Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi Joerg On 2021/11/04 23:14, Joerg Jaspert wrote: I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution. Ideally? Its the worst possible way to go about. I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is, That might be slightly harsh, Felix only became a DD last year, it takes some time to learn not to go for the biggest and bluntest hammer first. Also, changing the name is Step 1 only and if we leave it at that, quite pointless. Getting it all changed will take quite a while longer (start with hostnames for example). *nod*, although I don't see harm in starting with just a team name change. It doesn't have to mandate immediate changes everywhere else. The next step would probably be to file bugs for everywhere the name occurs with some tag and then track that, but I wouldn't want to force a surge of work because of this change. Starting with the delegation and then taking it one step at a time from there seems ok. -Jonathan
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 03:28:07PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote: > [...] We effectively live > under martial law you mean, people in Debian die? I'm speechless and pretty unimpressed. -- cheers, Holger ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C ⠈⠳⣄ We live in a world where teenagers get more and more desperate trying to convince adults to behave like grown ups. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, > you mean, people in Debian die? I'm speechless and pretty unimpressed. Martial law is the ad-hoc implementation of simple laws to control a population. [1] In modern democracies, it only happens to stop widespread unlawful behavior during public unrest. While effective, it is not healthy for a society because all decisions are made on the spot and without due process. [2] It is an emergency measure and has nothing to do with people dying. Most often it's a nightly curfew or the taking of private property. > I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and > completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well, but your portrayal of a wide and unequivocal acceptance of the word "Führer" in German society is fictional. [3] I am from Berlin, and people hesitate to use the word anywhere near its historical meaning—except in fringe groups. [4] Finding synonyms is a common web search. There are 683 of them. [5] > the biggest and bluntest hammer Naming a post office is not a hammer. It may be perceived that way because the threat of a GR has so often been used as a last resort when fighting, but peace is possible. We just need inclusive behavior, a tolerance for difference, and the seeking of common ground. [6] It could be the birth of a virtual republic. Have hope! Kind regards Felix Lechner [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law [2] https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt5_4_1/ [3] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BChrer#Sprachgebrauch [4] https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/die-enthemmte-mitte-schockierende-studie-ueber-rechtes-denken-jeder-zehnte-deutsche-wuenscht-sich-einen-fuehrer-wie-hitler_id_5638932.html [5] https://www.buchstaben.com/synonym/f%C3%BChrer [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Felix Lechner writes: >> I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and >> completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts > > That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well, > but your portrayal of a wide and unequivocal acceptance of the word > "Führer" in German society is fictional. [3] I am from Berlin, and > people hesitate to use the word anywhere near its historical > meaning—except in fringe groups. [4] Yes, but no one is advocating that we use the word "master" in its historical meaning relating to slavery, so that's hardly relevant. As has been repeated many times, there are non-problematic meanings of "master". So while German speakers, as you point out, may want to avoid speaking of a political leader as a "Führer", they don't seem to want to avoid referring to their driver's license as a "Führerschein". By the same token, it's reasonable for Debian to judge "master of a slave" and "master of the package archive" completely differently. -- Gard signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 06:35:43AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote: > > I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and > > completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts > > That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well, > but your portrayal of a wide and unequivocal acceptance of the word > "Führer" in German society is fictional. [3] I am from Berlin, and > people hesitate to use the word anywhere near its historical > meaning—except in fringe groups. [4] Finding synonyms is a common web > search. There are 683 of them. [5] I am also a native speaker of German. All examples that Karsten gave (you didn't quote them) are correct and current German and uncontroversially accepted in Germany. Grüße Marc -- - Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany| lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi! On 05.11.21 15:23, Gard Spreemann wrote:> Felix Lechner writes: I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well, but your portrayal of a wide and unequivocal acceptance of the word "Führer" in German society is fictional. […] So while German speakers, as you point out, may want to avoid speaking of a political leader as a "Führer", they don't seem to want to avoid referring to their driver's license as a "Führerschein". By the same token, it's reasonable for Debian to judge "master of a slave" and "master of the package archive" completely differently. This is turning, yet again, into a "Germans debate German language issues" thread. I think this is not helping. The issue raised by Felix Lechner seems to be worthwhile debating, the proposed strategy (doing it via a GR) is certainly questionable. Also, @Gard: Please note that in the former GDR, which seems to be a part of the rest of Germany nowadays, even though income maps seem to indicate otherwise [1], the word "Führerschein" (literally: guide certificate - where guide is a vehicle guide) was replaced by "Fahrerlaubnis" (driving permission) [2] and is still widely used with this connotation in this part of the country. (In reunified Germany, the term is also used, but means something slightly different.) Have a great weekend Ulrike [1] https://www.wsi.de/data/wsi_vm_verfuegbare_einkommen_kreise_print-01.png [2] https://www.ddr-museum.de/de/objects/1020956
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, > This is turning, yet again, into a "Germans debate German language > issues" thread. Please don't worry. Having started it, I will lead us out again. > it's reasonable for Debian to judge "master of a slave" and > "master of the package archive" completely differently. Yes, it's reasonable, but it's not nice. This isn't even about changing the colloquial use. I am asking for your vote to change an official term. It is already outdated. The hope is to make Debian a more welcoming place. It would be a gradual process, because change is hard. How much of a concession could it be? Does it feel like social engineering, or like the drumbeat of the political left? It is neither, although it would help if you felt that way. No one likes to be commanded around—you don't, and neither did the slaves. See, you have so much in common! Either way, I am just asking for your vote. You can say no, and I won't judge you for it. But I will say, please. Kind regards Felix Lechner
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 03:28:07PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote: >On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 2:14 PM Joerg Jaspert wrote: > >> Debian is a very risk averse and slow to change project. > >We need more trust. The group has to rise—as a moral force, but >gently—over the arbitrary and capricious nature that makes us who we >are. In short, we need more compassion for each other and more >inspiration to do good. Some call it culture. > >The strong maintainer model is one big reason. DAM is desperately >trying to rule. The code of conduct isn't working. We effectively live >under martial law, a very low and unjust way to organize our group's >affairs. What does it mean to be sophisticated? Debian can do better. "Martial law"? Are you *really* trying to claim we're in a setup with "direct military control of normal civil functions" [1]. Stop trying to push buttons, and go and do something useful instead. [1] To quote the same wikipedia article you linked yourself. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "I can't ever sleep on planes ... call it irrational if you like, but I'm afraid I'll miss my stop" -- Vivek Das Mohapatra
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On 16308 March 1977, Jonathan Carter wrote: I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution. Ideally? Its the worst possible way to go about. I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is, That might be slightly harsh, Felix only became a DD last year, it takes some time to learn not to go for the biggest and bluntest hammer first. Only slightly, and nah, I am pretty sure that was a 100% calculated move to go directly to this. Also, changing the name is Step 1 only and if we leave it at that, quite pointless. Getting it all changed will take quite a while longer (start with hostnames for example). *nod*, although I don't see harm in starting with just a team name change. It doesn't have to mandate immediate changes everywhere else. The next step would probably be to file bugs for everywhere the name occurs with some tag and then track that, but I wouldn't want to force a surge of work because of this change. Starting with the delegation and then taking it one step at a time from there seems ok. Yeah. The current name is wrong for ages already, ftp is hardly in use for a long time, so thats a good reason to adjust it. If it happens to lose the "master" part in that, oh fine. And yeah, it will take *ages* and lots of small steps before it will be all through. -- bye, Joerg
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 2:45 PM Joerg Jaspert wrote: > > I am pretty sure that was a 100% calculated move > to go directly to this. It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?) Let's lose the fear of referendums. Our fellow contributors are our trusted partners in this noble endeavor! Debian is good. The group is good. Please have a good weekend, everyone! Felix
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Just dropping my 2cents: On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, 12:09 am Felix Lechner, wrote: > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 2:45 PM Joerg Jaspert wrote: > > > > I am pretty sure that was a 100% calculated move > > to go directly to this. > > It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I > hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?) > If I was given the question: would you like to get rid of the word "master" because it reminds somebody of slavery, my answer would be NO. (Incidentally, I have similar thoughts about blacklist/whitelist and similar SJW crap) In fact, depending how the ballots are worded, I might just even vote against this specific proposal. Let's lose the fear of referendums. Our fellow contributors are our > trusted partners in this noble endeavor! > But I do support this stance. I'd love to see something like GRs used way way more often, if only the process was much lighter in bureaucracy 🤐
off-topic Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, On 05.11.21 16:11, Ulrike Uhlig wrote: On 05.11.21 15:23, Gard Spreemann wrote:> Felix Lechner writes: Please note that in the former GDR, which seems to be a part of the rest of Germany nowadays, even though income maps seem to indicate otherwise [1], the word "Führerschein" (literally: guide certificate - where guide is a vehicle guide) was replaced by "Fahrerlaubnis" (driving permission) [2] and is still widely used with this connotation in this part of the country. (In reunified Germany, the term is also used, but means something slightly different.) I need to correct what I said, because it's probably factually wrong. Likely, the term was not "replaced" as I said above but instead "tried to be avoided" - and it still is by some. The point I was trying to make was that the German usage of "Führerschein" was and is definitely not as uncontroversial as it has been presented in this thread. Sorry for adding another off-topic message to an already off-topic thread! ulrike
