Re: Bash /dev/tcp and /dev/udp

[Jon Dowland]

On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 09:42:50AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> What's the real problem with /dev/{tcp|udp}?

My issue with it is having phantom files that only exist in
one shell on the system, could clash with real files
(although that is more or less totally unlikely). I think
that having the shell re-implement netcat to be a violation
of "do one thing and do it well". I've never came across a
script on debian or elsewhere that required this
functionality enabled. Indeed I'm horrified to find this
feature enabled on RHEL boxes.


-- 
Jon Dowland


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[Fwd: XS-X-Vcs-Svn or XS-Vcs-Svn was: [Pkg-kde-extras] Re: rev 4976 - kde-extras/digikam/trunk/debian]

[Mark Purcell]

 Original Message 
Subject: XS-X-Vcs-Svn or XS-Vcs-Svn was: [Pkg-kde-extras] Re: rev 4976 -  
   kde-extras/digikam/trunk/debian
From:"Mark Purcell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:Fri, November 24, 2006 11:54 am
To:  "Achim Bohnet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc:  "Ana Guerrero" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 "Peter Eisentraut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 "Debian KDE Extras Team" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--

> On Friday, 24. November 2006 00:29, Achim Bohnet wrote:
>
> Anyone knows a bit more about all this?  Is XS-X-Vcs-Svn or
> XS-Vcs-Svn the way to go?

Achim,

I saw your commit and thought what an excellent idea, as otherwise people
don't know where to find the svn repo.

All we need is a standard way of doing it.

That is a discussion for debian-devel.. :-)

Mark





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Re: [Fwd: XS-X-Vcs-Svn or XS-Vcs-Svn was: [Pkg-kde-extras] Re: rev 4976 - kde-extras/digikam/trunk/debian]

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 12:03:05PM -, Mark Purcell wrote:
> > Anyone knows a bit more about all this?  Is XS-X-Vcs-Svn or
> > XS-Vcs-Svn the way to go?

XS-Vcs-Svn is the way to go, see #391023.

While you are at it you can also add XS-Vcs-Browser, pointing to an
http:// -browsable URL, but please note that it is not yet supported by
the PTS web interface. Its on my TODO list, but my Ph.D. thesis need to
be completed in a week from now :-)

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -*- Computer Science PhD student @ Uny Bologna, Italy
[EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/
(15:56:48)  Zack: e la demo dema ?/\All one has to do is hit the
(15:57:15)  Bac: no, la demo scema\/right keys at the right time


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Description: Digital signature

Bug#400201: ITP: tango -- TANGO is an object oriented distributed control system using CORBA

[Frederic-Emmanuel PICCA]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: "Frederic-Emmanuel PICCA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


* Package name: tango
  Version : 5.5.2
  Upstream Author : The Tango team <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://www.esrf.eu/Infrastructure/Computing/tango
* License : (GPL)
  Programming Lang: (C++)
  Description : TANGO is an object oriented distributed control system 
using CORBA

 TANGO is an object oriented distributed control system using CORBA.
 .
 In TANGO all objects are representations of devices.  The devices can
 be on the same computer or distributed over a number of computers
 interconnected by a network. Communication inter devices is done using
 CORBA and can be synchronous, asynchronous or event driven.
 .
 The object model in TANGO supports methods, attributes and properties.
 TANGO provides an API which hides all the details of network access and
 provides object browsing, discovery and security features.
 .
 Permanent data is stored in a Mysql database.
 .
 TANGO is being actively developed as a collaborative effort between the
 ESRF (www.esrf.eu), Soleil (synchrotron-soleil.fr), Alba (www.cells.es)
 and Elettra institutes (www.elettra.trieste.it).

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 4.0
  APT prefers testing
  APT policy: (500, 'testing')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
Kernel: Linux 2.6.17-2-686
Locale: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (charmap=UTF-8) (ignored: LC_ALL 
set to [EMAIL PROTECTED])


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Many products and services are for sale including farm machinery and merchandise, livestock, tanks, pumps, chainsaws, cars, plants, clothing, banking, insurance and crafts.

[Nat]

on Saturday afternoon with the Bullock and Bull Ride.
With guest speakers, plenty of food and drink outlets and live
entertainment, there will be more than enough to keep you there all day.
Teams from all over Queensland attend this event.

ddd

*** CNHC *** CNHC *** CNHC ***

Trade Date: Friday, November 24, 2006
Company: China Health Management Corp.
Symbol: CNHC
Price: $1.34
Target: $10

CNHC BREAKING NEWS:
China Health Management Corp. Announces the Hospital's Setup Proposal
Received Additional Approval from Kunming City, Yunnan, China

CNHC IS BOUND TO BLOW UP! THIS AMAZING NEWS ALONG WITH HEAVY PR PROMOS
ARE DRIVING IT NUTS! WATCH CNHC GO OFF THE CHAIN ON FRIDAY NOV 24!

ddd

Saturday night a barbeque and entertainment will be held at the Creek.
Teams from all over Queensland attend this event. Nomination for
Saturday and Sunday will include tea on both days and Sunday lunch.
Garden open by appointment at other times.
A family weekend drawing people from as far west as Cloncurry and south
from Townsville. A barbeque and bar will be operating at the sign in
grounds on both days.
The competition will attract elite players with the main competition
contested by the top eight nations.
The middle weekend features Gala Day in the heart of Bright with a
street parade and outdoor concerts.
The funds raised will go to the Leukaemia Foundation.
The weekend begins with a campdraft and ends with a rodeo, with many of
the events being children-oriented.
Plus, there will be a diverse range of products for your leisure time.
Nomination for Saturday and Sunday will include tea on both days and
Sunday lunch.
Biggenden airstrip has the beautiful backdrop of Mount Walsh. The Craft
Fair will consist of craft stalls, exhibitions, demonstrations, raffles,
art displays, a barbecue, devonshire tea, classic car display, boat
display as well as give aways.
on Saturday afternoon with the Bullock and Bull Ride. The markets have a
multitude of stalls offeri. The weekend begins with a campdraft and ends
with a rodeo, with many of the events being children-oriented.
Artistic Direction is by renowned organist and conductor Douglas
Lawrence OAM.
There will be plenty of sideshow attractions to entertain the children.
on Saturday afternoon with the Bullock and Bull Ride. Evening concerts
and other entertainment. There will be lots of prizes to be won and
great fun for all.
It promises to be an action-packed weekend. Races are on Saturday and
Monday with the rodeo on Sunday. Artistic Direction is by renowned
organist and conductor Douglas Lawrence OAM.
Also available for sale are plants, dried flowers and gifts, cut flowers
and light refreshments. There will be plenty of sideshow attractions to
entertain the children. Friday you will be entertained with concert
performed by the Richmond State School, guided tour of the Marine Fossil
Museum Kronosaurus Korner with the start of the first Tagged. Plus,
there will be a diverse range of products for your leisure time. This is
an opportunity for you to come along and see working displays at the
Historical Society. Both seasoned off-road drivers and first timers are
welcome.
The Craft Fair will consist of craft stalls, exhibitions,
demonstrations, raffles, art displays, a barbecue, devonshire tea,
classic car display, boat display as well as give aways.
Saturday night a barbeque and entertainment will be held at the Creek.
Biggenden airstrip has the beautiful backdrop of Mount Walsh.
A barbeque and bar will be operating at the sign in grounds on both
days. With guest speakers, plenty of food and drink outlets and live
entertainment, there will be more than enough to keep you there all day.
Spectators can witness first hand .
This is an opportunity for you to come along and see working displays at
the Historical Society. There will be a stop for lunch and.
A highlight is Young Guns Day, where revellers mix and mingle in the
party. The competition will attract elite players with the main
competition contested by the top eight nations. Cabaret all three
nights. There are trophies for A,B and C grades. Social functions for
the sailors will be held on the Saturday night. Artistic Direction is by
renowned organist and conductor Douglas Lawrence OAM.
The markets have a multitude of stalls offeri.
on Saturday afternoon with the Bullock and Bull Ride.
The funds raised will go to the Leukaemia Foundation. Teams from all
over Queensland attend this event. Enjoy the views while meeting the
locals or catching up with old friends.
There will be plenty of sideshow attractions to entertain the children.
The funds raised will go to the Leukaemia Foundation. Once again it will
be a wonderful showcase for all of Kingaroy Shires many and varied
agricultural items, livestock and produce as well as e. The weekend
begins with a campdraft and ends with a rodeo, with many of the events
being children-oriented.
Not only for the enjoyment and information of the current community and
for festa .
A highlight is Young Gu

This is the second article in a series of reviews of the new iUnits ETF's.

[Dailey L. Caspar]

In every country, investors are biased towards investing in their own
country.
The news wires buzz with analysts recommendations to buy, hold, or sell
an investment, or to underweight or overweight it. When is it a good
thing?

GGG

*** CNHC *** CNHC *** CNHC ***

Trade Date: Friday, November 24, 2006
Company: China Health Management Corp.
Symbol: CNHC
Price: $1.34
Target: $10

CNHC BREAKING NEWS:
China Health Management Corp. Announces the Hospital's Setup Proposal
Received Additional Approval from Kunming City, Yunnan, China

CNHC IS BOUND TO BLOW UP! THIS AMAZING NEWS ALONG WITH HEAVY PR PROMOS
ARE DRIVING IT NUTS! WATCH CNHC GO OFF THE CHAIN ON FRIDAY NOV 24!

GGG

How would one go about doing this in a cost efficient manner? In fact,
good past performance is more oftenassociated with poor future returns,
for reasons that go to the veryheart of the theory of investment.
The majority of these funds trade on the American stock exchanges.
First, we will cover the basics and work out the absolute minimum amount
you should have in bonds.
Dell have challenging growth plans for the center and are now seeking
ambitious candidates to join them and develop their careers accordingly.
Mutual fund investors, on the other hand, would tend to benefit from
less risky investments, and greater diversification.
You can now put as much of your RRSP into foreign securities as you like
with no penalty.
You'll learn how to adjust a portfolio to compensate for risk and about
the theory of asset allocation in light of real world market behavior.
We translate investment research into practical advice for ordinary
self-directed RRSP investing, with focus on low-cost exchange traded
funds and mutual funds.
Canadian mutual funds are in general a lot more expensive than American
funds, and there aren't a lot of different asset classes to choose from.
The overall maximally efficient portfolio would be to hold a global
portfolio of equities roughly in proportion to global market
capitalization. While the details remain to be seen, adding some real
return bonds to your portfolio is probably a good idea.
Investing in what you know is the last thing you want to do.
com provides Windows security news, articles, tutorials, software
listings and reviews for information security professionals.
That is, the optimal allocation of capital to companies and to countries
is roughly optimal.
Famously, Peter Lynch wrote in books like One Up On Wall Street  that
you should be able to pick great stocks by reflecting on things you see
in your job and in your daily life. bond iUnits ETF is changing into a
general short-bond index. Unlike the changes to XSP and XIN ETFs, the
changes to the bond ETFs are across the board good news for Canadian
investors.
In this article I'll explain the psychology behind why most fail to max
out their RRSP contributions, and what you can do to make sure that you
do contribute enough to your RRSP.
In fact, good past performance is more oftenassociated with poor future
returns, for reasons that go to the veryheart of the theory of
investment.
Canadian mutual funds are in general a lot more expensive than American
funds, and there aren't a lot of different asset classes to choose from.
This article will take a look at how you should structure your
investments under the new rules. The other new bond fund, XRB, will be
some sort of real-return bond index ETF.
It's one of the most desolate places in Canada, and it's not really
clear why anyone would ever want to live there, but then everyone's
different.
This is a huge and wondeful change: You can now own as much United
States, European, and overseas content as you like in your RRSP. In this
article we'll explore whatyou can learn from looking at historical data,
and what you can't. There areseveral gross errors in this analysis that
investors ought to be aware of.
The answer may surprise you. Given that the Federal Govt. The new XTR
and XDV funds may be useful for some investors, but the average investor
is better served by a straight equities index like XIC. The fees and the
investment objectives of each exchange traded fund is changing.
If you find yourself carrying a balance from month to month, especially
if it's credit card debt, you're in a financial crisis. I haven't
included this one in the Book Reviews main list because it is not
specifically about investing, it's more an economic history of the
world.
In fact, good past performance is more oftenassociated with poor future
returns, for reasons that go to the veryheart of the theory of
investment. Thepast performance of a fund, stock, or even stock market
as a whole isno indication of the future return. That is, the optimal
allocation of capital to companies and to countries is roughly optimal.
And who knows where interest rates are going to go?
just eliminated the foreign content restrictions in RRSP's, it's a good
time to review your global asset allocation! This article will take a
look at how you should structure

Re: Bash /dev/tcp and /dev/udp

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/24/06 06:06, Jon Dowland wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 09:42:50AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> What's the real problem with /dev/{tcp|udp}?
> 
> My issue with it is having phantom files that only exist in
> one shell on the system, could clash with real files

That's reasonable.

> (although that is more or less totally unlikely). I think
> that having the shell re-implement netcat to be a violation
> of "do one thing and do it well".

Hmmm.  A large, complicated shell like bash broke that stricture
long ago, no?

>I've never came across a
> script on debian or elsewhere that required this
> functionality enabled. Indeed I'm horrified to find this
> feature enabled on RHEL boxes.
> 
> 


- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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=2O8j
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Elive requires donation to download

[Ottavio Caruso]

Elive , based on Debian,
requires a donation, however small, to allow downloading. I wonder if
this legally sound.

Ottavio


 

Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com


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Re: Elive requires donation to download

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/24/06 08:04, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
> Elive , based on Debian,
> requires a donation, however small, to allow downloading. I wonder if
> this legally sound.

Sure.  That page links to http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
which explicitly states, in big, bold letters:
Distributing free software is an opportunity to raise funds
for development. Don't waste it!

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)

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=0Ct8
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Re: Elive requires donation to download

[Federico Di Gregorio]

Il giorno ven, 24/11/2006 alle 09.09 -0600, Ron Johnson ha scritto:
> On 11/24/06 08:04, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
> > Elive , based on Debian,
> > requires a donation, however small, to allow downloading. I wonder if
> > this legally sound. 

And if you don't really like that just pay, download it and then make it
available for free from your own server. That would be perfectly legal
too..

federico

-- 
Federico Di Gregorio http://people.initd.org/fog
Debian GNU/Linux Developer[EMAIL PROTECTED]
INIT.D Developer   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  monja: che c'entra, l'importante è sapersi usare -- 


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Re: Elive requires donation to download

[Ben Armstrong]

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 06:04:13 -0800 (PST)
Ottavio Caruso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Elive , based on Debian,
> requires a donation, however small, to allow downloading. I wonder if
> this legally sound.

The DFSG explicitly specifies that licenses of our software must allow people 
to charge for distribution in article #1:

http://www.us.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines

1. Free Redistribution

The license of a Debian component may not restrict any party from
selling or giving away the software as a component of an aggregate
software distribution containing programs from several different
sources. The license may not require a royalty or other fee for such
sale.

Besides, your assertion is false.  Elive does not require a donation to 
download:

"- If you don't care about the future of Elive, and you really think its 
possible to live off nothing, or you just can't possibly make a minor donation, 
then you can download Elive from a slow server. We recommend that you verify 
the MD5sum and download it with 'wget -c' because sometimes this download 
stalls."

Ben
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Re: Elive requires donation to download

[Paul Cager]

> Elive , based on Debian,
> requires a donation, however small, to allow downloading. I wonder if
> this legally sound.
>
> Ottavio

>From the page you referred to above:

"If you don't care about the future of Elive, and you really think its
possible to live off nothing, or you just can't possibly make a minor
donation, then you can download Elive from a slow server."






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Re: Elive requires donation to download

[Ozgur Karatas]

To become free?
This is very simple :) In the middle , you must give the support. We say that 
the Debian GNU\Linux. When you do , I loved the business but honour me; 
anything can't become good from the Debian! If it comes from your Debian 
distrobution developing..
thanks,

 ,''`.  Ozgur Karatas
: :' :  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
`. `'   http://www.ozgurkaratas.com
  `-Powered By Debian GNU\Linux

 Ben Armstrong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> demiş ki: 
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 06:04:13 -0800 (PST)
> Ottavio Caruso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Elive , based on Debian,
> > requires a donation, however small, to allow downloading. I wonder if
> > this legally sound.
> 
> The DFSG explicitly specifies that licenses of our software must allow people 
> to charge for distribution in article #1:
> 
> http://www.us.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
> 
> 1. Free Redistribution
> 
> The license of a Debian component may not restrict any party from
> selling or giving away the software as a component of an aggregate
> software distribution containing programs from several different
> sources. The license may not require a royalty or other fee for such
> sale.
> 
> Besides, your assertion is false.  Elive does not require a donation to 
> download:
> 
> "- If you don't care about the future of Elive, and you really think its 
> possible to live off nothing, or you just can't possibly make a minor 
> donation, then you can download Elive from a slow server. We recommend that 
> you verify the MD5sum and download it with 'wget -c' because sometimes this 
> download stalls."
> 
> Ben
> --
>  ,-.  nSLUGhttp://www.nslug.ns.ca   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>  [ pgp 7F DA 09 4B BA 2C 0D E0 1B B1 31 ED C6 A9 39 4F ]

Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-11-21 11:06:23, schrieb Marco d'Itri:
> On Nov 20, Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Debian Users!  -  I have read it even on THIS list,
> > that some peoples remove it since it is to huge.
> People are stupid. Next.

N.C.  except  :-)

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-11-22 01:15:59, schrieb Jari Aalto:

> The memory footprint[1] of bash is bothering in old PC's, so there are

But what do you mean with an OLD PC?

A 486?  Such computers should run busybox anyway.

For example my IBM TP570 (PII/366MHz/192MB)
is happy with /bin/bash and fast enough.

> real benefits trying to make without it; even on command line sessions
> where alternative shell, like /bin/mksh, whose capabilities will 
> surpise even the bash enthusiasts.

I have tried a bunch of them and some have realy nice extension.  :-)

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello David and *,

Am 2006-11-22 20:06:29, schrieb David Weinehall:
> On Wed, Nov 22, 2006 at 07:31:37PM +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> [snip]
> >   ${#NAME}
> >   ${parameter:-word}
> >   ${parameter:=word}
> 
> These are supported in SuSv3 compliant shells too.

Ah, OK.

> 
> >   ${parameter:offset}
> >   ${parameter:offset:length}
> 
> These are not.

:-(

> >   disown
> 
> You actually use job-control in your shell-scripts?  Interesting...

Some of my scripts/programs working on all $USER serial and since
only one $USER at once is not enough, I span subprocesses and disown
it.  Each subprocess write a PID and if it terminates, it delete it.

Now, the mainprocess watch it and start only a given number of
subprocesses.  I use this since several years without any problems
on a bunch of my fileservers where I have at least 500 users/server.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Bash /dev/tcp and /dev/udp

[Jon Dowland]

On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 08:25:27AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 11/24/06 06:06, Jon Dowland wrote:
> > I think that having the shell re-implement netcat to be
> > a violation of "do one thing and do it well".
> 
> Hmmm.  A large, complicated shell like bash broke that
> stricture long ago, no?

Absolutely: but that doesn't give it a free licence to
continue doing so :)

-- 
Jon Dowland


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 22:56 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 19:33 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > > I don't see perl used that much for maintainer scripts, or daemon
> > > scripts.
> > 
> > Exactly the *point*.  So why isn't this your target?
> > 
> > > Some prefer bash and see no problems. Others consider bash's memory
> > > consumption a problem when compared to other alternatives.
> > 
> > The only alternative in Debian is dash, which explicitly says it's not a 
> > replacement:
> > 
> >  "bash" is a better shell for most users, since it has some nice
> >  features absent from "dash", and is a required part of the system.
> 
> This refers to inteactive use. dash suits well for scripts.

You miss the point.  If there is any interactive use at all, then bash
needs to be on the system.  Embedded systems are nifty, but they are not
an issue for Debian.

Thomas



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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 22:54 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> David Weinehall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:09:49PM +0100, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
> > 
> > Now the choice of 464kB or 4528kB on a desktop where you're actually
> > using the shell for interactive things is probably not a big deal,
> > personally I'd never use dash, posh, or busybox (except for rescue
> > purposes)  on a desktop (or server, for that matter) other than for
> > scripts.
> 
> Actually it is. In desktop (low memory PC; 64M or less), you open
> several terminals to work efficiently. It's quite natural to have
> 10-20 open.
> 
> Count 20 x bash against some other alternative shell and the
> consumed memory becomes apparent.

Somebody needs to explain to Jari the concept of a shared text segment.

Thomas



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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[David Weinehall]

On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 11:10:19AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 22:56 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > 
> > > On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 19:33 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > > > I don't see perl used that much for maintainer scripts, or daemon
> > > > scripts.
> > > 
> > > Exactly the *point*.  So why isn't this your target?
> > > 
> > > > Some prefer bash and see no problems. Others consider bash's memory
> > > > consumption a problem when compared to other alternatives.
> > > 
> > > The only alternative in Debian is dash, which explicitly says it's not a 
> > > replacement:
> > > 
> > >  "bash" is a better shell for most users, since it has some nice
> > >  features absent from "dash", and is a required part of the system.
> > 
> > This refers to inteactive use. dash suits well for scripts.
> 
> You miss the point.  If there is any interactive use at all, then bash
> needs to be on the system.  Embedded systems are nifty, but they are not
> an issue for Debian.

You miss the point too...  dash is suitable scripts, and any Linux
machine, embedded or not, runs lots of scripts.  dash runs those scripts
faster.  To be able to run those scripts at all, it needs the scripts to
be free from bashisms.

You can use whatever bashisms you like when you're working
interactively, that won't hinder dash from executing shells on boot and
elsewhere.  Using bashisms in scripts does however cause a problem.

Oh, and there *are* other suitable interactive shells than bash.  tcsh,
ksh, zsh, rc...  Whether any of these actually consume less memory than
bash, I cannot say, since I'm a bash user myself on the desktop.  Yet
all the scripts I write run perfectly well (and faster) in dash.


Regards: David
-- 
 /) David Weinehall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> /) Rime on my window   (\
//  ~   //  Diamond-white roses of fire //
\)  http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/   Beautiful hoar-frost   (/


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 21:08 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> You can use whatever bashisms you like when you're working
> interactively, that won't hinder dash from executing shells on boot and
> elsewhere.  Using bashisms in scripts does however cause a problem.

I think it's time to realize that "bash" specifies a programming
language, and so does "dash".

Instead of focusing and hammering again and again on /bin/sh, why not
instead ask maintainers to do #!/bin/dash?

> Oh, and there *are* other suitable interactive shells than bash.  tcsh,
> ksh, zsh, rc...  Whether any of these actually consume less memory than
> bash, I cannot say, since I'm a bash user myself on the desktop.  Yet
> all the scripts I write run perfectly well (and faster) in dash.

I said that dash was not a substitute for bash, by its own claim.  This
is like a game of whackamole.  If the claim is made that dash involves
less disk space or memory use, it's nearly irrelevant, because bash will
be there anyway.

There may well be advantages to dash for this or that application.  So
then, maintainers should be encouraged to use it.  The best way, of
course, is #!/bin/dash.

Thomas



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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy

[Florian Weimer]

* David Weinehall:

> We do rely quite heavily on the glibc too, yet its documentation is
> nonfree...

The manpages-dev package documents most of the important interfaces,
and it's in main. 8-)


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Bruce Sass]

On Fri November 24 2006 13:15, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> Instead of focusing and hammering again and again on /bin/sh, why not
> instead ask maintainers to do #!/bin/dash?

because bash offers a larger superset of sh features than dash, and "sh" 
is a standard part of System V-like unix systems like Linux


> There may well be advantages to dash for this or that application. 
> So then, maintainers should be encouraged to use it.  The best way,
> of course, is #!/bin/dash.

and stop using "sh" altogether, or should the www.emdebian.org people 
fork the entire distribution?


- Bruce


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Re: Bash /dev/tcp and /dev/udp

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/24/06 11:54, Jon Dowland wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 08:25:27AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 11/24/06 06:06, Jon Dowland wrote:
>>> I think that having the shell re-implement netcat to be
>>> a violation of "do one thing and do it well".
>> Hmmm.  A large, complicated shell like bash broke that
>> stricture long ago, no?
> 
> Absolutely: but that doesn't give it a free licence to
> continue doing so :)

Sure it does.  How long ago did Perl stop being just a Practical
Extraction and Report Language?

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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U39ZnWEF3on2RLeBlzMv/2U=
=r3W9
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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 14:03 -0700, Bruce Sass wrote:
> On Fri November 24 2006 13:15, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> > Instead of focusing and hammering again and again on /bin/sh, why not
> > instead ask maintainers to do #!/bin/dash?
> 
> because bash offers a larger superset of sh features than dash, and "sh" 
> is a standard part of System V-like unix systems like Linux

But #!/bin/sh scripts aren't allowed to use those.  What I'm saying is
that the energy spent on making rules about #!/bin/sh would be better
spent encouraging people to simply switch--when appropriate--to
#!/bin/dash.

> > There may well be advantages to dash for this or that application. 
> > So then, maintainers should be encouraged to use it.  The best way,
> > of course, is #!/bin/dash.
> 
> and stop using "sh" altogether, or should the www.emdebian.org people 
> fork the entire distribution?

What I said was that *if* it is better for a given script to run with
dash than with bash, the maintainer should be encouraged to say
#!/bin/dash.

I don't think it's my job to start saying what *other* distributions,
which are not Debian, should do.

Thomas



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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Jari Aalto]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 21:08 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
> > You can use whatever bashisms you like when you're working
> > interactively, that won't hinder dash from executing shells on boot and
> > elsewhere.  Using bashisms in scripts does however cause a problem.
> 
> I think it's time to realize that "bash" specifies a programming
> language, and so does "dash".
> 
> Instead of focusing and hammering again and again on /bin/sh, why not
> instead ask maintainers to do #!/bin/dash?

Because the correct is #!/bin/sh and not to be tied on particular shell.

> > Oh, and there *are* other suitable interactive shells than bash.  tcsh,
> > ksh, zsh, rc...  Whether any of these actually consume less memory than
> > bash, I cannot say, since I'm a bash user myself on the desktop.  Yet
> > all the scripts I write run perfectly well (and faster) in dash.
> 
> I said that dash was not a substitute for bash, by its own claim.  This
> is like a game of whackamole.  If the claim is made that dash involves
> less disk space or memory use, it's nearly irrelevant, because bash will
> be there anyway.

Bash is not there "nayway". It is posisble to substitute it for the
reasons explained (memory consumption), without any significant loss of
interactive functionality.
 
> There may well be advantages to dash for this or that application.  So
> then, maintainers should be encouraged to use it.  The best way, of
> course, is #!/bin/dash.

The point was making script sh-agnostic. dash is just an
implementation of sh. Someone may very well use busybox or /bin/posh.

Jari


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 23:55 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > Instead of focusing and hammering again and again on /bin/sh, why not
> > instead ask maintainers to do #!/bin/dash?
> 
> Because the correct is #!/bin/sh and not to be tied on particular shell.

I can't tell what you mean.  There is nothing wrong with using
#!/bin/dash if that's what the maintainer wants to specify.

> Bash is not there "nayway". It is posisble to substitute it for the
> reasons explained (memory consumption), without any significant loss of
> interactive functionality.

And around and around we go.  Dash itself say it is not suitable for
interactive use, and, bash is an Essential part of Debian.
>  
> The point was making script sh-agnostic. dash is just an
> implementation of sh. Someone may very well use busybox or /bin/posh.

Sure, if the maintainer thinks one of those is best, they could be used
too.

Thomas



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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Jari Aalto]

Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Am 2006-11-22 01:15:59, schrieb Jari Aalto:
> 
> > The memory footprint[1] of bash is bothering in old PC's, so there are
> 
> But what do you mean with an OLD PC?
> 
> A 486?  Such computers should run busybox anyway.

PII with 62-128M, fairly common.
 
> For example my IBM TP570 (PII/366MHz/192MB)
> is happy with /bin/bash and fast enough.

"fast enought" is in the eye of a beholder. Try with PII/64M with
X deskop with 20 sessions of bash open. And opening firefox and xchat.
 
> > real benefits trying to make without it; even on command line sessions
> > where alternative shell, like /bin/mksh, whose capabilities will 
> > surpise even the bash enthusiasts.
> 
> I have tried a bunch of them and some have realy nice extension.  :-)

Anyway. What works for some is no indication of that it works for all.
I'm not sure why people are so enthustiastic with bash. It's just a
shell and there are alternatives to it - which are quite nice.

Jari


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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 00:02 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> "fast enought" is in the eye of a beholder. Try with PII/64M with
> X deskop with 20 sessions of bash open. And opening firefox and xchat.

What on earth is this nonsense about multiple invocations?  Do you not
understand what shared text is?  
>  
> Anyway. What works for some is no indication of that it works for all.
> I'm not sure why people are so enthustiastic with bash. It's just a
> shell and there are alternatives to it - which are quite nice.

I never understood what was so wonderful about perl.  Yet, Debian
decided to make perl Essential, so there it is.  Such decisions have to
be made.

Nobody is telling you not to use the alternatives.  Go ahead! Use them!
Encourage other people to!

But don't tell me that I *must* use the alternative.

Thomas



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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Jari Aalto]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 22:54 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > David Weinehall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > 
> > > On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 07:09:49PM +0100, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
> > > 
> > > Now the choice of 464kB or 4528kB on a desktop where you're actually
> > > using the shell for interactive things is probably not a big deal,
> > > personally I'd never use dash, posh, or busybox (except for rescue
> > > purposes)  on a desktop (or server, for that matter) other than for
> > > scripts.
> > 
> > Actually it is. In desktop (low memory PC; 64M or less), you open
> > several terminals to work efficiently. It's quite natural to have
> > 10-20 open.
> > 
> > Count 20 x bash against some other alternative shell and the
> > consumed memory becomes apparent.
> 
> Somebody needs to explain to Jari the concept of a shared text segment.

And why do you think that? please take a look at the RES values.

Jari


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Bruce Sass]

On Fri November 24 2006 14:42, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 14:03 -0700, Bruce Sass wrote:
> > On Fri November 24 2006 13:15, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> > > Instead of focusing and hammering again and again on /bin/sh, why
> > > not instead ask maintainers to do #!/bin/dash?
> >
> > because bash offers a larger superset of sh features than dash, and
> > "sh" is a standard part of System V-like unix systems like Linux
>
> But #!/bin/sh scripts aren't allowed to use those.  What I'm saying
> is that the energy spent on making rules about #!/bin/sh would be
> better spent encouraging people to simply switch--when
> appropriate--to #!/bin/dash.

If someone uses dash features not included in, both, the spec for "sh" 
and other Bourne shells allowed to become "sh", they should use 
#!/bin/dash. IMO. bash is in the same boat.

> > > There may well be advantages to dash for this or that
> > > application. So then, maintainers should be encouraged to use it.
> > >  The best way, of course, is #!/bin/dash.
> >
> > and stop using "sh" altogether, or should the www.emdebian.org
> > people fork the entire distribution?
>
> What I said was that *if* it is better for a given script to run with
> dash than with bash, the maintainer should be encouraged to say
> #!/bin/dash.

Sure, but since all "sh" scripts would be better off if they specified 
dash as their command interpreter... #!/bin/sh use would disappear.

> I don't think it's my job to start saying what *other* distributions,
> which are not Debian, should do.

but it is Debian's job to be responsive to its users needs and Debian 
has made a choice to strive for susv3 compatibility


- Bruce


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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Jari Aalto]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 00:02 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > "fast enought" is in the eye of a beholder. Try with PII/64M with
> > X deskop with 20 sessions of bash open. And opening firefox and xchat.
> 
> What on earth is this nonsense about multiple invocations?  Do you not
> understand what shared text is?  
> >  
> > Anyway. What works for some is no indication of that it works for all.
> > I'm not sure why people are so enthustiastic with bash. It's just a
> > shell and there are alternatives to it - which are quite nice.
> 
> I never understood what was so wonderful about perl.  Yet, Debian
> decided to make perl Essential, so there it is.  Such decisions have to
> be made.
> 
> Nobody is telling you not to use the alternatives.  Go ahead! Use them!
> Encourage other people to!
> 
> But don't tell me that I *must* use the alternative.

I'm not sure I follow. I' puzzled why you do not seem benefit in:

- Making scripts sh-agnostict. That is making them portable
- Supporting low end systems with minimal of effort
- Improving the overall awaress of shells

What I gather so far, you have suggested that it is better to 
put the shell name /bin/bash in scripts that /bin/sh. I'm not sure why
should people need to install dash if equivalent sh-implementation
woudl do the same?

Could you elaborate.

Jari


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 23:57 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> And why do you think that? please take a look at the RES values.

I know you don't understand it, because you just appealed to the RSS
values.

If many processes are sharing text, they all get accounted with the size
of the resident text in their RSS, but they are sharing the segment;
they are not each getting their own copy.

Thomas



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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

> I'm not sure I follow. I' puzzled why you do not seem benefit in:
> 
> - Making scripts sh-agnostict. That is making them portable
> - Supporting low end systems with minimal of effort
> - Improving the overall awaress of shells

I don't care about the "awareness" of shells, no.

If we can support low end systems with *minimal* effort, fine, but you
are asking lots of *extra* effort.

I don't care about making anything sh-agnostic.  bash is just a
language; dash is just a language.  We don't insist that our C programs
be C-compiler-agnostic; we don't insist that lisp or scheme programs be
dialect-agnostic; why should we insist this for shell programs?

If a maintainer wants to make a script that works with dash and posh and
busybox, they can do that too.  They can even have a debconf option that
asks the user which #! line to use.

None of this requires this obsessive nattering about /bin/sh.

Thomas



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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 15:12 -0700, Bruce Sass wrote:
> Sure, but since all "sh" scripts would be better off if they specified 
> dash as their command interpreter... #!/bin/sh use would disappear.

So?

> > I don't think it's my job to start saying what *other* distributions,
> > which are not Debian, should do.
> 
> but it is Debian's job to be responsive to its users needs and Debian 
> has made a choice to strive for susv3 compatibility

I don't think you understand what "compatibility" means in this context.
It does not mean that you can substitute any component of the system
with a different standards-compliant version and everything must
continue to work.

Our users needs do not, by and large, include embedded systems.

Thomas



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Re: Fwd: FC6 downloads and installs

[Adrian von Bidder]

On Sunday 19 November 2006 01:35, Michelle Konzack wrote:
[FC core download stats]
> Blahblah!
...
> So the download statistics would be false anyway.

It's not necessary to be so arrogant. In their email, they acknowledge that 
proxies etc. have influenced their stats.  Their numbers are a lower bound, 
and if their update tool by default doesn't use non-RH mirrors, probably a 
quite reasonable one.

I *guess* that Debian has a much higher percentage of downloads through 
mirrors where we don't have the log files compared to FC, so this obviously 
doesn't change that we won't be able to come even close to a reasonable 
lower bound, though.

cheers
-- vbi

-- 
featured product: Debian GNU/Linux - http://debian.org


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Automatically collect hardware information from users?

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

I just discovered ubuntu got a tool I have been planning to make for
Debian, the hwdb-client package making it trivial for the user to
submit information about their hardware to a central location.  The
source for it is available from
ftp://ftp.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/h/hwdb-client/>, and the
data is submitted to http://hwdb.ubuntu.com/>.

Anyone know more about this?  That database would make the life of us
discover-data maintainers a lot easier.  Should we set up our own
database, or can we get access to and a copy of the Ubuntu database?

I notice Mandriva have a similar system also called hwdb-clients, and
it report info to http://hwdb.mandriva.com/>.  Is this a similar
system or the same system?

It should be fairly easy to port the Ubuntu client to Debian, and the
user-visible server part is a script accepting HTTP put/post.  It seem
to be very similar to the popularity-contest HTTP collector.  The
interesting parts of the server on the other hand would be the parts
making reports based on the reported hardware information.

Friendly,
-- 
Petter Reinholdtsen


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Descriptions of mono packages

[Enrico Zini]

Dear Mono developers,

Please write useful long descriptions for your packages.

For example:

$ apt-cache show libmono-sharpzip0.84-cil
Description: Mono SharpZipLib library
 Mono is a platform for running and developing applications based on the
 ECMA/ISO Standards. Mono is an open source effort led by Novell.
 Mono provides a complete CLR (Common Language Runtime) including compiler and
 runtime, which can produce and execute CIL (Common Intermediate Language)
 bytecode (aka assemblies), and a class library.
 .
 This package contains the Mono SharpZipLib library version 0.84.

This is not a useful long description: the first 5 lines are the same
for all mono packages, and as such become useless in describing this
package.  The last line is a copy of the short description, plus the
version field, and still doesn't tell anything about what SharpZipLib
does.

Please try to write descriptions that try to answer questions like
these:

 * Why should I install it?
 * I want to develop mono applications: should I install it?
 * I want to run mono applications: should I install it?
 * What is the problem that gets solved by installing this package?

Please also see this other thread for a previous discussion on the
same problem: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/07/msg00281.html


Ciao,

Enrico who got frustrated when trying to categorise it.

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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Bruce Sass]

On Fri November 24 2006 15:24, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 15:12 -0700, Bruce Sass wrote:
> > Sure, but since all "sh" scripts would be better off if they
> > specified dash as their command interpreter... #!/bin/sh use would
> > disappear.
>
> So?

Just pointing out that encouraging #!/bin/dash instead of #!/bin/sh when 
a script would be better off with a lighter shell than bash results in 
the demise of #!/bin/sh.

> > > I don't think it's my job to start saying what *other*
> > > distributions, which are not Debian, should do.
> >
> > but it is Debian's job to be responsive to its users needs and
> > Debian has made a choice to strive for susv3 compatibility
>
> I don't think you understand what "compatibility" means in this
> context. It does not mean that you can substitute any component of
> the system with a different standards-compliant version and
> everything must continue to work.

So, what does "compatibility" mean in this context?

> Our users needs do not, by and large, include embedded systems.

I am glad that "by and large" is not the standard, for that would make 
Debian somewhat less universal than it is.


- Bruce


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Re: Fwd: FC6 downloads and installs

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 11:52:36PM +0100, Adrian von Bidder wrote:
> 
> I *guess* that Debian has a much higher percentage of downloads through 
> mirrors where we don't have the log files compared to FC, so this obviously 
> doesn't change that we won't be able to come even close to a reasonable 
> lower bound, though.
> 
I'd say that zero is a perfectly reasonable lower bound.  There is no
way it can be lower than that.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
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http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Hubert Chan]

On 23 Nov 2006 22:40:01 +0200, Jari Aalto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

> My point. If there is explicit "Depends: bash", then someone can post
> a patch to provide alternative solution to a person who may not know
> alternative constructs (having learned only bashism).

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to do here.  Can you
please explain what dependencies have to do with wishlist bugreports?

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Bug#212028: denumerable presuppose

[Kelvin Raines]

Alphonse,

Thanks. Call u back,

hone





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Re: Bug#398793: [Adduser-devel] Bug#398793: adduser: Non system wide readable (home) directories should not be 751

[Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña]

On Fri, Nov 17, 2006 at 01:04:31PM +, Stephen Gran wrote:
> 
> As others have pointed out, umask is probably the correct way to make
> sure that your files are not world readable.  This could trivially be
> added to /etc/profile or something.

Yes, there are multiple ways to change Debian's default umask, all of those
are listed in the "Securing Debian Manual":  4.11.11 Setting users umasks
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/securing-debian-howto/ch4.en.html#s4.11.11

If there any alternatives I've missed please say so.

Regards

Javier


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Re: Bash /dev/tcp and /dev/udp

[Greg Norris]

On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 12:06:09PM +, Jon Dowland wrote:
> I've never came across a script on debian or elsewhere that required 
> this functionality enabled. Indeed I'm horrified to find this feature 
> enabled on RHEL boxes.

FWIW, ksh93 (as packaged in Debian) has this functionality enabled... it 
seems to be available by default in various *nix incarnations as well, 
such as Solaris 9 & 10.  This doesn't make the feature a good idea, of 
course, but it does appear to be commonly available.

A quick perusal of the zsh manpage seems to indicate that it can do this 
as well (albeit with quite different syntax), but I didn't take the time 
to verify.


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Re: Bug#400070: RFP: gaia -- Google Earth client

[Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo]

El jue, 23-11-2006 a las 18:50 +0100, Axel Beckert escribió:
> Package: wnpp
> Severity: wishlist
> 
> * Package name: gaia
>   Version : 0.1.0
>   Upstream Author : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> * URL or Web page : http://gaia.serezhkin.com/
> * License : GPLv2
>   Description : Google Earth client
> 
> Gaia is both a free library and free client to Google Earth for Linux,
> *BSD, MacOS X and in future also Windows.

  Sorry, but it seems that Google send a cease&desist letter to gaia
developers, as you can see in their webpage (URL above):

25 November 2006, we've got the letter from Michael Jones, the Chief
Technologist of Google Earth, Google Maps, and Google Local search,
requesting us to cease reverse engineering and improper usage of
licensed data that Google Earth use. We understand and respect Google's
position on the case, so we've removed all downloads from this page and
we ask everybody who have ever downloaded gaia 0.1.0 and prior versions
to delete all files concerned with the project, which include source
code, binary files and image cache (~/.gaia).

-- 
Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 16:28 -0700, Bruce Sass wrote:
> > > but it is Debian's job to be responsive to its users needs and
> > > Debian has made a choice to strive for susv3 compatibility
> >
> > I don't think you understand what "compatibility" means in this
> > context. It does not mean that you can substitute any component of
> > the system with a different standards-compliant version and
> > everything must continue to work.
> 
> So, what does "compatibility" mean in this context?

Debian has *achieved* susv3 compatibility.  There is nothing more to be
done.

A compatible implementation is allowed to have special options "behind
the scenes" which it uses to implement things.  Compatibility (actually,
I believe the term is compliance) refers to the entire system, not its
individual components.
> 
> > Our users needs do not, by and large, include embedded systems.
> 
> I am glad that "by and large" is not the standard, for that would make 
> Debian somewhat less universal than it is.

*Yawn*. 

I don't care about making a distribution suitable for every possible
purpose.  I see no shame in saying that we are suitable for some
purposes and not others.

Thomas



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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 02:21:43PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> If we can support low end systems with *minimal* effort, fine, but you
> are asking lots of *extra* effort.

I think the two of you are spending far more effort *arguing* about this
than it actually takes, in practice, to keep Debian scripts invoking /bin/sh
compatible with dash.  That is, after all, the point you're currently
arguing against, even though this result is already implied by policy's
current mandate for POSIX-compliant maintainer scripts when using /bin/sh as
an interpreter.  Has this requirement ever cost you (or anyone) so much
development time that this thread is anything other than absurdly
disproportionate?

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 18:55 -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 02:21:43PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> > If we can support low end systems with *minimal* effort, fine, but you
> > are asking lots of *extra* effort.
> 
> I think the two of you are spending far more effort *arguing* about this
> than it actually takes, in practice, to keep Debian scripts invoking /bin/sh
> compatible with dash.  That is, after all, the point you're currently
> arguing against, even though this result is already implied by policy's
> current mandate for POSIX-compliant maintainer scripts when using /bin/sh as
> an interpreter.  Has this requirement ever cost you (or anyone) so much
> development time that this thread is anything other than absurdly
> disproportionate?

Actually, I am not arguing against the desire to make scripts compatible
with dash.  That you think so indicates to me that I have been entirely
unsuccessful in getting people to believe me when I have (repeatedly)
tried to explain carefully what I *am* arguing.

I am arguing that the current policy requirement simply does not mean
what people think it means.

Thomas



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Re: Bash /dev/tcp and /dev/udp

[Greg Folkert]

On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 13:12 -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 11/24/06 11:54, Jon Dowland wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 08:25:27AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> >> On 11/24/06 06:06, Jon Dowland wrote:
> >>> I think that having the shell re-implement netcat to be
> >>> a violation of "do one thing and do it well".
> >> Hmmm.  A large, complicated shell like bash broke that
> >> stricture long ago, no?
> > 
> > Absolutely: but that doesn't give it a free licence to
> > continue doing so :)
> 
> Sure it does.  How long ago did Perl stop being just a Practical
> Extraction and Report Language?

Ron, please stop that urban legend. Perl is Perl not P.E.R.L as you say.

I have been corrected for saying that, by more than one Perl Monk, also
by Mr. Wall.

Perl is Perl. It has no meaning other than Perl.
-- 
greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The technology that is
Stronger, better, faster:  Linux


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Re: Question about "Depends: bash"

[Jari Aalto]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > I'm not sure I follow. I' puzzled why you do not seem benefit in:
> > 
> > - Making scripts sh-agnostict. That is making them portable
> > - Supporting low end systems with minimal of effort
> > - Improving the overall awaress of shells
> 
> I don't care about the "awareness" of shells, no.
> 
> If we can support low end systems with *minimal* effort, fine, but you
> are asking lots of *extra* effort.

To my knowledge, I haven't or then there is a mixup somewhere.

> I don't care about making anything sh-agnostic.  bash is just a
> language; dash is just a language.  We don't insist that our C programs
> be C-compiler-agnostic; we don't insist that lisp or scheme programs be
> dialect-agnostic; why should we insist this for shell programs?

I'm not the right person to explain this. I would rather compare this
to the C compiler warnings:

- I don't care. The code compiles. Right?

Or saomeone who takes another approach:

- Oh, I dind't know that there were warnings having never used -Wall
  --pedantic. Give me a week and I'll fix those.
 
> If a maintainer wants to make a script that works with dash and posh and
> busybox, they can do that too.  
>
> They can even have a debconf option that
> asks the user which #! line to use.

The point is to make things generic. Like C which can be made to
compile in multiple platforms.

> None of this requires this obsessive nattering about /bin/sh.

Obsessive? The problem is not big. I haven't encountered any breakege
by using /bin/dash instead of /bin/bash in a year. It proves that the
maintainer scripts are already in a good shape. There is no big
"converting work" needed anywhere.

What would be good is that The Policy should encourage this practise
(like many maintainers do see value in this as demonstrated in their
scripts) instead of the current wording which discourages it.

Of of the problmes in this path is the status of bash in Essential,
which implies all the rest. Fortunately many maintainers are
professionals and see things from wider sh-perspective.

Jari



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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Anthony DeRobertis]

Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:

> Somebody needs to explain to Jari the concept of a shared text segment.
>   

Bash:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ grep 'Private_Dirty' /proc/$$/smaps | perl -e '$t = 0; 
while (<>) { /(\d+) kB$/ or die "parse err: $_"; $t += $1 } print "tot: $t\n"'
tot: 2800


Dash:

$ grep 'Private_Dirty' /proc/$$/smaps | perl -e '$t = 0; while (<>) { /(\d+) 
kB$/ or die "parse err: $_"; $t += $1 } print "tot: $t\n"'
tot: 84


Indeed, checking /proc/pid/status, we find bash's VmData is a mere 16
times larger than dash's.

Something tells me that 2.8MB * 20 could indeed be a problem on a 64MB
system.


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Bug#400310: ITP: akfquiz -- programs for quiz-games, learning-exercises, psychotests

[Andreas K. Foerster]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: "Andreas K. Foerster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


* Package name: akfquiz
  Version : 4.4.0
  Upstream Author : Andreas K. Foerster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://akfquiz.nongnu.org/
* License : GPL
  Description : programs for quiz-games, learning-exercises, psychotests

 The package AKFQuiz lets you easily make your own quiz games, learning
 exercises or psychotests. These can be used with grquiz in a graphical
 environment or with scrquiz on the text-console. There is also a line
 oriented variant, linequiz, which can be used as a backend.
 .
 A CGI-variant, cgiquiz, can be installed on a Web server to offer
 exercises via Internet or a local network. There is also an exam-mode
 in cgiquiz to use it for serious exams.
 .
 Or you can use mkquiz, which generates an HTML-file for to use with
 JavaScript. Those can then be published using any deliberate web-space
 provider.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 3.1
  APT prefers testing
  APT policy: (500, 'testing')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Kernel: Linux 2.4.22
Locale: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (charmap=ISO-8859-15)


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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Jari Aalto]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 16:28 -0700, Bruce Sass wrote:
> > > > but it is Debian's job to be responsive to its users needs and
> > > > Debian has made a choice to strive for susv3 compatibility
> > >
> > > I don't think you understand what "compatibility" means in this
> > > context. It does not mean that you can substitute any component of
> > > the system with a different standards-compliant version and
> > > everything must continue to work.
> > 
> > So, what does "compatibility" mean in this context?
> 
> Debian has *achieved* susv3 compatibility.  There is nothing more to be
> done.
> 
> A compatible implementation is allowed to have special options "behind
> the scenes" which it uses to implement things.  Compatibility (actually,
> I believe the term is compliance) refers to the entire system, not its
> individual components.
> > 
> > > Our users needs do not, by and large, include embedded systems.
> > 
> > I am glad that "by and large" is not the standard, for that would make 
> > Debian somewhat less universal than it is.
> 
> *Yawn*. 
> 
> I don't care about making a distribution suitable for every possible
> purpose.  I see no shame in saying that we are suitable for some
> purposes and not others.

You don't have to care. There are people who do. Let them do the work.
That's how the Debian can come where it is now. It compiles in systems 
where none other distro does because people have cared to make porting
work.

Porting from bash to dash to towards generic sh-SusV compliance is
similar work. We could even talk about "standards-compliant" init
scripts

I'm sure you're not against work towards overall generalism. You
should not care if someone puts effort on it. Any work of this kind
should be highly encouraged and not discouraged.

Jari



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Re: Proposed new POSIX sh policy, version two

[Jari Aalto]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 23:55 +0200, Jari Aalto wrote:
> > > Instead of focusing and hammering again and again on /bin/sh, why not
> > > instead ask maintainers to do #!/bin/dash?
> > 
> > Because the correct is #!/bin/sh and not to be tied on particular shell.
> 
> I can't tell what you mean.  There is nothing wrong with using
> #!/bin/dash if that's what the maintainer wants to specify.

And if the system does not have dash installed? And if the scrpts work
fine with the /bin/sh of his choice?

Hard coding is always been bad. 
 
> > Bash is not there "nayway". It is posisble to substitute it for the
> > reasons explained (memory consumption), without any significant loss of
> > interactive functionality.
> 
> And around and around we go.  Dash itself say it is not suitable for
> interactive use, and, bash is an Essential part of Debian.
> >  
> > The point was making script sh-agnostic. dash is just an
> > implementation of sh. Someone may very well use busybox or /bin/posh.
> 
> Sure, if the maintainer thinks one of those is best, they could be used
> too.

And this is only possible if scripts use

/bin/sh

The  /bin/sh could be any valid shell that provided the standard set
of features. 

The installation system ("Essential") which sets /bin/sh to point to
/bin/bash in this respect has been a bad choice because people are not
aware of the bashinm they might be using as a result of it.

Jari


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