Suggestions For The Website
Hi !
I am very glad to join your fantastic community !
As a website developer, i would suggest some changes in the web pages :
o when you link to a paragraph inside the page : about
the target anchor should not contain the title of the paragraph : ABOUT.
Instead it should be empty : ABOUT
why ? Simply because in mozilla the title is highlighted on hover as if it
was a link.
o i was also wondering why don't you indent the tags in the source code :
the source code look a little messy, and its not very pleasant to see.
o all the languages in the bottom of the page should begin with capital
letters (Polski not polski)
In the debian.css stylesheet i suggest the following :
o #serverselect :
. remove top:0; and right:0; ( useless )
o #serverselect p :
. add margin-top:0; to make the display of identical in both explorer and
mozilla
it will be aligned then to top
you can set it to 15px to make it aligned with the logo text.
o h1,h2:
. margin must be set : iexplore and mozilla compatibility
. h1: margin:15px; is nice
. h2: margin:0;margin-top:10px;margin-bottom:5px;
o hr:
. its insufficient to set border-bottom to 0
hr{height:0;border:0;border-bottom:1px solid #ccc;}
to make mozilla and iexplore display it the same way
o #outer>#inner :
. doesn't work in iexplorer
. instead
#footer{border-top: 1px solid #BFC3DC;}
or
#inner{border-bottom: 1px solid #BFC3DC;}
o #serverselect p input
. set padding:0px;
. and replace by
o Some style :
. #inner {font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size: 94%;}
. h1{font-size: 2em;color:#158;}
. h2{font-size: 1.2em;color:#445e66;}
I hope these hints will be useful
If you want other suggestions i will be glad to help you.
thanx in advance
Suggestions For The Website
Richard Atterer replied to my mail that :
>> o when you link to a paragraph inside the page : about
>> the target anchor should not contain the title of the paragraph : > name="about">ABOUT.
>> Instead it should be empty : ABOUT
>> why ? Simply because in mozilla the title is highlighted on hover as if
>> it was a link.
>
>
>This is actually a bug in our CSS which was fixed at one point, but the
>change was reverted later for some reason.
>
>Instead of this:
>
> a:hover { color: #F000FF; }
> a:visited { color: #800080; }
>
>the CSS should be like this:
>
> :link:hover { color: #F000FF; }
> :visited:hover { color: #800080; }
Its not a bug in the css !
should not contain any text ! In fact, it's not a link
and doesn't work as a link or as a tag for text display like text
It should be this way but the html developpers did not change
that !
>
>Hm, lots of different people edit the site, also much of the content is
>generated by various macros/scripts, so there is no good control over
>indentation.
>
You said that the web pages are generated by a wml code. Doesn't that mean that
you can change only few codes to make the proper indentation?
I read on "How is www.debian.org made" the following :
We intend to move on to XHTML, however, so all web editors are strongly
encouraged to write the HTML tags in lowercase, place ending tags where
appropriate, etc., in order to make the transition as smooth as possible.
But why are there still tags in uppercase
Empty tags are written this way or , and you write them and
If you try to save a page in mozilla, and take a look at the saved page source
code, you will see that it is messed up.
Sorry then if i blamed on the fact that the source code is messy :->
If its impossible as you say, please, leave all the lines with no indentation,
so it will look much better !
Please fix these :
http://cgi.debian.org/cgi-bin/redirect.pl";>
Select a server near you
Australia
Austria
Brazil
so they look like that
http://cgi.debian.org/cgi-bin/redirect.pl";>
Select a server near you
Australia
Austria
Brazil
input elements that are hidden should be directly inside the form, not inside
an element of the form
input tag should end with " /" like that
just like and
i suggest to put instead of blank space
>No. This has been discussed before on the list - each word in that area of
>the page is the translation of the respective language name into that
>language. With some languages (e.g. English), languages are always written
>with a capital letter, but not in others.
I think all the languages should be written in capital letters because its much
more clear and easy to pick up a language from the list, just like titles of
songs are written on cd covers.
however, if you follow the mentioned rule, i wanted to say that it is
applicable only if you write each language in separate sentence written in that
language.
but even in Polish, you write 'polski', when you write polski in the beginning
of a sentence, you write it in capitals, isn't it.
And this is a list of languages that are written separated, not in one
sentence, each one is a distinct word,thats why you should write them in upcase.
Well, my first impression when i first saw this list was very negative, just
like if some languages were more important than others. Now i understand, but
the first impreesion on a new visitor is very important, you see.
>Unfortunately Jutta, who has been doing most of the CSS changes lately,
>doesn't test on MSIE at all. :-/
But if i tested it on both of them, why dont you make the necessary changes ?
Besides, you wrote on the "How is www.debian.org made" the following :
How not to help
[Q] I want to put fancy web feature into www.debian.org, may I?
[A] No. We want www.debian.org to be as accessible as possible, so
* no browser specific "extensions".
* no relying on images only. Images may be used to clarify, but the
information on www.debian.org must remain accessible via a text-only web
browser, like lynx.
Well, if a feature like #outer>#inner in the css doesn't work in iexplore,
doesn't it mean that it is a browser specific "extension" ?
The use of #footer{border-top: 1px solid #BFC3DC;} would be then less browser
specific.
However, the navigation bar, with round border is displayed properly only on
mozilla, opera and iexplore display hard edged. I thin this is a very browser
specific feature ! The use of images ( that i found on some pages of the
website like the search page or the lists.debian.org ) would be much better,
the borders are also better shaped.
I Suggest however a more "classical" interface.
Please let me know if you want an example that i prepared for you.
Anyway, i am very glad that i can participate in the development of this
website
Suggestions For The Website
Hi Jutta I found this page "http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801/";, take a look at it, these are the recommendation for xhtml. I found that we can link to a location in a page without the use of Assigning the target paragraph an id with it is better : text text or title of the paragraph what do you think ?
Suggestions For The Website
Hi Sorry if I made you angry. I really appreciate all the efforts that you make to maintain this website, but i was just enthusiastic about this you know. Regards
Re: Suggestions For The Website
Please could you explain why >http://cgi.debian.org/cgi-bin/ redirect.pl"> > > > Select a server near you Is not valid HTML I am sure its valid xhtml, and since you want to smoothly change to xhtml, and follow all the recommendations, whats the problem? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Suggestions For The Website
I agree with you Viktor Separators like · are very aesthetic -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Suggestions For The Website
Jutta Wrage wrote:
> If you suggest changes, please note, that we will not do any changes, that
> make the pages not validate any longer. If IE does not display the HTML
> corectly, please submit a bug report to the browser manufacturer.
I completely agree with you, i don't even use IE.
>I think that the current solution is typographically a mess. It's not just
>the mixed upper and lower cased words, it's the bulk list of words written
>in different alphabets.
>
Here is the reply of Richard Atterrer
>No. This has been discussed before on the list - each word in that area of
>the page is the translation of the respective language name into that
>language. With some languages (e.g. English), languages are always written
>with a capital letter, but not in others.
>
For me it sounds logical, but i am still not convinced by the usage of capital
letters for certain languages.
> Well, if a feature like #outer>#inner in the css doesn't work in iexplore,
> doesn't it mean that it is a browser specific "extension" ?
>
> No. It is valid CSS and any browser should know, what it means. If not, we
> can find another valid way, maybe.
Well i suggested for that simply to use :
#footer{border-top: 1px solid #BFC3DC;}
I think it is funny to discuss such things, don't you agree ? Please tell me if
i should change the way i write, thanks :-)
Re: Suggestions For The Website
Jutta Wrage wrote: >> Is not valid HTML >> I am sure its valid xhtml, and since you want to smoothly change to xhtml, >> and follow all the recommendations, whats the problem? > > > Can you please point us to the source for that information? "I am sure" is > not enough. The XHTML definition is mostly covered by the HTML 4 rec. THis > means that differences are liste in xthml1 rec and forms are not listed > there as ther is not difference between both, if you do not include xml. > Here is the source of information, that i previously mentioned : http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801/ Here is why i am sure its valid xhtml: ( from the previously mentioned page ) > 4. Differences with HTML 4 > > This section is informative. > > Due to the fact that XHTML is an XML application, certain practices that were > perfectly legal in SGML-based HTML 4 [HTML4] must be changed. > > (...) > > 4.2. Element and attribute names must be in lower case > > XHTML documents must use lower case for all HTML element and attribute names. > This difference is necessary because XML is case-sensitive e.g. and > are different tags. > > 4.3. For non-empty elements, end tags are required > > In SGML-based HTML 4 certain elements were permitted to omit the end tag; > with the elements that followed implying closure. XML does not allow end tags > to be omitted. All elements other than those declared in the DTD as EMPTY > must have an end tag. Elements that are declared in the DTD as EMPTY can have > an end tag or can use empty element shorthand (see Empty Elements). > > CORRECT: terminated elements > here is a paragraph.here is another paragraph. > INCORRECT: unterminated elements > here is a paragraph.here is another paragraph. > > (...) > > 4.6. Empty Elements > > Empty elements must either have an end tag or the start tag must end with />. > For instance, or . See HTML Compatibility Guidelines for > information on ways to ensure this is backward compatible with HTML 4 user > agents. > > CORRECT: terminated empty elements > > > INCORRECT: unterminated empty elements > > > (...) > > 4.10. The elements with 'id' and 'name' attributes > > HTML 4 defined the name attribute for the elements a, applet, form, frame, > iframe, img, and map. HTML 4 also introduced the id attribute. Both of these > attributes are designed to be used as fragment identifiers. > > In XML, fragment identifiers are of type ID, and there can only be a single > attribute of type ID per element. Therefore, in XHTML 1.0 the id attribute is > defined to be of type ID. In order to ensure that XHTML 1.0 documents are > well-structured XML documents, XHTML 1.0 documents MUST use the id attribute > when defining fragment identifiers on the elements listed above. See the HTML > Compatibility Guidelines for information on ensuring such anchors are > backward compatible when serving XHTML documents as media type text/html. > > Note that in XHTML 1.0, the name attribute of these elements is formally > deprecated, and will be removed in a subsequent version of XHTML. Jutta also wrote : > The pages are deliverd as text/html and have HTML in page head. That means, > the _must_ be _valid_ HTML 4.01. > > And about xhtml validation using validator.w3.org, please read the note > there. You have to use an xml validator to validate xhtml. > > The debian pages have currently > > * Upper case tags on many pages > * missing end tags, where that is not allowed when moving xhtml > > They are nearly all valid and display fine in browsers. If there really is > something wrong in displaying we will change that if we can reproduce it and > there is a solution. Having all or nearly all pages out of more than 22,000 > is really a hard job, but we got it. And we won't like to change that. > > So please tell me any reason why we should use something, that make the > pages invalid? I have spend hundreds of hours to make them all valid last > year. And all the others helped, to get the breakthrough moving from > transitional to strict with CSS. > These empty tags , or are compatible with html4 as it is written in the previous source : > C. HTML Compatibility Guidelines > > (...) > > C.2. Empty Elements > > Include a space before the trailing / and > of empty elements, e.g. , > and . Also, use the minimized tag > syntax for empty elements, e.g. , as the alternative syntax > allowed by XML gives uncertain results in many existing user agents. > > C.3. Element Minimization and Empty Element Content > Given an empty instance of an element whose content model is not EMPTY (for > example, an empty title or paragraph) do not use the minimized form (e.g. use > and not ). > > (...) > > C.7. The lang and xml:lang Attributes > Use both the lang and xml:lang attributes when specifying the language of an > element. The value of the xml:lang attribute takes precedence. that is why i am sure it is xhtml compatible; however the changes i ta
