Re: open source or free software?
On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 08:40:16AM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote: > What I'm really getting at is how do we explain it concisely to new people > and boost recognition of genuine free software. I didn't say "ban this or > ban that", I was just pointing out that many people are using their own > definition of open source. So, to that end, are there any examples of folks calling something "open source" and that thing using something other than an OSI-approved license? I think anyone who's aware of the concept tends to use the right term, at least as far as I can remember. People are either completely unaware of the concept and use "free" as a grab-bag for "freeware" (meaning closed-source or proprietary software that's gratis) as well as free sofware in the sense free software/open source advocates have in mind, or they're clued in enough to mean (and understand) what they say when they say "open source". In particular, "open source" is an easier terminology to use with folks who are new to the concept, as it avoids the whole "gratis versus libre" explication, which despite the best of intentions can come across as being somewhat pompous, or at least tediously hairsplitting, whereas "open source" is pretty unambiguous. Stallman says in http://tinyurl.com/3kqjz2r: However, the obvious meaning for the expression “open source software”—and the one most people seem to think it means—is “You can look at the source code.” I haven't ever encountered this interpretation. It sounds more like RMS is describing a "source license" here. Maybe there are people who confuse the two, but I have not noted them. I personally prefer the term "free software" and I'm happy to explain it to people, not least because I don't fear being seen as a relentless pedant. On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 09:11:02PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > If you want to avoid politics entirely, good luck finding a small cabin in > the woods where you can withdraw from all other humans. Which, I should > note, is also a political act. The only nit I'd pick with you is that my political statement was overtly political, versus something that suggests that it's simply trying to find clarity of communication but that's suspiciously like a talking point on the FSF document I linked in my first volley^H^H^H^H^H^Hreply. -- Mason Loring Bliss (( "In the drowsy dark cave of the mind dreams ma...@blisses.org )) build their nest with fragments dropped http://blisses.org/ (( from day's caravan." - Rabindranath Tagore -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140831073545.gd3...@blisses.org
Re: open source or free software?
On 31/08/14 09:35, Mason Loring Bliss wrote: > On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 08:40:16AM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote: > >> What I'm really getting at is how do we explain it concisely to new people >> and boost recognition of genuine free software. I didn't say "ban this or >> ban that", I was just pointing out that many people are using their own >> definition of open source. > > So, to that end, are there any examples of folks calling something "open > source" and that thing using something other than an OSI-approved license? I See the example in my original email. The license in question (the Crockford license[1]) is one of many licenses that are not OSI approved. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Crockford#.22Good.2C_not_Evil.22 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5402db10.4070...@pocock.pro
Re: open source or free software?
I don't feel the need to talk about "open soure" on depian-project at the moment. But if you do, don't forget the origins. A good summary is at http://oreilly.com/openbook/opensources/book/raymond2.html. It is really worth reading from first hand what the intentions of the Open-Source-campaign are. I especially like this bit: "It seemed clear to us in retrospect that the term "free software" had done our movement tremendous damage over the years. Part of this stemmed from the well-known "free-speech/free-beer" ambiguity. Most of it came from something worse--the strong association of the term "free software" with hostility to intellectual property rights, communism, and other ideas hardly likely to endear themselves to an MIS manager." And so I will stay with the communist term "free software". Werner -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140831105207.60d7a...@ginster.fritz.box
Re: open source or free software?
On 8/31/14, Werner Baumann wrote: > I don't feel the need to talk about "open soure" on depian-project at > the moment. But if you do, don't forget the origins. A good summary is > at http://oreilly.com/openbook/opensources/book/raymond2.html. It is > really worth reading from first hand what the intentions of the > Open-Source-campaign are. > > I especially like this bit: > "It seemed clear to us in retrospect that the term "free software" had > done our movement tremendous damage over the years. Part of this > stemmed from the well-known "free-speech/free-beer" ambiguity. Most of > it came from something worse--the strong association of the term "free > software" with hostility to intellectual property rights, communism, > and other ideas hardly likely to endear themselves to an MIS manager." :) That is funny. > And so I will stay with the communist term "free software". It seems to me the term "libre software" resonates reasonably unambiguously throughout 'the community'. Good luck getting the FSF to use that term though... there are many years of 'investment' in the term "free software" and it is embedded deeply in license terms, and documentation. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSQSPDdsv_JCPu9ethPXuDTHREkt=mutbwqytw_041f...@mail.gmail.com
Re: open source or free software?
On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 09:42:00PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > On 8/31/14, Werner Baumann wrote: > > I don't feel the need to talk about "open soure" on depian-project at > > the moment. But if you do, don't forget the origins. A good summary is > > at http://oreilly.com/openbook/opensources/book/raymond2.html. It is > > really worth reading from first hand what the intentions of the > > Open-Source-campaign are. > > > > I especially like this bit: > > "It seemed clear to us in retrospect that the term "free software" had > > done our movement tremendous damage over the years. Part of this > > stemmed from the well-known "free-speech/free-beer" ambiguity. Most of > > it came from something worse--the strong association of the term "free > > software" with hostility to intellectual property rights, communism, > > and other ideas hardly likely to endear themselves to an MIS manager." > > :) > > That is funny. > > > > And so I will stay with the communist term "free software". > > It seems to me the term "libre software" resonates reasonably > unambiguously throughout 'the community'. Good luck getting > the FSF to use that term though... there are many years of > 'investment' in the term "free software" and it is embedded > deeply in license terms, and documentation. > Hi Zenaan, No, in fact rms will quite happily use the libre word - wherever possible I use FLOSS - Free/Libre/Open Source Software - and emphasise that fact that it's not free of cost (or work - you still may have to check licence conditions/comply with linking/distribution restrictions) - but that the freedom is to modify, work with, fix bugs in ... FLOSS is a good word - even esr and Bruce Perens have come to appreciate that the OSD - based in turn on Debian's Free Software Guidelines - was, in retrospect a confusing factor and made things difficult. Hope this helps, AndyC > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: > https://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSQSPDdsv_JCPu9ethPXuDTHREkt=mutbwqytw_041f...@mail.gmail.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140831130554.ga5...@galactic.demon.co.uk
Re: open source or free software?
On 31/08/14 15:05, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 09:42:00PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: >> On 8/31/14, Werner Baumann wrote: >>> I don't feel the need to talk about "open soure" on depian-project at >>> the moment. But if you do, don't forget the origins. A good summary is >>> at http://oreilly.com/openbook/opensources/book/raymond2.html. It is >>> really worth reading from first hand what the intentions of the >>> Open-Source-campaign are. >>> >>> I especially like this bit: >>> "It seemed clear to us in retrospect that the term "free software" had >>> done our movement tremendous damage over the years. Part of this >>> stemmed from the well-known "free-speech/free-beer" ambiguity. Most of >>> it came from something worse--the strong association of the term "free >>> software" with hostility to intellectual property rights, communism, >>> and other ideas hardly likely to endear themselves to an MIS manager." >> >> :) >> >> That is funny. >> >> >>> And so I will stay with the communist term "free software". >> >> It seems to me the term "libre software" resonates reasonably >> unambiguously throughout 'the community'. Good luck getting >> the FSF to use that term though... there are many years of >> 'investment' in the term "free software" and it is embedded >> deeply in license terms, and documentation. >> > > Hi Zenaan, > > No, in fact rms will quite happily use the libre word - wherever > possible I use FLOSS - Free/Libre/Open Source Software - and emphasise FLOSS, DFSG, OSI - all these are acronyms and unfortunately acronyms are not great with the public at large. On the other hand, acronyms are usually the most explicit and hardest for people to hijack or redefine. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5403495f.1000...@pocock.pro
Generation of vcs snapshots on alioth
Hi, (fusion|g)forge has a feature that generates snapshot tarballs of all supported VCS every night. Alioth has many, many repositories and snapshot generation takes us several hours every day and it makes alioth really unresponsive. Therefore I disabled the feature in the morning. If you really rely on that feature (I don't hope so), please get in touch with me/us. Alex pgp0dn4bAug7G.pgp Description: PGP signature
Debian Maintainers Keyring changes
The following changes to the debian-maintainers keyring have just been activated: admwig...@gmail.com Full name: Andrew Page Added key: B42F6819007F00F88E364FD4036A9C25BF357DD4 ande...@mit.edu Full name: Anders Kaseorg Added key: 6A3C67D7F011900CC539248BDFF3AB374F16F73A b...@freebsd.org Full name: Benjamin Kaduk Added key: D96195E04D8045FF4160FD1728D9A6F364EB7512 daniel Removed key: 709F54E4ECF3195623326AE3F82E5CC04B2B2B9E j...@extundo.com Removed key: 0424D4EE81A0E3D119C6F835EDA21E94B565716F josueort...@debian.org.gt Full name: Josue Ortega Added key: 7733B328D2795F5BE2325ADD01509D5CAB4AFD3F m...@daniel-baumann.ch Added key: 8136ED25C7D67E92C74A429255CF1BF986ABB9C7 mkou...@palmtb.net Full name: Kouhei Maeda Added key: B8F286F62206360F7D4108172E8162547E37CE41 ond...@certik.cz Removed key: 57AD42ECB22F67D713AF1AB2290FBE52EEA07609 si...@josefsson.org Added key: 9AA9BDB11BB1B99A21285A330664A76954265E8C Debian distribution maintenance software, on behalf of the Keyring maintainers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/e1xogyi-0004qz...@franck.debian.org
