Re: What kernel stuff on CD1? Was Still no TeX in CD#1

[Anthony Towns]

On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 10:54:47AM +1200, Philip Charles wrote:
> On Thu, 30 May 2002, Santiago Vila wrote:
> > What's wrong with basic-desktop being x-window-system-core plus a WM
> > plus xterm? As I said, x-window-system contains things which are far
> > away from being "basic". If we force it to be on CD #1, lots of very
> > popular packages will end up being in CD #2.
> The freeze?

Tweaking the contents of the tasks are okay, it's only redoing the task
mechanism (to have "core" packages for a task and "auxiliary" packages,
eg) that's not an option for woody at this point.

Cheers,
aj

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Re: CD release announcement

[Philip Hands]

On Fri, 2002-05-31 at 04:00, Mattias Wadenstein wrote:

> Where will the jigdo files turn up? open is a bit closer, but I get good
> rates to raff too. Just wondering if I should have that cron job that
> mirrors jigdo-area point at cdimage or open.

I'll be building the images on open, but the plan is to point the public
at raff, and make sure that's mirrored ASAP after the images are on
open.

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
Say no to software patents!  http://petition.eurolinux.org/

|)|  Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/
|-|  HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/
|(|  10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London  E18 1NE  ENGLAND



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Re: What kernel stuff on CD1? Was Still no TeX in CD#1

[Santiago Vila]

On Fri, 31 May 2002, Anthony Towns wrote:

> On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 10:54:47AM +1200, Philip Charles wrote:
> > On Thu, 30 May 2002, Santiago Vila wrote:
> > > What's wrong with basic-desktop being x-window-system-core plus a WM
> > > plus xterm? As I said, x-window-system contains things which are far
> > > away from being "basic". If we force it to be on CD #1, lots of very
> > > popular packages will end up being in CD #2.
> > The freeze?
>
> Tweaking the contents of the tasks are okay, it's only redoing the task
> mechanism (to have "core" packages for a task and "auxiliary" packages,
> eg) that's not an option for woody at this point.

Modifying the contents of the basic-desktop task is exactly what we need here.
Nothing more. Joey?


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About harware detection and configuration tools in 1st CD

[Mantas K.]

Hello,

I still think, that including some packages on 1st CD (which use just little 
space) would improve much debian woody installation from CDs.
I got no answer to my suggestions about improving 1st debian CD and desktop 
task from official maintainer :(

Previously Philip Hands wrote:
> OK, the latest cut is much better:
>   http://www.hands.com/~phil/woody-cd/pre6-pre8-package.diff.txt
> Note' this is the diff against the "With X, but missing TeX" pre6, so
> the fact that there is no mention of things like xdm means they're still
> on CD#1

I've checked this file and also file
http://cdimage.debian.org/jigdo-area/3.0-pre8/jigdo/i386/woody-i386-1_NONUS.jigdo

and found that some packages, that should be in 1st CD like apt-fronted, 
hardware autodetection package and network configuration (aptitude - ~1MB, 
discover - ~150kb, etherconf - ~20kb) are not in 1st CD.

How can simple user use debian if there are no packages, that configures 
harware and network and no usable package managment tools (dselect and 
command line is too hard for beginers) ?

All distributions include hardware autodetection and configuration packages 
in 1st CD, why debian should be less user-friendly, than others ?
Installation of debian woody already is not so simle, but now it is even 
more difficult, because there are no hardware autodetection package, no 
network configuration and no usefull package managment program in 1st CD :(

I found that many not so usefull packages are included in 1st CD, like:
+Debian:pool/main/p/penguineyes/penguineyes-gnome_0.10-22_i386.deb (244 kb)
+Debian:pool/main/p/penguineyes/penguineyes_0.10-22_i386.deb (238 kb)

Do you think that users like to see penguineyes instead of working operating 
system ?

Santiago Vila <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The current CDs are made basically using the data produced by the
> popularity-contest package. Debian is for everybody, not just for
> beginners. If package A is more popular than package B, then A is more
> likely to be included in CD#1, even if it's less user-friendly than B.
> 
> In my opinion this principle is basically right and should not be changed.

Data, produced by popularity-contest is not reliable, because only few 
percent of debian users uses popularity-contest package.
I know no simple users, that uses popularity-contest package and only few 
avanced users. And data, produced by popularity-contest are only about 
systems, connected to internet, but CD is most usefull to users, that have 
no internet connection.
We need better system, to hear not only advanced users oppinion but other 
users too.
Most simple users don't like debian, because they think, that there are not 
user-friendly configuration tools (they simply download 1 CD, try to install 
and find that they are rigth). But if we include some tools (packages which 
I mentioned before and some graphical configuration tools, like stormpkg 
(~100 kb), user-friendly graphical configuration tools, developed by 
Progeny: python-configlet (35kb), configlet-frontends (20kb), timezoneconf 
(30kb), localeconf (20kb) and maybe some more hardware detection packages: 
kudzu, sndconfig) people would see that debian is not so difficult to use.
(see for example Progeny Debian - is very user-friendly for all - beginners 
and advanced users)

Waiting for changes ;),
Mantas Kriauciunas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: woody-src-?.jigdo template url incorrect,

[Richard Atterer]

On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 09:08:30AM +1000, Glenn McGrath wrote:
> Also, woody-src-6 failed to verify through jigdo-lite, but its
> md5sum match the value in the MD5SUM file

There is a problem with the md5sum code in jigdo 0.6.6 and less, but
so far I thought that it only occurred on big-endian architectures.
Were you using a big-endian machine to download?

Cheers,

  Richard

-- 
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  | \/¯|  http://atterer.net  |  Universität München, Germany  |  0x888354F7
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questions about other languages install docs in CD

[Jose Ramon Alvarez Sanchez]

Hi, 
I am testing the pre-release versions of Debian 3.0 i386 CD-1
(pre9 download through jigdo OK). 

There is a [CD]/install/doc/  directory with the install instructions
(in english) and some directories for other languages (ca, cs, da, es,
fr, it, pt),  but i miss the "index.??.html" inside those subdirectories
(there is "index.en.html" instead, but not the translation). 

I don't know if this was on purpose, a mistake, a lack of translations
or just a transitory problem due to pre-release state. 

Also it would be nice to have a link named "index.hml" inside those
directories pointing for their corresponding "index.??.html".

The same problem occurs inside doc directories for disks
[CD]/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/current/doc/*
(by the way, are the previous docs the same as these ones? 
maybe links...).

Also i miss the symbolic links from [CD]/doc/install/ to the
directories in other languages at   [CD]/install/doc  as they
are for the english versions.

By the way, is it planned to have README.??.html (and links like
LEEME.es.html, LISEZMOI.fr.html, etc.) files for other languages 
in the root directory?

In any case, the CDs and jigdo are a great work.

Greetings,
Jose R.

P.S.: I am coordinating the effort in my university to provide
  around 2 copies of CD-1 for our computer science students
  (more future Debian developers ;-).
  But due to the schedule problems it would be probably a
  pre-release version in the begining of next week.
  
-- 
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Re: About harware detection and configuration tools in 1st CD

[Santiago Vila]

Mantas K. wrote:
> data produced by popularity-contest are only about systems connected
> to internet [...]

AFAIK, popularity-contest uses email to send the data. You don't need
a permanent internet connection, a dial-up should work as well.

Data from popularity-contest may not be as realiable as we would like,
but we don't have any data *more* reliable than that, either.


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Re: About harware detection and configuration tools in 1st CD

[Santiago Vila]

Mantas K. wrote:
> Most simple users don't like debian, because they think, that there are not
> user-friendly configuration tools (they simply download 1 CD, try to install
> and find that they are rigth).

Well, if they really think Debian is just CD #1, I would much prefer
that they continue using Red-Hat or whatever...


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Re: woody-src-?.jigdo template url incorrect,

[Glenn McGrath]

On Fri, 31 May 2002 14:15:09 +0200
"Richard Atterer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 09:08:30AM +1000, Glenn McGrath wrote:
> > Also, woody-src-6 failed to verify through jigdo-lite, but its
> > md5sum match the value in the MD5SUM file
> 
> There is a problem with the md5sum code in jigdo 0.6.6 and less, but
> so far I thought that it only occurred on big-endian architectures.
> Were you using a big-endian machine to download?
> 
> Cheers,
> 

I am using jigdo v0.6.5 on a k6-2 500.

The jigdo verification failed twice (out of two tries) on that CD, all
other -pre8 source iso's verified, as did all -pre9 source iso's.


Glenn


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Re: About harware detection and configuration tools in 1st CD

[Chris Lawrence]

On May 31, Santiago Vila wrote:
> Mantas K. wrote:
> > Most simple users don't like debian, because they think, that there are not
> > user-friendly configuration tools (they simply download 1 CD, try to install
> > and find that they are rigth).
> 
> Well, if they really think Debian is just CD #1, I would much prefer
> that they continue using Red-Hat or whatever...

Well, IMHO if a user needs more than CD #1 then they're doing
something more sophisticated that what Red Hat would include anyway.
In reality, I'll keel over and die if I meet anyone who *needs* more
than CDs 1 and 2 of woody; if they need anything else, it's one or two
"weird" packages that they're better off spending 10 minutes
downloading (on *dialup*) than spending $$ to buy all 6+ CDs.

Frankly we already have too many people who think that "I need all
6/7/8 CDs"; it's becoming a nightmare for distributors and mirrors
alike, especially since virtually nobody needs what's on 3+ anyway.


Chris
-- 
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Failure creating image

[W. van den Akker]

Hi,
 
I have downloaded the .jigdo and .template files 
from cdimage.debian.org.
It were files from the 3.0-pre9 woody 
directory.
Next step was creating the images (I use jigdo 
version 0.6.6, but 0.6.5 also
does it).
 
I used jigdo-file -j woody-i386-1.jigdo 
make-image (or mi).
 
The program immediately exits with:
 
Found 0 of the 1324 files required by the 
templateWill not create image or temporary file - try again with different 
input files
What's going wrong?
 
TIA
 
Willem.
 

Re: First try on Hurd-H4-CD1 jigdo files

[Patrick Strasser]

Philip Charles wrote:

> On Fri, 31 May 2002, Patrick Strasser wrote:
> 
> Cut
> 
>>To sum up, first we need a list of files that can be found on mirrors
>>with their corresponding location, what I'm trying to do ATM. And second
>>the files itself for the checksums, which we get from the mounted image.
>>I now work with a local copy of alpha, just to be able to separate the
>>server locations in the jigdo file, but this should not be needed with a
>>file listing from alpha and some file list manipulation.
>>In my theory this would result in the perfect hurd-H4-CD1 jigdo files.
>>(But as a wise man said: I practice the difference between theory and
>>practice is mach bigger than in theory ;-)
>>
> 
> I realy don't like this complexity.  I can add quite a few more
> complications, e.g. unique Hurd boot-floppies which only exist on the
> master CD images.  These would always have to be fetched from somewhere.

Perhaps my explanation was a bit complicated. Let me try to split it in two.
First:
I think for your problem of getting the image as cheap as possible 
around the globe, the solution is already done: You have a new image 
with some special files and and files available around the time of 
shipping. Cut out the fetchable files and ship just the rest. This is 
was jigdo does. You just have to have the packages in a filsystem 
hierachy like on thew mirrors. I gues, tha's what you have annyway.

Usually you need to have a lokal Debain mirror. But creating the jigdo 
files can also be done by specifying a list of files which can be found 
   on a mirror and having just these files local. That's what I want to do.

Actually, the processing of the file list can be done by a quite simple 
script, so creation of jigdo files is completetly automatic.

The second:
If someone would like to download the image via jigdo, you have to 
assure he/she gets all the cut out files. If this files were deleted on 
the mirrors, the ige becomes useless, even disadvantageous, as you have 
to try to fetch the files, to finaly find out som can't be found.
Two ways to solve the problem:
a) A fallback directory for old files. The files get the checksums as 
names. Jigdo can handle this, so this needs nearly no afford at creator 
and user side. You just need a script for storing your old files in the 
fallback directory. And such a script already exists.
b) We can guarantee the images to work until a certain expiration date. 
the files must be on the mirrors until this date, or we don't cut out 
files which are known to change until expiration date. I don't know if 
this is doable.

ATM I'd need the file listings to test my theories. Then we will see 
what can be done with jigdo.

Patrick

-- 
Engineers motto: cheap, good, fast: choose any two
Patrick Strasser 
Student of Telematik, Techn. University Graz, Austria


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Re: Failure creating image

[Greg C. Madden]

On Fri, 2002-05-31 at 09:13, W. van den Akker wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have downloaded the .jigdo and .template files from cdimage.debian.org.
> It were files from the 3.0-pre9 woody directory.
> Next step was creating the images (I use jigdo version 0.6.6, but 0.6.5 also
> does it).
> 
> I used jigdo-file -j woody-i386-1.jigdo make-image (or mi).
> 
> The program immediately exits with:
> 
> Found 0 of the 1324 files required by the template
> Will not create image or temporary file - try again with different input files
> 
> What's going wrong?
> 
> TIA
> 
> Willem.
> 

I haven't used the 'jigdo-file' method,afaik it is not the program to
use to download packages & build a Woody iso. I use the 'jigdo-lite'
command and follow the prompts. works well here.
-- 
Greg C. Madden
Debian GNU/Linux 3.0




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Re: Failure creating image

[W. van den Akker]

Greg,

I've tried it also with jigdo-lite. After the prompts I get the same
message. I think jigdo-file is called from jigdo-lite.

gr,

Willem
- Original Message -
From: "Greg C. Madden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: Failure creating image


On Fri, 2002-05-31 at 09:13, W. van den Akker wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have downloaded the .jigdo and .template files from cdimage.debian.org.
> It were files from the 3.0-pre9 woody directory.
> Next step was creating the images (I use jigdo version 0.6.6, but 0.6.5
also
> does it).
>
> I used jigdo-file -j woody-i386-1.jigdo make-image (or mi).
>
> The program immediately exits with:
>
> Found 0 of the 1324 files required by the template
> Will not create image or temporary file - try again with different input
files
>
> What's going wrong?
>
> TIA
>
> Willem.
>

I haven't used the 'jigdo-file' method,afaik it is not the program to
use to download packages & build a Woody iso. I use the 'jigdo-lite'
command and follow the prompts. works well here.
--
Greg C. Madden
Debian GNU/Linux 3.0



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Woody Mini-cd results

[D & E Radel]

Hi to Chris Lawrence and everyone at 
Debian!
 
A HUGE thank you for compiling such a cool cd. 
Recently due to a disaster I had to re-install my 
entire system and didn't want to use my aged Potato 
CD's or download 8 full beta cds of Woody.
 
Your 185MB CD was a life-saver! It's a 
keeper!
 
Installed very easily, and far less confusing than 
the potato installer. More stuff auto-magically
detected. The packages included were enough for my 
to get my system installed, then install
my win-modem drivers and download the rest of the 
packages I needed (ie. X and KDE).
 
The install process had NO problems 
for me. Smooth sailing all the way! Wonderful!!
 
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank 
you, thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
 
May God richly bless you all !   
:-)
Dietrich Radel.

Re: Woody Mini-cd results

[jason andrade]

On Sat, 1 Jun 2002, D & E Radel wrote:

> A HUGE thank you for compiling such a cool cd. Recently due to a disaster I had to 
>re-install my 
> entire system and didn't want to use my aged Potato CD's or download 8 full beta cds 
>of Woody.

it's a bummer there's a user perception around that you need to download 8 cds to 
install
debian..

-jason


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