Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by peterk: webwml/swedish/distrib archive.wml

[Peter Karlsson]

Josip Rodin:

> Please note that the proper name of a release doesn't have a capital
> letter.

Proper names have capital letters, so I am always writing the release
names with upper-case letters, and fixing those that I have missed
earlier.

BTW, I also believe the usage of the release names without initial
capital is incorrect in the English pages.

> Of course, if Swedish doesn't allow such things, fine, but that begs
> the question, why wasn't this change done earlier...

It's a gradual change, I've been changing the pages I find the old
usage (lower-case initial letter) since quite a while back (not always
noting it in the log). Same as with changing " into ” and -- into
– on pages. I don't want to do a mass-commit just because of it,
so I do it while doing other changes.

-- 
\\//
Peter - http://www.softwolves.pp.se/
  I do not read or respond to mail with HTML attachments.

My mess under international/l10n

[Martin Quinson]

Hello,

I am really sorry for the mess I introduced in international/l10n yesterday.
The goal of the change was to split the translated parts into perfectly
translated ones (100%), and underway ones (less than that).

The problem is that I did remove the translated.inc and introduced ok.inc
and todo.inc. It results that the translations where unable to build until
the tmpl.src was updated to reflect this renaming.

>From bad to worst, I did now change all translations to include those two
files instead of the old one. It was impossible to reput the translation.inc
file in the CVS since its content is not generated anymore, unfortunately.

I now hope that I did not mess any encoding. I'm quite confident with most
languages, since they use latin encoding as french (to which I'm used), but
I also had to change the japaneese files. I did use emacs for the
modification, and I guess it will be ok, but could someone double-check ?
The maybe offending pages are:
http://www.debian.org/intl/l10n/po/ja.ja.html
http://www.debian.org/intl/l10n/templates/ja.ja.html
http://www.debian.org/intl/l10n/po-debconf/ja.ja.html

You'll now that the page are rebuild after my changes from the fact that
fully translated packages are separated from the not fully translated ones. 

Some of you may think that as long as I don't look able to change those
pages without introducing bugs, I should only refrain myself to do any
change. But I was one of the authors of those pages, so I guess that if I
want something to happen, I have to act, and not only open bug reports.

Again, I am sorry about that mess, and I'll try to not mess my future
changes in that directory. 

Another change was the display of the name of translators (without address)
when available (ie, po and po-debconf), and the name of the list. It should
have no impact on translations (beside 2 new strings in l10n.po).


I now plan do modify the build phase so that the link to other languages at
the end of all pages works. But it will need more time to be done right, and
is not planned for the next month, I guess.

I also plan to give the ability to add comments to each file to team
members. I will use data/team. 822-formated databases, and allow
a field
Comment-(po|po-debconf|templates)-:
in it. It will constitute a new row in the tables afterward. Or a little
link will be added to the table, pointing to a new page with all details.
I'm not sure how to display it yet, so I'll also refrain myself for now.
Thanks for patience, Mt.

A smaller change would be to remove the list of the detailled page about po,
and add a [1] pointing to the list of mailing lists written under the table.
The better way may be to split the table depending on the mailing list,
since it denotes the team doing this translation.

Thanks for your patience, Mt.

-- 
Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes.

Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by peterk: webwml/swedish/distrib archive.wml

[Colin Watson]

On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 10:36:49AM +0200, Peter Karlsson wrote:
> Josip Rodin:
> > Please note that the proper name of a release doesn't have a capital
> > letter.
> 
> Proper names have capital letters, so I am always writing the release
> names with upper-case letters, and fixing those that I have missed
> earlier.
> 
> BTW, I also believe the usage of the release names without initial
> capital is incorrect in the English pages.

It's not conventional English grammar, but it's universal usage and
correct in context. Unix is case-sensitive. :)

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by peterk: webwml/swedish/distrib archive.wml

[Gerfried Fuchs]

* Peter Karlsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-09-09 10:36]:
> BTW, I also believe the usage of the release names without initial
> capital is incorrect in the English pages.

 So, you write the release names with initial capital in your
sources.list, too?

 So long,
Alfie
-- 
 Von uns allen bleibt nur Asche. Nur die DWN wird man in hundert Jahren
  noch nachlesen koennen.


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Re: My mess under international/l10n

[Gerfried Fuchs]

* Martin Quinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-09-09 10:58]:
> I am really sorry for the mess I introduced in international/l10n yesterday.
> The goal of the change was to split the translated parts into perfectly
> translated ones (100%), and underway ones (less than that).

 Good idea, IMHO.  It is always a good idea to seperate things on which
no further work is needed from those who don't need further work.

> Some of you may think that as long as I don't look able to change those
> pages without introducing bugs, I should only refrain myself to do any
> change. But I was one of the authors of those pages, so I guess that if I
> want something to happen, I have to act, and not only open bug reports.

 Right. And always remember: We are only human. Bugs happen, and they
are good to learn from.

 There is just one question still open that I tried to get an answer to:
What are those lines preceeded with ;;; in the various templ.src files?
Are they meant as comment (why wasn't wml comment # used, then!), or are
they meant as something different and should be translated?

 Please elaborate, I don't know what to do with the translation without
knowing this.

 Thanks,
Alfie
-- 
"Kaum wird das Wetter schlechter und die Tage kürzer, fallen die
Newbies über das Netz her wie die Blätter von den Bäumen."
 (Ulf Schaefer in de.talk.jokes)


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Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by peterk: webwml/swedish/distrib archive.wml

[Peter Karlsson]

Gerfried Fuchs:

>  So, you write the release names with initial capital in your
> sources.list, too?

There's a difference between prose and software control information.

-- 
\\//
Peter - http://www.softwolves.pp.se/
  I do not read or respond to mail with HTML attachments.

Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by peterk: webwml/swedish/distrib archive.wml

[Gerfried Fuchs]

* Peter Karlsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-09-09 15:23]:
> Gerfried Fuchs:
>>  So, you write the release names with initial capital in your
>> sources.list, too?
> 
> There's a difference between prose and software control information.

 Yes, but it still might confuse the users.

 So long,
Alfie
-- 
Defaults sind dazu da von DAUs ignoriert zu werden und damit die
Support-Stellen (aka #debian.de) zu verwirren.
-- #debian.de


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Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by peterk: webwml/swedish/distrib archive.wml

[Peter Karlsson]

Gerfried Fuchs:

>  Yes, but it still might confuse the users.

I think it's more confusing to write names without an initial capital
letter, so I won't.

Besides, those that are confused by that is probably the same people
that enter URLs into the Google search field instead of the URL field
in their browser. I really hate that I have to click an extra time in
Google when I want to search for references to web sites just because
of this...

-- 
\\//
Peter - http://www.softwolves.pp.se/
  I do not read or respond to mail with HTML attachments.

Re: My mess under international/l10n

[Martin Quinson]

On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 02:45:16PM +0200, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
> * Martin Quinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-09-09 10:58]:
> > I am really sorry for the mess I introduced in international/l10n yesterday.
> > The goal of the change was to split the translated parts into perfectly
> > translated ones (100%), and underway ones (less than that).
> 
>  Good idea, IMHO.  It is always a good idea to seperate things on which
> no further work is needed from those who don't need further work.
> 
> > Some of you may think that as long as I don't look able to change those
> > pages without introducing bugs, I should only refrain myself to do any
> > change. But I was one of the authors of those pages, so I guess that if I
> > want something to happen, I have to act, and not only open bug reports.
> 
>  Right. And always remember: We are only human. Bugs happen, and they
> are good to learn from.

Thanks for your support.

>  There is just one question still open that I tried to get an answer to:
> What are those lines preceeded with ;;; in the various templ.src files?
> Are they meant as comment (why wasn't wml comment # used, then!), or are
> they meant as something different and should be translated?

;;; is the comment sign for wml. # is the comment sign for perl, and you can
have perl code in wml, but # outside perl sections denotes special commands
like file inclusion, just as in C.

>  Please elaborate, I don't know what to do with the translation without
> knowing this.

Yes, I should not have put those implementation detail explanations in the
file which the translators are supposed to work with, but the whole file
generation in the intl/l10n area is a bit weird, with a post-treatement done
by sed (in script/fix-files.sh), and I wanted to note that fact for the next
wanting to hack on those pages. When I noticed my error, it was too late,
and I didn't want to remove those comments and obscufacing even more the
poor translators. 

I am thinking about a new page generation schema involving only po files so
that the separation between the scripting and the translation become
obvious, but I still need time to think properly about that.

Thanks, Mt.

-- 
Let's call it an accidental feature.  -- Larry Wall

Re: My mess under international/l10n

[Gerfried Fuchs]

* Martin Quinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-09-09 16:13]:
> On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 02:45:16PM +0200, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
>>  There is just one question still open that I tried to get an answer to:
>> What are those lines preceeded with ;;; in the various templ.src files?
>> Are they meant as comment (why wasn't wml comment # used, then!), or are
>> they meant as something different and should be translated?
> 
> ;;; is the comment sign for wml.

 First that I heard of, first that I see it.  And while digging the
documentation for I found the following in mp4h(1):

   similar to HTML, with tags and attributes.  One important feature has
   no equivalent in HTML: comments until end of line.  All text following
   three colons is discarded until end of line, like

  ;;;  This is a comment

 I see.   So ;;; is *no* comment sign for wml, it is a comment sign for
wml_p2_mp4h. This means that stuff inside these "comments" are still
evaluated through wml_p1_ipp, see below.

> # is the comment sign for perl,

 Partly true.

> and you can have perl code in wml, but # outside perl sections denotes
> special commands like file inclusion, just as in C.

 Not really:
   Comments

   IPP provides support for up-to-end-of-line comments.  This type of com-
   ment is like the one found in Bourne-Shell or Perl, i.e. any line which
   starts with a sharp symbol (`"#"') is entirely (i.e. including the new-
   line at the end) removed from the input. Additionally these lines can
   have whitespaces in front of the sharp symbol. When you really need a
   sharp symbol at the start of a line you can use "\#", i.e. prefix it
   with an escaping backslash.
(from wml_p1_ipp(1))

 So when using ;;; instead of # as comment leader you are passing the
content through ipp which does expand $(foo) style variables.  I would
suggest to switch to ipp style comments instead of mp4h style comments
to avoid this (and maybe improve compile performance a little bit, I
don't know).

 But that is just my opinion
Alfie [going to fix his wml.vim syntax file wrt/ mp4h style comments :]
-- 
Aber der Aufwand Linux zu installieren und vim zu lernen ist *IMMER*
geringer, als Outlook das Schreiben von vernünftigen Mails beizubringen. ;)
  -- Jens Benecke [2001-06-02]


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Debian Merchandise at Copyleft.net

[Alex Davis]

Hello,
Not sure where to ask this, so I thought 
I'd send it here since it deals with info listed on one of the Debian.org web 
pages.
 
The Debian merchandise page http://www.debian.org/misc/merchandise lists 
Copyleft.net as a vendor. 
The Copyleft.net webpage has some nice 
items displayed, but they do not fulfill orders or respond to inquiries, and 
their listed phone number now belongs to someone else. 
Do you guys know if they are out of 
business, and more importantly, if one can get some of that Debian merchandise 
anywhere else?
Specifically, I'm trying to get my hands 
on the Debian Code T-shirt http://www.copyleft.net/item.phtml?&page=product_569_front.phtml and 
the Debian Swirl Hat http://www.copyleft.net/item.phtml?&page=product_971_front.phtml
Thanks

Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by peterk: webwml/swedish/distrib archive.wml

[Josip Rodin]

On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 10:36:49AM +0200, Peter Karlsson wrote:
> > Please note that the proper name of a release doesn't have a capital
> > letter.
> 
> Proper names have capital letters, so I am always writing the release
> names with upper-case letters, and fixing those that I have missed
> earlier.
> 
> BTW, I also believe the usage of the release names without initial
> capital is incorrect in the English pages.

These names are not made according to English literary language.
Even if they were, dictionary tells me proper names are usually
capitalized, not always.

In any event, I believe we quote or italicize them on every web page;
if not, that can be fixed.

> Same as with changing " into ” and -- into – on pages.

BTW, has anyone removed the header mass-remover of those yet?

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by peterk: webwml/swedish/distrib archive.wml

[Denis Barbier]

On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 10:36:49AM +0200, Peter Karlsson wrote:
> Josip Rodin:
> 
> > Please note that the proper name of a release doesn't have a capital
> > letter.
> 
> Proper names have capital letters, so I am always writing the release
> names with upper-case letters, and fixing those that I have missed
> earlier.


Primary authors decided not to capitalize them.  If you disagree, you can
file a bugreport, but you must not change this on your translations because
all translations have to be consistent.  Otherwise these authors will
exercise their veto right and remove all Swedish translations from the
website.


Denis

Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by peterk: webwml/swedish/distrib archive.wml

[Denis Barbier]

On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 02:39:07PM +0200, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
> * Peter Karlsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-09-09 10:36]:
> > BTW, I also believe the usage of the release names without initial
> > capital is incorrect in the English pages.
> 
>  So, you write the release names with initial capital in your
> sources.list, too?


Does yours contain /Debian?


Denis

Re: My mess under international/l10n

[Denis Barbier]

On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 05:22:54PM +0200, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
[...]
>  So when using ;;; instead of # as comment leader you are passing the
> content through ipp which does expand $(foo) style variables.  I would
> suggest to switch to ipp style comments instead of mp4h style comments
> to avoid this (and maybe improve compile performance a little bit, I
> don't know).
> 
>  But that is just my opinion

I fully agree, the sooner comments are removed the better.

Denis

Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by peterk: webwml/swedish/distrib archive.wml

[Osamu Aoki]

Hi, this is a topic I have to comment :)

On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 06:24:28PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 10:36:49AM +0200, Peter Karlsson wrote:
> > > Please note that the proper name of a release doesn't have a capital
> > > letter.
> > 
> > Proper names have capital letters, so I am always writing the release
> > names with upper-case letters, and fixing those that I have missed
> > earlier.
> > 
> > BTW, I also believe the usage of the release names without initial
> > capital is incorrect in the English pages.
> 
> These names are not made according to English literary language.
> Even if they were, dictionary tells me proper names are usually
> capitalized, not always.
> 
> In any event, I believe we quote or italicize them on every web page;
> if not, that can be fixed.

I am very aware of Josip's opinion and traditional thoughts expressed on
this thread.  Despite of this, I use capitalized distribution name in my
"Debian Reference".  Excuse me :)

I was standing on Josip's side initially but my English proof reader
disagreed and he insisted as follows.  

-

1. General Notes [for all languages]

  Debian distribution codenames are uppercase and untagged (Woody, Sarge) when
  used in a general sense. The distribution categories (stable, testing,
  unstable, frozen) are tagged with  when referred to in a general sense:

Do not track unstable unless you know what you're doing.

  Use a  tag when the reference is to the location of a distribution
  name on a physical filesystem:

Currently, woody/ is a symlink to the stable
directory.

Currently, woody/ is a symlink to stable/.

  Note: "woody" is lowercase above because the reference is to a system name.
  Note that trailing "/" after "woody" to clarify that it is a directory.
  "stable" in the second example has one, too. But in the first example, where
  "stable" is explicitly called a directory, the "/" is not required.

---

Yes tags (, )are in debiandoic-sgml but any of these tags
produce constant pitch fonts which imply they are computer I/O such as
sources.list.

I see Developer Reference in html uses quoted `woody' too.

---
Just curious, how bad is my action :)


Osamu

Bug#210160: www.debian.org: add headers to "You've sent email to debian@debian.org." message

[Dan Jacobson]

Package: www.debian.org
Version: unavailable; reported 2003-09-08
Severity: wishlist

Please add the complete original headers when you send
"You've sent email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]" messages, so we can figure
out what happened.

Indeed, I did not send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], but perhaps "info"
triggered it.

I sent like this
To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED]

and got

Received: from master.debian.org (master.debian.org [146.82.138.7])
by linux3.cc.ntu.edu.tw (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA25CACF6
for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Mon,  8 Sep 2003 12:25:00 +0800 (CST)
Received: from debian by master.debian.org with local (Exim 3.35 1 (Debian))
id 19wDZO-0006yq-00; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 23:24:06 -0500
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: is your /usr/share/info/dir in perfect shape?
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Precedence: junk
X-Visited: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-Gnus-Mail-Source: file:/var/mail/jidanni
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Debian GNU/Linux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 23:24:06 -0500

Hello potential user of Debian GNU/Linux!

You've sent email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Unfortunately nobody will
read it.  Don't Panic!  There are many sources of information on
Debian/GNU Linux.

For general information on Debian, please investigate our web site,
, and our ftp site, .

Our FAQ will answer many of your questions.  Please refer to it at
 or .
Postscript, text, html, and info versions are on the ftp site.

We have a very active user mailing list where Debian users and
developers can answer your questions.  You should subscribe to the
mailing list before sending email to it.  Subscribe by sending
email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word
`subscribe' in the subject.  You can also use the form at
.  Once you're
subscribed, just send your question to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

If you would like to contact Debian developers, send email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If you would like to file a bug against a Debian
package, see  or
 for instructions.

If you would like to make the developers aware of a Debian security
problem in a discrete manner, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Email regarding the web site should be addressed to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

If you have a complaint about the veracity of this information or
desperately need to talk to a real person, send email to Guy Maor
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.  Please do not bother Guy with questions that would
be better addressed with one of the above avenues.

$Id: autoreply-debian,v 1.1 2003/08/12 19:20:36 joey Exp $

Your email is appended:
>Gentlemen, the Info dir on my system is not in tip top shape, and may
>not be also on yours.  Try this simple test for duplicate entries:
>$ sort /usr/share/info/dir|uniq -d|fgrep \*
>* patch: (diff)Invoking patch.  Apply a patch to a file.
>* sdiff: (diff)Invoking sdiff.  Merge 2 files
>* testsuite: (autoconf)testsuite Invocation.Running an Autotest test

>So some packages are using install-info imperfectly.

>Maybe instead of relying on perfect use of install-info by each
>package, perhaps just remaking /usr/share/info/dir from whatever info
>files are on the system might be less error prone?

>$ sed -n 's/:.*//p' dir|sort|uniq -d
>* Gnus
>* Info
>* Message
>* patch
>* sdiff
>* testsuite
>* true
>* tty
>* uname
>* users
>* who
>* whoami
>* yes

>for me reveals that I need to do
>$ install-info --remove /usr/share/info/sh-utils.info
>as apparently that wasn't done when those tools were moved to a
>different package.  Same with fileutils...