Re: Newbie friendly security and firewall docs (cookbook?)
On Wed, 08 Oct 2014 16:08:05 -0700 koanhead wrote: > >> > >> Any service you're not currently using should be disabled. Any > >> service you won't use should not be installed. > > > > Yeah. But ;/ The devil is in the details. > > Where is a list of services. > There's one at /etc/services. It's a list of 'well-known' services and > their associated ports, not a list of things which are installed or > running. I think this is an OS language issue, Windows refers to daemons as 'services'. Oh, and Windows also has an etc\services list, of the IP services... To the OP, good luck with finding out what daemons are 'essential'. I can remember when I used to know what all the daemons did... -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009095027.48866...@jresid.jretrading.com
Re: question about systemd
On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 22:36:46 -0400 Steve Litt wrote: > On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 19:58:13 -0400 > James Ensor wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I don't have a strong opinion about systemd one way or the other, > > but even after all of the debate and discussion that has been going > > on, it was still not clear to me if systemd is something that is > > required to be run, or if it's just a default init system that can > > be changed. > > > > So I went ahead and installed sysvinit and purged systemd so see if > > something bad (tm) would happen, but as far as I can tell my system > > is running fine. The only two things that changed are (1) > > network-manager has been removed, so I'm using wicd instead for > > network management, and (2) suspend from xfce no longer works so I > > installed acpi-support to enable suspend. But everything else seems > > to be working just fine. System is Debian Jessie amd64, and I'm > > using Xfce4. > > > > So I guess my question is what's all the hubbub? > > > > James Ensor > > James, > > Please, please, *please* write down a detailed article on exactly > how you did this. I'll help you if you'd like --- I write for a > living, a lot of it tech writing. > > If what you did works for everybody when Jessie goes stable, you've > just singlehandedly ended this whole argument. If you want to > collaborate on this article, I'll throw an extra hard disk in my > experimental box to tech edit your instructions. > > This just might be good news. > No, I have at least three Sids running on sysvinit. But my present workstation is a clone of one of them, because it was just getting too unstable to actually use with systemd, and I installed systemd on this one as early as possible. I've reverted to sysvinit on the old installation, and nothing obvious is broken, but as I don't now use it in anger, I can't really tell. We've had the instructions to revert on this list recently, but it's basically a matter of installing systemd-shim and sysvinit-core (assuming you have a system which once ran on sysvinit) and hunting down the grub instructions to boot with systemd. I did wonder why this didn't seem to work on the old workstation installation, until I realised that the new installation was a new hard drive on the same machine, and I'd just updated the grub which wasn't booting the machine... My USB hard drive installation and my netbook both have systemd because I use a 3G dongle with them, and Network Manager had stopped talking to Modem Manager without dbus working under systemd. Possibly there's an alternative way to do this, but so far I haven't really had the time to find out. Mobile dongles are a pain at the best of times, I don't actually have to hunt down usbmodeswitch any more, but it's still a case of not being (too badly) broke... And I have an old laptop and a virtual installation on a Windows laptop, both on sysvinit. But both exist for a small set of purposes, and have nothing like the range of software on my workstation, so I don't know what they tell us. They also only get upgraded occasionally, so they may already be dead computers walking... I think the real issue is that nobody likes maintaining sysvinit scripts. It's quite right that the job of running a piece of software should be the responsibility of the upstream software writers, not the distribution package maintainer, but the very existence of nasty complicated sysvinit scripts surely means that systemd must somehow accomplish the same things. If some of the complications of the init script could be pushed back into the application code, I'd have thought that would have been done long ago. Conversely, if a few systemd functions can replace the init script, then surely the script was over-complicated to start with. And if the widespread use of systemd elsewhere means that upstream writers *have* to take on much of the job that an init script used to do, the init script could be greatly simplified, in some cases to a generic one. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009094502.5579d...@jresid.jretrading.com
Re: [exim4] mixed up about terminology
On Thu, 9 Oct 2014 18:35:22 +1300 Chris Bannister wrote: > On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 07:41:06PM +0100, Joe wrote: > > Even fetchmail connects to the MTA on its own host by SMTP. > > How have you got yours configured? fetchmail connects using the pop3 > protocol in my configuration. > Yes, and it then passes on the mail to the system MTA using SMTP, by default. It doesn't have to, it can also use sockets. To move the mail to another machine, particularly a non-*nix one, it's easiest to stick with SMTP. If you're mixing directly-received email with POP-collected email, again SMTP is the simplest interface, all incoming email will be processed in the same way. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009100059.6a420...@jresid.jretrading.com
Re: Newbie friendly security and firewall docs (cookbook?)
On Wed, Oct 08, 2014 at 05:58:53PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 06:18:09 +1000 > Stuart Longland wrote: > > > > The hard bit about things like firewalling, is that there is really a > > minimum technical understanding necessary to do it properly. > > You've got that right. Years ago, I despaired of ever understanding > iptables, and just put a pf firewall between the LAN and the Internet. > And although I find pf much more understandable than iptables, pf isn't > simple either. One of the first things you need to get used to is > what's "in" and "out". With pf, that's relative to the firewall, not > the browser. > > I couldn't imagine making firewalling simple, because there's so much > it does: Blocking packets, logging, pinholing with port forwarding, > NAT, and probably another hundred things I don't know about. And all > sorts of packets. > > If one wants simple firewalling, about the best you can hope for is > something like pfSense, but that's not all that simple either. Have a look at shorewall. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009091038.GQ21549@tal
Re: [exim4] mixed up about terminology
On Wed, 08 Oct 2014 22:41:29 -0400 Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 10/8/2014 8:17 PM, lee wrote: > > > > Ok, and what difference does this actually make? > > > > > > If you don't know the difference between an MTA and an MUA, there is > no way I can help you. > Humans generally do, the point is that another MTA doesn't know the difference, nor does it need to. Unless it's been programmed to measure timings, it can't even tell if it's a human talking to it with a telnet client. SMTP is SMTP. There are no special commands used to tell an MTA what type of entity is talking to it. An MTA will: a) deliver mail locally if the recipient has a mailbox on the host b) *relay* to another MTA, if appropriate security criteria are met c) refuse the message, on various grounds, at various stages of the SMTP transaction That's all. And it doesn't care whether the mail has come from a telnet client, a GUI email application such as Claws, another network MTA or a workstation's own MTA. Or an SMTP engine in a virus, for that matter. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009101438.2ca97...@jresid.jretrading.com
Re: XFCE4 Power Manager Brightness Panel Plugin
On 10/06/2014 09:41 PM, Jape Person wrote: On 10/06/2014 10:49 AM, Lars Noodén wrote: ... What needs to be added or configured to get a brightness slider or other brightness control for the backlight? ... I think at this version they switched from using a notification area applet for the power manager and eliminated the old display brightness applet from the items available for the panel. Try adding xfce4-power-manager-plugins to the panel. You should see a display brightness setting in the menu you get when you left-click on this item in the panel. I've also got xfce4-power-manager-plugins 1.4.1-1 installed. Adding it to the panel gives me only battery status. There should also be a checkbox on the Xfce Power Manager dialog's Display tab that might re-enable your display brightness buttons. ... I've rummaged around there again. There are four tabs in the power manager dialog (general, system, display, devices) and though some can turn off the screen or put the machine into hibernate or suspend, none seem to offer the option of changing the display brightness. Maybe it's in another package. Regards, /Lars -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54366dd4.5070...@gmail.com
Re: Newbie friendly security and firewall docs (cookbook?)
lee wrote: Richard Owlett writes: I'm aware of "Securing Debian Manual". I'm looking for more an introductory document. I'm not sure what you're looking for. Unfortunately that makes two of us. But I'm seeing a definition evolve as incoming replies nibble around the edge of my ignorance. It's a good idea to have at least a good basic understanding about how a firewall works before you set one up. From there, you could look at tools like shorewall. I perhaps know just enough to be dangerous. I think I can follow descriptions that tool-makers say about what their tool does. But I might not recognize that it does *NOT* do something I need. There's also a GUI application the name of which I forgot which allows you to create firewalls. I found it surprisingly good. Fwbuilder? There is a page (wiki?) which lists URLs of related tools. When I first came across it, I found the lack of adequate descriptions so severe as to make it useless. If it was a wiki page maybe I now know enough to select useful information from the URLs and add it to the wiki. I still have a very good tutorial that uses iptables and helps you to learn how to build a firewall. I've archived it for reference in 2003. I could send it to you by email if you like (760kB). YES. Please. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54367e69.1010...@cloud85.net
Re: question about systemd
On 10/09/2014 04:45 AM, Joe wrote: And I have an old laptop and a virtual installation on a Windows laptop, both on sysvinit. But both exist for a small set of purposes, and have nothing like the range of software on my workstation, so I don't know what they tell us. They also only get upgraded occasionally, so they may already be dead computers walking... I think the real issue is that nobody likes maintaining sysvinit scripts. It's quite right that the job of running a piece of software should be the responsibility of the upstream software writers, not the distribution package maintainer, but the very existence of nasty complicated sysvinit scripts surely means that systemd must somehow accomplish the same things. If some of the complications of the init script could be pushed back into the application code, I'd have thought that would have been done long ago. Conversely, if a few systemd functions can replace the init script, then surely the script was over-complicated to start with. And if the widespread use of systemd elsewhere means that upstream writers *have* to take on much of the job that an init script used to do, the init script could be greatly simplified, in some cases to a generic one. I don't think it was ever about init scripts, or init anything. It's political and always has been. If unsupported packages and unmaintained scripts aid purposeful vendor lock-in, then Debian maintainers are part of the problem. I hope that's not the case. I use an old firewall program, guarddog, that survived two release cycles and is still in Debian ports, after losing upstream development. I still run it with Squeeze libs and it works fine. People in Debian with a winners vs losers mindset seem to be promoting an agenda. That would be a sad day for Debian. All the energy arguing or forking Debian could be used to provide solutions and preserve choice for all users. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54367e29.2020...@ix.netcom.com
Update - Error Dialog
I've been seeing this dialog popping up (seems like at random) with "Could not get updates" - Failed to process request. Selecting the 'More details' dropdown shows 'Operation was cancelled'. I can close the dialog, and there doesn't seem to be any other issues. Is there a way to find out what is generating this? Input, as always, is greatly appreciated. -- Regards Jack Boston Tea Party, Coercive Acts, Powder Alarm, Revolution Lessons (Mistakes) not learned are bound to be repeated. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5436845b.50...@gmail.com
Re: killer bunny
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 9/10/2014 10:47 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > On 9/10/2014 10:40 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: >> Hi, >> >> $ sed 's/s.st.md/killer bunny/' * it looks like the filtering has been adjusted * re-sending The more I read about the use of this *special* package, the more I understand how deep this is as a disaster. If you think otherwise, keep reading, the horror stories are there for everyone to see, even if new horror stories are /hidden/ from view by moderation and/or filtering! When you too are convinced that the package is a disaster, then you might have read enough -- until then please keep reading and to any DDs out there with a conscience, please make sure a GR gets up to address this ASAP or there will be a mass exodus of users when they are forced to live with this package at some time in the future -- for many, in the meantime, they'll manage to avoid it, at least until they can't possibly avoid it. The default gnome desktop is going to make it harder to ignore and much more likely to provide many more horror stories. I can't be more blunt than that. THIS IS A COMPLETE DISASTER WAITING TO HAPPEN. Cheers A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ2hb0ACgkQqBZry7fv4vvG0QEAyJQgq0RIi1VZn1s0AeQ/huIF mZANaqNHc2Qw5ghllLcBAIuc4lfQtrdAZst1/qhtcNzBHK+tdPQW7fFgiuowLbp6 =O5cs -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543685c0.6080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: XFCE4 Power Manager Brightness Panel Plugin
On 10/09/2014 07:13 AM, Lars Noodén wrote: On 10/06/2014 09:41 PM, Jape Person wrote: On 10/06/2014 10:49 AM, Lars Noodén wrote: ... What needs to be added or configured to get a brightness slider or other brightness control for the backlight? ... I think at this version they switched from using a notification area applet for the power manager and eliminated the old display brightness applet from the items available for the panel. Try adding xfce4-power-manager-plugins to the panel. You should see a display brightness setting in the menu you get when you left-click on this item in the panel. I've also got xfce4-power-manager-plugins 1.4.1-1 installed. Adding it to the panel gives me only battery status. So when you left-click on that applet's icon in the panel, the only thing displayed in the menu dropdown is the battery status? I get an indicator for the main battery, the battery on the wireless mouse, the battery on the wireless keyboard, a Display Brightness slider bar, a checkbox for Presentation Mode, and a line called "Power Manger settings..." which brings up the Xfce Power Manager dialog. There should also be a checkbox on the Xfce Power Manager dialog's Display tab that might re-enable your display brightness buttons. ... I've rummaged around there again. There are four tabs in the power manager dialog (general, system, display, devices) and though some can turn off the screen or put the machine into hibernate or suspend, none seem to offer the option of changing the display brightness. Maybe it's in another package. On the Display tab of the Xfce Power Manager dialog I have a checkbox fo "Handle display power management which has set of sliders under it for controlling the timing for blanking, sleeping, and switching off. Under that is a section called Brightness reduction which the timing and degree of brightness reduction of the panel for "on battery" and "plugged in" status. There are so many possible issues to look for. I mean there is the question of dependencies and recommends, then the involvement of acpi / acpid, upower, and polkit. If I had this problem, I'd start aptitude in interactive (ncurses) mode and examine each involved entity to see if all of its recommends were present on the system. Regards, /Lars I'm sorry I haven't been able to help. Regards, Jape -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54369376.7030...@comcast.net
Re: question about systemd
On 10/8/2014 10:36 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > If what you did works for everybody when Jessie goes stable, you've > just singlehandedly ended this whole argument. Not really. Just because it can be done easily now, doesn't mean it will be as easy - or even possible - a year or more from now - and I think *that* is the overriding concern of people who express legitimate concerns. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543698cf.9050...@libertytrek.org
Re: question about systemd
Tanstaafl writes: > Just because it can be done easily now, doesn't mean it will be as > easy - or even possible - a year or more from now - and I think *that* > is the overriding concern of people who express legitimate concerns. That, and the fact that there will be many "special cases" where it won't work as well as many "special cases" where Systemd won't work. I fear that this is going to be a headache for years. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87wq89ti7c@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: question about systemd
On Thu, 9 Oct 2014 09:45:02 +0100 Joe wrote: > I think the real issue is that nobody likes maintaining sysvinit > scripts. It's quite right that the job of running a piece of software > should be the responsibility of the upstream software writers, not the > distribution package maintainer, but the very existence of nasty > complicated sysvinit scripts surely means that systemd must somehow > accomplish the same things. > > If some of the complications of the init script could be pushed back > into the application code, I'd have thought that would have been done > long ago. Conversely, if a few systemd functions can replace the init > script, then surely the script was over-complicated to start with. And > if the widespread use of systemd elsewhere means that upstream writers > *have* to take on much of the job that an init script used to do, the > init script could be greatly simplified, in some cases to a generic > one. Here's where casting a wider net solves a lot of the problem. Yes, I've always considered init scripts to be spooky. And *one* way around them is systemd, if you want its problems. I suppose another way around them could be the upstream people somehow sewing run functionality into their code, but that complicates their code and makes their code entangled, just like systemd. Me, I'm a huge fan of daemontools for starting and maintaining a lot of my processes that don't need to start at the very first hint of boot. "Init scripts" (shellscript called run) for daemontools are very simple shellscripts to run them, with *no* code for stop, reload, etc, because daemontools' svc command does all that stuff. I think if you wanted daemons runlevel specific, you'd need to write that into the daemontools run script, but I'm not sure how many people still use runlevels anyway. Most desktop people always boot to 5, and it wouldn't violate the sensibilities of server people to boot to 3 and then run startx, if they wanted GUI. And of course, nosh could replace sysvinit or the PID 1 portions of systemd or upstart with a daemontools superset. By the way, I just read on the nosh web page that they can provide "nosh-systemd-services_1.7_amd64.deb", which supposedly supports nosh in daemontools compatibility mode under systemd. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009105808.2b771...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: question about systemd
Hi. On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 22:36:46 -0400 Steve Litt wrote: > If what you did works for everybody when Jessie goes stable, you've > just singlehandedly ended this whole argument. That's a short-term solution at best. Because of: 1) Jessie isn't stable yet. Moreover, it's not even in freeze. Hence, if it works now - nobody will guarantee it'll work tomorrow. 2) There are certain desktop environments that basically require that-pid1-process. And one of those desktop environments is set as a default one currently at d-i. Hence, such solution will require one to stop using certain DEs (no big loss in case of GNOME3, IMO, but still). 3) There's policykit issue, which was helpfully outlined by OP. This privilege escalation suite crept into far too many GUI tools, including XFCE. And currently it's *conveniently* broken if one does not use that-pid1-process. So, if one is willing to do all it takes to remove said-pid1-process from the typical server installation - it's doable. But from the desktop one - it's much harder. Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009191232.a78ab132d4df2d95b1ade...@gmail.com
Re: question about systemd
On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 10:16:47 -0400 Tanstaafl wrote: > On 10/8/2014 10:36 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > If what you did works for everybody when Jessie goes stable, you've > > just singlehandedly ended this whole argument. > > Not really. > > Just because it can be done easily now, doesn't mean it will be as > easy > - or even possible - a year or more from now - and I think *that* is > the overriding concern of people who express legitimate concerns. I see your point, Tanstaafl. Let me restate... "If what you did works for everybody when Jessie goes stable, you've just singlehandedly reduced the urgency of this whole argument." It gives us time. Time to see if what I, and probably you, suspect of Red Hat, comes true, and if so, will Linux people rebel or go along. It gives us time to explore other other options, be it non-systemd distros, *BSD, or *ugh* Mac. It gives us time to see just how bad systemd will be technically, with everything interconnected. Time to see how one bad dbus-using program will bolix up the whole computer. It's quite a bit better than "You must either ditch Linux, use systemd, or use incredibly old software, by spring 2015." You're right: In an ideal world, hoop-jumps like this never would have been necessary. But in late 2014, at least James' process, if it works broadly, gives us some breathing room. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009113710.0abc8...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: question about systemd
* On 2014 09 Oct 10:20 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > I think if you wanted daemons runlevel specific, you'd need to write > that into the daemontools run script, but I'm not sure how many people > still use runlevels anyway. Most desktop people always boot to 5, and > it wouldn't violate the sensibilities of server people to boot to 3 and > then run startx, if they wanted GUI. For the record, Debian uses run level 2 and leaves customization of 3 through 5 up to the local administrator. Until a manual change is made, any of the multiuser run levels will be the same in Debian. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009154032.ge2...@n0nb.us
Re: question about systemd
On 10/09/2014 04:45 AM, Joe wrote: On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 22:36:46 -0400 Steve Litt wrote: /snip/ We've had the instructions to revert on this list recently, but it's basically a matter of installing systemd-shim and sysvinit-core (assuming you have a system which once ran on sysvinit) and hunting down the grub instructions to boot with systemd. I did wonder why this didn't seem to work on the old workstation installation, until I realised that the new installation was a new hard drive on the same machine, and I'd just updated the grub which wasn't booting the machine... /snip/ I thought I read that systemd-shim is not being supplied anymore? --doug -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5436ac9f.2080...@optonline.net
Re: question about systemd
Doug writes: > I thought I read that systemd-shim is not being supplied anymore? Systemd-shim 8-2 is in both Jessie and Sid. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87siixtdy9@thumper.dhh.gt.org
systemd and initrd and /usr
Hi folks, I read, that systemd requires /usr and /usr/local mounted to initrd. How is that to be done? My system has a luks-encrypted partition, which is /dev/mapper/usr and when encryption is opened by enetering the correct passphrase, it will be mounted to /usr. I do not understand the policy behind systemd. As far as I know, It is historical in uinices, that each folder like /bin, /sbin, /var, /usr etc. is residing on its own partition. This is from the time of SCSI-drives (as you can have 16 drives on a controller). Does the new policy of systemd mounting to initrd sweping this rule away ? Or can I still use seperated partitions vor /var, /usr and /home with the new systemd? I know, it is working, yes, but I get errors because of /usr. Woulsd be nice, if someone could explain the new policies and why you do this what you do. Thank you very much for teaching me. Best Hans -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/8672149.SBbfX9I29u@protheus2
Re: question about systemd
Le 09/10/2014 17:12, Reco a écrit : > Hi. > > On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 22:36:46 -0400 > Steve Litt wrote: > >> If what you did works for everybody when Jessie goes stable, you've >> just singlehandedly ended this whole argument. > That's a short-term solution at best. Because of: > > 1) Jessie isn't stable yet. Moreover, it's not even in freeze. > Hence, if it works now - nobody will guarantee it'll work tomorrow. > > 2) There are certain desktop environments that basically require > that-pid1-process. And one of those desktop environments is set as a > default one currently at d-i. > Hence, such solution will require one to stop using certain DEs (no > big loss in case of GNOME3, IMO, but still). > > 3) There's policykit issue, which was helpfully outlined by OP. > This privilege escalation suite crept into far too many GUI tools, > including XFCE. And currently it's *conveniently* broken if one does > not use that-pid1-process. > > > So, if one is willing to do all it takes to remove said-pid1-process > from the typical server installation - it's doable. But from the > desktop one - it's much harder. > > Reco > > However I have server with special setting that today I handle with policy-rc.d I have not the slightest idea how I can have this setup with systemd nor any idea how to get any help for this. When I asked for doc, I was answered here "jusyt write it yourself"... Other setting, some very small PC used as router/FW. on a testing machine, I see systemd memory foot print to be 177096 VSS , 5556 resident 3100 shared. Thats HUGE. 8 Mo just for the init system, once th system is booted ? I am not sure I will consider debian an alternative fore those PCs once Jessie is stable... What can I do except express my problems, but then I see an army of zealots coming against me. for me in some cases systemd just made linux unusable. Sad, but true. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5436c33a.9040...@rail.eu.org
Re: question about systemd
Hi. On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 19:17:46 +0200 Erwan David wrote: > > So, if one is willing to do all it takes to remove said-pid1-process > > from the typical server installation - it's doable. But from the > > desktop one - it's much harder. > > > > However I have server with special setting that today I handle with > policy-rc.d > I have not the slightest idea how I can have this setup with systemd nor > any idea how to get any help for this. > > When I asked for doc, I was answered here "jusyt write it yourself"... That's one of the reasons I'm thinking to postpone that-pid1-process migration to jessie+1. I can understand the need of killing a useful tool for the greater cause (being upstream), but the thing that I don't understand is why kill the tool immediately if upstream wants it. And no, that isn't up to the discussion. I have no intention to start yet another that-pid1-process discussion thread. > Other setting, some very small PC used as router/FW. on a testing > machine, I see systemd memory foot print to be > 177096 VSS , 5556 resident 3100 shared. > > Thats HUGE. 8 Mo just for the init system, once th system is booted ? > I am not sure I will consider debian an alternative fore those PCs once > Jessie is stable... You haven't took into account journald, which uses /run (mounted in-memory) to write its' own blobs. With the limit of 1/2 of available physical memory by default. > What can I do except express my problems, but then I see an army of > zealots coming against me. > for me in some cases systemd just made linux unusable. Sad, but true. For instance, you can use the very same tools Debian provides you: equivs, dpkg-divert and dpkg-buildpackage. There's little that cannot be done with them if one needs to change some package behavior or dependencies. Requires playing a maintainer, but produces meaningful results in the end. Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009214855.e2fdea1b457ff2f67caf6...@gmail.com
Re: question about systemd
On 2014-10-09 19:48 +0200, Reco wrote: > On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 19:17:46 +0200 > Erwan David wrote: > > That's one of the reasons I'm thinking to postpone that-pid1-process > migration to jessie+1. I can understand the need of killing a useful > tool for the greater cause (being upstream), but the thing that I don't > understand is why kill the tool immediately if upstream wants it. And > no, that isn't up to the discussion. I have no intention to start yet > another that-pid1-process discussion thread. Which leads to the question why you are responding in this thread. >> Other setting, some very small PC used as router/FW. on a testing >> machine, I see systemd memory foot print to be >> 177096 VSS , 5556 resident 3100 shared. >> >> Thats HUGE. 8 Mo just for the init system, once th system is booted ? >> I am not sure I will consider debian an alternative fore those PCs once >> Jessie is stable... The memory requirements just to run apt and dpkg are much higher, just have a look at the files under /var/lib/apt/lists. > You haven't took into account journald, which uses /run (mounted > in-memory) to write its' own blobs. With the limit of 1/2 of available > physical memory by default. No, the size of /run defaults to 20% of the available RAM, and by default the maximum size of the journal is 10% of that. Cheers, Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87d2a1w15v@turtle.gmx.de
Re: Moderated posts?
On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 10:42 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > So if you've seen some of your posts not be posted, be aware that ... I often see debian-user messages in Gmail's spam box (that are not spam, this should be obvious otherwise i wouldn't mention it). This didn't use to happen but it seems their filters are crappier as of late (last few months). Cheers, Nuno -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cadqa9uyzzya-jaks+xckymb76jdr8cngpvvpvs9ritiryna...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Newbie friendly security and firewall docs (cookbook?)
On Thu, Oct 09, 2014 at 02:54:48AM +0200, lee wrote: > Richard Owlett writes: > > > I'm aware of "Securing Debian Manual". I'm looking for more an > > introductory document. > > I'm not sure what you're looking for. It's a good idea to have at least > a good basic understanding about how a firewall works before you set one > up. From there, you could look at tools like shorewall. > > There's also a GUI application the name of which I forgot which allows > you to create firewalls. I found it surprisingly good. Fwbuilder? > > I still have a very good tutorial that uses iptables and helps you to > learn how to build a firewall. I've archived it for reference in 2003. > I could send it to you by email if you like (760kB). If you send it to him please CC me. If you don't send it to him, please send it to me. Thanks. > > > -- > Hallowed are the Debians! > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87lhoqm59j@yun.yagibdah.de -- Bob Holtzman Giant intergalactic brain-sucking hyperbacteria came to Earth to rape our women and create a race of mindless zombies. Look! It's working! signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Moderated posts?
On Thu, 9 Oct 2014 19:47:33 +0100 Nuno Magalhães wrote: > On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 10:42 PM, Steve Litt > wrote: > > So if you've seen some of your posts not be posted, be aware that > ... > > I often see debian-user messages in Gmail's spam box (that are not > spam, this should be obvious otherwise i wouldn't mention it). > This didn't use to happen but it seems their filters are crappier as > of late (last few months). In this particular case, the posts in question weren't showing up in the archives either. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009145639.51932...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: question about systemd
On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 20:25:32 +0200 Sven Joachim wrote: > On 2014-10-09 19:48 +0200, Reco wrote: > > > On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 19:17:46 +0200 > > Erwan David wrote: > > > > That's one of the reasons I'm thinking to postpone that-pid1-process > > migration to jessie+1. I can understand the need of killing a useful > > tool for the greater cause (being upstream), but the thing that I don't > > understand is why kill the tool immediately if upstream wants it. And > > no, that isn't up to the discussion. I have no intention to start yet > > another that-pid1-process discussion thread. > > Which leads to the question why you are responding in this thread. There were some questions asked. Why else? > >> Other setting, some very small PC used as router/FW. on a testing > >> machine, I see systemd memory foot print to be > >> 177096 VSS , 5556 resident 3100 shared. > >> > >> Thats HUGE. 8 Mo just for the init system, once th system is booted ? > >> I am not sure I will consider debian an alternative fore those PCs once > >> Jessie is stable... > > The memory requirements just to run apt and dpkg are much higher, just > have a look at the files under /var/lib/apt/lists. 'Memory requirements'? Hardly. 'On-disk requirements' - that's something can I agree with. Or did they changed that in sid, so now /var/lib/apt/lists is mounted in memory too? And, last time I've checked, apt is not a part of init process :) Still, I took a look: $ du -shx /var/lib/apt/lists/ 53M /var/lib/apt/lists/ $ grep Total /proc/meminfo MemTotal: 16313292 kB SwapTotal: 16636796 kB VmallocTotal: 34359738367 kB HugePages_Total: 0 And I'd say your estimate is off by an order of magnitude. Because by your explanation (20% memory to /run * 10%) I should be prepared to lose 326265kb of memory to journald. > > You haven't took into account journald, which uses /run (mounted > > in-memory) to write its' own blobs. With the limit of 1/2 of available > > physical memory by default. > > No, the size of /run defaults to 20% of the available RAM, and by > default the maximum size of the journal is 10% of that. The mail I relied to implied that 8M RSS+SHR (for the init) is huge. I merely suggested that one should add journald blobs to that number as they're stored in memory anyway. I was off in numbers estimation, but still 8M RSS+SHR pales in comparison to wasting 2% of available memory to fancy blobs. Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009235131.042fe3d97d10fa8f95c19...@gmail.com
Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum
I have been contemplating the merits of mailing lists and comparing them with those of forums, thinking about whether there exists an alternative which provides the advantages of both. And then I came out with something new which does exactly that. Before I continue, allow me to quickly and partially list the advantages of each. If you're really impatient and prefer examples, head to the "usage example" at the bottom of the mail and skip the rest. Advantages of mailing lists: - Integrated with your mailing client - Filters - Work offline - Builtin PGP support - several others I haven't mentioned, but most of them stem from #1 Advantages of forums: - Far Better organized: They Have topics and sub-topics. While a seperate mailing list is required for each topic and subtopics do not exist. - New users get to see all threads immediately, while in mailing lists, a new user gets an empty list at first. - Posts can be edited (this may be a dis-advantage sometimes) - Far better moderation: Threads can be locked or removed at any time. Now, here's my proposal which provides all of the advantages I mentioned above. Instead of a mailing list, let there be an IMAP/POP account, let us call it i...@debian.org. However, it isn't a normal IMAP account: - It is public, and not a traditional private imap account. - It accepts all logins, regardless of the password typed. - It is read-only, users cannot directly modify it. - Users can only use it to read, they cannot send mails as i...@debian.org - It serves as the "forum". - The topics and sub-topics are simply folders and sub-folders. - In order to read the "forum", one simply adds the imap account to one's mail client. - In order to post something new, one simply replies to the relevant post (The FROM is one's own mail, and not i...@debian.org) This provides all the advantages of forums mentioned above PLUS all the advantages of mailing lists. That is: - Far Better organized: They Have topics and sub-topics. While a seperate mailing list is required for each topic and subtopics do not exist. - New users get to see all threads immediately, while in mailing lists, a new user gets an empty list at first. - (Optional)Posts can be edited (this may be a dis-advantage sometimes) - (Optional)Far better moderation: Threads can be locked or removed at any time. - Integrated with your mailing client - Filters - Work offline - Builtin PGP support - several others I haven't mentioned, but most of them stem from #1 ***Usage example*** Bob wants to participate in Debian discussions. Bob opens up Thunderbird and adds a new account: i...@debian.org. Bob's mailing client immediately populates the account with all the posts. Also, the account's inbox is divided into folders: Debian-user, debian-announce, etc. Bob can freely browse offline, etc. Now, Bob decides to send an email, he simply hits Reply, and makes sure the "from" is b...@example.com (It is, Thunderbord does this automatically for him because b...@example.com is his default account) Bob simply types his reply and sends it. Shortly after, i...@debian.org gets a new entry - bob's post. And everyone who's listening to i...@debian.org sees it, including bob himself. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum
Didn't you just describe Usenet? :-/ - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009204004.gl2...@n0nb.us
Re: Newbie friendly security and firewall docs (cookbook?)
On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 02:54:48 +0200 lee sent: > I still have a very good tutorial that uses iptables and helps you to > learn how to build a firewall. I've archived it for reference in > 2003. I could send it to you by email if you like (760kB). I would be very interested in this as well Lee. Thank you, Charlie -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education. __Wilson Mizener *** Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141010075912.72377700@taogypsy
Re: Newbie friendly security and firewall docs (cookbook?)
On Thursday 09 October 2014 21:59:12 Charlie wrote: > On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 02:54:48 +0200 lee sent: > > I still have a very good tutorial that uses iptables and helps you to > > learn how to build a firewall. I've archived it for reference in > > 2003. I could send it to you by email if you like (760kB). > > I would be very interested in this as well Lee. May I add myself to the list? Thank you. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201410092203.22627.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum
On Thu, 9 Oct 2014 15:40:04 -0500 Nate Bargmann wrote: > Didn't you just describe Usenet? > I was thinking that. I suppose there are people who don't know about Usenet. There certainly aren't many ISPs who throw in Usenet nowadays... -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009225227.13b60...@jresid.jretrading.com
Re: obnam speed
On 10/08/2014 10:04 PM, Joey Hess wrote: Philippe Clérié wrote: I'm curious to know how fast obnam is for other users. My home network is mostly Gigabit Ethernet. Measuring with iperf, the best speed I get is around 600Mbps, maybe 700Mbps depending on the computers involved. With obnam, speeds are anywhere below 50Mbps. Even with no other traffic on the network. obnam is heavily influenced by latency between the 2 computers. So using obnam across a transatlantic link will be slow, even if the link is fast. obnam is also not super-fast even when run locally, backing up to a local drive. I have not tried to get to the bottom of that; some of it could be due to gpg overhead, and some to innefficient use of the filesystem. Some quick benchmarks suggest obnam might only be saturating around 20% of the total available disk (or network) bandwidth, under optimal conditions (ie, backup to a SSD). Good to know... Thanks! So far, I've not had good experiences over the net. I can only use a 512Kbps uplink (the downlink is sufficient) and it has not worked for me so far. At least, not consistently and reliably. -- Philippe -- The trouble with common sense it that it is so uncommon. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54370545.2050...@gcal.net
Re: question about systemd
On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 10:36 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 19:58:13 -0400 > James Ensor wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I don't have a strong opinion about systemd one way or the other, but > > even after all of the debate and discussion that has been going on, > > it was still not clear to me if systemd is something that is required > > to be run, or if it's just a default init system that can be changed. > > > > So I went ahead and installed sysvinit and purged systemd so see if > > something bad (tm) would happen, but as far as I can tell my system is > > running fine. The only two things that changed are (1) > > network-manager has been removed, so I'm using wicd instead for > > network management, and (2) suspend from xfce no longer works so I > > installed acpi-support to enable suspend. But everything else seems > > to be working just fine. System is Debian Jessie amd64, and I'm > > using Xfce4. > > > > So I guess my question is what's all the hubbub? > > > > James Ensor > > James, > > Please, please, *please* write down a detailed article on exactly > how you did this. I'll help you if you'd like --- I write for a living, > a lot of it tech writing. > > If what you did works for everybody when Jessie goes stable, you've > just singlehandedly ended this whole argument. If you want to > collaborate on this article, I'll throw an extra hard disk in my > experimental box to tech edit your instructions. > > This just might be good news. > > SteveT > Again, I just don't see what the big deal is, or why you would need a detailed article about how to remove packages from debian. I'm not looking to wade into any arguments about systemd. I certainly do not claim to have solved any great crisis... Anyway, this is what I did: aptitude install sysv-rc sysvinit sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils aptitude purge systemd aptitude purge libsystemd-login0 libsystemd-daemon0 Just for kicks, I also purged cgmanager. I guess I like to live dangerously. Nothing bad seems to have happened. Like I said, the only thing I was using that was also removed was network-manager, but I don't really miss it. But, to get more to the point of my original question, there has been so much discussion about systemd here, but as far as I can tell very little of this discussion has been of practical use for a debian-user. Cheers, James -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cafxvjvdkrsfezq4aonbgt4ruoouj4cnr+t+ivxssb8g6sfq...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [exim4] mixed up about terminology
On Thu, Oct 09, 2014 at 10:00:59AM +0100, Joe wrote: > On Thu, 9 Oct 2014 18:35:22 +1300 > Chris Bannister wrote: > > > On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 07:41:06PM +0100, Joe wrote: > > > Even fetchmail connects to the MTA on its own host by SMTP. > > > > How have you got yours configured? fetchmail connects using the pop3 > > protocol in my configuration. > > > > Yes, and it then passes on the mail to the system MTA using SMTP, by > default. It doesn't have to, it can also use sockets. > > To move the mail to another machine, particularly a non-*nix one, it's > easiest to stick with SMTP. If you're mixing directly-received email > with POP-collected email, again SMTP is the simplest interface, all > incoming email will be processed in the same way. Have a look at the '-m' option. No MTA needed. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009223211.GE32705@tal
Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum
On 10/9/2014 5:52 PM, Joe wrote: > On Thu, 9 Oct 2014 15:40:04 -0500 > Nate Bargmann wrote: > >> Didn't you just describe Usenet? >> > > I was thinking that. I suppose there are people who don't know about > Usenet. There certainly aren't many ISPs who throw in Usenet nowadays... > As well as free Usenet servers. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54371406.6040...@attglobal.net
Re: question about systemd
On Thursday 09 October 2014 22:44:20 James Ensor wrote: > On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 10:36 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 19:58:13 -0400 > > > > James Ensor wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I don't have a strong opinion about systemd one way or the other, but > > > even after all of the debate and discussion that has been going on, > > > it was still not clear to me if systemd is something that is required > > > to be run, or if it's just a default init system that can be changed. > > > > > > So I went ahead and installed sysvinit and purged systemd so see if > > > something bad (tm) would happen, but as far as I can tell my system is > > > running fine. The only two things that changed are (1) > > > network-manager has been removed, so I'm using wicd instead for > > > network management, and (2) suspend from xfce no longer works so I > > > installed acpi-support to enable suspend. But everything else seems > > > to be working just fine. System is Debian Jessie amd64, and I'm > > > using Xfce4. > > > > > > So I guess my question is what's all the hubbub? > > > > > > James Ensor > > > > James, > > > > Please, please, *please* write down a detailed article on exactly > > how you did this. I'll help you if you'd like --- I write for a living, > > a lot of it tech writing. > > > > If what you did works for everybody when Jessie goes stable, you've > > just singlehandedly ended this whole argument. If you want to > > collaborate on this article, I'll throw an extra hard disk in my > > experimental box to tech edit your instructions. > > > > This just might be good news. > > > > SteveT > > Again, I just don't see what the big deal is, or why you would need a > detailed article about how to remove packages from debian. I'm not > looking to wade into any arguments about systemd. I certainly do not > claim to have solved any great crisis... > > Anyway, this is what I did: > > aptitude install sysv-rc sysvinit sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils > aptitude purge systemd > aptitude purge libsystemd-login0 libsystemd-daemon0 > > Just for kicks, I also purged cgmanager. I guess I like to live > dangerously. Nothing bad seems to have happened. > > Like I said, the only thing I was using that was also removed was > network-manager, but I don't really miss it. > > But, to get more to the point of my original question, there has been > so much discussion about systemd here, but as far as I can tell very > little of this discussion has been of practical use for a debian-user. This simple sanity is very useful! Thank you James. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201410092349.50293.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: question about systemd
* On 2014 09 Oct 17:51 -0500, James Ensor wrote: > Just for kicks, I also purged cgmanager. I guess I like to live > dangerously. Nothing bad seems to have happened. I am very curious how you dealt with policykit? Or do you not mount USB flash drives? I'm a bit fed up that mounting a USB flash drive from the Xfce desktop results in a mount that is read only for the mounting user. Writes require root privileges. I am running systemd, so all this *should* be automagically working and still my desktop is broken compared to a year or less ago. I've been patient expecting bugs to be fixed, but so far, this behavior remains. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009225949.ga3...@n0nb.us
Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum
Jerry Stuckle writes: > As well as free Usenet servers. Anybody can run a Usenet server. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87egugu94n@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Canon printers on wheezy (solved)
I've just upgraded to wheezy and my Canon LBP 7200Cdn stopped working. I used Radu Cotescu's script to try to reinstall it, but that failed and messed up apt-get, as one of his debs tries to install an outdated package. I've cracked the problems and got my printer working again. If anyone else is having similar troubles, you are welcome to get in touch and I'll give you the details of what you need to do. Cheers, Rob Hurle - Rob Hurle e-mail:rob1...@gmail.com Mobile: 0417 293 603 (Australia) 0948 243 538 (Vietnam) Telephone: (02) 6236 3895 28 Mirrormere Rd, Burra, NSW 2620, Australia
Re: implicit linkage (was: Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian)
2014/10/09 10:58 "lee" : > > Joel Rees writes: > > >> 2014/09/25 9:15 "lee" : > >> > >>> Joel Rees writes: > >> > >> > >> Hmm. So linkage is a result of complexity, > > > > What is complexity? > > > > Complexity is not a simple topic. :-\ Indeed. And one of the problems with computers is that people want to believe that computers can make complexities go away. Some complexities you can encapsulate or hide, or expose in an organized manner so that that are easier to deal with. Others, no. > >> and implicity is a result of > >> undeclaredness (or unawareness of declaredness). > > > > Sort of, but not quite. > > > > I would rather say, > > > > Implicitness is the lack of explicit declaration at the point > > where the linkage is expressed (or occurs). > > > > but I'm not sure that would be universally well understood, either. > > So implicitness isn't a result of something but a lack of explicitness. Generally, the things which are implicit are the things which are not said, but assumed to be understood: unspoken assumptions. Logical implication is a different thing, the process of deriving something from assumptions which have to be explicit. The base word "imply" can cause yet another kind of confusion. > Too much explicitness isn't good, either, because it'll get into your > way. Yeah, if you take the time to explicitly specify every parameter, you're going to have a hard time getting started coding. And specifying too many parameters can really slow an implementation down. > You could as well argue that linkage is basically a bad thing and > therefore should only be accepted for instances where it has significant > advantages which outweigh the disadvantages. At least we have a > tautology here. Oh! The problem of evil rears its head in mathematics. ;-/ (sorry.) But the hidden assumption that linkages can be completely done away with is where the logic goes wrong. Remove all externally accessible parameters and you can't even write the algorithm, much less implement it. > > Generally, reducing complexity and reducing linkage are related, but > > not necessarily. The degree to which linkage is implicit, or to which > > entanglement is hidden, is not necessarily dependent on the degree of > > either complexity or linkage. These can be independent variables, > > depending on the case in question. In some cases, you can even make > > them indpendent variables, when they didn't start out that way in your > > analysis. > > Hm, true ... Less linkage is easier to hide than more linkage. It makes > me think of a simple perl script. Such a script probably has an > unbelievable amount of implicit linkage. For example: > > perl -e 'print scalar localtime, "\n";' Well, that indeed illustrates a lot about complexity, and about hiding it, along with the hidden parameters that can turn into implicit linkage. (I'd like to say more about perl, but I don't have time.) > >> Since you cannot make things less complex, > > > > I'm not sure what you're trying to say. > > > > If you know you can make things more complex, you know that there must > > be things that can be made less complex. > > The less complicated things tend to be deprecated and to become > obsolete. Well, the sales crew definitely wants you to believe it. > 25 years ago, computers didn't have sound cards. You could possibly add > one, making your computer more complicated both in terms of total > complexity of hardware and software. Nowadays, a replacement for a > sound card is built in. Making things less complicated would mean to > omit or to remove the sound cards and their replacements. Who wants to > do that? On the one hand, sometimes you do remove most of the sound software, leaving just enough of the drivers to keep the sound card in a safely powered-down state. On the other hand, with sound-on-the-motherboard, many old sound card modes are unsupported. The overall number of externally accessible parameters, and the complexity of interaction of what remains is decidedly less that what all but the cheapest sound cards used to supply. Also, with all the stuff that is on the motherboard, you can often get rid of much of the circuitry that would otherwise drive the external busses, and simplify much of the driver software. You really can't say that progress is linear in the direction of increasing complexity. > > There are several kinds of complexity. > > > > One is purely subjective -- perceived complexity: "It's different, so > > it's complicated." or "I don't understand it, so it's complicated." We > > can talk about the parsing of a problem by the human brain, but it > > wouldn't help yet. We should set perceptions of complexity aside here. > > > > If you have a device with 100 inputs and 100 outputs, that's going to > > look complicated, right? But if all the inputs just feed directly to > > the outputs, it's not really all that complicated after all. This is > > one kind of complexity. Analysis is straightforward. >
Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian
On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 21:27:30 +0900 Joel Rees wrote: > Complexity is not a simple topic. :-\ Can I quote you on that? SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009194442.039b2...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: question about systemd
On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 6:59 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2014 09 Oct 17:51 -0500, James Ensor wrote: >> Just for kicks, I also purged cgmanager. I guess I like to live >> dangerously. Nothing bad seems to have happened. > > I am very curious how you dealt with policykit? Or do you not mount USB > flash drives? I'm a bit fed up that mounting a USB flash drive from the > Xfce desktop results in a mount that is read only for the mounting > user. Writes require root privileges. > policykit is not installed. I mount usb drives manually, with an entry in my fstab. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAFXvjvC68Gp83q9PNP_ZnSmMN=7KE-_iDgu=ntn+fyy_ryl...@mail.gmail.com
Re: implicit linkage (was: Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian)
On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 08:36:23 +0900 Joel Rees wrote: > Indeed. And one of the problems with computers is that people want to > believe that computers can make complexities go away. > > Some complexities you can encapsulate or hide, or expose in an > organized manner so that that are easier to deal with. Others, no. And many times, the complexities you create trying to hide other complexities are worse than the originals. Every single car I've owned that had 60K miles *and* had electronic doors and windows had at least one malfunctioning lock or window. I think another example is Windows. In the name of "User Friendly" or "Intuitive", they've made computer use a guessing game. I can't switch to an OpenBSD desktop because OpenBSD's virtual machines are badly broken, but in every other respect, if you want to see something that's predictable in its minimalism, look at OpenBSD. Every bit of configuration is easily done from an editor, and there's little complexity beyond the complexity of the original problem domain. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009195315.703d7...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: question about systemd
On Thu, 9 Oct 2014 17:59:49 -0500 Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2014 09 Oct 17:51 -0500, James Ensor wrote: > > Just for kicks, I also purged cgmanager. I guess I like to live > > dangerously. Nothing bad seems to have happened. > > I am very curious how you dealt with policykit? Or do you not mount > USB flash drives? I'm a bit fed up that mounting a USB flash drive > from the Xfce desktop results in a mount that is read only for the > mounting user. Writes require root privileges. > > I am running systemd, so all this *should* be automagically working > and still my desktop is broken compared to a year or less ago. I've > been patient expecting bugs to be fixed, but so far, this behavior > remains. Half the distros I've used couldn't mount flash drives. If systemd takes away that ability, screw it, I'll do what I've always done, have mount NOPASSORD in sudoers, and write a little shellscript, a couple keystrokes called by dmenu, that mounts and tells the mountpoint. Maybe even cd's to it within an xterm session. Of course, I run a one person desktop. No way I'd do that on a server. LOL, the more people bust old features putting in new features, the more I kludge. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009194216.06f54...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
How to network-install Jessie?
Hi all, How does one network-install Jessie? I always network-install Wheezy, and love it that way, but I've never found a way to network-install Jessie/Testing. Is there any way that doesn't involve installing Wheezy and then upgrading? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141009200426.040c8...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: How to network-install Jessie?
On Thu, 09 Oct 2014, Steve Litt wrote: > How does one network-install Jessie? I always network-install Wheezy, > and love it that way, but I've never found a way to network-install > Jessie/Testing. Is there any way that doesn't involve installing > Wheezy and then upgrading? 1) You use the jessie installer: https://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/ 2) you change the target release on the wheezy installer using advanced options->expert install, and choosing testing as your version. See https://wiki.debian.org/InstallFAQ for details. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com Grimble left his mother in the food store and went to the launderette and watched the clothes go round. It was a bit like color television only with less plot. -- Clement Freud _Grimble_ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141010003528.gb7...@rzlab.ucr.edu
Re: Fwd: Re: cron in UTC?
Don Armstrong writes: > On Thu, 09 Oct 2014, lee wrote: >> Tony van der Hoff writes: >> >> > GMT/BST; I just want cron to trigger tasks at a fixed time each day, >> > regardless of localtime. >> >> man cron: >> >>It is possible to use different time zones for crontables. See >>crontab(5) for more information. >> >> man 5 crontab: >> >>The CRON_TZ variable specifies the time zone specific for the > > [...] > > > This is only supported in cronie, a fork of cron which is not the > default cron in Debian (but is present in other distributions.) Sorry, I looked at the Fedora manpages and was unaware that they are using a different cron than Debian does. Wouldn't a script that changes the entries work? -- Hallowed are the Debians! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87fvewokfg@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: question about systemd
* On 2014 09 Oct 19:03 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > Half the distros I've used couldn't mount flash drives. If systemd > takes away that ability, screw it, I'll do what I've always done, have > mount NOPASSORD in sudoers, and write a little shellscript, a couple > keystrokes called by dmenu, that mounts and tells the mountpoint. Maybe > even cd's to it within an xterm session. > > Of course, I run a one person desktop. No way I'd do that on a server. > > LOL, the more people bust old features putting in new features, the > more I kludge. I just went ahead and went back to sysvinit-core and in the process started purging packages in Aptitude! At the end policykit, packagekit, rtkit, and systemd were excised and a whole host of other stuff I couldn't find a reason to keep. Guess what, Thunar now gives me read/write permission when mounting my flash drive due to an old line in /etc/fstab. However, it doesn't show up on the Xfce desktop. :-( I can live with that, however. I had gotten my wireless network adapter working through /etc/network/interfaces a few days ago so had already purged NetworkManager. This is on my main desktop machine and I still have all of this stuff installed on my laptop since I prefer convenience when using it. Here I want speed and very little in my way for development. All this new stuff just covered up and destroyed what I had working in the past. As I'm the only user, this is now acceptable behavior. At the very least, I am starting to look at all of the installed packages as to what they do for me, not to me. ;-) - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141010002917.ga6...@n0nb.us
Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian
2014/10/10 8:47 "Steve Litt" : > > On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 21:27:30 +0900 > Joel Rees wrote: > > > Complexity is not a simple topic. :-\ > > Can I quote you on that? Heh. I was quoting several teachers and co-workers, I don't know if anyone has figured out who said it first. It predates the Greek philosophers, however. 8-) But go ahead, if you think it's a good idea. Joel Rees Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens. All is a stream of text flowing from the past into the future.
Re: question about systemd
2014/10/10 9:03 "Steve Litt" : > > [...] > LOL, the more people bust old features putting in new features, the > more I kludge. And that sums the entire argument up nicely, perhaps. :-( Joel Rees Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens. All is a stream of text flowing from the past into the future.
Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum
On 10/9/2014 7:16 PM, John Hasler wrote: > Jerry Stuckle writes: >> As well as free Usenet servers. > > Anybody can run a Usenet server. > But if you set up your own usenet server, you won't have access to any of the newsgroups on usenet. Which will leave you very, very lonely. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54373ec3.5070...@attglobal.net
Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum
Jerry Stuckle writes: > But if you set up your own usenet server, you won't have access to any > of the newsgroups on usenet. Unless you arrange one or more feeds. That's how it works. It's a peer to peer system. I run my own Leafnode server for my wife and I. I currently purchase a feed from Newsguy. I've been doing this for decades. I used to be ihnp4!stolaf!bungia!foundln. If I had a static IP and lots of bandwidth I could set up a public server. That's irrelevant to the original posting, though. It's quite feasible to set up an island server with one or a few special-purpose newsgroups. It will do everything a Web forum does but better. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87a954tzaq@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum
On 10/9/2014 10:48 PM, John Hasler wrote: > Jerry Stuckle writes: >> But if you set up your own usenet server, you won't have access to any >> of the newsgroups on usenet. > > Unless you arrange one or more feeds. That's how it works. It's a peer > to peer system. I run my own Leafnode server for my wife and I. I > currently purchase a feed from Newsguy. I've been doing this for > decades. I used to be ihnp4!stolaf!bungia!foundln. If I had a static > IP and lots of bandwidth I could set up a public server. > Which means you need access to a different server. And that goes back to my original statement - there are free usenet servers out there. > That's irrelevant to the original posting, though. It's quite feasible > to set up an island server with one or a few special-purpose > newsgroups. It will do everything a Web forum does but better. > Sure. But such newsgroups have very limited exposure - and very limited participation. The groups which get participation are those carried by thousands of servers around the world. The (very) few exceptions are servers run by large companies such as Microsoft. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54374c6e.8000...@attglobal.net
Re: Prolem with external monitor
On 08/10/2014, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Mi, 08 oct 14, 15:23:55, Bret Busby wrote: >> >> Both scenario's involve the use od a VGA cable and connection to the >> VGA socket on each of the respective laptops. That it is using the >> supplied VGA cable, and not aDVI or HDMI cable, is not a problem for >> me, as I find the resolution to be good enough for me. > > Just a few tips: > > - in most cases the type of connection should not[1] affect the > resolution. DVI or HDMI are just better, because you avoid a useless > conversion from digital to analog and then back to digital. In my > experience you get a better quality image even if the resolution is > the same Bought an HDMI cable and installed that. ' Same result - external monitor not detected on 17" laptop running Debian 7, and works okay on 15" laptop running Debian 6 LTS. > - running an LCD monitor at anything else but its native resolution > is... sub-optimal (to put it mildly). A high resolution should not put > any strain on the kind of hardware you have. Even a Raspberry Pi can > handle 1920 x 1080. > > [1] VGA is also more sensible to distance, so if you are using a longer > cable (or an extension) try a shorter one. DVI or HDMI might also help > in this case. > See above. Can Debian 7 run an external monitor? -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. "So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means." - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts", written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cacx6j8mj83109numigixarmafltcuwcdy4t4awxx5c8jad7...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum
Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 10/9/2014 10:48 PM, John Hasler wrote: Jerry Stuckle writes: But if you set up your own usenet server, you won't have access to any of the newsgroups on usenet. Unless you arrange one or more feeds. That's how it works. It's a peer to peer system. I run my own Leafnode server for my wife and I. I currently purchase a feed from Newsguy. I've been doing this for decades. I used to be ihnp4!stolaf!bungia!foundln. If I had a static IP and lots of bandwidth I could set up a public server. Not for nothing, but at various times organizations have run a single usenet (actually nntp) server to support community newsgroups. Microsoft comes to mind - the run a couple of dozen newsgroups on various support topics (http://support2.microsoft.com/kb/150057) - just point your newsreader at their server. Netscape used to sell an enhanced news server, precisely to host access controlled private newsgroups - unfortunately that died with Netscape. Gatewaying debian-user to an nntp newsgroup hosted at debian.org might be a nice-to-have. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54375176.4080...@meetinghouse.net
Re: question about systemd
Reco wrote: > You haven't took into account journald, which uses /run (mounted > in-memory) to write its' own blobs. With the limit of 1/2 of available > physical memory by default. That's wrong by nearly 2 orders of magnitude.. journald avoids using more than 10% of the size of /run by default, and the size of /run is 20% of physical memory. So, on a system with 4 gb of memory, it uses not 2 GiB, but 77 MiB. Sep 29 13:35:43 darkstar systemd-journal[169]: Runtime journal is using 8.0M (max allowed 76.9M, trying to leave 115.4M free of 761.3M available → current limit 76.9M). A system with 128 MiB of memory would have 1.3 MiB used for the journal. That's less memory than the (non-shared) memory used by bash to log into such a low memory system. But if it did become a problem, there's a simple config file to tune it, which has an excellent man page. SystemMaxUse=, SystemKeepFree=, SystemMaxFileSize=, RuntimeMaxUse=, RuntimeKeepFree=, RuntimeMaxFileSize= Enforce size limits on the journal files stored. The options prefixed with "System" apply to the journal files when stored on a persistent file system, more specifically /var/log/journal. The options prefixed with "Runtime" apply to the journal files when stored on a volatile in-memory file system, more specifically /run/log/journal. The former is used only when /var is mounted, writable, and the directory /var/log/journal exists. Otherwise, only the latter applies. Note that this means that during early boot and if the administrator disabled persistent logging, only the latter options apply, while the former apply if persistent logging is enabled and the system is fully booted up. journalctl and systemd-journald ignore all files with names not ending with ".journal" or ".journal~", so only such files, located in the appropriate directories, are taken into account when calculating current disk usage. SystemMaxUse= and RuntimeMaxUse= control how much disk space the journal may use up at maximum. SystemKeepFree= and RuntimeKeepFree= control how much disk space systemd-journald shall leave free for other uses. systemd-journald will respect both limits and use the smaller of the two values. The first pair defaults to 10% and the second to 15% of the size of the respective file system. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Prolem with external monitor
On Friday 10 October 2014 04:24:55 Bret Busby wrote: > Can Debian 7 run an external monitor? Yes! Lisi P.S. I have done it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201410100636.52936.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Problem with external monitor
This will probably show as a new thread, due to me correcting a spelling error in the Subject field of the message. On 08/10/2014, Joe wrote: > On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 15:23:55 +0800 > Bret Busby wrote: > >> Hello. >> >> I have a 23" monitor, that I want to use with two of my laptop >> computers (not at the same time). >> >> I have a 15" laptop, with an i3 CPU, running Debian 6 LTS and GNOME2. >> >> With the external monitor connected and switched on, upon bootup, the >> external monitor is automatically operational, and, replaces the >> laptop display. >> >> That is good. >> >> The other laptop has a 17" display and an i7CPU, and is running Debian >> 7.x and LXDE. >> >> With that laptop, with the external monitor connected and switched on, >> upon boot up and during a boot session, the external monitor does not >> work, and, is apparently not visible to the computer. The laptop >> display is operational, and no signal appears to be going from the >> laptop. Synaptic shows lxrandr to be installed, but the exernal >> monitor is not detected. >> >> In Preferences -> Monitors, only one monitor is shown; the laptop >> display. >> >> I also tried logging in to a GNOME Classic session, but got the same >> result. >> >> Both scenario's involve the use od a VGA cable and connection to the >> VGA socket on each of the respective laptops. That it is using the >> supplied VGA cable, and not aDVI or HDMI cable, is not a problem for >> me, as I find the resolution to be good enough for me. >> >> How do I get the external monitor to be detected, and, work, with the >> Debian7/LXDE system? >> > > Something I would suggest you try soon is a different model of external > monitor. If you spend weeks fiddling about with drivers and then find > the VGA socket on this laptop simply doesn't work, you will feel > foolish, trust me on this. > > Something else to try would be booting up a live CD of a more > commercial kind, such as Ubuntu or preferably Knoppix, to find out: > a) if it works > b) if so, what drivers it is using > > Is the external monitor going into standby, by the way? I have an old > laptop and know of someone else's monitor which simply doesn't work > with it. The laptop VGA circuits want to see an active monitor > connected before they will power up, and the monitor wants to see a > live signal before it will come out of standby, or avoid going into > standby from switch-on... I haven't found any combination of switch-on > time and plugging that will actually allow them to work together, > though I presume there is a window of a few microseconds when they > would find each other. The laptop is fine with other monitors, the > monitor with other laptops. > I have downloaded Ubuntu 14.04.1 LTS amd64 iso, and tried that. One interesting observation, is that, with the 15" laptop running Debian 6 LTS, on bootup, all video output goes to the external monitor (and to only that monitor), and, with the 17" laptop running Debian 7 (and then Ubuntu 14.04.1 LTS), the ACER spalsh screen and the BIOS screen, go toonly the laptop monitor. That made me wonder whether either the BIOS or the graphics card, could not deal with the external monitor. However, with Unbuntu 14.04.1 LTS, which took 10-15 minutes (on an i7 CPU with 32GM RAM) to boot, the output started to appear on the external monitor, after the weird double icon with the equal sign at the bottom of the screen, so I got the Ubuntu word, with the simulated LED flashing things (a fake progree bar) appearing on both screens. At the end of the bootup, I have on the external monitor, a workspace (?) with a panel/taskbar, and no icons on the desktop, and, on the laptop display, I have a workspace with the dialogue box or window, with the Welcome thing, with the options to select the languge, and to select "Try Ubuntu" or "Install Ubuntu". In selecting "Try Ubuntu", I get a desktop on each of the two screens; the one on the external monitor does not have the two icons "Examples" and "Install Ubuntu 14.04.1 LTS", whereas the display on the laptop does include those two icons. I can not find how to get the pointer off the laptop display and on to the external monitor. In selecting (on the laptop display), the System Settings -> Displays, I get both monitors displayed. When I select , for "Built In Display", "Off", the laptop display goes off, for a short period, and all control goes to the external monitor, and then the laptop display comes back on, with the pointer and the "Launcher" (?)icons, all on the external monitor. After shuuting down the live session of Ubuntu 14.04.1.LTS and then booting up Debian 7, to find whether the booting into Ubuntu, had flicked some switch that would enable displayiong on the external monitor, in Debian 7, Ifound the system to be unchanged from the previous advised problem - no external monitor detected. In Debian 7.x, selecting (in LXDE) Preferences-> Monitor Settings, which shows only the laptop display being detected, and the exte
