OT: the art of reviewing unix log files

[davidson]

On the topic of reviewing unix log files, what have you read before
and found useful later?

--
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12518471 alexk already addressed
your concern: your keys, preferably issued by your org's CA (instead
of being generated by you) should be short-lived, oftentimes for the
duration of your "work shift". The tools listed above support this.

Re: OT: the art of reviewing unix log files

[l0f4r0]

Hi,

1 juin 2020 à 09:43 de david...@freevolt.org:

> On the topic of reviewing unix log files, what have you read before
> and found useful later?
>
Having an appropriate tool helps a lot:
https://lnav.org/

Best regards,
l0f4r0

Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state

[Marco Möller]

On 01.06.20 04:52, Tom Dial wrote:



On 5/31/20 03:28, Victor Sudakov wrote:

David Wright wrote:

On Fri 29 May 2020 at 21:57:06 (+0700), Victor Sudakov wrote:

David Wright wrote:

Finally,   pkg delete -a   sounds like something from the abattoir,
rather than anything you'd do to a pet (to use your analogy).


It's not as terrible as it sounds ;-) It's more from a vet clinic than
from a slaughterhouse. You don't lose configs, you don't lose network
connectivity or remote access during this procedure. You can save a list
of installed packages before deleting them, and reinstall only those you
know you need.

Unfortunately, the FreeBSD package system is not as mature as DEB or
RPM, therefore until very recently the "pkg delete -a" procedure has
been required to get rid of the dependencey hell.


OK, that sounds more like what people do on Windows systems, where
there's a reset option, except that on Windows you can, ISTR, lose
all your own files if they're under C:.


Since what version does Windows have a reset option? For dozens of
years, literally, Windows has been notorious for leftovers of removed
programs remaining in the "base system" and causing unexpected effects.
There were even commercial products on the market to purge those leftovers.

FreeBSD is different in this respect. No part of third-party software
ever gets into the base system (unless you install something manually
and incorrectly). And of course you don't lose any user data if you run
"pkg delete -a"



Debian doesn't work that way: you can remove packages from the system
at will in a controlled manner. Isn't that what sysadmins do?


Well, I was not feeling particulary sysadmin-ish about the desktop
system I wanted to cleanup.




"apt has a bug, cannot believe it!"
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/05/msg00567.html


Well, I must admit, I can sympathize with this person's frustration. He
just got confused among those AutoRemove* advanced options.


I think it's much more than that. The OP appeared to regard the
--no-install-recommends option as a *property* that is applied to each
package installed under that recommendation regime, and that
that property would be preserved for all time. But as the "-install-"
in --no-install-recommends shows, it's just an option for the install
command itself.


Dare I say that one needs knowledge beyond a regular user to understand
these subtleties?




I, too, was surprised by some Debian features like its tendency to start
daemons with a vanilla configuration right after installation. Still
can't say I like this decision.


This has been discussed in the past. Using the term "vanilla" suggests
that an ordinary upstream configuration is applied to the daemon,
which is not true: the Debian developers apply what they consider are
sensible secure defaults, designed to integrate with the distribution.
This work is usually documented in changelog.Debian.gz or various
READMEs.


Is the /usr/sbin/policy-rc.d method still the official supported one of
disabling this behavior when it is not desirable?



In the fairly large number of posts in this thread I don't recall seeing
file system snapshots suggested. My current preference is ZFS, which I
know from experience to be up to what I understand to be the goal here.


(...)
I understand the OP to be in search for the uncomplicated removal of 
installed packages considering package installation dates.
A fs snaphot tool is likely to return to a general system state which 
would include also the return of the user data and system configurations 
to a point of time in the past, instead of only treating package 
installs. And if having to prepare sophisticated steps like requiring 
special partitioning schemes, then this wouldn't be uncomplicated anymore.

Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state

[Marco Möller]

On 01.06.20 04:41, emetib wrote:

this has been an interesting topic, so what the hell, here's my two cents.

for my vm's, i have a list off packages that i install as soon as the 
minimum/base install and reboot is done.  4 vm's, testing, stable, centos7, 
opensuse.  i have no gui's on these only cli, just need to know how to 
configure things for other os's than debian and it becomes a simple cut and 
paste to get a system to be at what i need.

have a home partition, not just a home dir, and back it up often with a 
timestamp on it, and do a --get-selections and dump it to a file that you back 
up also. also doing that is an easy way to compare what was installed and what 
is now installed.

keep sensitive config files in a spot that you know is going to be backed up or 
on your home partition so they aren't overwritten with a new install.

there was a suggestion about using a live distro to make a back up right away, 
never done it before, yet this is a great idea.

i believe that someone (smarter than me) could write a simple script to put all 
user installed programs into a file and then reinstall them after a 
full-reinstall.
i.e.
bash_install_script.sh
check if su
add package to list
continue with the install


This is almost exactly what I am also doing.

The problem remains to simply remove a couple of packages without having 
to go for a full blown system reinstall and all the necessary 
requirements for organizing it well. As there is a package manager, it 
is obviously a straight forward logic to expect it to do this job, 
because this is exactly what a package manager is expected to manage.
All other suggestions which have been brought up in the thread are 
workarounds for filling the gap where the package manager is not full 
featured.
The short answer to this thread is that unfortunately Debian is not 
prepared with a simple solution for this simple task, but sophisticated 
workarounds are needed.

Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state

[Marco Möller]

On 01.06.20 08:04, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Sb, 30 mai 20, 19:54:09, Marco Möller wrote:


 From the view of a user, it does not sound so complicated ;-) . I guess, and
this will be fair, that I am now asked to program it, it's open source and I
should contribute. But unfortunately I can only contribute ideas, I am not a
programmer. :-(
  
APT is possibly not be best place to implement something like this,

especially since there are various other softwares that do more or less
what you want:

debootstrap, mmdebstrap, FAI: custom installations
ansible, puppet, etc.: shape your installation as needed.

Or integrate with your backup strategy (you do have backups, right?).


I strongly suggest that the package manager cares for managing the packages.

Re: ActiveSync Postfix

[lists]

Hi,

If that is what you need, then you should checkout SOGo, it works with 
the components you've described below, and adds ActiveSync to the mix. 
(and CardDAV / CalDAV).


You could then decide to drop squirrelmail, or simply continue using 
that as well for email.


MJ

Op 30-5-2020 om 21:14 schreef Gokan Atmaca:

Hello

I am using Postfix. (Postfix, OpenLdap, Dovecot, Squirrelmail) My goal
is to synchronize contacts and calendars. I have to do ActiveSync for
this. How can I resolve ActiveSync ? Is there an open source solution
?

Thanks.

Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state

[songbird]

Marco Möller wrote:
...
> The problem remains to simply remove a couple of packages without having 
> to go for a full blown system reinstall and all the necessary 
> requirements for organizing it well. As there is a package manager, it 
> is obviously a straight forward logic to expect it to do this job, 
> because this is exactly what a package manager is expected to manage.
> All other suggestions which have been brought up in the thread are 
> workarounds for filling the gap where the package manager is not full 
> featured.
> The short answer to this thread is that unfortunately Debian is not 
> prepared with a simple solution for this simple task, but sophisticated 
> workarounds are needed.

  Debian is fine as long as there is a partition image
program that functions when needed.

  when it was important for me to have this sort of
backup and restore of a pristine Debian system it worked
well for me.

  i am now at a spot where i don't need that sort of
functionality so i don't do that any more.


  songbird

Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state

[songbird]

Tom Dial wrote:
...
> In the fairly large number of posts in this thread I don't recall seeing
> file system snapshots suggested. My current preference is ZFS, which I
> know from experience to be up to what I understand to be the goal here.

  both timeshift and partclone have been mentioned.  both
can be used to do snapshots.  while i have not fully tested
either of them lately.

  i see now that there is clonezilla too.  again i've not
had cause to test any of these out, but i suspect they'd
work.


> However, root on ZFS is a distinctly non-standard and hands on install
> that is fairly straightforward and decently documented, but not for
> everyone. Moreover, ZFS is not DFSG and GPL compliant, and quite a few
> users would avoid it because of that.
>
> Alternatives include LVM and btrfs, and possibly others. I have used LVM
> snapshots a little, but not for this use case. It appears to have the
> capability to accomplish the objective, as described in
>
> https://linuxconfig.org/create-and-restore-manual-logical-volume-snapshots
>
> for instance.
>
> I have not used btrfs and therefore have no opinion about its fitness
> for the case at hand.


  songbird

Re: ActiveSync Postfix

[Gokan Atmaca]

> If that is what you need, then you should checkout SOGo, it works with
> the components you've described below, and adds ActiveSync to the mix.
> (and CardDAV / CalDAV).

I installed SOGO. It is working now. My only issue is not syncing
contacts on mobile clients.
I'm investigating.

Thank you for your interest.


On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 1:39 PM lists  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> If that is what you need, then you should checkout SOGo, it works with
> the components you've described below, and adds ActiveSync to the mix.
> (and CardDAV / CalDAV).
>
> You could then decide to drop squirrelmail, or simply continue using
> that as well for email.
>
> MJ
>
> Op 30-5-2020 om 21:14 schreef Gokan Atmaca:
> > Hello
> >
> > I am using Postfix. (Postfix, OpenLdap, Dovecot, Squirrelmail) My goal
> > is to synchronize contacts and calendars. I have to do ActiveSync for
> > this. How can I resolve ActiveSync ? Is there an open source solution
> > ?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>

Towards a customizeable installer

[Richard Owlett]

The standard Debian installer gives me only two poor choices:
  too little customization  [i.e. Standard]
  too much customization[i.e. Expert]
There are question always asked which will always have same answer [e.g. 
Full name].


Back when Squeeze was the current release there was a website whose 
input screens resembled those of Expert mode and generated a custom 
preseed.cfg file .


I suspect which search terms I used was cause for lack of relevant 
results. I.E. today I did [https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=%2B"debian";] .
Of the first two dozen hits about half seemed promising. When reviewed, 
~ six were worth additional investigation but none had what I was 
looking for.


Does anyone recall the page I described in my 2nd paragraph?
TIA

Re: Syntax regarding "Exec" instruction in .desktop files

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Jun 01, 2020 at 03:12:03PM +0200, l0f...@tuta.io wrote:
> "Arguments may be quoted in whole. If an argument contains a reserved 
> character the argument must be quoted. The rules for quoting of arguments is 
> also applicable to the executable name or path of the executable program as 
> provided.

> Quoting must be done by enclosing the argument between double quotes and 
> escaping the double quote character, [...]

OK so far.

> Let's take an example, here is my fusuma.desktop file:[Desktop Entry]
> Type=Application
> Name=fusuma
> Exec=sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem >/dev/null; then $(ruby -r 
> rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'

You have not followed the allowed syntax.  You have an argument which
needs quoting, but you have not enclosed it in double-quotes.  Nor have
you escaped the characters within it that need escaping.

I would not even *attempt* to do what you are trying to do here.  Your
life would become enormously simpler if you would just put this shell
script inside a file, and Exec it as a script.

Attempting to in-line a shell script inside an Exec= line is madness.

Re: Towards a customizeable installer

[tomas]

On Mon, Jun 01, 2020 at 07:01:21AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> The standard Debian installer gives me only two poor choices:
>   too little customization[i.e. Standard]
>   too much customization  [i.e. Expert]
> There are question always asked which will always have same answer
> [e.g. Full name].
> 
> Back when Squeeze was the current release there was a website whose
> input screens resembled those of Expert mode and generated a custom
> preseed.cfg file .
> 
> I suspect which search terms I used was cause for lack of relevant
> results. I.E. today I did
> [https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=%2B"debian";] .
> Of the first two dozen hits about half seemed promising. When
> reviewed, ~ six were worth additional investigation but none had
> what I was looking for.

Perhaps it's

  https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=%2B"debian"+%2B"preseed";

or have I misunderstood you completely?

Cheers
-- tomás


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Re: Towards a customizeable installer

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/01/2020 09:16 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Mon, Jun 01, 2020 at 07:01:21AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

The standard Debian installer gives me only two poor choices:
   too little customization [i.e. Standard]
   too much customization   [i.e. Expert]
There are question always asked which will always have same answer
[e.g. Full name].

Back when Squeeze was the current release there was a website whose
input screens resembled those of Expert mode and generated a custom
preseed.cfg file .

I suspect which search terms I used was cause for lack of relevant
results. I.E. today I did
[https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=%2B"debian";] .
Of the first two dozen hits about half seemed promising. When
reviewed, ~ six were worth additional investigation but none had
what I was looking for.


Perhaps it's

   https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=%2B"debian"+%2B"preseed";

or have I misunderstood you completely?

Cheers
-- tomás



https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=%2B"debian"+%2B"preseed"; *IS* what I 
intended. On my third try of copy-n-paste I thought I got it right ;/

Re: Syntax regarding "Exec" instruction in .desktop files

[l0f4r0]

Hi Greg,

1 juin 2020 à 15:25 de wool...@eeg.ccf.org:

> On Mon, Jun 01, 2020 at 03:12:03PM +0200, l0f...@tuta.io wrote:
>
>> Let's take an example, here is my fusuma.desktop file:[Desktop Entry]
>>
>> Type=Application
>> Name=fusuma
>> Exec=sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem >/dev/null; then $(ruby -r 
>> rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'
>>
> You have not followed the allowed syntax.  You have an argument which
> needs quoting, but you have not enclosed it in double-quotes.  Nor have
> you escaped the characters within it that need escaping.
>
Yes, absolutely, that's why I mentioned my modifications some lines after in my 
OP ;)
What would be your 100% compliant version please?

> I would not even *attempt* to do what you are trying to do here.  Your
> life would become enormously simpler if you would just put this shell
> script inside a file, and Exec it as a script.
>
> Attempting to in-line a shell script inside an Exec= line is madness.
>
Interesting. Is it madness because it becomes too much complicated to write it 
easily and correctly according to the official specifications (namely 
quoting/escaping...)? Or for different reasons?

Thank you in advance.
Best regards,
l0f4r0

Re: Towards a customizeable installer

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/01/2020 09:32 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 06/01/2020 09:16 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Mon, Jun 01, 2020 at 07:01:21AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

The standard Debian installer gives me only two poor choices:
   too little customization    [i.e. Standard]
   too much customization    [i.e. Expert]
There are question always asked which will always have same answer
[e.g. Full name].

Back when Squeeze was the current release there was a website whose
input screens resembled those of Expert mode and generated a custom
preseed.cfg file .

I suspect which search terms I used was cause for lack of relevant
results. I.E. today I did
[https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=%2B"debian";] .
Of the first two dozen hits about half seemed promising. When
reviewed, ~ six were worth additional investigation but none had
what I was looking for.


Perhaps it's

   https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=%2B"debian"+%2B"preseed";

or have I misunderstood you completely?

Cheers
-- tomás



https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=%2B"debian"+%2B"preseed"; *IS* what I 
intended. On my third try of copy-n-paste I thought I got it right ;/


OOPS --  should have finished my second cup of coffee

Search was

https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=%2B%22debian%22%20%2B%22custom%22%20%2B%22preseed.cfg%22

DE menu customization

[l0f4r0]

Hi,

How do you deal with your desktop environment menu customization please?
Manually? Or via some softwares like MenuLibre or Alacarte?
Do you have specific advice except reading 
https://specifications.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/index.html?

I would like to rearrange my Debian 10 Xfce "Applications" menu but it doesn't 
seem to be so easy...
* MenuLibre: the interface is nice & the intention is laudable but I don't 
always succeed in moving applications from one category to another (category 
tags come back frequently after my modifications as some config files take 
precedence) + I lost my Wine submenu...
* Alacarte: it made my whole menu disappearing: my 
~/.config/menus/xfce-applications.menu has been emptied after I moved an 
application some positions down. I've copied 
/etc/xdg/menus/xfce-applications.menu in ~/.config/menus and now all my 
categories are duplicated (removing ~/.config/menus/xfce-applications.menu 
totally doesn't help) ...
In short, more I dig with those tools, worse it becomes.
That's why I'm  wondering if this would not be easier to do the modifications 
manually...

Thank you in advance :)
Best regards,
l0f4r0

Syntax regarding "Exec" instruction in .desktop files

[l0f4r0]

Hi,

Could someone explain to me the correct syntax (quoting & escaping) regarding 
"Exec" instruction in .desktop files please?

The FreeDesktop specification 
(https://specifications.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ar01s07.html) 
says the following:

===BEGIN EXTRACT===
"Arguments may be quoted in whole. If an argument contains a reserved character 
the argument must be quoted. The rules for quoting of arguments is also 
applicable to the executable name or path of the executable program as provided.

Quoting must be done by enclosing the argument between double quotes and 
escaping the double quote character, backtick character ("`"), dollar sign 
("$") and backslash character ("\") by preceding it with an additional 
backslash character. Implementations must undo quoting before expanding field 
codes and before passing the argument to the executable program. Reserved 
characters are space (" "), tab, newline, double quote, single quote ("'"), 
backslash character ("\"), greater-than sign (">"), less-than sign ("<"), tilde 
("~"), vertical bar ("|"), ampersand ("&"), semicolon (";"), dollar sign ("$"), 
asterisk ("*"), question mark ("?"), hash mark ("#"), parenthesis ("(") and 
(")") and backtick character ("`").

Note that the general escape rule for values of type string states that the 
backslash character can be escaped as ("\\") as well and that this escape rule 
is applied before the quoting rule. As such, to unambiguously represent a 
literal backslash character in a quoted argument in a desktop entry file 
requires the use of four successive backslash characters (""). Likewise, a 
literal dollar sign in a quoted argument in a desktop entry file is 
unambiguously represented with ("\\$")."
===END EXTRACT===

I'm not sure to understand that totally...

Let's take an example, here is my fusuma.desktop file:[Desktop Entry]
Type=Application
Name=fusuma
Exec=sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem >/dev/null; then $(ruby -r 
rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'
StartupNotify=false
Terminal=false

Actually, it WORKS on my Debian 10... but it's not considered as syntaxically 
correct:

desktop-file-validate fusuma.desktop 

fusuma.desktop: error: value "sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem 
>/dev/null; then $(ruby -r rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'" 
for key "Exec" in group "Desktop Entry" contains a reserved character ''' 
outside of a quote
fusuma.desktop: error: value "sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem 
>/dev/null; then $(ruby -r rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'" 
for key "Exec" in group "Desktop Entry" contains a reserved character '>' 
outside of a quote
fusuma.desktop: error: value "sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem 
>/dev/null; then $(ruby -r rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'" 
for key "Exec" in group "Desktop Entry" contains a reserved character '&' 
outside of a quote
fusuma.desktop: error: value "sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem 
>/dev/null; then $(ruby -r rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'" 
for key "Exec" in group "Desktop Entry" contains a reserved character '&' 
outside of a quote
fusuma.desktop: error: value "sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem 
>/dev/null; then $(ruby -r rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'" 
for key "Exec" in group "Desktop Entry" contains a reserved character '>' 
outside of a quote
fusuma.desktop: error: value "sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem 
>/dev/null; then $(ruby -r rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'" 
for key "Exec" in group "Desktop Entry" contains a reserved character ';' 
outside of a quote
fusuma.desktop: error: value "sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem 
>/dev/null; then $(ruby -r rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'" 
for key "Exec" in group "Desktop Entry" contains a reserved character '$' 
outside of a quote
fusuma.desktop: error: value "sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem 
>/dev/null; then $(ruby -r rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'" 
for key "Exec" in group "Desktop Entry" contains a reserved character '(' 
outside of a quote
fusuma.desktop: error: value "sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem 
>/dev/null; then $(ruby -r rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'" 
for key "Exec" in group "Desktop Entry" contains a reserved character ')' 
outside of a quote
fusuma.desktop: error: value "sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem 
>/dev/null; then $(ruby -r rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'" 
for key "Exec" in group "Desktop Entry" contains a reserved character ';' 
outside of a quote
fusuma.desktop: error: value "sh -c 'if which ruby >/dev/null && which gem 
>/dev/null; then $(ruby -r rubygems -e "puts Gem.user_dir")/bin/fusuma -d; fi'" 
for key "Exec" in group "Desktop Entry" contains a reserved character ''' 
outside of a quote

>From my understanding, I've tried:
E

Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 01 iun 20, 12:26:28, Marco Möller wrote:
> On 01.06.20 08:04, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > On Sb, 30 mai 20, 19:54:09, Marco Möller wrote:
> > > 
> > >  From the view of a user, it does not sound so complicated ;-) . I guess, 
> > > and
> > > this will be fair, that I am now asked to program it, it's open source 
> > > and I
> > > should contribute. But unfortunately I can only contribute ideas, I am 
> > > not a
> > > programmer. :-(
> > APT is possibly not be best place to implement something like this,
> > especially since there are various other softwares that do more or less
> > what you want:
> > 
> > debootstrap, mmdebstrap, FAI: custom installations

Forgot to mention vmdb2 (build images or installations from scratch)...

> > ansible, puppet, etc.: shape your installation as needed.

... and equivs, to easily build your own meta-packages.

> > Or integrate with your backup strategy (you do have backups, right?).
> 
> I strongly suggest that the package manager cares for managing the packages.
 
APT is already managing packages.

It can also be improved in many ways related to it's core mission, like 
fixing bugs[1] and adding new features[1].

What you are requesting is for it to manage collections of possibly 
unrelated packages (no Depends/Recommends/Suggests/etc. relations).

In my opinion this functionality is better and easier implemented in 
other tools.

[1] which are close to 1000 :(
[2] I'm looking forward to support for aptitude's search patterns.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: Syntax regarding "Exec" instruction in .desktop files

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 01 iun 20, 17:34:10, l0f...@tuta.io wrote:
> 1 juin 2020 à 15:25 de wool...@eeg.ccf.org:
> 
> > I would not even *attempt* to do what you are trying to do here.  Your
> > life would become enormously simpler if you would just put this shell
> > script inside a file, and Exec it as a script.
> >
> > Attempting to in-line a shell script inside an Exec= line is madness.
> >
> Interesting. Is it madness because it becomes too much complicated to 
> write it easily and correctly according to the official specifications 
> (namely quoting/escaping...)? Or for different reasons?

Yes :)

Question for you: how much would it have taken you to write that into a 
script compared to the time you spent trying to get the quoting right?

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: Can't get started

[David Wright]

On Mon 01 Jun 2020 at 09:34:46 (+0300), Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Sb, 30 mai 20, 16:09:46, David Wright wrote:
> > 
> > My only worry was whether systemd-networkd gives way gracefully
> > to a configured ifupdown, or fights it like systemd-timesyncd vs ntp.
> 
> systemd-networkd is not enabled nor configured by default in buster.

That was my guess; good to have it confirmed.

> > > > I've yet to see any virtue in using a static configuration¹ at home
> > > > and dhcp everywhere else.
> > > 
> > > [...]
> > > 
> > > > ¹ Static, that is, from the point of view of the PC. I use static
> > > > IP numbers, but they're issued by the router, which makes spotting
> > > > any interlopers easier (assuming you reserve a range for
> > > > "foreign" assignment).
> > > 
> > > ISP provided router with no support for DHCP reservations, combined with 
> > > running something like barrier on the laptop.
> > 
> > I can't understand what you're trying to describe here. My footnote
> > was to explain that I appreciate a desire to have fixed IP addresses
> > for devices when they're at home, but they're not going to hold as
> > soon as you leave. I reserve everything up to .199 on my main router
> > for devices we own, so that casual devices will appear as .2xx.
> > Again, it's just a convenience.
> 
> Apparently we are talking about completely different things / past each 
> other so, in my opinion, there is no value in discussing this further.

First, let me thank you for the warning about the bug that can affect
passwordless wifi. I didn't know that, and presumably the OP didn't either.

I've tried to help the OP get their system working with wifi. I think
the only other suggestions have been to start over. Perhaps that says
something. But I tried to make my suggestions applicable whichever .iso
had been used originally, and whatever software had been installed
during the d-i step. We've never been informed of either.

Your valued contributions, while correct, and interesting in
themselves, haven't made the same assumptions as mine, and I've
pointed that out along the way. I'm sorry to disappoint you in not
being able to make sense of your last contribution on some sort of
ISP provided router and "barrier". As far as the OP's problem is
concerned, I've already yielded to others.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state

[David Wright]

On Sun 31 May 2020 at 16:28:34 (+0700), Victor Sudakov wrote:
> David Wright wrote:
> > On Fri 29 May 2020 at 21:57:06 (+0700), Victor Sudakov wrote:
> > > David Wright wrote:
> > > > Finally,   pkg delete -a   sounds like something from the abattoir,
> > > > rather than anything you'd do to a pet (to use your analogy).
> > > 
> > > It's not as terrible as it sounds ;-) It's more from a vet clinic than
> > > from a slaughterhouse. You don't lose configs, you don't lose network
> > > connectivity or remote access during this procedure. You can save a list
> > > of installed packages before deleting them, and reinstall only those you
> > > know you need.
> > > 
> > > Unfortunately, the FreeBSD package system is not as mature as DEB or
> > > RPM, therefore until very recently the "pkg delete -a" procedure has
> > > been required to get rid of the dependencey hell.
> > 
> > OK, that sounds more like what people do on Windows systems, where
> > there's a reset option, except that on Windows you can, ISTR, lose
> > all your own files if they're under C:.
> 
> Since what version does Windows have a reset option?

No idea. The last version of Windows that I used was IIRC 3.11.
I parted company when W95 came with "DOS" 7 rather than a
successor to DOS 6.22.

> For dozens of
> years, literally, Windows has been notorious for leftovers of removed
> programs remaining in the "base system" and causing unexpected effects.
> There were even commercial products on the market to purge those leftovers.

You're way ahead of me on Windows, then. I just know what I've seen,
and what I saw was this:

Chapter 3. Lenovo OneKey Recovery system
  The Lenovo OneKey Recovery system is software designed to back up and
  restore your computer. You can use it to restore the system partition to its
  original status in case of a system failure. You can also create user backups
  for easy restoration as required.
   Note: To utilize the features of the OneKey Recovery system, your hard disk 
already
 includes a hidden partition by default to store the system image file 
and the OneKey
 Recovery system program files. This default partition is hidden for 
security reasons,
 which explains why the available disk space is less than the stated 
capacity.
· Backing up the system partition
  You can back up the system partition to an image file. To back up the system
  partition:
  1 Press the Novo button to start the Lenovo OneKey Recovery system.
  2 Click System Backup.
  3 Select a back-up location and click Next to start the backup.
   Notes:
   • You can choose a back-up location on the local hard disk drive or an 
external storage device.
   • The back-up process may take a while.
   • The back-up process is only available when Windows can be started normally.
· Restoring
  You can choose to restore the system partition to its original status or to a
  previously created back-up point. To restore the system partition:
  1 Press the Novo button to start the Lenovo OneKey Recovery system.
  2 Click System Recovery. The computer will restart to the recovery 
environment.
  3 Follow the on-screen instructions to restore the system partition to its
  original status or to a previously created back-up point.
   Notes:
   • The recovery process is irreversible. Make sure to back up any data you 
wish to save on
  the system partition before starting the recovery process.
   • The recovery process may take a while. So be sure to connect the AC power 
adapter to
  your computer during the recovery process.
   • The above instructions should be followed when Windows can be started 
normally.
  If Windows cannot be started, follow the steps below to start the Lenovo
  OneKey Recovery system:
1 Shut down the computer.
2 Press the Novo button. From Novo Button Menu, select System recovery
  and press Enter.

This laptop has three partitions coded 2700 which I presume are for
supporting this, plus a partition coded ed01 which I presume is the
code executed from the "Novo" button. I've only used this button to
switch to BIOS for linux, from EFI/Windows.

> FreeBSD is different in this respect. No part of third-party software
> ever gets into the base system (unless you install something manually
> and incorrectly).

This has already been pointed out, that Debian's installed system is
an individual outcome, not some sort of mandated selection.

> And of course you don't lose any user data if you run 
> "pkg delete -a"

I didn't know we were discussing user data at all.

> > Debian doesn't work that way: you can remove packages from the system
> > at will in a controlled manner. Isn't that what sysadmins do?
> 
> Well, I was not feeling particulary sysadmin-ish about the desktop
> system I wanted to cleanup.

How you feel about it can't alter the fact that reverting a system by
removing packages is a sysadmin-ish process: you administering the
system.

> > > > "apt has a bug, cannot believe it!"
> > > > https://lists.de

Re: Syntax regarding "Exec" instruction in .desktop files

[l0f4r0]

Hi Andrei,

1 juin 2020 à 20:03 de andreimpope...@gmail.com:

> On Lu, 01 iun 20, 17:34:10, l0f...@tuta.io wrote:
>
>> 1 juin 2020 à 15:25 de wool...@eeg.ccf.org:
>>
>> > I would not even *attempt* to do what you are trying to do here.  Your
>> > life would become enormously simpler if you would just put this shell
>> > script inside a file, and Exec it as a script.
>> >
>> > Attempting to in-line a shell script inside an Exec= line is madness.
>> >
>> Interesting. Is it madness because it becomes too much complicated to 
>> write it easily and correctly according to the official specifications 
>> (namely quoting/escaping...)? Or for different reasons?
>>
> Yes :)
>
> Question for you: how much would it have taken you to write that into a 
> script compared to the time you spent trying to get the quoting right?
>
HaHa, of course the latter is much more time-consuming than the former BUT the 
former makes me more knowledgeable.
A workaround/bypass expedites the issue for sure and can sometimes be 
satisfying when particularly clever, but it prevents you from understanding the 
machinery.
I tend to implement workaround when everything else fail.

Best regards,
l0f4r0

Re: Towards a customizeable installer

[Brian]

On Mon 01 Jun 2020 at 07:01:21 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> Does anyone recall the page I described in my 2nd paragraph?

It doesn't exist anymore.

Your knowledge of preseeding should be sufficient to get to where you
want to be.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Towards a customizeable installer

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/01/2020 02:21 PM, Brian wrote:

On Mon 01 Jun 2020 at 07:01:21 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:


Does anyone recall the page I described in my 2nd paragraph?


It doesn't exist anymore.

Your knowledge of preseeding should be sufficient to get to where you
want to be.



No.
My *EXPLICIT REQUIREMENT* is to produce multiple preseed.cfg files in a 
semiautomatic manner.

Re: Debian man pages have annoying feature(sic)

[Ralph Katz]

On 5/30/20 3:52 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
...
> *PROBLEM*
> As package is not installed, that directory does *NOT* exist.
> 
> Where to find required documentation on the web?
> 
> NOTE BENE
> This post is about man pages as a class.
> 

apt show debian-goodies
...
debman - Easily view man pages from a binary .deb without extracting
   [man, apt* (via debget)]

So...  ~$ dman packagename   # will fetch the manpages as though they
were local.

Regards,
Ralph

Re: Towards a customizeable installer

[Brian]

On Mon 01 Jun 2020 at 14:28:45 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 06/01/2020 02:21 PM, Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 01 Jun 2020 at 07:01:21 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > 
> > > Does anyone recall the page I described in my 2nd paragraph?
> > 
> > It doesn't exist anymore.
> > 
> > Your knowledge of preseeding should be sufficient to get to where you
> > want to be.
> > 
> 
> No.
> My *EXPLICIT REQUIREMENT* is to produce multiple preseed.cfg files in a
> semiautomatic manner.

Your explicit requirement is something you have imposed on yourself.
Why impose it on others in your search for a solution to preseeding?

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian man pages have annoying feature(sic)

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/01/2020 04:02 PM, Ralph Katz wrote:

On 5/30/20 3:52 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
...

*PROBLEM*
As package is not installed, that directory does *NOT* exist.

Where to find required documentation on the web?

NOTE BENE
This post is about man pages as a class.



apt show debian-goodies
...
debman - Easily view man pages from a binary .deb without extracting
[man, apt* (via debget)]

So...  ~$ dman packagename   # will fetch the manpages as though they
were local.

Regards,
Ralph



Thank you. Looks interesting.
1st didn't work even after installing debian-goodies.
Suspect operator. Leaving now. will pursue in morning.

Re: Debian man pages have annoying feature(sic)

[Bob Weber]

On 6/1/20 6:02 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 06/01/2020 04:02 PM, Ralph Katz wrote:

On 5/30/20 3:52 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
...

*PROBLEM*
As package is not installed, that directory does *NOT* exist.

Where to find required documentation on the web?

NOTE BENE
This post is about man pages as a class.



apt show debian-goodies
...
debman - Easily view man pages from a binary .deb without extracting
    [man, apt* (via debget)]

So...  ~$ dman packagename   # will fetch the manpages as though they
were local.

Regards,
Ralph



Thank you. Looks interesting.
1st didn't work even after installing debian-goodies.
Suspect operator. Leaving now. will pursue in morning



Try the online manuals at https://manpages.debian.org/ 
 .



--


*...Bob*

Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state

[Tom Dial]

On 6/1/20 00:28, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>On Du, 31 mai 20, 20:52:06, Tom Dial wrote:
>>
>> Moreover, ZFS is not DFSG and GPL compliant, and quite a few
>> users would avoid it because of that.
>
>ZFS is licensed under the CDDL[1], which is both free (as in freedom)
>and DFGS *compliant*.
>
>It is also *incompatible* with the GPL, which means distributing a Linux
>kernel (GPL) including the ZFS modules is possibly illegal[2].

I knew this, but overlooked that the relevant packages are in contrib,
presumably indicating their DFSG compliance.

Thank you for the correction.

TDD

>
>End users however are well within their rights (freedom 0 and 1)[3] to
>use this combination, as long as they don't share it with anyone else
>(freedoms 3 and 4)[3].
>
>[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Development_and_Distribution_License
>[2] As far as I know this was never tested in court
>[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Free_Software_Definition
>
>Hope this explains,
>Andrei
>--
>http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

Re: Debian man pages have annoying feature(sic)

[l0f4r0]

Hi,

2 juin 2020 à 00:02 de rowl...@cloud85.net:

> On 06/01/2020 04:02 PM, Ralph Katz wrote:
>
>> apt show debian-goodies
>> ...
>> debman - Easily view man pages from a binary .deb without extracting
>>  [man, apt* (via debget)]
>>
>> So...  ~$ dman packagename   # will fetch the manpages as though they
>> were local.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ralph
>>
> Thank you. Looks interesting.
> 1st didn't work even after installing debian-goodies.
> Suspect operator. Leaving now. will pursue in morning.
>
Are you speaking of debman? If so I suspect you forgot the last part with the 
command you want its manpages.
In short, you have multiple possibilities:

dman cmd
debman -f local_package.deb cmd
debman -p package cmd
debmany package|local_package.deb

Best regards,
l0f4r0

Re: OT: the art of reviewing unix log files

[davidson]

On Mon, 1 Jun 2020, l0f...@tuta.io wrote:
[dd]

Having an appropriate tool helps a lot:
https://lnav.org/


 lnav - ncurses-based log file viewer
  The log file navigator, lnav, is an enhanced log file viewer that
  takes advantage of any semantic information that can be gleaned from
  the files being viewed, such as timestamps and log levels.  Using
  this extra semantic information, lnav can do things like
  interleaving messages from different files, generate histograms of
  messages over time, and providing hotkeys for navigating through the
  file.  It is hoped that these features will allow the user to
  quickly and efficiently zero in on problems.

Thank you. That looks cool.

Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state

[Victor Sudakov]

David Wright wrote:
> On Sun 31 May 2020 at 16:28:34 (+0700), Victor Sudakov wrote:
> > David Wright wrote:
> > > On Fri 29 May 2020 at 21:57:06 (+0700), Victor Sudakov wrote:
> > > > David Wright wrote:
> > > > > Finally,   pkg delete -a   sounds like something from the abattoir,
> > > > > rather than anything you'd do to a pet (to use your analogy).
> > > > 
> > > > It's not as terrible as it sounds ;-) It's more from a vet clinic than
> > > > from a slaughterhouse. You don't lose configs, you don't lose network
> > > > connectivity or remote access during this procedure. You can save a list
> > > > of installed packages before deleting them, and reinstall only those you
> > > > know you need.
> > > > 
> > > > Unfortunately, the FreeBSD package system is not as mature as DEB or
> > > > RPM, therefore until very recently the "pkg delete -a" procedure has
> > > > been required to get rid of the dependencey hell.
> > > 
> > > OK, that sounds more like what people do on Windows systems, where
> > > there's a reset option, except that on Windows you can, ISTR, lose
> > > all your own files if they're under C:.
> > 
> > Since what version does Windows have a reset option?
> 
> No idea. The last version of Windows that I used was IIRC 3.11.
> I parted company when W95 came with "DOS" 7 rather than a
> successor to DOS 6.22.

Ah, I thought you knew something I did not. Then no, Windows still does
not have a reset option.

> > For dozens of
> > years, literally, Windows has been notorious for leftovers of removed
> > programs remaining in the "base system" and causing unexpected effects.
> > There were even commercial products on the market to purge those leftovers.
> 
> You're way ahead of me on Windows, then. I just know what I've seen,
> and what I saw was this:
> 
> Chapter 3. Lenovo OneKey Recovery system
>   The Lenovo OneKey Recovery system is software designed to back up and
>   restore your computer. You can use it to restore the system partition to its

Such things are present in some laptops, but they are not part of
Windows per se, they are developed by equipment manufacturers. Usually
they just extract an OEM image of Windows from some recovery partition
in case a user renders his/her system unbootable, as was verbosely
quoted below.

[dd]

> 
> > FreeBSD is different in this respect. No part of third-party software
> > ever gets into the base system (unless you install something manually
> > and incorrectly).
> 
> This has already been pointed out, that Debian's installed system is
> an individual outcome, not some sort of mandated selection.
> 
> > And of course you don't lose any user data if you run 
> > "pkg delete -a"
> 
> I didn't know we were discussing user data at all.

Apparently we were. Let me quote your own words among others: 
"... ISTR, lose all your own files if they're under C:"

> 
> > > Debian doesn't work that way: you can remove packages from the system
> > > at will in a controlled manner. Isn't that what sysadmins do?
> > 
> > Well, I was not feeling particulary sysadmin-ish about the desktop
> > system I wanted to cleanup.
> 
> How you feel about it can't alter the fact that reverting a system by
> removing packages is a sysadmin-ish process: you administering the
> system.

This is more of a terminological question. Is a user installing or
removing GIMP of FireFox really administering a system? Some
administrative tasks are easy enough to be performed by users, and maybe
(just maybe) the removal of extra software should be easy enough
to be user-serviceable (i.e. not carry the risk of killing the system
itself, or require sysadmin knowledge and reading of manual pages).

[dd]

> > 
> > Is the /usr/sbin/policy-rc.d method still the official supported one of
> > disabling this behavior when it is not desirable?
> 
> It's many years since I ran servers in what one might call "hostile"
> environments, so the current situation suits me, and I don't keep up
> with discussions like those in
> https://manpages.debian.org/experimental/policy-rcd-declarative/policy-rc.d-declarative.8.en.html

It's an interesting development, I'm positively interested. Do you know
if I can somehow subscribe to see what's happening in this direction?

-- 
Victor Sudakov,  VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN
2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/


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Virtualize a Debian system within Manjaro

[Victor Sudakov]

Dear Colleagues,

There is an office where the standard desktop OS is Manjaro (a
clone of Arch Linux). There is not much choice actually.

I don't very much like Manjaro's packaging system and its lack of many
essential packages in binary format. When I need something as simple as
codesearch or apg or dateutils, it tries to compile them.

Willing to run a Debian instance within Manjaro, what's my best choice? 

The easiest thing that comes to mind is installing VirtualBox in
Manjaro, but are there less resource-intensive and GUI-dependent
options? Maybe some kind of chroot or container?

-- 
Victor Sudakov,  VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN
2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/


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[Kamil Jońca] Virtualbox vs qemu/virt-manager

[Kamil Jońca]

(Previously sent from different address, but seems that onet.pl has a
problem with this list. Sorry for possible copy)



Hi.

Please do not treat this as flame or sth.
I used Virtualbox so far on my desktop box.
Virtual machines are generally Windows (10,8.1,7, and ever ancient NT 4.0
:) )
I have been wondering for some time on migration to qemu.
I tried to run test windows 8.1 guest and it looks promising.
What I want:
1. isolated network for guests - no problem, already configured.
2. sharing folders between host and guest -  in virtualbox guest
additions has such functionality, but it is ok to me use samba on host
and mount volumes from guest.
3. shared clipboard - after installing client additions it worked.

Things I couldn't do: keystrokes and full screen with keys.
In virtualbox I am used to turn off machine by pressing "right_ctrl+H", show 
options
by 'right_ctrl+Home', and so on, but I do not found how in virt-manager some key
combination make view full-screen or send shutdown signal to guest.
Is it even possible?

Another question is graphics performance. Does anybody test/compare it in normal
daily desktop  use? 
KJ

-- 
-- 
http://stopstopnop.pl/stop_stopnop.pl_o_nas.html

Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 02 iun 20, 11:03:48, Victor Sudakov wrote:
> David Wright wrote:
> > 
> > It's many years since I ran servers in what one might call "hostile"
> > environments, so the current situation suits me, and I don't keep up
> > with discussions like those in
> > https://manpages.debian.org/experimental/policy-rcd-declarative/policy-rc.d-declarative.8.en.html
> 
> It's an interesting development, I'm positively interested. Do you know
> if I can somehow subscribe to see what's happening in this direction?

The Debian Package Tracker[1] supports "subscribing" to source packages, 
to receive various updates about the package (bugs, uploads, testing 
migration, etc.).

Most Debian packages have their source code on Salsa[2], which is 
Debian's Gitlab instance. Since policy-rcd-declarative is a "native" 
package, that is also the upstream source.

[1] https://tracker.debian.org
[2] https://salsa.debian.org

Hope this helps,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: Syntax regarding "Exec" instruction in .desktop files

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 01 iun 20, 20:33:28, l0f...@tuta.io wrote:
> 1 juin 2020 à 20:03 de andreimpope...@gmail.com:
> >
> > Question for you: how much would it have taken you to write that into a 
> > script compared to the time you spent trying to get the quoting right?
> >
> HaHa, of course the latter is much more time-consuming than the former 
> BUT the former makes me more knowledgeable.

Some knowledge is more useful that other. Given limited time, in my 
opinion, it makes sense to (try to) pick the useful one[1].

> A workaround/bypass expedites the issue for sure and can sometimes be 
> satisfying when particularly clever, but it prevents you from 
> understanding the machinery.
>
> I tend to implement workaround when everything else fail.

In this particular case I consider the script option to be the optimal 
one, not a workaround, if only because it's easier to maintain (a proper 
script has structure and comments).

Unless you exercise your knowledge of quoting regularly you might find 
that months later, if you need to tweak or fix that Exec= line you have 
to re-learn what you did now.

Your system, your rules :)

[1] for me that means "with practical applications"

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: Virtualize a Debian system within Manjaro

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 02 iun 20, 11:14:25, Victor Sudakov wrote:
> Dear Colleagues,
> 
> There is an office where the standard desktop OS is Manjaro (a
> clone of Arch Linux). There is not much choice actually.
> 
> I don't very much like Manjaro's packaging system and its lack of many
> essential packages in binary format. When I need something as simple as
> codesearch or apg or dateutils, it tries to compile them.
> 
> Willing to run a Debian instance within Manjaro, what's my best choice? 
> 
> The easiest thing that comes to mind is installing VirtualBox in
> Manjaro, but are there less resource-intensive and GUI-dependent
> options? Maybe some kind of chroot or container?

'systemd-nspawn'. You can use 'debootstrap' to create the Debian chroot, 
it was explicitly created to run also on other distributions (it's 
written in shell).

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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