G3 Beige Tower install help
Greetings: I've been attempting to get Debian-PPC installed on this machine for several days now, without much luck. I've searched for an install 'how-to' and settled on the "G3-Beige" how to on the Debian Wiki. There is a lot of conflicting advice on installing on these old world machines in the wild, and it's quite confusing. Some say not to use Boot-X and to use quik instead for example. Which way is the debian way ? The instructions on the wiki aren't very relative to moi as I don't have any scsi drives in the box and don't have any to install. I do have an external scsi CD burner though. I have MacOS 9 installed in a 600 MB portion of the HDrive (12 GB), with the remaining formatted as Linux f/s by Apple's Disk Utility. I would appreciate if the experts here could help me out -- Here's what I've tried so far; Using the Debian-Etch-PPC net install CD, I booted up with my MacOS 9 CD. However when booted with system CD, it can't see the Debian Net install cd if I put it in the scsi CD drive. If I reverse this, and put the MacOS 9 in the scsi CD player, it boots fine, but sill doesn't see the Debian net install cd, in the onboard ata CD Drive. So, I can't start the install. I don't have a Linux workstation available to make boot floppies; Can these boot floppies be made in MacOS ? If so how ? All the instructions I've been able to grep assume that one has a Linux box handy to make boot floppies. Do I need to go the boot floppy route, or should I be able to boot with the MacOS system CD, and then mount the Debian net install on the other drive ? Suggestions/help welcome. Thanks ! -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto GPG Key fingerprint: 7E6D 855D 8C03 15E4 1B12 2418 A71C 96CD 6843 1C91 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 11:54:47AM -0700, Brad Boyer wrote: > On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 08:28:38PM +0200, Jos? JORGE wrote: > > As far as I know, G3 is not oldworld. > > The earliest G3 systems were oldworld. In particular, the beige PowerMac G3 > desktop systems and the first few models of PowerBook G3 are oldworld. Any > system made after the introduction of the iMac (the first newworld system) > would generally be newworld, such as the Blue & White PowerMac G3. As far > as I know, the basic key is that built-in USB ports equals newworld. That's my understanding as well. -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto http://sda2.freeshell.org GPG Key fingerprint: 7E6D 855D 8C03 15E4 1B12 2418 A71C 96CD 6843 1C91 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 08:28:38PM +0200, Jos? JORGE wrote: > A Wednesday 3 September 2008 14:22:01, Stephen Allen escreveu: > > I've searched for an install 'how-to' and settled on the "G3-Beige" how to > > on the Debian Wiki. There is a lot of conflicting advice on installing on > > these old world machines in the wild, and it's quite confusing. Some say > > not to use Boot-X and to use quik instead for example. Which way is the > > debian way ? > > As far as I know, G3 is not oldworld. My understanding is that all the beige G3's are old world, as well as the 1st generation PowerBook G3's. > > Using the Debian-Etch-PPC net install CD, I booted up with my MacOS 9 > > CD. > > However when booted with system CD, it can't see the Debian Net install cd > > if I put it in the scsi CD drive. If I reverse this, and put the MacOS 9 in > > the scsi CD player, it boots fine, but sill doesn't see the Debian net > > install cd, in the onboard ata CD Drive. So, I can't start the install. > > > > You should boot from the Debian Install CD to install it! It won't boot from the Install CD -- AFAIK a known issue with the old world boxen. -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto GPG Key fingerprint: 7E6D 855D 8C03 15E4 1B12 2418 A71C 96CD 6843 1C91 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 09:54:21PM +0200, Simon Vallet wrote: > Hi Stephen, Hey Simon, thanks for the help. > On Wed, 3 Sep 2008 12:22:01 +0000 > Stephen Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [ ...] > > I don't have a Linux workstation available to make boot floppies; Can these > > boot floppies be made in MacOS > > ? If so how ? All the instructions I've been able to grep assume that one > > has a Linux box handy to make > > boot floppies. Do I need to go the boot floppy route, or should I be able > > to boot with the MacOS system > > CD, and then mount the Debian net install on the other drive ? > > AFAICR you can't boot those systems using a standard install CD -- it > might have something to do with some parts of the boot code being > proprietary and as such not freely redistributable. Right > There are at least three ways to boot an Oldworld : quik, some utility > that piggy-backs on the MacOS bootloader (I can't recall the name), or > directly booting a COFF kernel image (I'm not even sure that one works > on the beige G3). BootX probably is the one that piggy-backs. > I personally use quik, but this might not be your best option : > if you want to go that route, search for posts similar to yours in the > archives -- I posted quite a lot of messages to the list at that time > (some years back, I fear). The MacOS utility is quite simpler to > install, but it requires MacOS, and is a bit of a hassle when you want > to update your kernel. OK I'll search the archives. My rather extensive Google searches didn't turn up anyting prior though from this list. Is it indexed by the Google machine ? You're using quik on a G3 ? If so could I trouble you to post a StepxStep ? > As for starting the installer, I fear you will have to use floppies > (yes, they still exist ;-)) -- look for something called "miboot", I > think that's what I used at that time. So miboot makes the floppies from MacOS ? I think that came with the copy of BootX I have here. What I don't understand, is that on booting from the MacOS install CD, the Debian Installer CD doesn't show as mounted in either of my other CD drives. At least one install article I read, indicated that installing from the Debian CD is possible that way. > Good luck, Thanks. :D -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto http://sda2.freeshell.org GPG Key fingerprint: 7E6D 855D 8C03 15E4 1B12 2418 A71C 96CD 6843 1C91 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 05:12:27PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> Stephen,
>
> I used to do quite a lot of this kind of stuff.
>
> Search the debian-powerpc and debian-boot archives for my name
> ("rbthomas") and "Boot-X". I posted (about Sarge timeframe) several
> "how-to" articles on using MacOS-9 and Boot-X to install Debian on a
> beige-G3-tower. It does not require boot floppies.
That's the machine I'm using the Rev. B tower 300 Mhz.
> If you can't find anything useful that way, send me some email off-list
> and I'll see if I can find something that will help you.
Thanks Rick, I'll take a look. It is indeed somewhat fun.
--
Regards,
S.D.Allen - Toronto
http://sda2.freeshell.org
GPG Key fingerprint:
7E6D 855D 8C03 15E4 1B12 2418 A71C 96CD 6843 1C91
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Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 12:32:43AM +0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hi Stephen, Hi Risto: > In your place, I would take the following route: > > In OS 9: > > (1) download BootX from > http://penguinppc.org/historical/benh/BootX_1.2.2.sit, and install it, > > (2) download Debian kernel and initrd from > http://ftp.nl.debian.org/debian/dists/etch/main/installer-powerpc/current/images/powerpc/netboot/vmlinux > and > http://ftp.nl.debian.org/debian/dists/etch/main/installer-powerpc/current/images/powerpc/netboot/initrd.gz, > and place them into :System Folder:Linux Kernels, OK I did this before, my error was that I didn't put the kernel and initrd in a directory called Linux Kernels in the top level of the system folder. So thanks for the clarification. > (3) place the Debian netinst CD into a CD drive, > > (4) Run BootX application (alternatively install BootX extension, and reboot). OK I did this, got a shell and then a kernel panic, and a reboot message for 3 minutes. Probably because of the kernel being in the wrong place eh ? > (5) When Bootx asks you to choose your OS, before doing so, press on > Options, and select the initrd (Use specified RAM disk) (with BootX > extension variant, you have to be careful to stop the clock from > counting down, this can be done by writing a space into More kernel > arguments field). You mean the ram disk is automatically set as default ? By space in the kernel arguments field, you mean to hit the space bar ? Excuse me if I'm being a little thick, it's the end of a long day. > (6) Press on Save to prefs, in case you don't succeed on first try, > and need to try again with a different command line, or the CD in > another drive. > > (7) Press on Linux, and hope the best. Thanks for the excellent instructions Risto. Great list ! -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto http://sda2.freeshell.org GPG Key fingerprint: 7E6D 855D 8C03 15E4 1B12 2418 A71C 96CD 6843 1C91 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Sun, Sep 07, 2008 at 12:04:09AM +0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > 2008/9/6, James Kozak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > hi > > reading this email again makes me wonder if this step has been omitted: > > > > Insert the PPC install disk and navigate to the /install/powerpc folder. > > Copy vmlinux (the linux kernel) to "System Folder/Linux Kernels". Copy > > initrd.gz (the init ramdisk image) to "System Folder" and rename it to > > ramdisk.image.gz > > ? > > > > James > > > > I don't think that the name, or even the location, of the initrd would > matter, as long as BootX is told where it is. As a general rule: the > shorter the name, the better. I have always been using initrd.gz as it > is. ---end quoted text--- Risto; I used your posted SxS, placed vmlinux & initrd in the top level of the MacOS system folder, and it booted. The install is where I had the issue(s), of going through the steps and hanging when it came to installing the quik bootloader. I don't understand why it's install quick as I thought that BootX would be used. I went through several iterations of disk partioning schemes without any successful install. One message I got several times was that Quik has to be on the first partition. The MacOS has a small partition at the first that doesn't delete for me, so I'm kind of stuck there. In terms of the disk partioning. Is the MacOS partition supposed to be overwritten and that's why the installer wants to install Quik ? I can't seem to find an option to toggle Quik off. -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Sun, Sep 07, 2008 at 10:42:36AM +0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > 2008/9/7, Stephen Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: [ ...] > > In terms of the disk partioning. Is the MacOS partition supposed to be > > overwritten and that's why the > > installer wants to install Quik ? I can't seem to find an option to toggle > > Quik off. > > > Probably the installer wants to install quik because it is the only > OldWorld capable boot loader it knows about. That's why you have to > manually copy the initrd for BootX, as described above. And when > booting the installed system with BootX, you have to select the new > initrd and press 'Save prefs' to make it permanent. > > Risto ---end quoted text--- Great. The added information helps muchly ! -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Sun, Sep 07, 2008 at 10:42:36AM +0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > 2008/9/7, Stephen Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > The install is where I had the issue(s), of going through the steps and > > hanging when it came to installing > > the quik bootloader. I don't understand why it's install quick as I thought > > that BootX would be used. > > > You should try to skip the quik installation. The advantage of using > BootX is that if you use quik and it fails to boot you have no backup, > with BootX you can always get into OS 9. You don't need - and cannot > have - both: the OldWorld ROM always selects the first bootable > partition. Or - in theory - you could have quik in first partition and > OS 9 in second and use quik to boot OS 9, but I don't see any point in > it. OK managed to skip the Quik installation. (I'll have to write up a SxS mentioning how to do this) > > I went through several iterations of disk partioning schemes without any > > successful install. One message I > > got several times was that Quik has to be on the first partition. The MacOS > > has a small partition at the > > first that doesn't delete for me, so I'm kind of stuck there. > > > You should keep the Mac OS partition. Get into another virtual > terminal (Ctrl-Alt-F2), mount the Mac OS partition (the path is either > /dev/hda... or /dev/bus/ide/disk.../part..., or similar): OK kept the MacOS partition(s). There are 7 of em put there by the MacOS 9 disk utility (6 small ones). I have one disk and it was labeled hdb when partioning. So that would be 'mount -t hfs (It's hfs)/dev/hdb7 (MacOS was installed on the 7th partition). There are a bunch of small Apple/MacOS partitions before this. But I assume since you mentioned system folder that it's has to go on the larger MacOS partition where the Mac system folder is; correct ? > mount -t hfs /dev/... /mnt > > (or hfsplus), and copy the new initrd into it: > > cp -p /target/boot/initrd.gz '/mnt/System Folder' There didn't appear to be an 'initrd.gz' but there was an 'initrd'. Same thing right ? On /mnt I didn't have a directory 'System Folder', however mount didn't through any complaints when mounting hdb7, so I assume that was OK. > At this point you should have the kernel package installed on target partition. Unfortunately it didn't boot. I'm getting close though. Any ideas ? Thanks. -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 12:30:42AM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote: > Stephen, > > You are so close, I can almost taste it all the way up here in New > Jersey! Yeah we're pretty close. LOL > It's too late tonite, but Monday or Tuesday, unless you succeed before > then, I'll put a spare disk in one of my Beige G3s and walk myself thru > the steps, writing down each step as I do it. If that doesn't get you up > and running, maybe we can do a phone-call step-by-step thing (I assume > you are in Texas, USA?) Nope. But GoogleChat does client 2 client phonecalls. I believe you already know my Google e-mail. ;-D > Are you using Sarge, Etch, or Lenny for this experiment? Just so I use > the same thing myself. I'm attempting with Lenny. Rick I don't, can't, expect you to do that -- Very generous of you to offer though. If I get really stuck, then maybe I'll change my tune. But like you said -- Close very close. :-D -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 09:29:21AM +0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > 2008/9/7, Stephen Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > OK kept the MacOS partition(s). There are 7 of em put there by the MacOS 9 > > disk utility (6 small ones). > > > In Apple's partitioning, the 1st partition contains the partition map, > then there are typically 5 driver partitions used by Mac OS, and then > the actual Mac OS partition. You said in the beginning that you > created the Linux partitions as well with Apple's Disk Utility? Did > you change that part during Debian installation process? Or was it > usable for Debian as such? The Debian Installer Partitioner complained that the appropriate flags weren't set (after using the MacOS disk utility to set the Linux partitions. I couldn't get any iteration of this to boot [using MacOS disk utility to format Linux partitions]) so I allowed the Debian Installer to remove the Linux partitions, (leaving everything but the MacOS partitions as "free"). I then let the installer use the remaining free space to create the necessary Linux partitions automatically. So no, it didn't appear to be usable for Debian as such. > > I have one disk and it was labeled hdb when partitioner. So that would be > > 'mount -t hfs (It's hfs)/dev/hdb7 (MacOS was installed on the 7th > > partition). > > > I'm surprised that it is not hda. Perhaps it is jumpered as slave? It > would more natural to jumper it as master. I remember that some older > G3s had problems with slave drives, at least together with a master. It's been a long time since I ever used this in production. I recall that there had been a scsi hard drive in this box, and I had removed the stock IDE hard drive shortly after purchasing. When I pulled this out of storage in my basement several weeks ago, there wasn't any hard drive in it, so I put in a spare 13GB IDE drive I had. I guess I plugged it in the wrong socket on the motherboard; there are 2 IDE data sockets on the motherboard. Make sense ? The other probably is the hda data socket. I don't think the jumpers were changed. > > There didn't appear to be an 'initrd.gz' but there was an 'initrd'. Same > > thing right ? On /mnt I didn't have a directory 'System Folder', however > > mount didn't through any complaints when mounting hdb7, so I assume that > > was OK. > > > > Unfortunately it didn't boot. I'm getting close though. Any ideas ? > > > There may be an empty directory called initrd on the root level of > target. The initrd.gz (and vmlinux) should be in boot subdirectory. > You did go through installing the kernel package? This may be a > separate step in the installer. > > If you didn't see the 'System Folder' then the mounting was not OK. > The explanation can be that Mac OS has put an HFS wrapper around the > HFS+ file system. So try with 'mount -t hfsplus ...' instead. OK Risto, will try this. Thanks again for your time. -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install with BootX - help
On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 12:58:42PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote: > I know it's considered impolite on this list to top-post, but Nicholas' > post is long and so close to perfect that it's worth leaving > un-disturbed. I have only one thing to add to it: It is, and the good doctor, ran into every 'gotcha' I have ! > Long ago when I was doing this frequently to test the (then very new) > Sarge installer, by doing an "expert" mode install (setting > "DEBCONF_PRIORITY=low" as Nicholas recommends), you could skip over the > attempt to install quik by going to a step called (at the time) > something like "proceed without a boot loader" in the main menu. This > prevented the quik installer from destroying the boot-partition > information in NVAM. So when the time came to reboot, you went directly > into OS-9. There was no need for the "update Apple hard disk drivers" > step with the OS-9 CD that Nicholas describes. > > A lot of things have changed since Sarge, and this bit of lore may no > longer be applicable. I'll try it out with Lenny myself on a spare > disk, and report back. I'm missing something; How does one invoke 'expert' mode in the installer ? -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 10:41:09AM +0100, Nicholas Helps wrote: > Hello Stephen / all, Hi Nicholas: > So, here is the way I got it to work [ ...] Excellent instructions, thanks very much Nicholas ! I'm writing this from my G3 Beige booted into Lenny-Debian using mutt. :) I'm a happy camper. I think you have just written the best SxS I've ever seen. You should write technical manuals. The thing about updating the MacOS disk driver is all it took, and I was able to boot into the install I had done from yesterday. Yay !! Thanks to *Everyone* who helped here. Amazing that there are people around that remember the incantations one has to do to get these Old World boxen to work with a current Linux. Nicolas, do you mind if I add these instructions to the Debian Wiki ? I'll be sure to give full attribution. Cheers. -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 07:45:21PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote: > Congratulation on getting it working! That's great news. Thanks Rick for all your help ! > I have a couple of things to add to Nicholas' SxS that will help > first-timers get it "right the first time". Good idea ! The only one there @ present is a little dated, as it used Sarge and wasn't complete. > If Nicholas is willing, I'd be more than happy to have his SxS and my > additions merged into a wiki page. So that we don't have to go thru all > this the next time! Great ! P.S. I thought getting XOrg running would be tricky (don't have much experience with window managers as I usually run headless with a console) but it was pretty easy to get it configured. I just had to run 'dpkg-reconfigure Xorg' make some alterations and then 'startx' to get XFce4 up. Now I can use my legacy scsi scanner on a modern OS. :-D -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Tue, Sep 09, 2008 at 09:17:55AM +0100, Nicholas Helps wrote: > Hello Stephen (and everyone else), Howdy Nicholas, > Being polite this time ;-) > > Glad the step by step worked. Please make sure you acknowledge Rick as well, > without this help, I would never have gotten my install working either > The list works! Absolutely. I believe he has some additions for the SxS as well. > Having read the other posts about the expert installer setting, I would add > that in my experience setting the installer to expert did not allow me to > avoid the installer trying to install quik. On older versions (eg Woody) even > without putting the installer in expert mode one could stop this (and the > install manual explained how). With Etch, the installer just pushed ahead > regardless of what I tried to do to stop it. Fortunately, since quik does not > work with ext3 file systems, it aborted. I consider this a bug. Perhaps I should file one then ? What's the best way to do this; reportbug ? Rick perhaps you can chime in here ... > Hope you enjoy your new system. I have found Debian to run extremely well on > these systems. Yes it is quite a bit snappier then MacOS X, and my SCSI Agfa scanner, "just works". Xsane autoconfigured it ! -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 07:34:43PM +0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > 2008/9/8, Stephen Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: [ ...] > The other IDE socket has probably the CD drive (hdc)? Maybe the spare > drive has been as a slave in its earlier life? In Linux, hda/b are > master/slave on primary ide bus, and hdc/d on secondary. > Risto Hi again Risto: Nope, none of the jumpers were changed, as it turns out. The box has 2 CD drives, both scsi. The other IDE socket isn't used at the moment. I just saw an Ad on CraigsList today, for several bigger scsi drives at a great price, so I may be putting in some extra storage. :D Risto, as you've probably read by now; I've got the G3 Beige up and running with Lenny and even a window manager, (XFce4). This was due in large part to your help, the only missing link was furnished by Nicolas, in terms of applying the Apple disk driver again as the installer corrupted it. Once I did that, I was able to boot into Linux using BootX. Thanks for all your help ! -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: G3 Beige Tower install help
On Tue, Sep 09, 2008 at 05:16:35PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote: > That's good news. I have tried to get xorg and gnome running on my test > machine, but it seems that the video chip it has isn't very well > supported. I need to open a bug report on the subject. I have 2 video cards in it. Back in the day when it was a workstation with dual heads. I left the stock video card in, (RageII 3d) with a whopping 8 mb/ram. It's this card that the Lenny installer picked up, not the dual head card. But that's OK. Is your card different from stock ? -- Regards, S.D.Allen - Toronto -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
