Feasibility of private/unofficial KDE 3.5 packages

[Alejandro Exojo]

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Hello.

First of all, I want to state crystal clear the following:

* I don't want anybody to change his or her mind about the 3.5 vs 4.x 
situation. Politely talking about it might be interesting or useful, though, 
but probably many members of the list might not want the discussion here.
* Of course I don't want anybody to do any kind of work if he or she is not 
interested or motivated to do it.
* I'm not stepping up to do any kind of work either, but I will gladly share 
my experiences if I have some success.
* I don't think that 3.5 is a long term solution, even if you just want to 
provide basic support (or none at all) and no new features.
* However, I do think that it might be convenient to have around some 3.5 
applications side by side with the 4.x ones for a while, the same way that one 
might have non-KDE applications.

That said, I would like to ask some questions about how feasible would be to 
tweak at least some of the KDE 3.5 packaging to not clash with official 4.4 
packages. Ana mentioned this possibility, and I think I can give it a chance.

First, if I understood correctly, Qt3 and kdelibs 3.5 will still be around for 
some time. Am I right? I still see them on unstable, and I suppose they will 
be on the archive unless all remaining KDE 3 packages are removed.

Second, I know that compiling KDE 3.5 setting /opt as a prefix is not an 
option for official packages, but is it a good idea for private packages? I'm 
used to compile development versions in a different prefix, and is quite easy 
and safe, but I have to do manual setup each time I want to run them.

And what about adding a suffix to the 3.5 applications? I suppose this will be 
more work, but also feels like the proper way to do it.

Finally, how realistic do you think is all of this? I don't have the skills 
(nor the time to acquire them) to even think about "infrastructure" stuff 
(desktop, kdm, libraries), but I have some rusty knowledge of packaging KDE 
applications, and luckily for me, it's just 2 or 3 of the old ones that I 
need.

Thanks in advance for the replies, and special thanks, as always, for the huge 
work that the developers do on the KDE packages. I know it's a very difficult 
task, and one that requires lots of time. Thank you very much, truly.

Regards.

PS: I can move the conversation to pkg-kde-talk if you want. I'm subscribed 
there too.
-- 
Alex (a.k.a. suy) | GPG ID 0x0B8B0BC2
http://barnacity.net/ | http://disperso.net


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Re: Status of Plasma 5.18/5.19?

[Luc Castermans]

Dear

I have no objections to this proposal.
At the same time I like to express my wish to find an opening to get out of
the current situation.

Regards,
Luc

Op di 7 jul. 2020 om 09:06 schreef Rainer Dorsch :

> Am Sonntag, 5. Juli 2020, 15:48:55 CEST schrieb Norbert Preining:
> > Hi Dietz,
> >
> > > Would you mind announcing relevant changes from your side (changed
> repos,
> > > discontinued development and so on) also oh debian-kde?
> >
> > I don't think this is welcome here, since also on the IRC channel I was
> > told not to advertise my repositories.
> >
>
> Since this is already speculation, can anybody who has concerns with
> announcements or user reports of Norbert's super uptodate KDE packages for
> Debian here on the list share them? I hope with an open minded and
> solution
> oriented discussion they can be addressed and resolved
>
> Thanks
> Rainer
>
> --
> Rainer Dorsch
> http://bokomoko.de/
>
>
>

-- 
Luc Castermans
mailto:luc.casterm...@gmail.com

Re: Status of Plasma 5.18/5.19?

[Rainer Dorsch]

Am Sonntag, 5. Juli 2020, 15:48:55 CEST schrieb Norbert Preining:
> Hi Dietz,
> 
> > Would you mind announcing relevant changes from your side (changed repos,
> > discontinued development and so on) also oh debian-kde?
> 
> I don't think this is welcome here, since also on the IRC channel I was
> told not to advertise my repositories.
> 

Since this is already speculation, can anybody who has concerns with 
announcements or user reports of Norbert's super uptodate KDE packages for 
Debian here on the list share them? I hope with an open minded and solution 
oriented discussion they can be addressed and resolved

Thanks
Rainer

-- 
Rainer Dorsch
http://bokomoko.de/

Boring annoucment: Plasma 5.19.3

[Norbert Preining]

Small steps make updates easy, Plasma 5.19.3 is now in my repos.
(sid and testing, amd64 and i386)

Enjoy.

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert  https://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

Re: Status of Plasma 5.18/5.19?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Hi.

Luc Castermans - 07.07.20, 09:42:34 CEST:
> I have no objections to this proposal.
> At the same time I like to express my wish to find an opening to get
> out of the current situation.

Just speaking for myself personally: I second this.

Best,
-- 
Martin

Re: Status of Plasma 5.18/5.19?

[Pino Toscano]

In data martedì 7 luglio 2020 09:06:20 CEST, Rainer Dorsch ha scritto:
> Am Sonntag, 5. Juli 2020, 15:48:55 CEST schrieb Norbert Preining:
> > Hi Dietz,
> > 
> > > Would you mind announcing relevant changes from your side (changed repos,
> > > discontinued development and so on) also oh debian-kde?
> > 
> > I don't think this is welcome here, since also on the IRC channel I was
> > told not to advertise my repositories.
> > 
> 
> Since this is already speculation, can anybody who has concerns with 
> announcements or user reports of Norbert's super uptodate KDE packages for 
> Debian here on the list share them?

I do.

> I hope with an open minded and solution 
> oriented discussion they can be addressed and resolved

"open minded" is not exactly the way somebody has been solving the
problem of helping a team in Debian.

It is definitely not nice to see that all the work & efforts in many
years are happily thrown down the loo by
- publicity stunts
- binary-only repos because "one person [not anymore working in the
  team] said something bad to me, so it's all team fault"
- blogs filled with untrue facts and on the borderline of insults

How does an "open mind" motivate you to work on this? I'll tell you:
it does not.

Maybe a better solution would be to just give up with this -- after
all, users have the super-duper-and-excellent-quality repos, right?

Deepily unmotivated,
-- 
Pino Toscano

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Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: Status of Plasma 5.18/5.19?

[Scarlett Moore]

On Tuesday, July 7, 2020 7:57:23 AM MST Pino Toscano wrote:
> In data martedì 7 luglio 2020 09:06:20 CEST, Rainer Dorsch ha scritto:
> > Am Sonntag, 5. Juli 2020, 15:48:55 CEST schrieb Norbert Preining:
> > > Hi Dietz,
> > > 
> > > > Would you mind announcing relevant changes from your side (changed
> > > > repos,
> > > > discontinued development and so on) also oh debian-kde?
> > > 
> > > I don't think this is welcome here, since also on the IRC channel I was
> > > told not to advertise my repositories.
> > 
> > Since this is already speculation, can anybody who has concerns with
> > announcements or user reports of Norbert's super uptodate KDE packages for
> > Debian here on the list share them?
> 
> I do.
> 
> > I hope with an open minded and solution
> > oriented discussion they can be addressed and resolved
> 
> "open minded" is not exactly the way somebody has been solving the
> problem of helping a team in Debian.
> 
> It is definitely not nice to see that all the work & efforts in many
> years are happily thrown down the loo by
> - publicity stunts
> - binary-only repos because "one person [not anymore working in the
>   team] said something bad to me, so it's all team fault"
> - blogs filled with untrue facts and on the borderline of insults
> 
> How does an "open mind" motivate you to work on this? I'll tell you:
> it does not.
> 
> Maybe a better solution would be to just give up with this -- after
> all, users have the super-duper-and-excellent-quality repos, right?
> 
> Deepily unmotivated,

Hi all.
I was not on this list, sorry. I have been working on plasma packages and they 
are quite out of date. I am new to Debian process of mass package updates, so 
I am slower than I care to admit, plus limitations due to not being a DD. That 
being said, I do apologize for delay. I do accept quality merge requests.  I 
know I missed them when I started on this task and I apologized, but Norbert 
you have since deleted all of them and refuse to undelete them. I suppose 
making me look bad helps you? I am trying my best with the time I have and 
amount of work needed. Again, help is gladly accepted as long as it is quality 
work and not just a changelog entry..
Thanks,
Scarlett


-- 
Scarlett Moore
gpg: 7C35 920F 1CE2 899E 8EA9  AAD0 2E7C 0367 B9BF A089
Software Engineer @ Blue Systems
Debian Maintainer developer in training.
Netrunner PM
KDE Developer

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Re: Status of Plasma 5.18/5.19?

[Marco Möller]

On 07.07.20 17:20, Scarlett Moore wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2020 7:57:23 AM MST Pino Toscano wrote:

In data martedì 7 luglio 2020 09:06:20 CEST, Rainer Dorsch ha scritto:

Am Sonntag, 5. Juli 2020, 15:48:55 CEST schrieb Norbert Preining:

Hi Dietz,


Would you mind announcing relevant changes from your side (changed
repos,
discontinued development and so on) also oh debian-kde?


I don't think this is welcome here, since also on the IRC channel I was
told not to advertise my repositories.


Since this is already speculation, can anybody who has concerns with
announcements or user reports of Norbert's super uptodate KDE packages for
Debian here on the list share them?


I do.


I hope with an open minded and solution
oriented discussion they can be addressed and resolved


"open minded" is not exactly the way somebody has been solving the
problem of helping a team in Debian.

It is definitely not nice to see that all the work & efforts in many
years are happily thrown down the loo by
- publicity stunts
- binary-only repos because "one person [not anymore working in the
   team] said something bad to me, so it's all team fault"
- blogs filled with untrue facts and on the borderline of insults

How does an "open mind" motivate you to work on this? I'll tell you:
it does not.

Maybe a better solution would be to just give up with this -- after
all, users have the super-duper-and-excellent-quality repos, right?

Deepily unmotivated,


Hi all.
I was not on this list, sorry. I have been working on plasma packages and they
are quite out of date. I am new to Debian process of mass package updates, so
I am slower than I care to admit, plus limitations due to not being a DD. That
being said, I do apologize for delay. I do accept quality merge requests.  I
know I missed them when I started on this task and I apologized, but Norbert
you have since deleted all of them and refuse to undelete them. I suppose
making me look bad helps you? I am trying my best with the time I have and
amount of work needed. Again, help is gladly accepted as long as it is quality
work and not just a changelog entry..
Thanks,
Scarlett

Looking also at the signature of your mail, I assume that you might have 
some insights also on the general situation. I am wondering about Qt 
itself moving to version 6 and having announced to change the license 
conditions by which KDE have used Qt in the past but appears to not be 
able to continue to use it in the future. Looking forward to reading 
good news, would you know about how KDE.org is planning to deal with 
this, is there a plan already?

Marco

Re: Status of Plasma 5.18/5.19?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Pino.

Pino Toscano - 07.07.20, 16:57:23 CEST:
> In data martedì 7 luglio 2020 09:06:20 CEST, Rainer Dorsch ha scritto:
> > Am Sonntag, 5. Juli 2020, 15:48:55 CEST schrieb Norbert Preining:
> > > Hi Dietz,
> > > 
> > > > Would you mind announcing relevant changes from your side
> > > > (changed repos, discontinued development and so on) also oh
> > > > debian-kde?
> > > 
> > > I don't think this is welcome here, since also on the IRC channel
> > > I was told not to advertise my repositories.
> > 
> > Since this is already speculation, can anybody who has concerns with
> > announcements or user reports of Norbert's super uptodate KDE
> > packages for Debian here on the list share them?
> 
> I do.

Thank you for sharing your objection.

> > I hope with an open minded and solution
> > oriented discussion they can be addressed and resolved
> 
> "open minded" is not exactly the way somebody has been solving the
> problem of helping a team in Debian.

I do not like the wording of this sentence. How you speak about Norbert 
as "somebody".

> It is definitely not nice to see that all the work & efforts in many
> years are happily thrown down the loo by
> - publicity stunts
> - binary-only repos because "one person [not anymore working in the
>   team] said something bad to me, so it's all team fault"
> - blogs filled with untrue facts and on the borderline of insults

I don't know what to do with this.

I have heard two contradicting point of views and do not bring them 
together. And some blaming of each other. Unfortunately I have never 
seen that blaming someone else solved any issue.

And I see that someone offered to help but it did not work out. Due to 
what exactly is still unclear to me but it seems that there have been 
disagreements in how to work on the packages.

> Deepily unmotivated,

I am sad to read this.

I appreciate all the quality work you have done on KDE applications / 
release service and other packages.

Thank you.

At the same time I appreciate that Norbert works on providing more up to 
date packages for Plasma and KDE Frameworks (I think applications are 
mostly the same versions currently).

I see everyone wanting to help in their way, just it seems somehow it 
does not go together.

Best,
-- 
Martin

Re: Status of Plasma 5.18/5.19?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Scarlett, dear Norbert, dear community,

Scarlett Moore - 07.07.20, 17:20:48 CEST:
> I was not on this list, sorry. I have been working on plasma packages
> and they are quite out of date. I am new to Debian process of mass
> package updates, so I am slower than I care to admit, plus
> limitations due to not being a DD. That being said, I do apologize
> for delay. I do accept quality merge requests.  I know I missed them

There is no need to apologize. You are doing this in your free time and 
have no obligation.

I thank you for your work.

> when I started on this task and I apologized, but Norbert you have
> since deleted all of them and refuse to undelete them. I suppose
> making me look bad helps you? I am trying my best with the time I
> have and amount of work needed. Again, help is gladly accepted as
> long as it is quality work and not just a changelog entry..

Norbert, you retracted your merge requests… however, Scarlett is willing 
to consider quality merge requests… so I see an opportunity to work 
together, if you are willing to.

Norbert, maybe if you work together with those of the Qt/KDE team who 
are willing to work with you, that is a start?

Best,
-- 
Martin

Status of Qt 6 (was: Re: Status of Plasma 5.18/5.19?)

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Marco,

Marco Möller - 07.07.20, 19:28:52 CEST:
> Looking also at the signature of your mail, I assume that you might
> have some insights also on the general situation. I am wondering
> about Qt itself moving to version 6 and having announced to change
> the license conditions by which KDE have used Qt in the past but
> appears to not be able to continue to use it in the future. Looking
> forward to reading good news, would you know about how KDE.org is
> planning to deal with this, is there a plan already?

I suggest bringing this up in a different thread and not hijack this one 
for upstream related things.

Best,
-- 
Martin

Re: Status of Plasma 5.18/5.19?

[Luc Castermans]

In response to remarks in this thread, I like to add two remarks:

"Open":  is for me the openness of mind: listening to others opinions, 
remarks, etc. And carefully digestion these, balancing them, before 
responding to them.


Secondly: I consider myself Debian-ist. Packages created outside the 
DFSG and not available from Debian servers are basically not okay for me.


Therfore I see Norberts packages as a temporary way to get access to 
latest and greatest KDE packages, but at the same time I see them as an 
option to speed up creating compliant Debian packages. I´d expect code, 
methods, automation can be re-used from Norbert´s work to accomplish 
this. Disclaimer: I can be wrong on the latter.


Regards,

Luc






Op 07-07-2020 om 16:19 schreef Martin Steigerwald:

Hi.

Luc Castermans - 07.07.20, 09:42:34 CEST:

I have no objections to this proposal.
At the same time I like to express my wish to find an opening to get
out of the current situation.

Just speaking for myself personally: I second this.

Best,


--

m.vr.gr.

Luc Castermans
mailto:luc.casterm...@gmail.com

Re: Does Plasma/KDE work under Wayland?

[Borden Rhodes]

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 03:48, Xavier Brochard  wrote:
>
> Good bug reports for something like this include backtrace infos.
> You need to install kmail-dbg (or -dbgsym) package.
> When Kmail will hang again, use gdb and bt to produce a backtrace (I
> can't remember exactly, sorry).

Is there no equivalent to .xsession-errors in Wayland? Are KDE
programs not logging? Whilst I'll fiddle with a debugger, I can't
imagine most users being willing or able to set that environment up or
have a clue what to do with the output.

Re: Status of Plasma 5.18/5.19?

[Norbert Preining]

Hi all,

Just a few comments to clarify my position.
- I *always* provided sources for my changes, never binary only
- It was not the comment on IRC that triggered my stepping back, but
  Sandro's "evaluation" of my merge requests as "sub-par", "expecting
  more from a DD of 20 years", etc ...
  See 
https://alioth-lists.debian.net/pipermail/pkg-kde-talk/2020-May/003050.html

The "requirements" of the Debian Qt/KDE Team concerning merge requests
and git commits and changelog entries are formal complications I tried
to follow as much as possible, but I honestly will not do more than what
I have done just for "formal reasons". If "quality merge requests" are
about these IMNSHO partly ridiculous rules, then sorry for me not being
able to produce them.

But there is an easy way out: Anyone interested in helping out/contributing
can easily:
- get the sources (or the previous merge requests, they are still
  visible!) of my packages
- create the git commits and changelog entries according to "the rules"
- make "quality" merge requests

Best

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert  https://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

Re: Status of Plasma 5.18/5.19?

[Norbert Preining]

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020, Scarlett Moore wrote:
> amount of work needed. Again, help is gladly accepted as long as it is 
> quality 
> work and not just a changelog entry..

You don't understand that "just a changelog entry" implies:
- checking that no dependencies has changed
- test building and installing and running the package
If nothing else is needed, why is "just a changelog entry" bad?

Functionality first please, not formalities.

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert  https://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

Re: Status of Plasma 5.18/5.19?

[Rainer Dorsch]

Hi Pino,

thanks for sharing your concerns. But can you elaborate somewhat more on a few 
things?

Am Dienstag, 7. Juli 2020, 16:57:23 CEST schrieb Pino Toscano:
[...]
> It is definitely not nice to see that all the work & efforts in many
> years are happily thrown down the loo by

Why do you think that something is thrown away by Norbert (or anybody else) 
providing recent Debian packages for KDE?

> - publicity stunts

What are you referring to? For me Norbert's blog entries read reasonably 
neutral (?) or are you referring to other blogs?

> - binary-only repos because "one person [not anymore working in the
>   team] said something bad to me, so it's all team fault"

Are you referring to Norbert's repos?

Picking a random one

https://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/npreining:/debian-kde:/
plasma519/Debian_Testing/

I find source packages in there. Not sure if apt-get can handle the directory 
structure though.

> - blogs filled with untrue facts and on the borderline of insults

Can you list the major facts which you consider untrue?

> How does an "open mind" motivate you to work on this? I'll tell you:
> it does not.
> 
> Maybe a better solution would be to just give up with this -- after
> all, users have the super-duper-and-excellent-quality repos, right?

It seems you are insulted by Norbert (or anybody else) providing uptodate KDE 
releases and some users who have a need for new releases using them. 

For me it seems there are packages from the Debian KDE team which are high 
quality, but often somewhat outdated. Then there are Norbert's packages which 
are uptodate but likely(?) lower quality. It would be surprising if one person 
would be able to just provide better packages in all aspects. Unfortunately, 
at least so far, nobody had a solution which resulted in packages which were 
both high quality packages and contained very recent KDE releases. If that 
solution is found Norbert's packages are obsolete until then for me they seem 
to fill a gap.

> Deepily unmotivated,

Can you elaborate why you are demotivated by Norbert providing  packages he 
compiled of latest KDE releases? How does it affect your packaging work?

Thanks
Rainer

-- 
Rainer Dorsch
http://bokomoko.de/