Re: Complete draft of the March 16th and 30th meetings minutes

[Frans Pop]

On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote:
> In general followup to this and mostly because I think we don't need a
> flamewar here, I've amended the meeting report to:
>
> ==
> A proposal was made to upload the installation guide more often, which
> Otavio volunteered for. However, post-meeting, Frans Pop indicated
> that he's not comfortable with that approach that doesn't fit his work

s/that doesn't/as it doesn't/
s/his/the current/

> method. As Frans is doing a great job maintaining the installation
> guide, his way to organize the work should be preferred and we drop

s/his/the current/

> the initial idea of very frequent uploads of the IG.

This is not about "preferring my way", but about properly discussing 
changes with the current de facto maintainer and official RM instead of 
blundering blindly about and making random changes without any proven 
benefit and without having any idea of their impact.

> ==
>
> Frans, may I suggest that, time and agenda permitting, you attend the
> D-I team meetings, even silently, so that you can react to such
> proposals when they are done during the meetings. That would probably
> save us such grumpy exchange (or at least keep it to IRC...).

Why???

IMO when someone who is currently doing the vast majority work on 
something is not present during a meeting it is up to the people who 
_are_ present and especially the person who wants to make changes to 
contact that someone. Not the other way around.

In a perfect world the meeting log would have shown something like:
  otavio: OK. Frans is not here, so if there are no objections to that
  idea now I'll discuss the idea with him
or:
  : Shouldn't this be discussed with Frans? After all, he is
  the current RM for the manual and has been doing most of the work on
  it for the past 5 years.

Attending meetings, or even reading their logs, is not required nor should 
it be (and neither is presence on IRC). (And I think that ATM it's a lot 
better for those meetings if I don't attend them.)

There is quite a bit more to doing a release for the manual than just 
building and uploading it (after all, why should the manual be any 
different from the rest of D-I?).


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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[Matthew Johnson]

On Mon Apr 06 08:55, Frans Pop wrote:
> > This is a heads up mail for the D-I team.
> 
> I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be 
> discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I 
> suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions 
> for lilo.
> There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at 
> least for them, very good reasons.

Yes, please do discuss it here. I am one of those users, grub didn't
work on one of my machines for some reason.

Anyway, isn't grub1 equally unmaintained upstream? I thought they were
only working on grub2 (which isn't ready for use yet, or is it?)

> > Don't we have some install paths that still depend on LILO?
> 
> Yes: /boot on LVM is the main one.
 
We _certainly_ shouldn't throw it out if there are _known_ situations
for which it's required.

By all means print large warnings or only make it available in expert
mode, or whatever, but please don't break existing functionality.

Matt
-- 
Matthew Johnson


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Bug#511180: partman fails to see existing ext3 fs on existing partitioned raid 1 array

[Leif W]

Ping.

RAID 1 array exists.
RAID 1 array is partitionable.
RAID 1 array has had an ext3 fs on it >2 years.

Partman sees RAID 1 array.
Partman sees RAID 1 array partition.
Partman does not see any filesystem.

Debian not installable unless I delete data?

The only solution is to erase half the array, install Debian, then copy 
the data and recreate the array?


During this time, I am vulnerable to data loss.  :(

Leif






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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[Goswin von Brederlow]

Matthew Johnson  writes:

> On Mon Apr 06 08:55, Frans Pop wrote:
>> > This is a heads up mail for the D-I team.
>> 
>> I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be 
>> discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I 
>> suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions 
>> for lilo.
>> There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at 
>> least for them, very good reasons.
>
> Yes, please do discuss it here. I am one of those users, grub didn't
> work on one of my machines for some reason.
>
> Anyway, isn't grub1 equally unmaintained upstream? I thought they were
> only working on grub2 (which isn't ready for use yet, or is it?)

So lets get grub2 working everywhere. :) A worthy goal.

>> > Don't we have some install paths that still depend on LILO?
>> 
>> Yes: /boot on LVM is the main one.
>  
> We _certainly_ shouldn't throw it out if there are _known_ situations
> for which it's required.

We just shouldn't have /boot on lvm. At least there should be one
place outside lvm to store /etc/lvm/archive and /etc/lvm/backup so
that in the case lvm breaks (gets broken by the user) one can repair
it. Linking them to /boot/lvm/archive and /boot/lvm/backup with /boot
outside lvm seem like a good idea.

The problem with /boot on lvm is that moving or resizing it can break
it. So I always found it a good partition to keep outside lvm.

> By all means print large warnings or only make it available in expert
> mode, or whatever, but please don't break existing functionality.
>
> Matt
> -- 
> Matthew Johnson

MfG
Goswin


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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[Matthew Johnson]

On Mon Apr 06 11:07, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> 
> So lets get grub2 working everywhere. :) A worthy goal.
> 
Sure, but don't remove lilo until we're happy that grub2 does work
everywhere.

Matt

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Re: Complete draft of the March 16th and 30th meetings minutes

[Otavio Salvador]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Frans Pop  writes:


[...]

> This is not about "preferring my way", but about properly discussing 
> changes with the current de facto maintainer and official RM instead of 
> blundering blindly about and making random changes without any proven 
> benefit and without having any idea of their impact.

Hey, let's make one thing clear OK; You're de facto the maintainer and
the RM of the installer manual and I fully agree with that but please
realise that the manual is part of Debian Installer project.

>> ==
>>
>> Frans, may I suggest that, time and agenda permitting, you attend the
>> D-I team meetings, even silently, so that you can react to such
>> proposals when they are done during the meetings. That would probably
>> save us such grumpy exchange (or at least keep it to IRC...).
>
> Why???
>
> IMO when someone who is currently doing the vast majority work on 
> something is not present during a meeting it is up to the people who 
> _are_ present and especially the person who wants to make changes to 
> contact that someone. Not the other way around.
>
> In a perfect world the meeting log would have shown something like:
>   otavio: OK. Frans is not here, so if there are no objections to that
>   idea now I'll discuss the idea with him
> or:
>   : Shouldn't this be discussed with Frans? After all, he is
>   the current RM for the manual and has been doing most of the work on
>   it for the past 5 years.

Even it not being cited on the meeting, I wasn't going to blindly upload
it. I usually coordiante those things with the responsable people, as I
do for other parts of d-i too (e.g: mklibs, cdebconf and like).

> Attending meetings, or even reading their logs, is not required nor should 
> it be (and neither is presence on IRC). (And I think that ATM it's a lot 
> better for those meetings if I don't attend them.)

I disagree on that.

> There is quite a bit more to doing a release for the manual than just 
> building and uploading it (after all, why should the manual be any 
> different from the rest of D-I?).

That is really the point.

Being the D-I RM, I think I can consider changing something if I believe
it can benefit the project as a whole, right?

- -- 
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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[Otavio Salvador]

Frans Pop  writes:

> On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote:

[...]

>> > I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will
>> > be gone by June.
>
> Has the package already been offered for adoption? Preferably with an 
> overview of its current (upstream) status and main issues. I'd say that 
> if there's anybody willing to (actively) maintain it, it should not be 
> removed.

Fully agree; it should be properly offered for adoption.

>> This is a heads up mail for the D-I team.
>
> I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be 
> discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I 
> suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions 
> for lilo.
> There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at 
> least for them, very good reasons.
>
> Anyone remember the fairly big upset when lilo was removed from testing 
> around D-I Lenny Beta2?

I also share the feeling that a lot of people still uses LILO; if
possible I do belive it should be kept.


[...]

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-
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 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855
 Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br
-
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Re: Complete draft of the March 16th and 30th meetings minutes

[Frans Pop]

On Monday 06 April 2009, Otavio Salvador wrote:
> Hey, let's make one thing clear OK; You're de facto the maintainer and
> the RM of the installer manual and I fully agree with that but please
> realise that the manual is part of Debian Installer project.

Sure, but that does not change anything.

> > Attending meetings, or even reading their logs, is not required nor
> > should it be (and neither is presence on IRC). (And I think that ATM
> > it's a lot better for those meetings if I don't attend them.)
>
> I disagree on that.

On what exactly?

I'm willing to read the *minutes* of meetings, and as you've seen I _have_ 
done exactly that as I have responded to them. But I don't think you can 
realistically expect everybody involved with D-I (either closely or 
remotely) to attend the meetings or to read through the raw logs.

> > There is quite a bit more to doing a release for the manual than just
> > building and uploading it (after all, why should the manual be any
> > different from the rest of D-I?).
>
> That is really the point.

What is the point? I think you've not read my sentence correctly. The bit 
between brackets means "why should the manual be any less complex than 
the installer itself"; it does *not* mean "the manual is no different 
than the installer and does not require any special handling".

> Being the D-I RM, I think I can consider changing something if I
> believe it can benefit the project as a whole, right?

No, when it comes to the manual you really cannot, especially not as long 
as you have absolutely no clue what's involved. And certainly not unless 
you're willing to accept *total* responsibility for the installation 
guide from that point forward.
You are very welcome to *suggest* changes, but you cannot just go ahead 
and *make* them. And the reason is very simple: because you just do not 
know what's involved, you would be quite likely to break something. And 
possibly something that could be really quite hard to correct [1].

[1] No, I'm not just talking here. There really is at least one aspect of 
doing uploads that is totally non-obvious, but something that you really 
*must* be aware of. And no, I'm not going to explain what it is in this 
thread.


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Re: Complete draft of the March 16th and 30th meetings minutes

[Holger Levsen]

Hi Frans,

On Montag, 6. April 2009, Frans Pop wrote:
> [1] No, I'm not just talking here. There really is at least one aspect of
> doing uploads that is totally non-obvious, but something that you really
> *must* be aware of. And no, I'm not going to explain what it is in this
> thread.

that's hillarious.

either educate people or allow them to make mistakes themselves, so they can 
learn.


regards,
Holger


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Re: Complete draft of the March 16th and 30th meetings minutes

[Durk Strooisma]

> On Montag, 6. April 2009, Frans Pop wrote:
>> [1] No, I'm not just talking here. There really is at least one aspect
>> of
>> doing uploads that is totally non-obvious, but something that you really
>> *must* be aware of. And no, I'm not going to explain what it is in this
>> thread.
>
> that's hillarious.
>
> either educate people or allow them to make mistakes themselves, so they
> can
> learn.

Come on, he just says "not in THIS thread".


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Re: Complete draft of the March 16th and 30th meetings minutes

[Frans Pop]

On Monday 06 April 2009, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Montag, 6. April 2009, Frans Pop wrote:
> > [1] No, I'm not just talking here. There really is at least one
> > aspect of doing uploads that is totally non-obvious, but something
> > that you really *must* be aware of. And no, I'm not going to explain
> > what it is in this thread.
>
> that's hillarious.

No, actually it's quite tragic.

> either educate people

Sorry, no can do.

Properly setting down everything involved in RM for the installation guide 
would require hours of work. I see no reason to make that effort unless 
someone is actually interested in and willing to commit to helping out 
with the work on the installation guide.

The normal first step in such a process is for such a person to become 
actually involved in the package, which would also mean he/she'd gain 
most of the needed knowledge as a side effect of working on the package. 
So far I have seen absolutely zero involvement (other than already 
mentioned earlier in the thread) from anybody on the team.

> or allow them to make mistakes themselves, so they can learn.

Why exactly should they need to make mistakes? The installation-guide 
package is being properly maintained. Sure, there's a lot that can be 
improved, but that is _content_, and that's not what's being discussed 
here.

Releasing D-I in no way depends on uploads of the installation-guide. 
Sure, it's nice if the timing is coordinated, especially when you get to 
the stage of RC releases, but other than that there is zero dependency.


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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[Giacomo A. Catenazzi]

Frans Pop wrote:

On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote:

Quoting William Pitcock (neno...@dereferenced.org):

lilo is due for removal anyway due to being unmaintained upstream and
the widespread availability of alternatives.


I think that last part is debatable.


I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will
be gone by June.


Has the package already been offered for adoption? Preferably with an 
overview of its current (upstream) status and main issues. I'd say that 
if there's anybody willing to (actively) maintain it, it should not be 
removed.



This is a heads up mail for the D-I team.


I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be 
discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I 
suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions 
for lilo.
There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at 
least for them, very good reasons.


I totally agree.
But I think that lilo package description must be changed, warning new
users that lilo have several limits (thus not all kernel within debian
are bootable with lilo).

Maybe we could also require grub{,2} when installing lilo (chained
as other in lilo, for emergency, new debian kernel policies, etc),
but I don't know if it is feasible (e.g. when lilo is not in MBR).

ciao
cate


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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[William Pitcock]

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 06:42 +0200, Christian Perrier wrote:
> Quoting William Pitcock (neno...@dereferenced.org):
> > lilo is due for removal anyway due to being unmaintained upstream and
> > the widespread availability of alternatives.
> > 
> > I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will be
> > gone by June.
> 
> 
> This is a heads up mail for the D-I team.
> 
> Don't we have some install paths that still depend on LILO?

We do, in lilo-installer. Such as booting directly from LVM. But with
increasing maturity of grub2, this does not seem necessary anymore.

> 
> Anyway, even if we don't, I think we should track that lilo removal
> and coordinate with William, in order to stop providing
> lilo-installer.

I agree.

> 
> And, I think this should be mentioned as a release goal (dropping
> lilo). Either high priority if we have install paths depending on
> lilo, or normal priority otherwise.

I agree here too. I think these install paths could be replaced by
ext2linux as well, if that is what is needed to be done.

William


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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[William Pitcock]

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 10:44 -0300, Otavio Salvador wrote:
> Frans Pop  writes:
> 
> > On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> >> > I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will
> >> > be gone by June.
> >
> > Has the package already been offered for adoption? Preferably with an 
> > overview of its current (upstream) status and main issues. I'd say that 
> > if there's anybody willing to (actively) maintain it, it should not be 
> > removed.
> 
> Fully agree; it should be properly offered for adoption.
> 
> >> This is a heads up mail for the D-I team.
> >
> > I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be 
> > discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I 
> > suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions 
> > for lilo.
> > There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at 
> > least for them, very good reasons.
> >
> > Anyone remember the fairly big upset when lilo was removed from testing 
> > around D-I Lenny Beta2?
> 
> I also share the feeling that a lot of people still uses LILO; if
> possible I do belive it should be kept.

The only way it is feasible to do so is to drop all of the Debian
patches. Without this, upstream is not cooperative with us.

However, I think ext2linux is a feasible upgrade path and that lilo will
become unnecessary by the release of squeeze.

William



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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[Giacomo A. Catenazzi]

William Pitcock wrote:

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 17:26 +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:

Frans Pop wrote:

On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote:

Quoting William Pitcock (neno...@dereferenced.org):

lilo is due for removal anyway due to being unmaintained upstream and
the widespread availability of alternatives.

I think that last part is debatable.


I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will
be gone by June.
Has the package already been offered for adoption? Preferably with an 
overview of its current (upstream) status and main issues. I'd say that 
if there's anybody willing to (actively) maintain it, it should not be 
removed.



This is a heads up mail for the D-I team.
I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be 
discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I 
suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions 
for lilo.
There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at 
least for them, very good reasons.

I totally agree.
But I think that lilo package description must be changed, warning new
users that lilo have several limits (thus not all kernel within debian
are bootable with lilo).

Maybe we could also require grub{,2} when installing lilo (chained
as other in lilo, for emergency, new debian kernel policies, etc),
but I don't know if it is feasible (e.g. when lilo is not in MBR).


chainloader will work with lilo, but lilo is only kept around for the
people who are crazy and booting off LVMs as it is.


Yes, but it works if you have an additional partition (for boot
record). I don't know if they could live in the same partition
(with some magic).

But IIRC lilo fails also in other cases: some xen immages, on very big
images (which can be reached in some initram).


Booting off LVMs is supported directly by grub2 and ext2linux could
probably be modified to support it in a much better way than lilo does
it, so this is not really a compelling argument for keeping it.


What is ext2linux? packages.d.o and google doesn't give me relevant
informations.

ciao
cate




William




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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[William Pitcock]

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 17:26 +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
> Frans Pop wrote:
> > On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote:
> >> Quoting William Pitcock (neno...@dereferenced.org):
> >>> lilo is due for removal anyway due to being unmaintained upstream and
> >>> the widespread availability of alternatives.
> > 
> > I think that last part is debatable.
> > 
> >>> I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will
> >>> be gone by June.
> > 
> > Has the package already been offered for adoption? Preferably with an 
> > overview of its current (upstream) status and main issues. I'd say that 
> > if there's anybody willing to (actively) maintain it, it should not be 
> > removed.
> > 
> >> This is a heads up mail for the D-I team.
> > 
> > I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be 
> > discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I 
> > suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions 
> > for lilo.
> > There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at 
> > least for them, very good reasons.
> 
> I totally agree.
> But I think that lilo package description must be changed, warning new
> users that lilo have several limits (thus not all kernel within debian
> are bootable with lilo).
> 
> Maybe we could also require grub{,2} when installing lilo (chained
> as other in lilo, for emergency, new debian kernel policies, etc),
> but I don't know if it is feasible (e.g. when lilo is not in MBR).

chainloader will work with lilo, but lilo is only kept around for the
people who are crazy and booting off LVMs as it is.

Booting off LVMs is supported directly by grub2 and ext2linux could
probably be modified to support it in a much better way than lilo does
it, so this is not really a compelling argument for keeping it.

William


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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[Steve Langasek]

On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 10:13:32AM -0500, William Pitcock wrote:
> > And, I think this should be mentioned as a release goal (dropping
> > lilo). Either high priority if we have install paths depending on
> > lilo, or normal priority otherwise.

> I agree here too. I think these install paths could be replaced by
> ext2linux as well, if that is what is needed to be done.

And why in the world is it useful to transition these use cases to ext2linux
when we already have a lilo package that suits these needs perfectly well?
That sounds like pointless churn to me.  If we're not able to migrate these
users to grub (1 or 2), we ought not mess with it.

-- 
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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[William Pitcock]

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 17:40 +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
> William Pitcock wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 17:26 +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
> >> Frans Pop wrote:
> >>> On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote:
>  Quoting William Pitcock (neno...@dereferenced.org):
> > lilo is due for removal anyway due to being unmaintained upstream and
> > the widespread availability of alternatives.
> >>> I think that last part is debatable.
> >>>
> > I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will
> > be gone by June.
> >>> Has the package already been offered for adoption? Preferably with an 
> >>> overview of its current (upstream) status and main issues. I'd say that 
> >>> if there's anybody willing to (actively) maintain it, it should not be 
> >>> removed.
> >>>
>  This is a heads up mail for the D-I team.
> >>> I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be 
> >>> discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I 
> >>> suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions 
> >>> for lilo.
> >>> There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at 
> >>> least for them, very good reasons.
> >> I totally agree.
> >> But I think that lilo package description must be changed, warning new
> >> users that lilo have several limits (thus not all kernel within debian
> >> are bootable with lilo).
> >>
> >> Maybe we could also require grub{,2} when installing lilo (chained
> >> as other in lilo, for emergency, new debian kernel policies, etc),
> >> but I don't know if it is feasible (e.g. when lilo is not in MBR).
> > 
> > chainloader will work with lilo, but lilo is only kept around for the
> > people who are crazy and booting off LVMs as it is.
> 
> Yes, but it works if you have an additional partition (for boot
> record). I don't know if they could live in the same partition
> (with some magic).
> 
> But IIRC lilo fails also in other cases: some xen immages, on very big
> images (which can be reached in some initram).
> 
> > Booting off LVMs is supported directly by grub2 and ext2linux could
> > probably be modified to support it in a much better way than lilo does
> > it, so this is not really a compelling argument for keeping it.
> 
> What is ext2linux? packages.d.o and google doesn't give me relevant
> informations.

Oops. It is extlinux. It's syslinux except it boots off a hard-disk
instead of a floppy or CD. Quite similar to lilo in featureset.

William


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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[William Pitcock]

On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 08:53 -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 10:13:32AM -0500, William Pitcock wrote:
> > > And, I think this should be mentioned as a release goal (dropping
> > > lilo). Either high priority if we have install paths depending on
> > > lilo, or normal priority otherwise.
> 
> > I agree here too. I think these install paths could be replaced by
> > ext2linux as well, if that is what is needed to be done.
> 
> And why in the world is it useful to transition these use cases to ext2linux
> when we already have a lilo package that suits these needs perfectly well?

Because it does not.

> That sounds like pointless churn to me.  If we're not able to migrate these
> users to grub (1 or 2), we ought not mess with it.

We can migrate them to grub2 in my opinion, extlinux is just another
option worth considering for lilo diehards.

I migrated my lilo boxes to grub2 a couple of weeks ago, and it seems to
behave as expected.

William


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Processing of debian-installer_20070308etch4_ia64.changes

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debian-installer_20070308etch4_ia64.changes uploaded successfully to localhost
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  debian-installer-images_20070308etch4_ia64.tar.gz

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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Frans Pop (elen...@planet.nl):

> I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be 

From lilo package BTS which I was tracking for l10n purposes. So I
just happened to notice William's answer to a bug report and thought
it would be good for this to be discussed in public.

Clearly, I didn't choose the right place to discuss and the topic has
wider implications than just D-I, as the followups show. Good thing
that you made the discussion wider.

> > Don't we have some install paths that still depend on LILO?
> 
> Yes: /boot on LVM is the main one.
> 
> > Anyway, even if we don't, I think we should track that lilo removal
> > and coordinate with William, in order to stop providing
> > lilo-installer.
> >
> > And, I think this should be mentioned as a release goal (dropping
> > lilo). Either high priority if we have install paths depending on
> > lilo, or normal priority otherwise.
> 
> D-I release goal or Debian release goal [1]?

Clearly Debian release "goal".

> IMO the latter could well be justified as there will also need to be some 
> kind of upgrade strategy for existing users that does not make 
> uncontrolled changes on their hard disk or loses them the ability to boot 
> alternative OSes on dual (or multi) boot systems.

Which might be very tricky

But, as William mentioned in his original mail, upstream activity
seems to be low so we need to figure out if we want to keep yet
another unmaintained software in Debian. What later puzzled me if the
mention in non collaboratve upstream *if we don't drop Debian
patches*.

That's not exactly inactive upstream so it would be good to clarify
the situation of lilo upstream.



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debian-installer_20070308etch4_ia64.changes ACCEPTED

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Mapping oldstable to oldstable-proposed-updates.

Accepted:
debian-installer-images_20070308etch4_ia64.tar.gz byhand
debian-installer_20070308etch4_ia64.deb
  to pool/main/d/debian-installer/debian-installer_20070308etch4_ia64.deb
Changes: debian-installer (20070308etch4) oldstable; urgency=low
 .
  * Rebuild to ensure that we include the updated archive key.


Override entries for your package:
debian-installer_20070308etch4_ia64.deb - optional devel



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Accepted:
win32-loader_0.6.11.dsc
  to pool/main/w/win32-loader/win32-loader_0.6.11.dsc
win32-loader_0.6.11.tar.gz
  to pool/main/w/win32-loader/win32-loader_0.6.11.tar.gz
win32-loader_0.6.11_all.deb
  to pool/main/w/win32-loader/win32-loader_0.6.11_all.deb


Override entries for your package:
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Announcing to debian-devel-chan...@lists.debian.org
Closing bugs: 517174 520999 522653 


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Bug#520999: marked as done ([INTL:kk] Kazakh debconf templates translation)

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Your message dated Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:17:03 +
with message-id 
and subject line Bug#520999: fixed in win32-loader 0.6.11
has caused the Debian Bug report #520999,
regarding [INTL:kk] Kazakh debconf templates translation
to be marked as done.

This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the
Bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what this
message is talking about, this may indicate a serious mail system
misconfiguration somewhere. Please contact ow...@bugs.debian.org
immediately.)


-- 
520999: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=520999
Debian Bug Tracking System
Contact ow...@bugs.debian.org with problems
--- Begin Message ---
Package: win32-loader
Version: N/A
Severity: wishlist
Tags: l10n patch

Please find attached the Kazakh translation of the win32-loader package.



win32-loader_l10n_po_kk.po
Description: Binary data

-- 
Timur
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Source: win32-loader
Source-Version: 0.6.11

We believe that the bug you reported is fixed in the latest version of
win32-loader, which is due to be installed in the Debian FTP archive:

win32-loader_0.6.11.dsc
  to pool/main/w/win32-loader/win32-loader_0.6.11.dsc
win32-loader_0.6.11.tar.gz
  to pool/main/w/win32-loader/win32-loader_0.6.11.tar.gz
win32-loader_0.6.11_all.deb
  to pool/main/w/win32-loader/win32-loader_0.6.11_all.deb



A summary of the changes between this version and the previous one is
attached.

Thank you for reporting the bug, which will now be closed.  If you
have further comments please address them to 520...@bugs.debian.org,
and the maintainer will reopen the bug report if appropriate.

Debian distribution maintenance software
pp.
Robert Millan  (supplier of updated win32-loader 
package)

(This message was generated automatically at their request; if you
believe that there is a problem with it please contact the archive
administrators by mailing ftpmas...@debian.org)


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.8
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:02:05 +0200
Source: win32-loader
Binary: win32-loader
Architecture: source all
Version: 0.6.11
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Debian Install System Team 
Changed-By: Robert Millan 
Description: 
 win32-loader - Debian-Installer loader for win32
Closes: 517174 520999 522653
Changes: 
 win32-loader (0.6.11) unstable; urgency=low
 .
   * Remove kludge for etch support.
   * Merge all plugin code into a single DLL.
   * Update to new NSIS plugin API.  (Closes: #517174)
   * Update my email address.
 .
   [ Added translations ]
   * Kazakh (kk.po) by Dauren Sarsenov. Closes: #520999
 This language is not activated yet because NSIS is not
 translated.
 .
   [ Updated translations ]
   * Belarusian (be.po) by Pavel Piatruk
   * German (de.po) by Jan Keller
   * Esperanto (eo.po) by Felipe Castro
   * Kazakh (kk.po) by Dauren Sarsenov
   * Bokmål, Norwegian (nb.po) by Hans Fredrik Nordhaug
   * Russian (ru.po) by Yuri Kozlov  (Closes: #522653)
   * Traditional Chinese (zh_TW.po) by Tetralet
Checksums-Sha1: 
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win32-loader_0.6.11.tar.gz
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win32-loader_0.6.11_all.deb
Files: 
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 ef2bce2b8012bc06c5188ab55c811528 154432 utils extra win32-loader_0.6.11.tar.gz
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--- End Message ---

Bug#517174: marked as done (win32-loader: FTBFS: error: exdll.h: No such file or directory)

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Your message dated Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:17:03 +
with message-id 
and subject line Bug#517174: fixed in win32-loader 0.6.11
has caused the Debian Bug report #517174,
regarding win32-loader: FTBFS: error: exdll.h: No such file or directory
to be marked as done.

This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the
Bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what this
message is talking about, this may indicate a serious mail system
misconfiguration somewhere. Please contact ow...@bugs.debian.org
immediately.)


-- 
517174: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=517174
Debian Bug Tracking System
Contact ow...@bugs.debian.org with problems
--- Begin Message ---
Package: win32-loader
Version: 0.6.10
Severity: serious
Tags: sid

Due to some upstream changes in the way nsis has plugins built,
win32-loader FTBFS and will need to be adapted. Please see the nsis
README.Debian file for more information about that. The good news is
this is much less ad-hoc than before. Please note that the static
library that plugins need to be built against is unstripped and so it is
very much recommended to strip debug symbols from your plugins to reduce
their size. 

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Source: win32-loader
Source-Version: 0.6.11

We believe that the bug you reported is fixed in the latest version of
win32-loader, which is due to be installed in the Debian FTP archive:

win32-loader_0.6.11.dsc
  to pool/main/w/win32-loader/win32-loader_0.6.11.dsc
win32-loader_0.6.11.tar.gz
  to pool/main/w/win32-loader/win32-loader_0.6.11.tar.gz
win32-loader_0.6.11_all.deb
  to pool/main/w/win32-loader/win32-loader_0.6.11_all.deb



A summary of the changes between this version and the previous one is
attached.

Thank you for reporting the bug, which will now be closed.  If you
have further comments please address them to 517...@bugs.debian.org,
and the maintainer will reopen the bug report if appropriate.

Debian distribution maintenance software
pp.
Robert Millan  (supplier of updated win32-loader 
package)

(This message was generated automatically at their request; if you
believe that there is a problem with it please contact the archive
administrators by mailing ftpmas...@debian.org)


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.8
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:02:05 +0200
Source: win32-loader
Binary: win32-loader
Architecture: source all
Version: 0.6.11
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Debian Install System Team 
Changed-By: Robert Millan 
Description: 
 win32-loader - Debian-Installer loader for win32
Closes: 517174 520999 522653
Changes: 
 win32-loader (0.6.11) unstable; urgency=low
 .
   * Remove kludge for etch support.
   * Merge all plugin code into a single DLL.
   * Update to new NSIS plugin API.  (Closes: #517174)
   * Update my email address.
 .
   [ Added translations ]
   * Kazakh (kk.po) by Dauren Sarsenov. Closes: #520999
 This language is not activated yet because NSIS is not
 translated.
 .
   [ Updated translations ]
   * Belarusian (be.po) by Pavel Piatruk
   * German (de.po) by Jan Keller
   * Esperanto (eo.po) by Felipe Castro
   * Kazakh (kk.po) by Dauren Sarsenov
   * Bokmål, Norwegian (nb.po) by Hans Fredrik Nordhaug
   * Russian (ru.po) by Yuri Kozlov  (Closes: #522653)
   * Traditional Chinese (zh_TW.po) by Tetralet
Checksums-Sha1: 
 0ad0a1174bc2c9eb8cf5e2575e1f2778adeebdaa 1002 win32-loader_0.6.11.dsc
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win32-loader_0.6.11_all.deb
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=xySy
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--- End Message ---

Bug#522653: marked as done (win32-loader: [INTL:ru] Russian program translation update)

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Your message dated Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:17:03 +
with message-id 
and subject line Bug#522653: fixed in win32-loader 0.6.11
has caused the Debian Bug report #522653,
regarding win32-loader: [INTL:ru] Russian program translation update
to be marked as done.

This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the
Bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what this
message is talking about, this may indicate a serious mail system
misconfiguration somewhere. Please contact ow...@bugs.debian.org
immediately.)


-- 
522653: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=522653
Debian Bug Tracking System
Contact ow...@bugs.debian.org with problems
--- Begin Message ---
Package: win32-loader
Version: 0.6.10
Severity: wishlist
Tags: l10n patch


Russian program translation update is attached.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: squeeze/sid
  APT prefers testing
  APT policy: (500, 'testing')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)

Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-amd64 (SMP w/4 CPU cores)
Locale: LANG=ru_RU.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=ru_RU.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
# translation of ru.po to Russian
# This file is distributed under the same license as the win32-loader package.
#
# Evgeny Burzak , 2006.
# Yuri Kozlov , 2007, 2008.
# Yuri Kozlov , 2009.
msgid ""
msgstr ""
"Project-Id-Version: win32-loader 0.6.10\n"
"Report-Msgid-Bugs-To: \n"
"POT-Creation-Date: 2009-01-03 22:10+\n"
"PO-Revision-Date: 2009-03-22 09:12+0300\n"
"Last-Translator: Yuri Kozlov \n"
"Language-Team: Russian \n"
"MIME-Version: 1.0\n"
"Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8\n"
"Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit\n"
"X-Generator: KBabel 1.11.4\n"
"Plural-Forms:  nplurals=3; plural=(n%10==1 && n%100!=11 ? 0 : n%10>=2 && 
n%10<=4 && (n%100<10 || n%100>=20) ? 1 : 2);\n"

#. translate:
#. This must be a valid string recognised by Nsis.  If your
#. language is not yet supported by Nsis, please translate the
#. missing Nsis part first.
#.
#: win32-loader.sh:36 win32-loader.c:39
msgid "LANG_ENGLISH"
msgstr "LANG_RUSSIAN"

#. translate:
#. This must be the string used by GNU iconv to represent the charset used
#. by Windows for your language.  If you don't know, check
#. [wine]/tools/wmc/lang.c, or 
http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/reference/WinCP.mspx
#.
#. IMPORTANT: In the rest of this file, only the subset of UTF-8 that can be
#. converted to this charset should be used.
#: win32-loader.sh:52
msgid "windows-1252"
msgstr "windows-1251"

#. translate:
#. Charset used by NTLDR in your localised version of Windows XP.  If you
#. don't know, maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page helps.
#: win32-loader.sh:57
msgid "cp437"
msgstr "cp866"

#. translate:
#. The name of your language _in English_ (must be restricted to ascii)
#: win32-loader.sh:67
msgid "English"
msgstr "Russian"

#. translate:
#. IMPORTANT: only the subset of UTF-8 that can be converted to NTLDR charset
#. (e.g. cp437) should be used in this string.  If you don't know which charset
#. applies, limit yourself to ascii.
#: win32-loader.sh:81
msgid "Debian Installer"
msgstr "Программа установки Debian"

#. translate:
#. The nlf file for your language should be found in
#. /usr/share/nsis/Contrib/Language files/
#.
#: win32-loader.c:68
msgid "English.nlf"
msgstr "Russian.nlf"

#: win32-loader.c:71
msgid "Debian-Installer Loader"
msgstr "Загрузчик программы установки Debian"

#: win32-loader.c:72
msgid "Cannot find win32-loader.ini."
msgstr "Не удалось найти win32-loader.ini."

#: win32-loader.c:73
msgid "win32-loader.ini is incomplete.  Contact the provider of this medium."
msgstr "В win32-loader.ini не хватает данных. Обратитесь к поставщику этого 
носителя."

#: win32-loader.c:74
msgid ""
"This program has detected that your keyboard type is \"$0\".  Is this "
"correct?"
msgstr "Обнаружено, что тип вашей клавиатуры \"$0\". Это верно?"

#: win32-loader.c:75
msgid ""
"Please send a bug report with the following information:\n"
"\n"
" - Version of Windows.\n"
" - Country settings.\n"
" - Real keyboard type.\n"
" - Detected keyboard type.\n"
"\n"
"Thank you."
msgstr ""
"Отправьте отчёт об ошибке со следующей информацией:\n"
"\n"
" - версия Windows\n"
" - региональные настройки\n"
" - настоящий тип клавиатуры\n"
" - определившийся тип клавиатуры\n"
"\n"
"Спасибо."

#: win32-loader.c:76
msgid ""
"There doesn't seem to be enough free disk space in drive $c.  For a complete "
"desktop install, it is recommended to have at least 3 GB.  If there is "
"already a separate disk or partition to install Debian, or if you plan to "
"replace Windows completely, you can safely ignore this warning."
msgstr ""
"Недостаточно свободного места на диске $c. Для установки полноценного "
"рабочего стола рекомендуется освободить на диске как минимум 3 Гб. Если в "
"вашей системе уже есть отдельный жёсткий диск или раздел для установки "
"Debian, или есл

Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[Stephen Gran]

This one time, at band camp, William Pitcock said:
> The only way it is feasible to do so is to drop all of the Debian
> patches. Without this, upstream is not cooperative with us.

Why is this?
-- 
 -
|   ,''`.Stephen Gran |
|  : :' :sg...@debian.org |
|  `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer |
|`- http://www.debian.org |
 -


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Complete draft of the March 16th and 30th meetings minutes

[Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05-04-2009 23:20, Frans Pop wrote:
> On Monday 06 April 2009, Otavio Salvador wrote:
[...]
>> As you can see on the meeting minutes nobody has objected to it...
> 
> I think that's primarily because nobody had an opinion on it as so far 
> nobody has ever shown any real and sustained interest in helping out with 
> the manual [1]. So TBH I'm not very impressed by that argument.
> 
> As soon as someone steps up and actually commits to helping out with 
> maintenance of and RM for the manual (which is a fairly serious amount of 
> work BTW), I'll be happy to explain how and why I do things as I 
> currently do them [2].

[...]

> [1] Yes, faw does the daily builds, but the original intention was that 
> he'd take over RM, which never happened (which is fine). And yes, Colin 
> is very good at providing/committing patches when he makes functional 
> changes in D-I, but that's not the same as what we're talking about here.
> 
> [2] Just as I did, in great detail, when faw took over the daily builds. 
> See mailing list archives.

Let me just add a few points here.

Indeed, I would love to get more involved in D-I and
D-I Manual, but besides some personal reasons that some people
are aware of that preventing me to spend more time in Debian
there are other reasons/factors.

There is a huge gap between Frans' knowledge of D-I
and my knowledge of it and after a few weeks it became quite
clear that a great part of the work related to the manual is
not building or packaging it (both are very important), but
the review and synchronization of work and the consistency
with the actual behavior of D-I, those are vital to have a
high quality manual/guide.

Frans' is usually faster than me in dealing with the
interactions with translators and upload coordination, he is
also much more recommended to deal with the technical aspects
of changes and details and although I do take care of physical
parts and synchronization of different parts with him and
others (I'm always monitoring the lists with regards to the
D-I Manual) there is no doubt that I do not feel the best
person to replace him.

Once it became clear to me that I could not keep the
same pace as Frans in following D-I development, I refrain
myself to try to have a very good understanding of the build
and package system involved (and we never discussed that in
deep), I do consider myself as his backup in terms of D-I
Manual, I'm unsure if he trust me enough to do an upload if
needed (or if D-I Team also sees me as the backup guy for
D-I Manual).

I don't know why but it is usually quite easy for me
to work with him, I know he is stubborn (we both are Dutch
anyway) but he always had been very nice in giving me
instructions, advices and explanations.

I can try to get more involved in D-I Manual and
coordinate the work with him, I do have pending ToDo items
regarding it for the Squeeze Release Cycle and it would
probably work better than try to push things in this field,
that would probably start becoming a reality in the second
semester of 2009.

Except for that, I'm sorry for not taking over the
D-I Manual RM, I just felt Debian would lost if I had
replaced Frans back in 2007/2008.

Kind regards,
- --
Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)
"Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom!"
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Unblock openssl

[Kurt Roeckx]

Hi,

Can openssl 0.9.8g-16 be hinted to testing?

It fixes a security issue.

It has a udeb.


Kurt


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Re: Complete draft of the March 16th and 30th meetings minutes

[Frans Pop]

On Monday 06 April 2009, Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) wrote:
> [...] I'm unsure if he trust me enough to do an upload if
> needed (or if D-I Team also sees me as the backup guy for
> D-I Manual).

"trust" is the wrong word here.

Currently I would not like you to do a release without me being involved 
on the sideline simply because we never got around to discussing what is 
involved in doing/managing a release. However, I definitely do trust you 
in the sense that I know you're aware of that and thus would always 
coordinate/check with me beforehand.

If I were to, as they say, step under a bus and someone else would be 
forced to take over, you are IMO the best qualified person to do so.
You know the build system well, have actively followed commits and 
releases so you know a lot of what's involved even if we never discussed 
the details, and as a bonus you're also a translator and are thus very 
familiar with that side of it.

I would still love to see you take a more active role when it comes to 
actually maintaining the manual (both editing and RM), but the initiative 
for that has to come from you. And if you still lack the time/whatever to 
do so, that's fine too.

Cheers,
FJP


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Bug#522864: installation-reports

[Viper550]

Package: installation-reports

Boot method: CD
Image version: 5.00 NetInst
Date: April 6, 2009

Machine: VirtualBox VM running on Compaq Presario SR2038X on Windows Vista
Processor: AMD Athlon64 X2
Memory:356 MB allocated

Base System Installation Checklist:
[O] = OK, [E] = Error (please elaborate below), [ ] = didn't try it

Initial boot:   [ O]
Detect network card:[O ]
Configure network:  [ O]
Detect CD:  [O ]
Load installer modules: [O]
Detect hard drives: [O]
Partition hard drives:  [O]
Install base system:[O]
Clock/timezone setup:   [O]
User/password setup:[O]
Install tasks:  [O]
Install boot loader:[O ]
Overall install:[ ]

Comments/Problems:
I have several nitpicks with the installer, though most of them involve the GUI 
installer.

Firstly, the GUI installer, looks and acts a bit too much like just the old 
ncurses style mode, maybe following the Gnome HIG could make the options flow a 
bit better.

Secondly, on package selection, there should be more groups avaliable. What if 
I want a different desktop than Gnome? There should be other package group 
options in the installer.

Other than that, nice work!




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Bug#522864: marked as done (installation-reports)

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Your message dated Tue, 7 Apr 2009 04:50:36 +0200
with message-id <200904070450.38699.elen...@planet.nl>
and subject line Re: Bug#522864: installation-reports
has caused the Debian Bug report #522864,
regarding installation-reports
to be marked as done.

This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the
Bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what this
message is talking about, this may indicate a serious mail system
misconfiguration somewhere. Please contact ow...@bugs.debian.org
immediately.)


-- 
522864: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=522864
Debian Bug Tracking System
Contact ow...@bugs.debian.org with problems
--- Begin Message ---

Package: installation-reports

Boot method: CD
Image version: 5.00 NetInst
Date: April 6, 2009

Machine: VirtualBox VM running on Compaq Presario SR2038X on Windows Vista
Processor: AMD Athlon64 X2
Memory:356 MB allocated

Base System Installation Checklist:
[O] = OK, [E] = Error (please elaborate below), [ ] = didn't try it

Initial boot:   [ O]
Detect network card:[O ]
Configure network:  [ O]
Detect CD:  [O ]
Load installer modules: [O]
Detect hard drives: [O]
Partition hard drives:  [O]
Install base system:[O]
Clock/timezone setup:   [O]
User/password setup:[O]
Install tasks:  [O]
Install boot loader:[O ]
Overall install:[ ]

Comments/Problems:
I have several nitpicks with the installer, though most of them involve the GUI 
installer.

Firstly, the GUI installer, looks and acts a bit too much like just the old 
ncurses style mode, maybe following the Gnome HIG could make the options flow a 
bit better.

Secondly, on package selection, there should be more groups avaliable. What if 
I want a different desktop than Gnome? There should be other package group 
options in the installer.

Other than that, nice work!



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Viper550 wrote:
> Comments/Problems:
> Firstly, the GUI installer, looks and acts a bit too much like just the
> old ncurses style mode, maybe following the Gnome HIG could make the
> options flow a bit better.

True, but that is partly a consequence of the technical implementation. 
However, if you have concrete suggestions for improvement you are most 
welcome to submit patches.

> Secondly, on package selection, there should be more groups avaliable.
> What if I want a different desktop than Gnome?

Then you can select it:
http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/manual/en.i386/ch06s03.html#di-install-software

Agreed, it could be easier to do this, but there are historical and 
technical reasons why that's currently not the case.

As your installation was otherwise successful, I'm closing your report. 
Thanks for submitting it and good luck with the new system.

Cheers,
FJP

--- End Message ---

Bug#509371: installation-guide: Installation guide accessibility sections

[Frans Pop]

On Monday 06 April 2009, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > (I don't do this that often either; grep in existing docs is your
> > friend.)
>
> Yes, it doesn't work very well in the installation guide, but it does
> in the release notes indeed.

Well, it works for me even for the manual :-)

> Here is an updated patch.

I've reviewed the patch and below a diff with some suggested changes.
Please check them and let me know if you're OK with them. A few are to
avoid unnecessary branding. A few are because the architecture list for
the manual is slightly different from the "normal" architecture list.
Some are for general consistency.

After you are OK I'll merge these changes, do some needed whitespace
cleanups and commit the patch.

Cheers,
FJP

diff --git a/manual/en/boot-installer/accessibility.xml 
b/manual/en/boot-installer/accessibility.xml
index f94d699..1de274f 100644
--- a/manual/en/boot-installer/accessibility.xml
+++ b/manual/en/boot-installer/accessibility.xml
@@ -4,10 +4,10 @@
  Accessibility
 
 
-Some users may need particular support because of e.g. some visual
+Some users may need specific support because of e.g. some visual
 impairment. USB braille
-displays are automatically detected, but most other  Most accessibility
+displays are detected automatically, but most other Most accessibility
 features have to be enabled manually. On machines
 that support it, the boot menu emits a beep when it is ready to receive
 keystrokes. Some boot parameters can then
@@ -34,16 +34,16 @@ you can choose a braille table by entering the preference 
menu.
 
 
 Serial braille displays cannot safely be automatically detected
-(since that may brick some of them).  You thus need to append the
+(since that may damage some of them).  You thus need to append the
 
brltty=driver,port,table
 boot parameter to tell brltty which driver it should 
use.
-driver should be replaced by the two-letter driver code
-for your terminal, see in the driver 
code
-list. device should be replaced by the name of
+driver should be replaced by the two-letter driver 
code
+for your terminal (see the driver code
+list). device should be replaced by the 
name of
 the serial port the display is connected to, ttyS0 is
-the default. table is the name of the braille table to
-be used, see the table code list,
-the english table is the default.  Note that the table can be changed later by
+the default. table is the name of the braille table 
to
+be used (see the table code 
list);
+the English table is the default.  Note that the table can be changed later by
 entering the preference menu.
 
 
@@ -54,17 +54,17 @@ entering the preference menu.
 
 
 
-Support for hardware speech synthesis devices is enabled only along support for
-graphical installer.  You thus need to select the Graphical
-install entry in the boot menu.
+Support for hardware speech synthesis devices is available only alongside 
support for
+graphical installer.  You thus need to select the Graphical
+install entry in the boot menu.
 
 Hardware speech synthesis devices cannot be
 automatically detected.  You thus need to append the
 speakup.synth=driver boot
 parameter to tell speakup which driver it should use.
-driver should be replaced by the driver code for
-your device, see the driver code
-list.  The textual version of the installer will then be automatically
+driver should be replaced by the driver code for
+your device (see driver code
+list).  The textual version of the installer will then be automatically
 selected, and support for the speech synthesis device will be automatically
 installed on the target system.
 
diff --git a/manual/en/hardware/accessibility.xml 
b/manual/en/hardware/accessibility.xml
index d080961..15666cb 100644
--- a/manual/en/hardware/accessibility.xml
+++ b/manual/en/hardware/accessibility.xml
@@ -5,27 +5,27 @@
  Braille Displays
 
 
-Debian's support for braille displays is determined by the underlying
+Support for braille displays is determined by the underlying
 support found in brltty. Most displays
-work under brltty, via serial, USB or
+work under brltty, connected via either a serial port, 
USB or
 bluetooth. Details on supported braille devices can be found on the brltty website. Debian
+url="&url-brltty;">brltty website. &debian;
 &release; ships with brltty version &brlttyver;.
 
 
  
 
  
- Hardware Speech Syntheses
+ Hardware Speech Synthesis
 
 
-Debian's support for hardware speech synthesis devices is determined
+Support for hardware speech synthesis devices is determined
 by the underlying support found in speakup.
 speakup only supports integrated boards and external
 devices connected to a serial port (no USB or serial-to-USB adapters are
 supported).  Details on supported hardware speech synthesis devices can
 be found on the speakup
-website. Debian &release; ships with speakup
+website. &debian; &release; ships with speakup
 version &speakupver;.
 
 



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Re: lilo about to be dropped?

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Mon, 06 Apr 2009, Matthew Johnson wrote:
> On Mon Apr 06 11:07, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> > So lets get grub2 working everywhere. :) A worthy goal.
> Sure, but don't remove lilo until we're happy that grub2 does work
> everywhere.

And that we have something resembling acceptable, up-to-date documentation
for it.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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