter Screen is installed as an extension.
> 
>> The original idea was that activation/deactivation is done by 
>> activating/installing or de

Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Jürgen Schmidt]

On 3/26/13 7:16 AM, Mechtilde wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> We need base with its easy way to connect to databases like mysql
> or postgresql especially under other OS's than Windows.
> 
> we ourselves developed an extension based on this funktion for Law 
> Offices in Germany
> 
> There is no other free Office Suite which had a databse modul which
> you can use therefore.

the valid point is that we need maintainer for this code. Otherwise it
becomes even more buggy and that is even more damaging we don't have
such support at all from my pov. But I can understand your demand for it.

The key point is that we have to focus and I think we can't do
everything. Power users can do probably a lot with extensions using
the core database API's. I don't know for sure I never looked deeply
in the database area.

Juergen

> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Mechtilde
> 
> Am 26.03.2013 01:29, schrieb Fred Ollinger:
>> Perhaps a survey question could be regarding this. How many
>> people use it? What features do they use? What features do they
>> want. To MS Access users, it could be, feature(s) would get you
>> to switch to AOOO for all DB needs?
>> 
>> Fred
>> 
>> 
> 


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Re: [CODE][PROPOSAL]: AOO 4.0 getting rid of the 3 layer office, part 1

[Andre Fischer]

On 25.03.2013 18:37, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote:

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 05:37:06PM +0100, Andre Fischer wrote:

On 25.03.2013 03:36, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote:

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 07:04:53PM -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

@Ariel,

This is where they are in 3.4.1.  Are you talking about a change for 4.0 or 
something else?

Yes, by "now" I meant right-now, on trunk (it would be helpful if people
-reading this mailing list, not normal users- use the builds from the
build bots; it would help finding bugs/regressions early, not one week
before voting the release).


The ones quoted below were installed with the normal installation (which is why 
they are under
C:\Program Files\OpenOffice.org 3\).  I did nothing to obtain them as 
extensions.

You are right, these extensions were bundled with the installation; IMO
it was a non-sense from the beginning to develop these as extensions (at
least the presentation minimizer and the presenter screen, that have no
external dependencies).

I disagree and I don't see why this change should be a good thing.

Being an extension has several advantages:

-  Updates can be provided independently of the AOO release cycle.

When was the Presenter Screen released since OpenOffice is at the ASF?


This is something that I have used several times in the past and
always was very glad that I had it.

Did AOO ever release the extensions? No. You can go to the extension
site and there are still the Sun/Oracle versions of these extensions
(the wiki publisher is even named "Sun").


I am not sure what your point is.   I said that in the past I have 
gladly used the opportunity to release bug fixes for the presenter 
console without having to wait for the next release of OpenOffice.org.  
I do not claim that this is the preferred way.


The presenter console extensions has not been released under AOO because 
it was part of AOO and there where not improvements or bug fixes that 
needed out of sync distribution.  And I did not find the time to put a 
new version with updated license into the extension repository.





- Easy control over the feature set that is shipped with OpenOffice.
This is something that we use extensively for dictionaries.

If dictionaries were ALv2, for sure AOO would include them, as
Sun/Oracle did (this was something the native-lang asked for long time).
So this is something we use with dictionaries just because we cannot
include them by default.


No.  If the licenses where different then we would still need a way to 
make the set of included dictionaries configurable.  We might end up 
using pre-bundled extensions for that.  If otherwise dictionaries would 
be integrated into some module, then we would have to build the whole 
office for each language set (a matter of hours) instead of just 
building the installation set (just some minutes).





- Forces the developer to write clean code that does not use
anything outside the ODK.

You must be kidding, "nothing outside the ODK" is not what happened with
the Presenter Screen, you know this as you were the one that developed
it :)


No, I am not kidding.  If I look at the makefile of the presenter 
console I see this for linked libraries:


SHL1STDLIBS=$(CPPUHELPERLIB)\
$(CPPULIB)\
$(SALLIB)



The work-arounds used to develop the Present Screen only show how badly
designed is sometimes the API (I'm talking about the canvas module,
a *whole* API module that cannot be used by the API users). IMO this is
the proof that this was no clean code that uses only stuff in ODK:
http://www.openoffice.org/api/docs/common/ref/com/sun/star/drawing/XPresenterHelper.html


Again.  I don't see your point.  Is the UNO API perfectly or at least 
well designed? No, certainly not.  But it is a lot better designed than 
the underlying core libraries.  Yes, I needed a small set of functions 
that where not present via the API.  So what?  It was not available in 
the core either.




"This interface is a collection of functions that are necessary to
implement larger parts of the presenter screen as extension. The methods
of this interface give access to services that can, at the moment, only
implemented in the Office core, not in an extension."


And it goes on like this:

"With time some, maybe all, methods can moved to other, better suited, 
interfaces."


I admit that I was too lazy to do that and clean up the UNO API a bit more.



Could you have developed the Presenter Screen without such a workaround? The
same applies for the ReportBuilder, but we don't build it anyway.

A "normal" extension developer could have never developed the Presenter
Screen.


And again, what is your point?  The presenter console makes heavy use of 
the canvas.  The canvas is used for every graphical output, for every 
pixel on the screen.  And every call to the canvas is made via the UNO 
API.  Of course you finally implement missing functionality on top of 
the core libraries.  But that is

Re: [CODE][PROPOSAL]: AOO 4.0 getting rid of the 3 layer office, part 1

[Ariel Constenla-Haile]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 10:32:58AM +0100, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> >>> You are right, these extensions were bundled with the
> >>> installation; IMO it was a non-sense from the beginning to
> >>> develop these as extensions (at least the presentation
> >>> minimizer and the presenter screen, that have no external
> >>> dependencies).
> 
> I don't want to discuss the reason for the design as extension here
> because it coming from the past and personally think extensions are
> good fro many things but not for everything.
> 
> What I would have preferred is at least a short proposal mail in front
> of the change that you plan to do that.

Mea culpa, it didn't ever cross my mind to do so, nor thought the change
was controversial, I just opened the bug reports on March the 9th

https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121871
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121872
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121873

submitted the patch, and in the weekend committed the code (which
I tested on two platforms for two weeks). I would expect that
people/developers are subscribed to our issues mailing list, and read
the bug reports (at least, I do so).

If for every code commit you expect a mail (and possible -IMO- pointless
discussion here on the mailing list with people that know nothing about
code - what at the ends is just of waste of developer time reading the
mails and answering), then it would be better to implement code review,
like LO has done with gerrit. 

> >> In this special case I would like to know how the user can turn
> >> of the presenter screen.  Did you add a button or option for
> >> this?.
> > 
> > No, I guess the user can deactivate the UNO component (I'm
> > kidding). How does the user deactivate it now? As bundled extension
> > is not listed in the Extension Manager. The average user will have
> > no idea that the Presenter Screen is installed as an extension.
> > 
> >> The original idea was that activation/deactivation is done by 
> >> activating/installing or deactivating/uninstalling the
> >> extension. That was somewhat undermined by product managers who
> >> shipped the extension with OOo but hid the Presenter Console
> >> extension from the extension manager.  It was still possible to
> >> uninstall the extension but not via the UI.
> > 
> > I don't see a regression here, from the user perspective, in 3.4.1
> > the Presenter Screen cannot be deactivated.
> 
> The missing option to disable the presenter screen is a valid point
> from Andre. 

As I answered to Hagar, an option in the Options dialog, and the
respective configuration registry entry is the best approach, and very
doable.

Note that I am not a "lunatic" who wants to have always the reason and
the last word, nor a "drama queen" who will leave to LO because someone
didn't like a commit of mine; on the contrary, if Andre does not like
the approach, I'm fine with him reverting it :)

But please, if doing so, then

* fix the preregister extension/uno sync brokenness on Linux
* and/or fix the original bug with the deadlock which ended on the
  extension being prereg.
* and make sure that in time, for the release, the extensions are ready
  to be released, too
* fixing the problem of the double space consumption by preregistered
  extensions would also be fine, thought it does not seem simple

All of these problems are not present with my approach of integrating
these two extensions (I guess this is the reason why it never crossed my
mind that this change would be something polemic/arguable).


Regards
-- 
Ariel Constenla-Haile
La Plata, Argentina


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Re: [CODE][PROPOSAL]: AOO 4.0 getting rid of the 3 layer office, part 1

[Jürgen Schmidt]

On 3/26/13 11:07 AM, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 10:32:58AM +0100, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> You are right, these extensions were bundled with the 
> installation; IMO it was a non-sense from the beginning to 
> develop these as extensions (at least the presentation 
> minimizer and the presenter screen, that have no external 
> dependencies).
>> 
>> I don't want to discuss the reason for the design as extension
>> here because it coming from the past and personally think
>> extensions are good fro many things but not for everything.
>> 
>> What I would have preferred is at least a short proposal mail in
>> front of the change that you plan to do that.
> 
> Mea culpa, it didn't ever cross my mind to do so, nor thought the
> change was controversial, I just opened the bug reports on March
> the 9th
> 
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121871 
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121872 
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121873
> 
> submitted the patch, and in the weekend committed the code (which I
> tested on two platforms for two weeks). I would expect that 
> people/developers are subscribed to our issues mailing list, and
> read the bug reports (at least, I do so).

me to but I miss a lot of messages as well, I read so many emails ;-)

> 
> If for every code commit you expect a mail (and possible -IMO-
> pointless discussion here on the mailing list with people that know
> nothing about code - what at the ends is just of waste of developer
> time reading the mails and answering), then it would be better to
> implement code review, like LO has done with gerrit.

I don't think we need to discuss everything but a short mail should be
also no big effort. In most cases where deeper knowledge is required I
expect less discussion or feedback. The advantage is that nobody can
complain later about the change ;-)

I don't think it is a problem. I am working now for IBM today and some
people seems to have a problem with IBM as one of the bigger sponsors
in this project. We want collaborate with others and don't want
control anything. We just want to drive things forward where we can.
And I personally started to inform early about potential bigger
changes to ensure that people know about it and can't complain later.
We did it for the sidebar and involve the community early and collect
feedback. That's it.

I think the gerrit approach is also very interesting but don't know
enough about it at the moment. I am not sure if would really help us
at the moment. Or something similar.

> 
 In this special case I would like to know how the user can
 turn of the presenter screen.  Did you add a button or option
 for this?.
>>> 
>>> No, I guess the user can deactivate the UNO component (I'm 
>>> kidding). How does the user deactivate it now? As bundled
>>> extension is not listed in the Extension Manager. The average
>>> user will have no idea that the Presenter Screen is installed
>>> as an extension.
>>> 
 The original idea was that activation/deactivation is done by
  activating/installing or deactivating/uninstalling the 
 extension. That was somewhat undermined by product managers
 who shipped the extension with OOo but hid the Presenter
 Console extension from the extension manager.  It was still
 possible to uninstall the extension but not via the UI.
>>> 
>>> I don't see a regression here, from the user perspective, in
>>> 3.4.1 the Presenter Screen cannot be deactivated.
>> 
>> The missing option to disable the presenter screen is a valid
>> point from Andre.
> 
> As I answered to Hagar, an option in the Options dialog, and the 
> respective configuration registry entry is the best approach, and
> very doable.
> 
> Note that I am not a "lunatic" who wants to have always the reason
> and the last word, nor a "drama queen" who will leave to LO because
> someone didn't like a commit of mine; on the contrary, if Andre
> does not like the approach, I'm fine with him reverting it :)

I don't think this will is necessary, all here are very happy with
your work in the project. And the change is not bad at all.

> 
> But please, if doing so, then
> 
> * fix the preregister extension/uno sync brokenness on Linux *
> and/or fix the original bug with the deadlock which ended on the 
> extension being prereg. * and make sure that in time, for the
> release, the extensions are ready to be released, too * fixing the
> problem of the double space consumption by preregistered extensions
> would also be fine, thought it does not seem simple

fixing or reworking, both would be fine in general. I haven't looked
in the changes from Stephan in detail but every simplification is
welcome. In this area the design was also driven by some questionable
decision of others ;-)

> 
> All of these problems are not present with my approach of
> integrating these two extensions (I guess this is the reason why it
> never crossed my m

Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Fernand Vanrie]

 Ariel ,


Well no doubt this may start a rather heated discussion.

One of my favorites quotes about Base is from Andreas Säger (villeroy on
the forums):

"The difference between MS Access and Base amounts to several millions of
Dollars and more than one decade of development time.

Once you got used to MS Access, it is rather unlikely that you will ever
be able to work with any other set of database utilities.

I wish the AOO team had the balls to remove all the experimental trash
while keeping bare important database connectivity for the pros.

+20

Pros want to connect to there compagny based Database Server, msQL, 
mysql, Oracle etc... and the want Stable and speedy Native Connectors 
(even to MSQL)


General users want to connect to flat files, Spreadsheets , and there 
Email adress books


1% uses the internal base to store some data

so please concentrate the developer efforts to make the connectivity - 
and the frontend functions better and at least uptodate


As a example: Frank Shönheit  made a very usefull grid functionality, it 
works, but need some more work to make it perfect for professional use...


greetz

Fernand


Since
2006 the whole concept of Base with the embedded HSQLDB and wizards is
proven to be completely wrong, wrong, wrong."

http://markmail.org/message/izhtpii5li57lnjn


I don't really know who the author is, but, I too, had been giving this a
great deal of thought. Does a user know what any of this really means, for
example. And, including an embedded DB like HSQL puts added responsibility
for that embedded DB on this project.  What if Base were  strictly  a
front-end?

So, does anyone have any further insights into how many users, if any,
directly use Base to create and use their own individual DBs as opposed to
using the "front-end" capabilities?

This is hard too guess. The majority of AOO users are Windows users, so
you can asume that the "average user" that tries Base with a MS Office
background, is looking for something like MS Access. I guess this was
what drove Sun to create the ODB file with embedded db inside. With such
an expectation, no wonder this average user gets frustrated with Base.


For the whole topic, though it might be interesting to discuss it, IMHO
it is completely pointless: look at the history in

trunk/main/connectivity
trunk/main/dbaccess
trunk/main/reportdesign
trunk/main/reportbuilder

if there is no one to maintain the code, it will end up being dead code,
so it's not a matter of "having the balls" (at least not *just* this);
it's a matter of knowing the code, or willing to learn it and work on it
(be it for removing Base embedded completely, or for fixing Base bugs,
or developing Base features).

Many mails can be written discussing dropping embedded HSQLDB engine,
but at the end who will do this?

Given that the not-so-difficult bug for building with Java 7 (it has
even the explanation from the HSQLDB developer on the bug, telling how
to fix it) didn't find someone to take care of him, removing HSQLDB
seems something unrealistic. Just let it die.


Regards



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Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Fernand Vanrie]

 Mechtilde

Hello,

We need base with its easy way to connect to databases like mysql or
postgresql especially under other OS's than Windows.

we ourselves developed an extension based on this funktion for Law
Offices in Germany

There is no other free Office Suite which had a databse modul which you
can use therefore.

i agree


Kind regards

Mechtilde

Am 26.03.2013 01:29, schrieb Fred Ollinger:

Perhaps a survey question could be regarding this. How many people use
it? What features do they use? What features do they want. To MS
Access users, it could be, feature(s) would get you to switch to AOOO
for all DB needs?

Fred





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Re: [CODE][PROPOSAL]: AOO 4.0 getting rid of the 3 layer office, part 1

[janI]

On 26 March 2013 11:36, Jürgen Schmidt  wrote:

> On 3/26/13 11:07 AM, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 10:32:58AM +0100, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> > You are right, these extensions were bundled with the
> > installation; IMO it was a non-sense from the beginning to
> > develop these as extensions (at least the presentation
> > minimizer and the presenter screen, that have no external
> > dependencies).
> >>
> >> I don't want to discuss the reason for the design as extension
> >> here because it coming from the past and personally think
> >> extensions are good fro many things but not for everything.
> >>
> >> What I would have preferred is at least a short proposal mail in
> >> front of the change that you plan to do that.
> >
> > Mea culpa, it didn't ever cross my mind to do so, nor thought the
> > change was controversial, I just opened the bug reports on March
> > the 9th
> >
> > https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121871
> > https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121872
> > https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121873
> >
> > submitted the patch, and in the weekend committed the code (which I
> > tested on two platforms for two weeks). I would expect that
> > people/developers are subscribed to our issues mailing list, and
> > read the bug reports (at least, I do so).
>
> me to but I miss a lot of messages as well, I read so many emails ;-)
>
> >
> > If for every code commit you expect a mail (and possible -IMO-
> > pointless discussion here on the mailing list with people that know
> > nothing about code - what at the ends is just of waste of developer
> > time reading the mails and answering), then it would be better to
> > implement code review, like LO has done with gerrit.
>
> I don't think we need to discuss everything but a short mail should be
> also no big effort. In most cases where deeper knowledge is required I
> expect less discussion or feedback. The advantage is that nobody can
> complain later about the change ;-)
>
> I don't think it is a problem. I am working now for IBM today and some
> people seems to have a problem with IBM as one of the bigger sponsors
> in this project. We want collaborate with others and don't want
> control anything. We just want to drive things forward where we can.
> And I personally started to inform early about potential bigger
> changes to ensure that people know about it and can't complain later.
> We did it for the sidebar and involve the community early and collect
> feedback. That's it.
>
> I think the gerrit approach is also very interesting but don't know
> enough about it at the moment. I am not sure if would really help us
> at the moment. Or something similar.
>
> >
>  In this special case I would like to know how the user can
>  turn of the presenter screen.  Did you add a button or option
>  for this?.
> >>>
> >>> No, I guess the user can deactivate the UNO component (I'm
> >>> kidding). How does the user deactivate it now? As bundled
> >>> extension is not listed in the Extension Manager. The average
> >>> user will have no idea that the Presenter Screen is installed
> >>> as an extension.
> >>>
>  The original idea was that activation/deactivation is done by
>   activating/installing or deactivating/uninstalling the
>  extension. That was somewhat undermined by product managers
>  who shipped the extension with OOo but hid the Presenter
>  Console extension from the extension manager.  It was still
>  possible to uninstall the extension but not via the UI.
> >>>
> >>> I don't see a regression here, from the user perspective, in
> >>> 3.4.1 the Presenter Screen cannot be deactivated.
> >>
> >> The missing option to disable the presenter screen is a valid
> >> point from Andre.
> >
> > As I answered to Hagar, an option in the Options dialog, and the
> > respective configuration registry entry is the best approach, and
> > very doable.
> >
> > Note that I am not a "lunatic" who wants to have always the reason
> > and the last word, nor a "drama queen" who will leave to LO because
> > someone didn't like a commit of mine; on the contrary, if Andre
> > does not like the approach, I'm fine with him reverting it :)
>
> I don't think this will is necessary, all here are very happy with
> your work in the project. And the change is not bad at all.
>
> >
> > But please, if doing so, then
> >
> > * fix the preregister extension/uno sync brokenness on Linux *
> > and/or fix the original bug with the deadlock which ended on the
> > extension being prereg. * and make sure that in time, for the
> > release, the extensions are ready to be released, too * fixing the
> > problem of the double space consumption by preregistered extensions
> > would also be fine, thought it does not seem simple
>
> fixing or reworking, both would be fine in general. I haven't looked
> in the changes from Stephan in detail but every simplification is
> welcome. In this area the 

Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Damjan Jovanovic]

+1 to a survey.

Also anecdotal descriptions and links to emails don't help much.
Please list the relevant Bugzilla bugs here so those of us that care
can look at fixing them.

Damjan

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 2:29 AM, Fred Ollinger  wrote:
> Perhaps a survey question could be regarding this. How many people use
> it? What features do they use? What features do they want. To MS
> Access users, it could be, feature(s) would get you to switch to AOOO
> for all DB needs?
>
> Fred
>
> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Ariel Constenla-Haile
>  wrote:
>> Hi Kay,
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 03:58:06PM -0700, Kay Schenk wrote:
>>> Well no doubt this may start a rather heated discussion.
>>
>> One of my favorites quotes about Base is from Andreas Säger (villeroy on
>> the forums):
>>
>> "The difference between MS Access and Base amounts to several millions of
>> Dollars and more than one decade of development time.
>>
>> Once you got used to MS Access, it is rather unlikely that you will ever
>> be able to work with any other set of database utilities.
>>
>> I wish the AOO team had the balls to remove all the experimental trash
>> while keeping bare important database connectivity for the pros. Since
>> 2006 the whole concept of Base with the embedded HSQLDB and wizards is
>> proven to be completely wrong, wrong, wrong."
>>
>> http://markmail.org/message/izhtpii5li57lnjn
>>
>>> I don't really know who the author is, but, I too, had been giving this a
>>> great deal of thought. Does a user know what any of this really means, for
>>> example. And, including an embedded DB like HSQL puts added responsibility
>>> for that embedded DB on this project.  What if Base were  strictly  a
>>> front-end?
>>>
>>> So, does anyone have any further insights into how many users, if any,
>>> directly use Base to create and use their own individual DBs as opposed to
>>> using the "front-end" capabilities?
>>
>> This is hard too guess. The majority of AOO users are Windows users, so
>> you can asume that the "average user" that tries Base with a MS Office
>> background, is looking for something like MS Access. I guess this was
>> what drove Sun to create the ODB file with embedded db inside. With such
>> an expectation, no wonder this average user gets frustrated with Base.
>>
>>
>> For the whole topic, though it might be interesting to discuss it, IMHO
>> it is completely pointless: look at the history in
>>
>> trunk/main/connectivity
>> trunk/main/dbaccess
>> trunk/main/reportdesign
>> trunk/main/reportbuilder
>>
>> if there is no one to maintain the code, it will end up being dead code,
>> so it's not a matter of "having the balls" (at least not *just* this);
>> it's a matter of knowing the code, or willing to learn it and work on it
>> (be it for removing Base embedded completely, or for fixing Base bugs,
>> or developing Base features).
>>
>> Many mails can be written discussing dropping embedded HSQLDB engine,
>> but at the end who will do this?
>>
>> Given that the not-so-difficult bug for building with Java 7 (it has
>> even the explanation from the HSQLDB developer on the bug, telling how
>> to fix it) didn't find someone to take care of him, removing HSQLDB
>> seems something unrealistic. Just let it die.
>>
>>
>> Regards
>> --
>> Ariel Constenla-Haile
>> La Plata, Argentina
>
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Re: updating Splashscreen

[Louis Suárez-Potts]

Hi,

On 13-03-26, at 24:41 , Samer Mansour  wrote:

> I think we should start first with what the purpose of the splash screen is:
> 
> 1 Welcome users. Hi I'm OpenOffice.

/me is sour this morning and particularly dyspeptic toward wannabe imitations 
of Clippy. :-)
> 
> 2 Provide loading progress.  If loading is so fast do we even need a bar.
> Perhaps a spinning circle is better to show activity.

My OOo loads in probably less than 6 seconds. (SSD). 
> 
> 3 Is there any specific requirements. Ie. Legal, asf logo requirement.
> My thought, its unlikely we have legal requirement as its not even up long
> enough for users to read in order to adhere to.

Hypertext was created for a reason…..
> 
> My contribution in this conversation is to stand in the user's shoes.
> Think little sister or mom. Do they read that? Is it foreign concept? Do
> they care? Should they really care?

Not all do and not all ought and not all who ought to will nor will they find 
what they ought to be caring about even if they didn't know they ought to. So 
minimal is better and pointers best and the signified at the end of the 
predicated sentence all the nicer that it's terminal.
> 
> If we cut out text and objects that don't really matter, when it comes time
> to present the user with something that does matter they will more likely
> read it.
> 
In your dreams ? :-)


> Please note I am listening to feedback with ears wide open, no comment is a
> stupid comment. I will place feedback into the application screens wiki
> page I started.

This is a splash screen. No one With A Life, unless they are really bored at 1 
AM and have been seeing the damn thing, in its erratic evolution, for the last 
dozen years, pays attention to it.** In fact, People With A Life remove it, at 
least those who are so inclined to do so and can. The less the better. What you 
have suggested is useful and worth investigating—we've always thought that a 
good endpoint is useful for increasing the community, eg., John's Why? page of 
2009, but it can be pointed to by the splash screen, along with the credits. 
That's where we should have the encouraging information, a la Firefox and many 
other Foss artefacts.

Indeed, being as clever and engaging as we are wont to be is always good—but in 
the right place, yes?

best
louis

** Exception: Back around 2006, or so, Sun replaced the fairly innocuous if 
imperfectly colloquial splash screen showing OpenOffice.org with an 
aggressively big Sun banner that overshadowed any pip-squeak community notice. 
This did not go over well, at least not with the "community." That was probably 
the last time the splash was so attended to. Besides that, of course, many 
redistributes of OOo replaced the screen .png with their own marketing efforts. 
No doubt with brilliant success, as we can see.
 
> 
> Samer
> On Mar 25, 2013 8:59 AM, "Louis Suárez-Potts"  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On 13-03-25, at 07:41 , Rob Weir  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts 
>> wrote:
 The new-ish splashcreen improves on the old, which had the charm of
>> being written in not-quite-colloquial English. But now its as charming as a
>> gap toothed smile. Things are missing.
 
 So:
 
 NOW:
 
 Copyright © 2012 Apache Software Foundation.
 All rights reserved.
 
 This product was created by Apache Software Foundation, based on Apache
>> OpenOffice.
 Apache OpenOffice acknowledges all community members, especially those
>> mentioned at .
 
>>> 
>>> Or just drop the 2nd paragraph.  You can't click on the link in the
>>> splash screen, right?  And it is not up long enough for anyone to
>>> write it down.  We can cover that info in Help/About.
>>> 
>>> -Rob
>> 
>> Suits me.
>> 
>> louis
>>> 
 —
 
 IMPROVED:
 
 Copyright © 2012 Apache Software Foundation.
 All rights reserved.
 
 This product, Apache OpenOffice, was created by The Apache Software
>> Foundation and is based on code hosted by the ASF.
 We recognize the contributions of the members constituting the Apache
>> OpenOffice Project and in particular credit those mentioned at
 
 --
 
 -louis
 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
 For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
 
>>> 
>>> -
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
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>> 
>> 


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Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Rob Weir]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> Well no doubt this may start a rather heated discussion. I started looking
> into the history of the Base component, who is using it now (looked into
> Forums, users discussion list), and finally came upon the following FAQ
> (edited a LOT just recently):
>
> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/FAQ_%28Base%29
>
> which seems to indicate (hmmm)--
>
>  "Is Base a database?
>
> Not technically. Base serves several roles within the *Office suite
> (AOO/
> LibO ), but Base *itself* is strictly an
> interface (or 
> front-end)
> designed to connect to various types of databases, by means of
> driverfiles."
>
>
> ...and then
>
> "Base offers to create an *all-in-one 'embedded database' file* similar to
> MS Access. In this configuration, the front-end components (queries, forms,
> reports and macros) are packaged together with the database files produced
> by HSQLDB, all within a single Base (.odb) file. Unfortunately, this
> single-file concept has proven unreliable with Base, leading to rampant
> data 
> corruption.
> So it's best to avoid the 'Create new database' wizard in Base thereby
> avoiding 'embedded database' files (perhaps with the exception of
> developing prototypes or distributing
> examples).
> Fortunately, Base offers an alternative wizard which produces a robust '
> split-database'
> configuration in which the database (tables and user-data) is stored in a
> separate file (or files). Steps for creating a new 'split-database'
> utilizing the built-in HSQL database-engine with Base are outlined below."
>
>
> I don't really know who the author is, but, I too, had been giving this a
> great deal of thought. Does a user know what any of this really means, for
> example. And, including an embedded DB like HSQL puts added responsibility
> for that embedded DB on this project.  What if Base were  strictly  a
> front-end?
>
> So, does anyone have any further insights into how many users, if any,
> directly use Base to create and use their own individual DBs as opposed to
> using the "front-end" capabilities?
>

Some other interesting facts, most of which we're already familiar with:

1) Microsoft doesn't include Access in their base Office packages.  So
on the one hand this means that most Office users don't use a
database, or they do lightweight database work in their spreadsheet.
On the other hand, the fact that OpenOffice has a database included is
a distinguishing feature of OpenOffice.

2) Symphony did not include Base.  So as we port Symphony improvements
over to OpenOffice,  we should not expect any Base improvements.  So
unless there is more dev effort in Base, it will fall behind in UI and
accessibility as well.

3) As others have mentioned, Base is only as good as we have
maintenance of it.  Some of mentioned the dev side.  We should also
note that knowledge of Base is a limiting factor on the QA side as
well. Since most users don't use Base, we have a shortage of testers
who know Base.

4) Although they are not the majority, there are certainly some users
who depend on Base and are passionate about it.  No survey is going to
resolve this for us.  There are Base users.

So the future is likely going to look like one of the following:

1) We encourage a critical mass of volunteers interested in
maintaining, improving, testing, documenting, supporting, etc., Base.
As we know achieving critical mass is made more difficult by the
senseless forking of the project, which hurts LibreOffice Base users
as well.

2) We continue as-is, with a gradual degradation in stability, until
an incompatible OS change, or a security flaw comes along and
administers the coup de grâce.

3) We drop Base before it gets to the point where it harms the
reputation of the project.

My ordered preference would be 1, 3, 2.

-Rob

>
>
> --
> 
> MzK
>
> "Achieving happiness requires the right combination of Zen and Zin."

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Re: updating Splashscreen

[Rob Weir]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 12:41 AM, Samer Mansour  wrote:
> I think we should start first with what the purpose of the splash screen is:
>
> 1 Welcome users. Hi I'm OpenOffice.
>
> 2 Provide loading progress.  If loading is so fast do we even need a bar.
> Perhaps a spinning circle is better to show activity.
>
> 3 Is there any specific requirements. Ie. Legal, asf logo requirement.
> My thought, its unlikely we have legal requirement as its not even up long
> enough for users to read in order to adhere to.
>

There are no legal requirements that I am aware of.  Take a look at
what Microsoft puts up for theirs:

http://windowsadmincenter.blogspot.com/2012/07/download-office-2013-home-premium-preview.html

It is very basic, and is up for so short a time that the main thing
that registers is the color.  Our load time is longer so maybe users
would notice some text.

But I think we should align with the user's thinking at this point.
They've launched OpenOffice, presumable *to do a task*.  They are not
researching the license.  They are not looking to find out the list of
OpenOffice contributors.  They have work to do and the splash screen
is only a delay for them.  So I'd keep it simple and focus mainly on
reassuring the user that they are in the right place, i.e., confirm
what app they are loading and that it actually is loading.

> My contribution in this conversation is to stand in the user's shoes.
> Think little sister or mom. Do they read that? Is it foreign concept? Do
> they care? Should they really care?
>

The care about the task they want to accomplish.  Their mind is focused on that.

-Rob

> If we cut out text and objects that don't really matter, when it comes time
> to present the user with something that does matter they will more likely
> read it.
>
> Please note I am listening to feedback with ears wide open, no comment is a
> stupid comment. I will place feedback into the application screens wiki
> page I started.
>
> Samer
> On Mar 25, 2013 8:59 AM, "Louis Suárez-Potts"  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 13-03-25, at 07:41 , Rob Weir  wrote:
>>
>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts 
>> wrote:
>> >> The new-ish splashcreen improves on the old, which had the charm of
>> being written in not-quite-colloquial English. But now its as charming as a
>> gap toothed smile. Things are missing.
>> >>
>> >> So:
>> >>
>> >> NOW:
>> >>
>> >> Copyright © 2012 Apache Software Foundation.
>> >> All rights reserved.
>> >>
>> >> This product was created by Apache Software Foundation, based on Apache
>> OpenOffice.
>> >> Apache OpenOffice acknowledges all community members, especially those
>> mentioned at .
>> >>
>> >
>> > Or just drop the 2nd paragraph.  You can't click on the link in the
>> > splash screen, right?  And it is not up long enough for anyone to
>> > write it down.  We can cover that info in Help/About.
>> >
>> > -Rob
>>
>> Suits me.
>>
>> louis
>> >
>> >> —
>> >>
>> >> IMPROVED:
>> >>
>> >> Copyright © 2012 Apache Software Foundation.
>> >> All rights reserved.
>> >>
>> >> This product, Apache OpenOffice, was created by The Apache Software
>> Foundation and is based on code hosted by the ASF.
>> >> We recognize the contributions of the members constituting the Apache
>> OpenOffice Project and in particular credit those mentioned at
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> -louis
>> >> -
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>> >>
>> >
>> > -
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>>
>>
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Re: CMS diff: Consensus Building

[Rob Weir]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Keith McKenna  wrote:
> Clone URL (Committers only):
> https://cms.apache.org/redirect?new=anonymous;action=diff;uri=http://openoffice.apache.org/docs%2Fgovernance%2FconsensusBuilding.mdtext
>
> Keith McKenna
>

Thanks for the patch.  I've checked it in.

-Rob


> Index: trunk/content/docs/governance/consensusBuilding.mdtext
> ===
> --- trunk/content/docs/governance/consensusBuilding.mdtext  (revision 
> 1460937)
> +++ trunk/content/docs/governance/consensusBuilding.mdtext  (working copy)
> @@ -63,4 +63,4 @@
>  Once there is a clear consensus members of the community can proceed with
>  the work under the [lazy consensus][1] model.
>
> -  [1]: /openofficeorg/docs/governance/lazyConsensus.html
> \ No newline at end of file
> +  [1]: /docs/governance/lazyConsensus.html
> \ No newline at end of file
>
>
> -
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Re: Problem with module VCL (libXinerama missing)

[Alan Eduardo Puc Pech]

Hello, I fix it with the following command from the terminal:
sudo apt-get install libxinerama-dev

thanks Herbert.

Regards


2013/3/26 Herbert Dürr 

> On 2013/03/25 8:30 PM, Alan Eduardo Puc Pech wrote:
>
>> Hello team, I'm Alan, Now I have a problem about building AOO with the
>> module VCL.
>>
>> The error this is:
>> [...]
>> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lXinerama
>>
>
> Please make sure that you have a package libxinerama-dev (or similar,
> depending on the distribution you are using).
>
>  When you have fixed the errors in that module you can resume the build by
>> running:
>>
>>  build --all:vcl
>>
>> I would like to know what this error is? because I went to this directory:
>> /home/alan/aoo/main/solver/**400/
>> unxlngi6.pro/workdir/**LinkTarget/Library/libvclplug_**gen.soand
>>  I did not
>> find this file: libvclplug_gen.so. I need your help.
>>
>
> The file libvclplug_gen.so would be the result library. It isn't build if
> one of its dependencies (in this case libXinerama) is missing.
>
> Herbert
>
> --**--**-
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>
>

Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Fernando Cassia]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> My ordered preference would be 1, 3


yeah, great *sarcasm*, let's add another bullet point to a microsoft
presentation titled 'how Microsoft Office is better than
OpenOfffice.org" OO.o lacks database? check!"

My opinion is that maybe Sun put HSQLDB in there to fill in the need for a
resident database engine, which in the commercial offering (StarOffice) was
filled by Adabas D.

One can still read the positive reviews of StarOffice where the database
module is praised:

http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Microsystems-0614647643195-StarOffice-7/dp/BDG2N4


* StarOffice Adabas (database application) is included (getting MS Access
requires buying MS Office Pro) and is easier to use than MS Access. Adabas
integrates with other StarOffice apps so, for instance, users can easily
create mail merge documents.
///

So, if HSQLDB is not up to par, maybe the realistic solution is to find a
database engine lightweight and powerful enough to take the role that
Adabas D had in StarOffice?.

FC
PS: I read this whole thread as 'we don't want to maintain this code, since
we don't understand it, and we fear it's buggy'. But the solution in any
case is replacing the database module for another, or improving the
existing code, not making excuses for saying 'people don't use databases
after all so it should be gone'.

Re: updating Splashscreen

[Jürgen Schmidt]

On 3/26/13 3:05 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 12:41 AM, Samer Mansour  wrote:
>> I think we should start first with what the purpose of the splash screen is:
>>
>> 1 Welcome users. Hi I'm OpenOffice.
>>
>> 2 Provide loading progress.  If loading is so fast do we even need a bar.
>> Perhaps a spinning circle is better to show activity.
>>
>> 3 Is there any specific requirements. Ie. Legal, asf logo requirement.
>> My thought, its unlikely we have legal requirement as its not even up long
>> enough for users to read in order to adhere to.
>>
> 
> There are no legal requirements that I am aware of.  Take a look at
> what Microsoft puts up for theirs:
> 
> http://windowsadmincenter.blogspot.com/2012/07/download-office-2013-home-premium-preview.html
> 
> It is very basic, and is up for so short a time that the main thing
> that registers is the color.  Our load time is longer so maybe users
> would notice some text.
> 
> But I think we should align with the user's thinking at this point.
> They've launched OpenOffice, presumable *to do a task*.  They are not
> researching the license.  They are not looking to find out the list of
> OpenOffice contributors.  They have work to do and the splash screen
> is only a delay for them.  So I'd keep it simple and focus mainly on
> reassuring the user that they are in the right place, i.e., confirm
> what app they are loading and that it actually is loading.
> 
>> My contribution in this conversation is to stand in the user's shoes.
>> Think little sister or mom. Do they read that? Is it foreign concept? Do
>> they care? Should they really care?
>>
> 
> The care about the task they want to accomplish.  Their mind is focused on 
> that.

I agree and would not spent too much on the splash screen.

More importsnt in the long term is a reworked start center with more
usable stuff like, the latest used or favorite templates, recent
documents more visible, maybe useful hints and short tipps or so. I
don't know using the whole are is possible. But probably not for 4.0
because of the time constraints.

For 4.0 we should focus on the low hanging fruits, logo, icons, app
icons, installer images etc. Easy to exchange stuff.

I am not against anything in the other areas but the work have to be
done and I would focus on the other things first. Nice new icons are of
much more value to our users and much more visible.

Juergen

> 
> -Rob
> 
>> If we cut out text and objects that don't really matter, when it comes time
>> to present the user with something that does matter they will more likely
>> read it.
>>
>> Please note I am listening to feedback with ears wide open, no comment is a
>> stupid comment. I will place feedback into the application screens wiki
>> page I started.
>>
>> Samer
>> On Mar 25, 2013 8:59 AM, "Louis Suárez-Potts"  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 13-03-25, at 07:41 , Rob Weir  wrote:
>>>
 On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts 
>>> wrote:
> The new-ish splashcreen improves on the old, which had the charm of
>>> being written in not-quite-colloquial English. But now its as charming as a
>>> gap toothed smile. Things are missing.
>
> So:
>
> NOW:
>
> Copyright © 2012 Apache Software Foundation.
> All rights reserved.
>
> This product was created by Apache Software Foundation, based on Apache
>>> OpenOffice.
> Apache OpenOffice acknowledges all community members, especially those
>>> mentioned at .
>

 Or just drop the 2nd paragraph.  You can't click on the link in the
 splash screen, right?  And it is not up long enough for anyone to
 write it down.  We can cover that info in Help/About.

 -Rob
>>>
>>> Suits me.
>>>
>>> louis

> —
>
> IMPROVED:
>
> Copyright © 2012 Apache Software Foundation.
> All rights reserved.
>
> This product, Apache OpenOffice, was created by The Apache Software
>>> Foundation and is based on code hosted by the ASF.
> We recognize the contributions of the members constituting the Apache
>>> OpenOffice Project and in particular credit those mentioned at
>
> --
>
> -louis
> -
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>

 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
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>>>
>>>
>>> -
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>>>
>>>
> 
> -
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> For additional commands, e-mail: 

Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Jürgen Schmidt]

On 3/26/13 3:35 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> 
>> My ordered preference would be 1, 3
> 
> 
> yeah, great *sarcasm*, let's add another bullet point to a microsoft
> presentation titled 'how Microsoft Office is better than
> OpenOfffice.org" OO.o lacks database? check!"

I don't see any sarcasm here but a valid order to address this problem.

Do we really want compete with MS? Or do we want provide an open source
and open standard based office productivity suite that can do most of
the daily tasks of common users of such an office suite? I personally
think we want the second and want help people who are open minded to
solve their problems first and want to save money for other things.

If MS is better in certain areas users have to ask if they need it and
if they depend on the feature. In case of companies it always possible
to have a mixed deployment of 95% OpenOffice and 5% percent MS Office or
something like that.

We are a very good and high quality alternative but not always a 1:1
replacement. It really depends what you have to do. I personally can
live perfectly with OpenOffice.

> 
> My opinion is that maybe Sun put HSQLDB in there to fill in the need for a
> resident database engine, which in the commercial offering (StarOffice) was
> filled by Adabas D.
> 
> One can still read the positive reviews of StarOffice where the database
> module is praised:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Microsystems-0614647643195-StarOffice-7/dp/BDG2N4
> 
> 
> * StarOffice Adabas (database application) is included (getting MS Access
> requires buying MS Office Pro) and is easier to use than MS Access. Adabas
> integrates with other StarOffice apps so, for instance, users can easily
> create mail merge documents.
> ///
> 
> So, if HSQLDB is not up to par, maybe the realistic solution is to find a
> database engine lightweight and powerful enough to take the role that
> Adabas D had in StarOffice?.
> 
> FC
> PS: I read this whole thread as 'we don't want to maintain this code, since
> we don't understand it, and we fear it's buggy'. But the solution in any
> case is replacing the database module for another, or improving the
> existing code, not making excuses for saying 'people don't use databases
> after all so it should be gone'.
> 

nobody said we don't want, the key point that nobody worked on it,
nobody maintains it, does improvements etc. We see of course demand for
it but on the other hand we also see that it makes only sense with some
degree of quality. Everything else can be more damaging for the project
at all.
I think it is not so hard to understand that a project driven by
volunteers need volunteers for the certain areas or code get
unmaintained, unstable, buggy over time or lacks for certain features
and improvements ...

Juergen



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Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Damjan Jovanovic]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Fernando Cassia  wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>
>> My ordered preference would be 1, 3
>
>
> yeah, great *sarcasm*, let's add another bullet point to a microsoft
> presentation titled 'how Microsoft Office is better than
> OpenOfffice.org" OO.o lacks database? check!"
>
> My opinion is that maybe Sun put HSQLDB in there to fill in the need for a
> resident database engine, which in the commercial offering (StarOffice) was
> filled by Adabas D.
>
> One can still read the positive reviews of StarOffice where the database
> module is praised:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Microsystems-0614647643195-StarOffice-7/dp/BDG2N4
>
> 
> * StarOffice Adabas (database application) is included (getting MS Access
> requires buying MS Office Pro) and is easier to use than MS Access. Adabas
> integrates with other StarOffice apps so, for instance, users can easily
> create mail merge documents.
> ///
>
> So, if HSQLDB is not up to par, maybe the realistic solution is to find a
> database engine lightweight and powerful enough to take the role that
> Adabas D had in StarOffice?.
>
> FC
> PS: I read this whole thread as 'we don't want to maintain this code, since
> we don't understand it, and we fear it's buggy'. But the solution in any
> case is replacing the database module for another, or improving the
> existing code, not making excuses for saying 'people don't use databases
> after all so it should be gone'.

+1

Again I ask: where are the Bugzilla bugs?

A quick search finds a corruption bug
(https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=55496) which states:
"While it's difficult to fix this with our current approach, where the data is
just some sub-streams in a ZIP package, we need to somehow address this. I fear
this might in fact only be possible with a package format (replacing the ZIP
package format for this purpose) which allows O(1) random access to all of its
parts."

If that's the only problem, I don't think the author of that message
realized that there is a way to get O(1) random access to the contents
of a zipped file: ZIP files allow each archived file to use its own
compression type, including no compression. HSQLDB could write
directly to its uncompressed byte range in the ZIP file, with a thin
shim checking for when it attempts to write beyond the end of this
range (ie. grow the database), and then it could expand the ZIP file
to accommodate it. With a bit of cleverness, this could even be done
in-place, by keeping the HSQL database at the end of the ZIP file
(when possible), and just moving up and updating the ZIP directories
(and other files, when it's not at the end) that follow it.

Oh and as for Jürgen's comment:
+1 to competing with Microsoft, because any good office suite
naturally will - and should.

Damjan

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Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Jürgen Schmidt]

On 3/26/13 4:00 PM, Damjan Jovanovic wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Fernando Cassia  wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>>
>>> My ordered preference would be 1, 3
>>
>>
>> yeah, great *sarcasm*, let's add another bullet point to a microsoft
>> presentation titled 'how Microsoft Office is better than
>> OpenOfffice.org" OO.o lacks database? check!"
>>
>> My opinion is that maybe Sun put HSQLDB in there to fill in the need for a
>> resident database engine, which in the commercial offering (StarOffice) was
>> filled by Adabas D.
>>
>> One can still read the positive reviews of StarOffice where the database
>> module is praised:
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Microsystems-0614647643195-StarOffice-7/dp/BDG2N4
>>
>> 
>> * StarOffice Adabas (database application) is included (getting MS Access
>> requires buying MS Office Pro) and is easier to use than MS Access. Adabas
>> integrates with other StarOffice apps so, for instance, users can easily
>> create mail merge documents.
>> ///
>>
>> So, if HSQLDB is not up to par, maybe the realistic solution is to find a
>> database engine lightweight and powerful enough to take the role that
>> Adabas D had in StarOffice?.
>>
>> FC
>> PS: I read this whole thread as 'we don't want to maintain this code, since
>> we don't understand it, and we fear it's buggy'. But the solution in any
>> case is replacing the database module for another, or improving the
>> existing code, not making excuses for saying 'people don't use databases
>> after all so it should be gone'.
> 
> +1
> 
> Again I ask: where are the Bugzilla bugs?
> 
> A quick search finds a corruption bug
> (https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=55496) which states:
> "While it's difficult to fix this with our current approach, where the data is
> just some sub-streams in a ZIP package, we need to somehow address this. I 
> fear
> this might in fact only be possible with a package format (replacing the ZIP
> package format for this purpose) which allows O(1) random access to all of its
> parts."
> 
> If that's the only problem, I don't think the author of that message
> realized that there is a way to get O(1) random access to the contents
> of a zipped file: ZIP files allow each archived file to use its own
> compression type, including no compression. HSQLDB could write
> directly to its uncompressed byte range in the ZIP file, with a thin
> shim checking for when it attempts to write beyond the end of this
> range (ie. grow the database), and then it could expand the ZIP file
> to accommodate it. With a bit of cleverness, this could even be done
> in-place, by keeping the HSQL database at the end of the ZIP file
> (when possible), and just moving up and updating the ZIP directories
> (and other files, when it's not at the end) that follow it.
> 
> Oh and as for Jürgen's comment:
> +1 to competing with Microsoft, because any good office suite
> naturally will - and should.

I stopped dreaming at least for this specific topic and be more
realistic ;-)

Juergen


> 
> Damjan
> 
> -
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Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Alexandro Colorado]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:

> On 3/26/13 3:35 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> >
> >> My ordered preference would be 1, 3
> >
> >
> > yeah, great *sarcasm*, let's add another bullet point to a microsoft
> > presentation titled 'how Microsoft Office is better than
> > OpenOfffice.org" OO.o lacks database? check!"
>
> I don't see any sarcasm here but a valid order to address this problem.
>
> Do we really want compete with MS? Or do we want provide an open source
> and open standard based office productivity suite that can do most of
> the daily tasks of common users of such an office suite? I personally
> think we want the second and want help people who are open minded to
> solve their problems first and want to save money for other things.
>

I am amazed how you select your own questions and then answer them as if we
have to choose one or the other. I think we want to compete with microsoft,
we have done it for years. I dont think we want to stop competing with
microsoft. That's why many users ask about us developing a mobile/cloud
offering. Because they want to see a strong open source competition to the
office suite.

If we wanted the second, then Calligra would be by far more advanced to us,
since they have a more developed suite with many more components that what
we currently ship. Kexi is by far more developed than Base, and is somewhat
more flexible than Base using SQLite as the embeded DB and MySQL as part of
the QtDB module. Let alone other modules like Kivio (which users have also
asked for a Visio-like module).



>
> If MS is better in certain areas users have to ask if they need it and
> if they depend on the feature. In case of companies it always possible
> to have a mixed deployment of 95% OpenOffice and 5% percent MS Office or
> something like that.
>
> We are a very good and high quality alternative but not always a 1:1
> replacement. It really depends what you have to do. I personally can
> live perfectly with OpenOffice.
>
> >
> > My opinion is that maybe Sun put HSQLDB in there to fill in the need for
> a
> > resident database engine, which in the commercial offering (StarOffice)
> was
> > filled by Adabas D.
> >
> > One can still read the positive reviews of StarOffice where the database
> > module is praised:
> >
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Microsystems-0614647643195-StarOffice-7/dp/BDG2N4
> >
> > 
> > * StarOffice Adabas (database application) is included (getting MS Access
> > requires buying MS Office Pro) and is easier to use than MS Access.
> Adabas
> > integrates with other StarOffice apps so, for instance, users can easily
> > create mail merge documents.
> > ///
> >
> > So, if HSQLDB is not up to par, maybe the realistic solution is to find a
> > database engine lightweight and powerful enough to take the role that
> > Adabas D had in StarOffice?.
>

I would think SQLite is powerful enough to handle this job, however I am
not sure how license compatible is o if it gets the same treatment as
python and other components shipped with the suite.


> >
> > FC
> > PS: I read this whole thread as 'we don't want to maintain this code,
> since
> > we don't understand it, and we fear it's buggy'. But the solution in any
> > case is replacing the database module for another, or improving the
> > existing code, not making excuses for saying 'people don't use databases
> > after all so it should be gone'.
>

Actually spreadsheets shouldnt be used as database, so there is a strong
need to easily migrate those huge spreadsheets into a database format that
makes it more reliable. It has got so bad that MS decided to create a SQL
language within Excel called DAO.

It bares the question if Base should change to have a more spreadsheet
centric aproach, meaning that we should include formulas into Base.


> >
>
> nobody said we don't want, the key point that nobody worked on it,
> nobody maintains it, does improvements etc. We see of course demand for
> it but on the other hand we also see that it makes only sense with some
> degree of quality. Everything else can be more damaging for the project
> at all.
> I think it is not so hard to understand that a project driven by
> volunteers need volunteers for the certain areas or code get
> unmaintained, unstable, buggy over time or lacks for certain features
> and improvements ...
>
> Juergen
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Alexandro Colorado
Apache OpenOffice Contributor
http://es.openoffice.org

Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Jürgen Schmidt]

On 3/26/13 5:34 PM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> 
>> On 3/26/13 3:35 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>>>
 My ordered preference would be 1, 3
>>>
>>>
>>> yeah, great *sarcasm*, let's add another bullet point to a microsoft
>>> presentation titled 'how Microsoft Office is better than
>>> OpenOfffice.org" OO.o lacks database? check!"
>>
>> I don't see any sarcasm here but a valid order to address this problem.
>>
>> Do we really want compete with MS? Or do we want provide an open source
>> and open standard based office productivity suite that can do most of
>> the daily tasks of common users of such an office suite? I personally
>> think we want the second and want help people who are open minded to
>> solve their problems first and want to save money for other things.
>>
> 
> I am amazed how you select your own questions and then answer them as if we
> have to choose one or the other. I think we want to compete with microsoft,
> we have done it for years. I dont think we want to stop competing with
> microsoft. That's why many users ask about us developing a mobile/cloud
> offering. Because they want to see a strong open source competition to the
> office suite.

Well my main point is to lower the expectation and focus on what is
possible. Sure everybody wants a free alternative to MS and we have
shown that we can be a good alternative and can compete in certain areas.

If you go to somebody and say hey use OpenOffice it is a replacement for
MS Office but for free. The expectation is high. But if you ask first
what do you have to do with an office suite and have you tried
OpenOffice? It can probably do what you need and it is an open source
and open standard based office suite where you don't have to pay any
license fee. ...

We will of course compete indirectly but I would set the expectation
differently.

> 
> If we wanted the second, then Calligra would be by far more advanced to us,
> since they have a more developed suite with many more components that what
> we currently ship. Kexi is by far more developed than Base, and is somewhat
> more flexible than Base using SQLite as the embeded DB and MySQL as part of
> the QtDB module. Let alone other modules like Kivio (which users have also
> asked for a Visio-like module).

I don't get your point here. I don't know Calligra in detail but know
that it works well for certain users to fulfill their tasks. Perfect
they are happy with it and that's fine.

I am open to support anybody who is interested to work on a new
application or whatever feature is wanted and where we see demand.

But all this discussion come back to the question who will do the work?

Drawing big pictures of what we need is easy but not enough.

Juergen

> 
> 
> 
>>
>> If MS is better in certain areas users have to ask if they need it and
>> if they depend on the feature. In case of companies it always possible
>> to have a mixed deployment of 95% OpenOffice and 5% percent MS Office or
>> something like that.
>>
>> We are a very good and high quality alternative but not always a 1:1
>> replacement. It really depends what you have to do. I personally can
>> live perfectly with OpenOffice.
>>
>>>
>>> My opinion is that maybe Sun put HSQLDB in there to fill in the need for
>> a
>>> resident database engine, which in the commercial offering (StarOffice)
>> was
>>> filled by Adabas D.
>>>
>>> One can still read the positive reviews of StarOffice where the database
>>> module is praised:
>>>
>>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Microsystems-0614647643195-StarOffice-7/dp/BDG2N4
>>>
>>> 
>>> * StarOffice Adabas (database application) is included (getting MS Access
>>> requires buying MS Office Pro) and is easier to use than MS Access.
>> Adabas
>>> integrates with other StarOffice apps so, for instance, users can easily
>>> create mail merge documents.
>>> ///
>>>
>>> So, if HSQLDB is not up to par, maybe the realistic solution is to find a
>>> database engine lightweight and powerful enough to take the role that
>>> Adabas D had in StarOffice?.
>>
> 
> I would think SQLite is powerful enough to handle this job, however I am
> not sure how license compatible is o if it gets the same treatment as
> python and other components shipped with the suite.
> 
> 
>>>
>>> FC
>>> PS: I read this whole thread as 'we don't want to maintain this code,
>> since
>>> we don't understand it, and we fear it's buggy'. But the solution in any
>>> case is replacing the database module for another, or improving the
>>> existing code, not making excuses for saying 'people don't use databases
>>> after all so it should be gone'.
>>
> 
> Actually spreadsheets shouldnt be used as database, so there is a strong
> need to easily migrate those huge spreadsheets into a database format that
> makes it more reliable. It has got so bad that MS decided to create a SQL
> language within Excel called DAO.
> 
> It bare

Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Kay Schenk]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Ariel Constenla-Haile
wrote:

> Hi Kay,
>
> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 03:58:06PM -0700, Kay Schenk wrote:
> > Well no doubt this may start a rather heated discussion.
>
> One of my favorites quotes about Base is from Andreas Säger (villeroy on
> the forums):
>
> "The difference between MS Access and Base amounts to several millions of
> Dollars and more than one decade of development time.
>
> Once you got used to MS Access, it is rather unlikely that you will ever
> be able to work with any other set of database utilities.
>
> I wish the AOO team had the balls to remove all the experimental trash
> while keeping bare important database connectivity for the pros.


Well I think we have "the balls" but we need to discuss this. I agree that
keeping the connectivity, the front-end portion, is vital, it's the
embedded DB that I am questioning.

Since
> 2006 the whole concept of Base with the embedded HSQLDB and wizards is
> proven to be completely wrong, wrong, wrong."
>
> http://markmail.org/message/izhtpii5li57lnjn
>
> > I don't really know who the author is, but, I too, had been giving this a
> > great deal of thought. Does a user know what any of this really means,
> for
> > example. And, including an embedded DB like HSQL puts added
> responsibility
> > for that embedded DB on this project.  What if Base were  strictly  a
> > front-end?
> >
> > So, does anyone have any further insights into how many users, if any,
> > directly use Base to create and use their own individual DBs as opposed
> to
> > using the "front-end" capabilities?
>
> This is hard too guess. The majority of AOO users are Windows users, so
> you can asume that the "average user" that tries Base with a MS Office
> background, is looking for something like MS Access. I guess this was
> what drove Sun to create the ODB file with embedded db inside. With such
> an expectation, no wonder this average user gets frustrated with Base.
>
>
> For the whole topic, though it might be interesting to discuss it, IMHO
> it is completely pointless: look at the history in
>
> trunk/main/connectivity
> trunk/main/dbaccess
> trunk/main/reportdesign
> trunk/main/reportbuilder
>
> if there is no one to maintain the code, it will end up being dead code,
> so it's not a matter of "having the balls" (at least not *just* this);
> it's a matter of knowing the code, or willing to learn it and work on it
> (be it for removing Base embedded completely, or for fixing Base bugs,
> or developing Base features).
>
> Many mails can be written discussing dropping embedded HSQLDB engine,
> but at the end who will do this?
>
> Given that the not-so-difficult bug for building with Java 7 (it has
> even the explanation from the HSQLDB developer on the bug, telling how
> to fix it) didn't find someone to take care of him, removing HSQLDB
> seems something unrealistic. Just let it die.
>
>
> Regards
> --
> Ariel Constenla-Haile
> La Plata, Argentina
>



-- 

MzK

"Achieving happiness requires the right combination of Zen and Zin."

Re: w7snap build error

[Andrew Rist]

On 3/26/2013 12:40 AM, Herbert Dürr wrote:

On 2013/03/26 8:23 AM, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote:

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:08:38PM +0100, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:

I have committed the suggested patch from Ariel.  Herbert was so kind
to trigger the buildbot.


It seems this doesn't fix anything:
http://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/buildlogs/winsnap/main/officecfg/wntmsci12.pro/misc/logs/registry.data.org.openoffice.Office.UI.txt 



Please note that this is an old log as build #41 on aoo-w7snap didn't 
even make it to the "upload" step, so the old logs were never 
overwritten. Now why the buildbot stopped and timed out after 23h is a 
mystery to me too. Someone with direct access into that machine should 
have a look at the machines log files.


We do have a problem on the windows build where sometimes we get a hung 
process which stays around after the build is done.  If causes a failure 
on the original flow and an exception on the ensuing flows.  Generally, 
I watch for it and clean it up.  I think the --delete you added to the 
snap flow made this a bit worse, as we now have 2 flows that run 8-10 
hours happening on Sunday night.  I'll move the weekly cleanout of the 
standard win flow to Sat.


A.



Herbert

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Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Kay Schenk]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Alexandro Colorado  wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Jürgen Schmidt  >wrote:
>
> > On 3/26/13 3:35 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> > >
> > >> My ordered preference would be 1, 3
> > >
> > >
> > > yeah, great *sarcasm*, let's add another bullet point to a microsoft
> > > presentation titled 'how Microsoft Office is better than
> > > OpenOfffice.org" OO.o lacks database? check!"
> >
> > I don't see any sarcasm here but a valid order to address this problem.
> >
> > Do we really want compete with MS? Or do we want provide an open source
> > and open standard based office productivity suite that can do most of
> > the daily tasks of common users of such an office suite? I personally
> > think we want the second and want help people who are open minded to
> > solve their problems first and want to save money for other things.
> >
>
> I am amazed how you select your own questions and then answer them as if we
> have to choose one or the other. I think we want to compete with microsoft,
> we have done it for years. I dont think we want to stop competing with
> microsoft. That's why many users ask about us developing a mobile/cloud
> offering. Because they want to see a strong open source competition to the
> office suite.
>
> If we wanted the second, then Calligra would be by far more advanced to us,
> since they have a more developed suite with many more components that what
> we currently ship. Kexi is by far more developed than Base, and is somewhat
> more flexible than Base using SQLite as the embeded DB and MySQL as part of
> the QtDB module. Let alone other modules like Kivio (which users have also
> asked for a Visio-like module).
>
>
>
> >
> > If MS is better in certain areas users have to ask if they need it and
> > if they depend on the feature. In case of companies it always possible
> > to have a mixed deployment of 95% OpenOffice and 5% percent MS Office or
> > something like that.
> >
> > We are a very good and high quality alternative but not always a 1:1
> > replacement. It really depends what you have to do. I personally can
> > live perfectly with OpenOffice.
> >
> > >
> > > My opinion is that maybe Sun put HSQLDB in there to fill in the need
> for
> > a
> > > resident database engine, which in the commercial offering (StarOffice)
> > was
> > > filled by Adabas D.
> > >
> > > One can still read the positive reviews of StarOffice where the
> database
> > > module is praised:
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Microsystems-0614647643195-StarOffice-7/dp/BDG2N4
> > >
> > > 
> > > * StarOffice Adabas (database application) is included (getting MS
> Access
> > > requires buying MS Office Pro) and is easier to use than MS Access.
> > Adabas
> > > integrates with other StarOffice apps so, for instance, users can
> easily
> > > create mail merge documents.
> > > ///
> > >
> > > So, if HSQLDB is not up to par, maybe the realistic solution is to
> find a
> > > database engine lightweight and powerful enough to take the role that
> > > Adabas D had in StarOffice?.
> >
>
> I would think SQLite is powerful enough to handle this job, however I am
> not sure how license compatible is o if it gets the same treatment as
> python and other components shipped with the suite.
>
>
> > >
> > > FC
> > > PS: I read this whole thread as 'we don't want to maintain this code,
> > since
> > > we don't understand it, and we fear it's buggy'. But the solution in
> any
> > > case is replacing the database module for another, or improving the
> > > existing code, not making excuses for saying 'people don't use
> databases
> > > after all so it should be gone'.
> >
>
> Actually spreadsheets shouldnt be used as database, so there is a strong
> need to easily migrate those huge spreadsheets into a database format that
> makes it more reliable. It has got so bad that MS decided to create a SQL
> language within Excel called DAO.
>
> It bares the question if Base should change to have a more spreadsheet
> centric aproach, meaning that we should include formulas into Base.
>
>
> As a quick reply to the spreadsheet comment. Already, there exist DB
functions in Calc, and Base can import spreadsheets into its front-end if
you will.

We are living in a far, far different world than  when StarOffice was first
introduced. The database world, who creates them, who maintains them is
quite different.

I brought this up to suggest that the focus of Base be changed, not
eliminated entirely.  Maintaining/developing the connectivity pieces to
various forms of databases is probably manageable. A full-blown embedded DB
-- maybe not.  What are the consequences of a full-blown embedded DB to
both developers and end users?

We do need to focus on preserving the quality of the product -- in total.

> >
> >
> > nobody said we don't want, the key point that nobody worked on it,
> > nobody maintains it, does improvements etc. We see of cour

Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[janI]

On 26 March 2013 18:16, Kay Schenk  wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Alexandro Colorado  wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Jürgen Schmidt  > >wrote:
> >
> > > On 3/26/13 3:35 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Rob Weir 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> My ordered preference would be 1, 3
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > yeah, great *sarcasm*, let's add another bullet point to a microsoft
> > > > presentation titled 'how Microsoft Office is better than
> > > > OpenOfffice.org" OO.o lacks database? check!"
> > >
> > > I don't see any sarcasm here but a valid order to address this problem.
> > >
> > > Do we really want compete with MS? Or do we want provide an open source
> > > and open standard based office productivity suite that can do most of
> > > the daily tasks of common users of such an office suite? I personally
> > > think we want the second and want help people who are open minded to
> > > solve their problems first and want to save money for other things.
> > >
> >
> > I am amazed how you select your own questions and then answer them as if
> we
> > have to choose one or the other. I think we want to compete with
> microsoft,
> > we have done it for years. I dont think we want to stop competing with
> > microsoft. That's why many users ask about us developing a mobile/cloud
> > offering. Because they want to see a strong open source competition to
> the
> > office suite.
> >
> > If we wanted the second, then Calligra would be by far more advanced to
> us,
> > since they have a more developed suite with many more components that
> what
> > we currently ship. Kexi is by far more developed than Base, and is
> somewhat
> > more flexible than Base using SQLite as the embeded DB and MySQL as part
> of
> > the QtDB module. Let alone other modules like Kivio (which users have
> also
> > asked for a Visio-like module).
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > If MS is better in certain areas users have to ask if they need it and
> > > if they depend on the feature. In case of companies it always possible
> > > to have a mixed deployment of 95% OpenOffice and 5% percent MS Office
> or
> > > something like that.
> > >
> > > We are a very good and high quality alternative but not always a 1:1
> > > replacement. It really depends what you have to do. I personally can
> > > live perfectly with OpenOffice.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > My opinion is that maybe Sun put HSQLDB in there to fill in the need
> > for
> > > a
> > > > resident database engine, which in the commercial offering
> (StarOffice)
> > > was
> > > > filled by Adabas D.
> > > >
> > > > One can still read the positive reviews of StarOffice where the
> > database
> > > > module is praised:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Microsystems-0614647643195-StarOffice-7/dp/BDG2N4
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > * StarOffice Adabas (database application) is included (getting MS
> > Access
> > > > requires buying MS Office Pro) and is easier to use than MS Access.
> > > Adabas
> > > > integrates with other StarOffice apps so, for instance, users can
> > easily
> > > > create mail merge documents.
> > > > ///
> > > >
> > > > So, if HSQLDB is not up to par, maybe the realistic solution is to
> > find a
> > > > database engine lightweight and powerful enough to take the role that
> > > > Adabas D had in StarOffice?.
> > >
> >
> > I would think SQLite is powerful enough to handle this job, however I am
> > not sure how license compatible is o if it gets the same treatment as
> > python and other components shipped with the suite.
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > FC
> > > > PS: I read this whole thread as 'we don't want to maintain this code,
> > > since
> > > > we don't understand it, and we fear it's buggy'. But the solution in
> > any
> > > > case is replacing the database module for another, or improving the
> > > > existing code, not making excuses for saying 'people don't use
> > databases
> > > > after all so it should be gone'.
> > >
> >
> > Actually spreadsheets shouldnt be used as database, so there is a strong
> > need to easily migrate those huge spreadsheets into a database format
> that
> > makes it more reliable. It has got so bad that MS decided to create a SQL
> > language within Excel called DAO.
> >
> > It bares the question if Base should change to have a more spreadsheet
> > centric aproach, meaning that we should include formulas into Base.
> >
> >
> > As a quick reply to the spreadsheet comment. Already, there exist DB
> functions in Calc, and Base can import spreadsheets into its front-end if
> you will.
>
> We are living in a far, far different world than  when StarOffice was first
> introduced. The database world, who creates them, who maintains them is
> quite different.
>
> I brought this up to suggest that the focus of Base be changed, not
> eliminated entirely.  Maintaining/developing the connectivity pieces to
> various forms of databases is probably manageable. A full-blown embedded DB
> -- maybe not.

RE: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I support the 1, 3, 2 prioritization.

With regard to the first item (1) below, Microsoft Office 2013 Access is now 
provided with the Office 365 Home Premium subscription and all Office 365 
Business subscriptions that include the current (now 2013) Microsoft Office 
desktop applications.  

With regard to the prioritization, an alternative to (2) is to spin Base out as 
a distinct companion application to the Apache OpenOffice distro (thereby 
becoming another approach to (2)).  It could still be supportive of ODF Text 
and Spreadsheet formats and ODF-supporting applications for report viewing, 
etc.  Being more loosely-coupled might be preferable for the kind of 
refactoring and technical-debt forgiveness that is apparently called for.  It 
would also satisfy preferences for greater-modularity.  It would also simplify 
separate development of mobile-scale and cloud-based apps.

- Dennis

PS: I suspect that the Access 2007-2013 .accdb format may be important to 
support if one wants to provide any sort of interop parity.  .mdb might be 
important as well.  

TL;DR:

The page of screen shots that Rob linked in a post about Splashscreens includes 
all of the desktop apps that are part of both Office 365 Home Premium and 
Office 365 Business subscription versions.  The screen with the initial 
templates for creating new Access databases includes both external and desktop 
cases for each template style.  (The matching desktop versions are scrolled off 
the bottom in the screenshot.)  

With Office 365 Small Business Premium, there are two available (cloud) 
Sharepoint locations available by default (one personal, one team) for creating 
external databases.  Desktop databases can be on shared file systems.  I just 
tried that out with the Desktop Issue Tracker creation wizard.  I was able to 
create one in my SkyDrive-synchronized desktop directory also.

For the record, also included, beside an allowance for installation on up to 5 
devices, are automatically synchronized settings amond the devices and Office 
on Demand (a way to install over the internet on another computer temporarily). 
 Also included in all of those are Outlook, OneNote, and Publisher.  The Home 
Premium includes Skype and SkyDrive bonuses, whereas the Business subscriptions 
provide Lync, a cloud Exchange service, and SkyDrive Pro (a cloud Sharepoint 
Service).

Visio and Project are still extra.  Business plans have a subscription 
supplement that provides server space for sharing team projects.  I don't know 
about any Visio subscription supplement.

These simplified, expanded arrangements are apparently a consequence of the 
wonderful marginal-cost benefits of an internet-based subscription and 
provisioning system for commodity software and services. 

There are a variety of student plans with differing features.  Some require 
confirmed student standing. 

-Original Message-
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robw...@apache.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 06:53
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[ ... ]

Some other interesting facts, most of which we're already familiar with:

1) Microsoft doesn't include Access in their base Office packages.  So
on the one hand this means that most Office users don't use a
database, or they do lightweight database work in their spreadsheet.
On the other hand, the fact that OpenOffice has a database included is
a distinguishing feature of OpenOffice.

[ ... ]

So the future is likely going to look like one of the following:

1) We encourage a critical mass of volunteers interested in
maintaining, improving, testing, documenting, supporting, etc., Base.
As we know achieving critical mass is made more difficult by the
senseless forking of the project, which hurts LibreOffice Base users
as well.

2) We continue as-is, with a gradual degradation in stability, until
an incompatible OS change, or a security flaw comes along and
administers the coup de grâce.

3) We drop Base before it gets to the point where it harms the
reputation of the project.

My ordered preference would be 1, 3, 2.

-Rob

>
>
> --
> 
> MzK
>
> "Achieving happiness requires the right combination of Zen and Zin."

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Re: annoying input field popup

[Hagar Delest]

Adding OP in CC since not subscribed.

Have a look at: https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=33737

As a courtesy I have sent a copy of this reply to you as well as to the mailing list. Do 
Not reply to me personally but just to the list at  or 
 - replies to my personal email address will be ignored.

Since you are not subscribed to this list you may not see all the replies to 
your query.
To subscribe Apache OpenOffice mailing lists go to
http://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html
NB: this is more a message for the users mailing list than for the devs.

For user support you can also use The OpenOffice.org Community Forum
http://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/

Regards,
Hagar


Le 26/03/2013 02:17, chengjh a écrit :


Hi BK,

Could you please provide a detail use case to describe what's your problem?
Of course, it is better based on a sample..Thus, the community can
understand correctly,and then do something helpful for you. Thanks.

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 6:17 AM, B K  wrote:


i've been using openoffice for over a year and it was fine til today.
now no matter what document format i use i'm unable to edit without the
very annoying input field popup.
when i try to backspace to delete a word or letter my cursor changes from
the vertical line to the hand with the finge rpointing.  i've spent all
afternoon looking at your help section and checking on google for support
from other users. so far no luck.
please tell me how to rectify this?
thank you.
bk







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Re: updating Splashscreen

[Hagar Delest]

Le 26/03/2013 15:05, Rob Weir a écrit :

But I think we should align with the user's thinking at this point.
They've launched OpenOffice, presumable *to do a task*.  They are not
researching the license.  They are not looking to find out the list of
OpenOffice contributors.  They have work to do and the splash screen
is only a delay for them.  So I'd keep it simple and focus mainly on
reassuring the user that they are in the right place, i.e., confirm
what app they are loading and that it actually is loading.


+1.
Keep it simple. Any complicated animation (like MSO for example) could make the 
user think that the resource is used for a splash screen he doesn't care about. 
Just load the application, that's all.
However, the progress bar is a good hint to show how the loading is going.

Something that could be improved: the splash screen is a real help for the user 
since he knows that the application is actually loading. It should not 
disappear until the start center or the document is displayed. Today, there is 
a gap and the splash screen disappear before AOO is displayed. What's the 
problem you would say: when there is a problem, the splash screen disappears 
and then nothing... So the user is lost: what happened? This is not that rare 
in the forum. At least if the splash screen is still on display and freezes, it 
clearly tells that there is a problem.

Hagar

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Re: [CODE][PROPOSAL]: AOO 4.0 getting rid of the 3 layer office, part 1

[Andrea Pescetti]

Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote:

If dictionaries were ALv2, for sure AOO would include them, as
Sun/Oracle did (this was something the native-lang asked for long time).
So this is something we use with dictionaries just because we cannot
include them by default.


In the case of dictionaries (which is anyway marginal with respect to 
the current discussion) I actually find that what OpenOffice is doing 
now, i.e., bundling them as extensions, is a good solution.


Development of dictionaries, especially those for spell checking, has 
nothing to do with OpenOffice development, dictionaries are reused 
across multiple projects and have a variety of licenses and 
contributors. So even if all dictionaries were available under ALv2 
(purely theoretical of course!) I would still see benefits in bundling 
them as extensions. I don't recall seeing many community members against 
packaging dictionaries as extensions: for end-users this was surely a 
big improvements over the previous manual installation.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: [CODE][PROPOSAL]: AOO 4.0 getting rid of the 3 layer office, part 1

[Ariel Constenla-Haile]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 11:03:09AM +0100, Andre Fischer wrote:
> >>>IMO it was a non-sense from the beginning to develop these as
> >>>extensions (at least the presentation minimizer and the presenter
> >>>screen, that have no external dependencies).

> >>I disagree and I don't see why this change should be a good thing.
> >>
> >>Being an extension has several advantages:

[...]

> I am not sure what your point is.

I'm not into "making my point", nor having the last word; I already
explained why I think these extensions are no extension at all, and why
shipping them as pre-registered extensions is a bad idea; so I'm not
going to start arguing, at the end I think my approach is good, you'll
think it's not, and this won't change.

As you repeated several times that "you don't get  what my point is",
and I think I was already clear in this mail and the one to Hagar,
I summarize, may be you get it clear: 

These are no extension at all (this meaning that their conception and
realization goes against the notion of an "extension" that allows
developer to extend OpenOffice without having to learn any single line
of source code, nor modify the source code, nor build it), because:

- an extension that requires the extension developer to modify the source
  code is not truly an extension
- an extension that requires to get the whole source tree and set up the
  build environment in order to compile the OXT is not truly an
  extension

The right approach, IMO, would have been at least to make these
extensions buildable with the SDK only, at the time of being developed
the SRB and the MySQL/OOoConn I pointed this out on the dba mailing list
(in particular for C++ extensions, this has the advantage that if linked
against older URE libraries, for a particular OOo version is needed, you
only need to keep a copy of OO and the SDK, not a whole source tree)

That's what I called a "non-sense from the beginning".

My other main opinion is that pre-registered extensions are bad, and
applies to the following as well:

> >>- Easy control over the feature set that is shipped with OpenOffice.
> >>This is something that we use extensively for dictionaries.
> >If dictionaries were ALv2, for sure AOO would include them, as
> >Sun/Oracle did (this was something the native-lang asked for long
> >time).  So this is something we use with dictionaries just because we
> >cannot include them by default.
> 
> No.  If the licenses where different then we would still need a way to
> make the set of included dictionaries configurable.  We might end up
> using pre-bundled extensions for that.  If otherwise dictionaries
> would be integrated into some module, then we would have to build the
> whole office for each language set (a matter of hours) instead of just
> building the installation set (just some minutes).

I was talking about the way Sun/Oracle did it. Not as pre-registered or
bundled extensions, but as packages by their own. I only know about
Linux: the dictionaries were in their own rpm/deb package and you could
choose whether to install it or not (may be on Windows this translated
to select a custom installation, and un/marking the dictionary to be
installed). From a Linux user perspective, this is a regression, and you
are forced to install both the dictionaries and the pre-regs with the
basis core-01 package.

And as for pre-registered extensions and unopkg sync being bad, sorry
for the fallacy of appealing to an authority, but I'm not insane to
think I know more than Stephan:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2012-August/036627.html

> >>- Forces the developer to write clean code that does not use
> >>anything outside the ODK.
> >You must be kidding, "nothing outside the ODK" is not what happened
> >with the Presenter Screen, you know this as you were the one that
> >developed it :)
> 
> No, I am not kidding.  If I look at the makefile of the presenter
> console I see this for linked libraries:
> 
> SHL1STDLIBS=$(CPPUHELPERLIB)\ $(CPPULIB)
> \ $(SALLIB)
> 
> >
> >The work-arounds used to develop the Present Screen only show how
> >badly designed is sometimes the API (I'm talking about the canvas
> >module, a *whole* API module that cannot be used by the API users).
> >IMO this is the proof that this was no clean code that uses only
> >stuff in ODK:
> >http://www.openoffice.org/api/docs/common/ref/com/sun/star/drawing/XPresenterHelper.html
> 
> Again.  I don't see your point.

See above, an extension should not require the extension developer to
study any single line of core code, not modifying it, in order to
achieve the goal of the extension.

> >"This interface is a collection of functions that are necessary to
> >implement larger parts of the presenter screen as extension. The
> >methods of this interface give access to services that can, at the
> >moment, only implemented in the Office core, not in an extension."
> 
> And it goes on like this:
> 
> "With time some, maybe all, methods can moved to other

Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Andrew Douglas Pitonyak]

I like an embedded DB for those times that I desire a small DB for small 
data that is relational.  For larger data sets, the embedded DB is 
insufficient.


I see that you specifically ask about an embedded DB, yet some of the 
answers are related to Base in general.


--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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Re: updating Splashscreen

[Samer Mansour]

I've taken the feedback down, I will follow up on this.

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO4+-+Application+And+Launcher

Agree less is better.

I think there is a better way to recognize contributors such as a hyperlink
in the about screen.  Much like credits, it can be updated between releases
as well.

Samer Mansour
On Mar 26, 2013 6:02 PM, "Hagar Delest"  wrote:

> Le 26/03/2013 15:05, Rob Weir a écrit :
>
>> But I think we should align with the user's thinking at this point.
>> They've launched OpenOffice, presumable *to do a task*.  They are not
>> researching the license.  They are not looking to find out the list of
>> OpenOffice contributors.  They have work to do and the splash screen
>> is only a delay for them.  So I'd keep it simple and focus mainly on
>> reassuring the user that they are in the right place, i.e., confirm
>> what app they are loading and that it actually is loading.
>>
>
> +1.
> Keep it simple. Any complicated animation (like MSO for example) could
> make the user think that the resource is used for a splash screen he
> doesn't care about. Just load the application, that's all.
> However, the progress bar is a good hint to show how the loading is going.
>
> Something that could be improved: the splash screen is a real help for the
> user since he knows that the application is actually loading. It should not
> disappear until the start center or the document is displayed. Today, there
> is a gap and the splash screen disappear before AOO is displayed. What's
> the problem you would say: when there is a problem, the splash screen
> disappears and then nothing... So the user is lost: what happened? This is
> not that rare in the forum. At least if the splash screen is still on
> display and freezes, it clearly tells that there is a problem.
>
> Hagar
>
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>

Re: [UX] Design Exploration - AOO 4.0 Sidebar Specific Content Panel Design

[Xin Li]

Hi all,

The sidebar design proposal for AOO 4.0 has been uploaded to AOO UX wiki：
http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/AOO_UX_Design_Exploration_-_Task_Pane_Content_Panel_-_User_Interface_Design_Proposals#Sidebar_Content_Panel_-_UX_Design_propoals

We have three parts:

1. Overview visual information definition.
   Including the gradient color, the background color, the border line, the
font color, the font size and so on.

2. 27 specific panel design of Sidebar Properties Deck.

3. Controls consistent issues proposal : Contrast 13 controls that will
show both on sidebar and toolbar.

Your comments and feedback are strongly welcomed. Thanks.

2013/3/25 Xin Li 

> Hi Andrea,
>
> Thanks for the feedback.
>
> I agree that icon style need to consistent. But for AOO 4.0 we have no
> time to rebrand the visual style. And both gray and blue colors are exist
> in current AOO icons, so the color of the S(strikethrough) is ok.
>
> Icons style  refer to the whole visual style, we will consider rebrand
> this in the future. Thanks.
>
>
> 2013/3/24 Andrea Pescetti 
>
>> On 22/03/2013 Xin Li wrote:
>> > 1. Icon style of sidebar in AOO 4.0. From UX point of view, to avoid the
>> > usability issues,  we need to make sure the same icon for the same
>> function
>> > in AOO and all the icons have the same visual style. So we need to use
>> AOO
>> > icons in sidebar. For the buttons which did not have AOO icons, we will
>> use
>> > Symphony icons. ...
>> >
>> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/AOO_UX_Design_Exploration_-_Task_Pane_Content_Panel_-_User_Interface_Design_Proposals#Sidebar_Content_Panel_-_UX_Design_propoals
>>
>> I think everything is quite nice, except the contrast between the
>> OpenOffice and the Symphony icons when used side-to-side.
>>
>> Example: in row 1 of
>> http://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/e/ed/4.0_sidebar_panel_list.jpg
>> the B, I and U icons (bold, italic, underlined) are gray, while the S
>> (strikethrough) is blue. Maybe some color tweaking would give better
>> consistency here.
>>
>> Regards,
>>   Andrea.
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Xin Li   李欣
> UX designer
>



-- 
Best regards,
Xin Li   李欣
UX designer

Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Guy Waterval]

Hi Rob,
Hi all,

2013/3/26 Rob Weir 

> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> > Well no doubt this may start a rather heated discussion. I started
> looking
> > into the history of the Base component, who is using it now (looked into
> > Forums, users discussion list), and finally came upon the following FAQ
> > (edited a LOT just recently):
> >
> >[...]
>


> So the future is likely going to look like one of the following:
>
> 1) We encourage a critical mass of volunteers interested in
> maintaining, improving, testing, documenting, supporting, etc., Base.
> As we know achieving critical mass is made more difficult by the
> senseless forking of the project, which hurts LibreOffice Base users
> as well.
>

Why not approach Libo on this question and try to obtain a shared
collaboration on Base ?. After all, they have the same problem. Perhaps
they could agree on this question which should appear as a win win party.
Just an idea.

A+
-- 
gw

>
>

Re: Questions about sidebar feature

[Yi Xuan Liu]

Andre, thanks for your explanation. I'll create test cases according to
these files

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Andre Fischer  wrote:

> On 25.03.2013 08:35, Yi Xuan Liu wrote:
>
>> hi, all:
>>
>> I've noticed that a new sidebar build is available on sidebar wiki. I've
>> tried to use, and found not all sidebar panel is available.
>>
>> Could some one give a list of current available sidebar panel? Then, we
>> could start our test on it.
>>
>
> Hi, thanks for your interest.
>
> You can find information on the Wiki.  Probably most relevant to you will
> be the sections about "Decks and Panels" [1].  It contains a list of all
> decks and panels that are planned to be ready for the 4.0 release.  The
> missing panels are marked with TBD.  These are Alignment, Cell Appearance,
> Number Format, Paragraph, Wrap.  The Text panel exists in the snapshot
> build but is not feature complete.  It is currently being checked in and
> will be available in the next build.
>
> There is also section "Migration of Symphony content panels" [2] and
> "Migration/conversions of AOO dialogs" [3] with more details on migration
> status.
>
> -Andre
>
> [1] 
> http://wiki.openoffice.org/**wiki/Sidebar#Panels_and_Decks
> [2] http://wiki.openoffice.org/**wiki/Sidebar#Migration_of_**
> Symphony_content_panels
> [3] http://wiki.openoffice.org/**wiki/Sidebar#Migration.**
> 2Fconversions_of_AOO_dialogs
>
>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>
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>

Re: questions about Base---do we need an embedded DB?

[Guy Waterval]

Hi Andrew,
Hi all,

2013/3/27 Andrew Douglas Pitonyak 

>
> I like an embedded DB for those times that I desire a small DB for small
> data that is relational.  For larger data sets, the embedded DB is
> insufficient.
>

Indeed, end users and a lot of little structures could take profit of a
little DB easy to use, ie associations, sport clubs, TPE, museums, schools,
restaurants, little hotels, storekeepers, etc. Moreover, you can transform
the weakpoint in a marketing argument : why wearing shoes 45 if my size is
40?

A+
-- 
gw

>
>