Re: Languages for Description
From: Milan Zamazal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Languages for Description Date: 05 May 1998 13:53:09 +0200 > YD: While we're talking about language issues and people not > YD: speaking english: if we want Debian to be one day a valid choice > YD: for a lambda user in a random country, we *will* have to work > YD: out some mechanism that allows translated Descriptions: fields. > > I've heard RedHat uses .po file for this purpose. Perhaps dpkg, APT, > and dselect could use gettext for package descriptions too? Would be possible. Debian JP has translated descriptions for bo packages and making use of them for Japanese version of web pages. There's also an experimental implementation for localized descriptions called chdesc (see http://www.bekkoame.or.jp/~kamop/). BTW, are there any translations for other languages or anyone is implementing mechanism for localized descriptions for dselect? Keita Maehara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Debian JP Project (http://www.debian.or.jp/) PGP Key fingerprint = 82 37 2F 1E 06 ED C4 37 1E E2 C2 96 22 B8 B3 F1 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Package Descrption I18N Proposal
AFAIK, there has been discussion on i18n issue of the package description repeatedly in the past, but never been implemented. And it seems that there's no active work around this now (correct me if wrong). So I propose one feasible plan for this. First, we have to include translated description in each package, then generate Packages-$LANG, because we cannot always get Packages-$LANG (we cannot get translated description in doing "dpkg --info" for a new package without updating the package database, for example). You might feel difficulty in doing this, but making use of BTS with wishlist entitled "Include this translation in the package" or something will help us. Not all the package description have to be translated (it is somewhat a hard work), and currently even providing a framework for translated description is valuable. Then where should the translated description reside? I've only installed a few files named debian/description.$LANG into debian/tmp/DEBIAN directory when the package was built, and it works fine. It may be better dh_installdeb to support these files, but it doesn't matter now. I've created the simplest example and it can be available from: http://master.debian.org/~maehara/description-i18n/ The description files won't installed when the package is installed, but actually included in the package in a reasonable manner without any modification to the current packaging system. You can check it with "dpkg --info" or "dpkg-deb -e". Thus we can include translated description files in Debian packages themselves. It is true that we have to make dpkg, dselect and apt to support these files (installing each translation to a proper location, displaying proper language by $LANG and so on), but once the packages with translated description have widely spread, it will not be a big problem. It is important that we can actually start translation *just now* (we may have to revise debian-policy to support translated description files, though). In the Debian JP Project, all the description for Debian 1.3 packages are already available and they are used as a part of "Debian Packages" web page. We are going to catch up with the latest description. I have no intention to stick to this proposal but to the description i18n mechanism. Any comments are welcome. Keita Maehara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: Package Descrption I18N Proposal
From: Fabien Ninoles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Package Descrption I18N Proposal Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:44:40 -0800 > You can arg the same in the other way: an L-speaking user don't need > all the text translations for programs that they'll never installed. > I don't think we can find a general solutions for everything. I prefer > to see all localisations for a package in the same package until it > get too big. After that, the maintainer can decided to subdivide the > package, just like the package-doc.deb scheme. My intention was to discuss description issue only and I prefer the "all localizations for a package in the same package" scheme, but I totally agree to your idea regarding other localized stuff. This may be same as manpages- (I'm not sure how they will be coped with, though). > For localizations, a simple alternative to the package files will be > enough, IMHO. We can maintain a md5sums of the descriptions for a known > valid version (more work for the I18N maintainers who have to check the > work everytime the description even for typographical reason), or the > maintainer can warn when the package description change (more subject to > errors). www.debian.org webpages are already being translated in such a way. Keita Maehara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: Package Descrption I18N Proposal
From: Edmund GRIMLEY EVANS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Package Descrption I18N Proposal Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:29:41 + > > > So, I'm trying to argue that, ideally, language-specific stuff (and > > > that ought to include English-specific stuff) shouldn't go into a > > > package called prog_1.2.3.deb, say, at all. An -speaking user should > > > install prog_1.2.3.deb and _X.Y.Z.deb to get an -speaking prog. > > > > You can arg the same in the other way: an L-speaking user don't need > > all the text translations for programs that they'll never installed. > > Unless you make "localisation packages" work differently: when you > install them, only the stuff relevant to the (ordinary) packages that > are already installed is extracted. (I had imagined them working like > this, somehow - mechanism to be defined later!) Can't this also be applied to my proposal, can it? We can extract prefered localized description from the i18n packages, then install them. I'm not kidding on you, but as mentioned before, I'm focusing only on the package description and the basic information such as package description should go into the package themselves, IMHO. I agree with you regarding other localized stuff. > > I don't think we can find a general solutions for everything. I prefer > > to see all localisations for a package in the same package until it > > get too big. After that, the maintainer can decided to subdivide the > > package, just like the package-doc.deb scheme. > > That sounds like a pragmatic, short-term solution, but I want to have a > better idea of what the best way of doing things is, long-term, so that > I can give myself a sense of direction. So I hope that people will > criticise my ideas in principle rather than just reject them as not > practicable in the short term ... If we can get short-term (and not so bad) solution, it makes Debian more attractive *now* and more people may choose Debian or join in the project and help us. Is it valuable in the long term, isn't it? > I think that a system of "localisation packages" might encourage people > to produce localisations and encourage package developers to > internationalise the packages. People are discouraged from produceing > localisations by the overheads involved (understanding how to do it in > a package-by-package way) and the delay (if you get a localisation into > an upstream source it takes a long time for it to be available to > ordinary users who buy a distribution - a localisation package could > reach users much quicker). Most problems are resolved if we have "translation coordinaotors" like the translation project of the www.debian.org webpages. And I think the delay issue depends on the "localization packages" maintainer. If he is so lazy, we cannot get the latest stuff at all. OTOH, we can get the latest stuff (even if they may be partial) from each i18n package maintainers, if all of them aren't lazy. Keita Maehara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: Package Descrption I18N Proposal
From: Milan Zamazal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Package Descrption I18N Proposal Date: 13 Dec 1998 21:15:39 +0100 > Or is it no problem, since descriptions do not change much? Maybe, but > *logically*, each package should have exactly corresponding description > translations. :-) This is applied to every case, as far as we translate the description. > If descriptions were parts of upstream packages, there would be no > problem with your proposal. However I don't think this happens soon (if > ever), so I have to look at descriptions as a Debian specific add-on. I agree to this. > I can see the following problems with description translations in > packages: > > - The "synchronization" problem mentioned above. This will never be avoided as far as we translate the description. > - Extra work for package maintainer. Currently, if we simply get > Packages and translate it, we need no maintainer assistance. We can > also update translations ourselves. If we use destrans-X.Y.Z.deb package or similar method, all of the translation will go to the destrans-X.Y.Z.deb maintainer and he have to do a (perhaps more) hard work. > The "dpkg -I" problem with all descriptions together in one place is not > fatal. You can either have older translation available or you can get > the latest destrans-X.Y.Z.deb package. If you don't feel this fatal or even weird, I have nothing to say any longer. It is not a technical issue but a feeling issue and will never be concluded. > I'm not sure which approach is better. Could you please elaborate on > the two problems mentioned above? I've given up my proposal because it is impossible to persuade all the package developers (and what is worse, most of the developers seem not to have much interest with this issue and it is not technical as mentioned above). I understood that we cannot do a thing beyond the current framework (but develop packages). Even in making a little change, we have to discuss much (optimization for Pentium, source dependency, non-interactive installation or even adding a new section, for example) and only a few of them are achieved (and what are left will be discussed repeatedly all the year around), so I regret my posting "never feasible proposal". And I have no idea to realize "translated description" system in a practical way. I've decided to do the best in developing my package, not in changing current framework. Thanks, Keita Maehara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: additions to http://www.linux.org/dist/nonenglish.html
From: Adam Di Carlo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: additions to http://www.linux.org/dist/nonenglish.html Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 03:57:16 -0500 > On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:58:00 +0800, Anthony Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > Can you be more specific on the 'merging of efforts'? For example > > how we are going to do this? > > > I'm particularly interested because I'm planning to contribute more > > to Debian on the Chinese front (as I'm a Chinese), but I'm wondering > > how to do that. Should I follow what Debian-JP did or aim at > > improving the current Debian structure so that Asian languages > > 'sub-distribution' can co-exist with the 'main distribution' (not > > the 'main' section) gracefully? > > > If we take a look into Debian-JP we can find that there're lots of > > localized programs, from general utils like 'less' to Debian > > specific stuffs like boot-floppies. Simply putting them together is > > quite ugly? Maybe we should make a language-specific branch? (I > > think we can learn something from FreeBSD in this respect). Are > > there any ongoing plans on doing these? > (snip) > > The Japanese developers are engaged also in submitting their specialized > packages into the main distribution. Yes, the goal of the Debian JP Project is not to develop "Japanese Debian add-ons", but to make i18n efforts of Debian itself from Japanese (as well as other languages) point of view. It is true that we have a lot of packages (some of them are not Japanese-specific so they are useful for non-Japanese users) not yet contributed to Debian. IMHO, it is mostly because many Japanese developers feel difficulty or tiresomeness in becoming a official Debian developer (yes, it is not difficult nor tiresome, IMO), but the official packages from the Debian JP Project is increasing one by one. I know that there is an effort to make i18n'ed boot-floppies. But to support Japanese, what we have to do is not just translating the dialog messages, but putting kon2/konfont (which enables displaying Japanese on console) into the base system, implementing multibyte support of dialogs and so on. And currently there is no official policy or mechanism for translated manpages, program messages, window manager menus etc. Generally, current i18n is mostly "for English and Europian users". We should promote "true i18n" by solving many problems in creating "real i18n'ed operating system". -- Keita Maehara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: Package i18n
From: Michael Sobolev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Package i18n Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:24:32 +0400 > I remember somebody was talking about certain things concerning package > localization. What is the current situation with this? Here are the > issues I see (unfortunately, without proposals of any kind): > > localization of package description > localization of the program messages > > The former means some changes to be done on the format of the control file for > debian package. The latter means creating a policy about program > localization. The problem left is where should the package description/program messages reside. If we put these description/messages for all languages into each package, users have to install the description/messages for langauages they don't want (and package maintainance beomes more difficult). If we put these description/messages of all programs into a single package for each language, users have to install the description/messages for packages they don't want (and we cannot display translated description by "dpkg -- info"). > Does anybody have any reference on the ongoing works? AFAIK, nobody is working on this. I remember a few people said that the translation effort for the package description is going on in some countries (and we are working for Japanese now). How about putting these on cvs.debian.org and use them to generate translated "Packages" pages (http://www.debian.org/Packages/) first? This may help keeping motivation of the description translators. I don't know who has a script to generate these pages and who is managing cvs.debian.org. Who should I contact? -- Keita Maehara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
