Re: Asking for a new pseudo package in the BTS: l10n-french
On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 03:31:08AM +0100, Michael Bramer wrote: [...] > > There are several problems: > > * all msgids have a trailing space > > * msgids are not unique > > * encoding is not specified > > Oh, I know this all. This are the first files..., I will add/change this > points. This was no announcement of the availability of po files. I thought you were asking for feedback, sorry for the trouble. [...] > > translating messages by running msgunfmt on .mo files. You are losing > > comments written by previous translators. > > and? > > Maybe the DDTS is not compatible with this po like comments. But is this > a problem? IMHO no. You also lose fuzzy strings, __Choices is not supported, etc. > My dream: > The package maintainer make only 'his' english templates file and > upload the package to the archive. > The DDTP will catch all this new stuff, translate it all in 1-2 weeks > automagical into all languages. > If the package maintainer make a new build, some build scripts > download the translations from the DDTP and include this to this > package (the old system) or the DDTP make a XXX-i10n-XX package itself > and upload this with all the translation. > > You get the point? We don't need comments in the po files! The po file > is only a container for the transport from the DDTP to the binary > package. Nobody will look into it. Nobody will read this comments... Your point is that everything works wonderful if the DDTP is the only source of l10n. Sorry but this is not acceptable, translators can decide to manage their translations in a different way. What you describe is mostly a clone of the Free Translation Project, but information is centralized by the DDTS whereas it is distributed in PO files by the FTP. This is IMO a huge difference, I much prefer the latter. Denis
DDTP and po[-debconf] files (was: Asking for a new pseudo package in the BTS: l10n-french)
[Let's change the mail title, since the thread completelly changed its topic] On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 03:31:08AM +0100, Michael Bramer wrote: > On Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 09:09:58PM +0100, Denis Barbier wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 05:15:07PM +0100, Michael Bramer wrote: > > [...] > > But the main problem is that you are extracting templates from binary > > packages, and not source packages. This is exactly as if you were > > Maybe I should change the source from binary packages to source > packages. The nice point with the binary packages is: You can find the > templates all on the some place in all packages. > > If I use the source, the server must search the templates and guess it. > And maybe the template file will be change with some patch files etc. > in some packages build scripts. Well. w.d.o/intl/l10n scripts manage to get the templates from the bin package. If you don't want to search them yourself, you can either get them from their or borrow code from these scripts. > > translating messages by running msgunfmt on .mo files. You are losing > > comments written by previous translators. > > and? > > Maybe the DDTS is not compatible with this po like comments. But is this > a problem? IMHO no. I really think that those comments MUST be in the source file presented to the translators. I agree that those comments are not needed by the scripts used to put the translation in the package or to the developpers, but translators DO need them. Your point is like asking the qa members to fix bugs in C source code with all comments and documentation stripped out. It is still possible, but add an unneeded dificulty. > My dream: > The package maintainer make only 'his' english templates file and > upload the package to the archive. > The DDTP will catch all this new stuff, translate it all in 1-2 weeks > automagical into all languages. > If the package maintainer make a new build, some build scripts > download the translations from the DDTP and include this to this > package (the old system) or the DDTP make a XXX-i10n-XX package itself > and upload this with all the translation. Yup, we more or less share the same dream. The only point is that there is no automagie here. Some human being will do the translation work. They need love from us to do their job. > You get the point? We don't need comments in the po files! The po file > is only a container for the transport from the DDTP to the binary > package. Nobody will look into it. Nobody will read this comments... We, as implementor of a i18n framework don't need them. We, as translators, do need them. > Documentation is is like sex; bad documentation is much better than > no documentation. Yup, I'm happy that your signature agrees with my point of view ;) Bye, Mt. -- Il ne faut pas confondre « La société m'opprime » et « le système m'étrique ». --- éphéméride du 19 juin
Re: Asking for a new pseudo package in the BTS: l10n-french
On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 10:01:58AM +0100, Denis Barbier wrote: > On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 03:31:08AM +0100, Michael Bramer wrote: > [...] > > > There are several problems: > > > * all msgids have a trailing space > > > * msgids are not unique > > > * encoding is not specified > > > > Oh, I know this all. This are the first files..., I will add/change this > > points. This was no announcement of the availability of po files. > > I thought you were asking for feedback, sorry for the trouble. no trouble... > > > translating messages by running msgunfmt on .mo files. You are losing > > > comments written by previous translators. > > > > and? > > > > Maybe the DDTS is not compatible with this po like comments. But is this > > a problem? IMHO no. > > You also lose fuzzy strings, __Choices is not supported, etc. We don't need fuzzy in DDTP. If the text changed, the DDTP make a bug report and the last translator get this, with the old, the new English text and the old translation. The old translation is removed from the translated file, and after the upload of the new translation, the ddts insert the new translation in the translated file. to the Choices: this is still true. 1.) Only <5% of all tempelates have translateable Choices 2.) The DDTP will support this in future. (But other things are on the top of my TODO list.) > > My dream: > > The package maintainer make only 'his' english templates file and > > upload the package to the archive. > > The DDTP will catch all this new stuff, translate it all in 1-2 weeks > > automagical into all languages. > > If the package maintainer make a new build, some build scripts > > download the translations from the DDTP and include this to this > > package (the old system) or the DDTP make a XXX-i10n-XX package itself > > and upload this with all the translation. > > > > You get the point? We don't need comments in the po files! The po file > > is only a container for the transport from the DDTP to the binary > > package. Nobody will look into it. Nobody will read this comments... > > Your point is that everything works wonderful if the DDTP is the only > source of l10n. Sorry but this is not acceptable, translators can > decide to manage their translations in a different way. yes, you right. The translators can get the normal po files and use this. No translator must use the DDTP framework. The DDTP is only a offer for translators and reviewer. If a package A has some translators, and this translators make the translations, send this to the package maintainer of A and he use this translation, all is ok. Nobody will of this will use the DDTP. This is ok. But the real live is differently. See the graphic from http://ddtp.debian.org/debconf/gnuplot/ddts-stat.png: At the beginning from 2000 debconf descriptions, we have only 700 translated into German. Some of this translations are outdated. All this is not very nice. Now we have 2300 translations of 3000 debconf translations. And this all in 5 Months. And the DDTP avoid outdated translation and the review process give some quality. short: If the maintainer and the translator work without the DDTP all is ok. But if the maintainer and the translator (and the reviewer) use the framework of the DDTP, the don't need any comments, fuzzy flags etc. in the debconfs files from the DDTP. > What you describe is mostly a clone of the Free Translation Project, > but information is centralized by the DDTS whereas it is distributed > in PO files by the FTP. This is IMO a huge difference, I much prefer > the latter. 1.) IMHO I know the TP (I never work with it) 2.) The TP is only for normal po files. I don't find any other po files there (like the debconf templates po files, po from man pages, ...) 3.) gettext avoid outdated translations, but IMHO TP don't inform the translator about changes etc. 4.) I don't like to translate text from normal programs (like tar), programs with own translation system (like KDE) or something like this. The DDTP will only support - first debian only texts (like Package Description, Debconf templates, ...) - maybe sometimes other 'extern' texts, if nobody other make a translation. Nobody must use the DDTP. If you prefer other ways, make your work like you prefer ways. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debsupport.de PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux "Das Schlimme am Pessimismus ist eigentlich, meistens Recht zu bekommen." -- Michael Olbricht in dasr pgp0Zl9mBxJog.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Asking for a new pseudo package in the BTS: l10n-french
Hi, [...] > 3.) gettext avoid outdated translations, but IMHO TP don't inform the > translator about changes etc. On that very point it's not true, for example, as a PO contributor I recieve that kind of email : This email comes with a Subject which is very nice : Subject: texinfo-4.3c (99%, 4 untranslated) - Hello, members of the French team at [EMAIL PROTECTED]'. This is a message from the Translation Project robot. I'm happy to announce that a new file, available as: >http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/teams/PO/fr/texinfo-4.3c.fr.po has been integrated in the central PO archives, and is now kept with all other accepted French translations. The file should soon be made available in mirror sites as: >ftp://ftp.unex.es/pub/gnu-i18n/po/teams/PO/fr/texinfo-4.3c.fr.po >http://translation.sf.net/teams/PO/fr/texinfo-4.3c.fr.po >ftp://tiger.informatik.hu-berlin.de/pub/po/teams/PO/fr/texinfo-4.3c.fr.po In this file, 543 messages have been translated already, accounting for 99% of the original text size (in raw bytes). Still, 4 messages need to be attended to. Laurent Bourbeau is currently assigned for the translation. Please translate the remaining messages for the benefit of users of the French language. Once the translation completed, send the result to the address given below, using the Subject line: >TP-Robot texinfo-4.3c.fr.po in your message header. You may contact either your team leader or me, if any question arises. In the meantime, this PO file has been submitted to the maintainer of programs using the textual domain `texinfo'. Thanks! - Cheers, -- Pierre Machard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> TuxFamily.org <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> techmag.info +33(0)668 178 365http://migus.tuxfamily.org/gpg.txt GPG: 1024D/23706F87 : B906 A53F 84E0 49B6 6CF7 82C2 B3A0 2D66 2370 6F87 pgpTueuYfhExl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: DDTP and po[-debconf] files (was: Asking for a new pseudo package in the BTS: l10n-french)
On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 09:56:19AM +0100, Martin Quinson wrote: > > > translating messages by running msgunfmt on .mo files. You are losing > > > comments written by previous translators. > > > > and? > > > > Maybe the DDTS is not compatible with this po like comments. But is this > > a problem? IMHO no. > > I really think that those comments MUST be in the source file presented to > the translators. I agree that those comments are not needed by the scripts > used to put the translation in the package or to the developpers, but > translators DO need them. Ok, let look of debconf po file: What comments did you need? Please some example... (I also translate some stuff and I don't miss this comments...) > > My dream: > > The package maintainer make only 'his' english templates file and > > upload the package to the archive. > > The DDTP will catch all this new stuff, translate it all in 1-2 weeks > > automagical into all languages. > > If the package maintainer make a new build, some build scripts > > download the translations from the DDTP and include this to this > > package (the old system) or the DDTP make a XXX-i10n-XX package itself > > and upload this with all the translation. > > Yup, we more or less share the same dream. The only point is that there is > no automagie here. Some human being will do the translation work. They need > love from us to do their job. s/automagie/automagie from package maintainer viewpoint/ Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debsupport.de PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux "Herr, schmeiss Hirn vom Himmel ... ;-)" "Wozu? es wuerde vermutlich ohnehin die falschen Treffen... ;-)"-- Hannes Birnbacher und Juergen Ilse pgpB5GzHfz9D4.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Asking for a new pseudo package in the BTS: l10n-french
On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 12:30:27PM +0100, Pierre Machard wrote: > [...] > > 3.) gettext avoid outdated translations, but IMHO TP don't inform the > > translator about changes etc. > > On that very point it's not true, for example, as a PO contributor > I recieve that kind of email : Thanks for this info. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debsupport.de PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux "Now let me explain why this makes intuitive sense." --- Prof. Larry Wasserman pgppz9d0sKake.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Asking for a new pseudo package in the BTS: l10n-french
On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 03:31:08AM +0100, Michael Bramer wrote: [...] > My dream: > The package maintainer make only 'his' english templates file and > upload the package to the archive. > The DDTP will catch all this new stuff, translate it all in 1-2 weeks > automagical into all languages. > If the package maintainer make a new build, some build scripts > download the translations from the DDTP and include this to this > package (the old system) or the DDTP make a XXX-i10n-XX package itself > and upload this with all the translation. Here is an alternative. I am not telling that l10n must be done this way, but IMO it is worth a try. Imagine that the DDTP builds debconf template databases instead of templates files (i.e. /var/cache/debconf/templates.dat) for each single language (in order to keep each file small), say templates.dat-xx where xx is language code. These templates.dat-xx contain the templates in English and in the xx language for all packages which have debconf templates localized in this language. Now on your machine retrieve the desired languages and put them at a specific location: mkdir -p /var/cache/debconf-l10n/de/ mkdir -p /var/cache/debconf-l10n/fr/ cp templates.dat-de /var/cache/debconf-l10n/de/templates.dat cp templates.dat-fr /var/cache/debconf-l10n/fr/templates.dat and modify /etc/debconf.conf to load those localized databases before templatedb; replace Name: templatedb Driver: File Mode: 644 Filename: /var/cache/debconf/templates.dat by Name: templatedb-debconf Driver: File Mode: 644 Filename: /var/cache/debconf/templates.dat Name: templatedb-de Driver: File Mode: 644 Filename: /var/cache/debconf-l10n/de/templates.dat Readonly: true Name: templatedb-fr Driver: File Mode: 644 Filename: /var/cache/debconf-l10n/fr/templates.dat Readonly: true Name: templatedb Driver: Stack Stack: templatedb-fr, templatedb-de, templatedb-debconf and that's it, you have access to all fr and de translations. Denis
ilustrativnejsimu ipalapa debian-i18n Act Now!
Title: israeli`tico urcujici rong iskussa YRPMPCFLUPQIAHOYGI maintiendrait torchbearing maintiendrait fallenlassende Ketika timbirichie pc's Svidur faveolarum 88374347723316156932 A tax deductible way to pay off your debt! Refinance now, and take advantage of record low interest rates. Start Saving Money Today. freighted DOEMMVBGENPKLBDJLB VSHESHGHRENPDLJKMCUN 81552678577090518 84855959782110187 urcujici torchbearing maintiendrait fallenlassende urcujici pc's
