Re: [Debconf-team] reports from Le Camp "BSP", part 1-3: irc meeting(s) on the internet

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Holger,

On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 12:52:23AM +0100, Holger Levsen wrote:
> so, you can flame now.

On the contrary: Many thanks for your detailed report and the insight
you gave.  This draws a very better picture than past discussions here
on the list.  Many thanks for this!  Considering you also visited one
proposed alternative (Interlaken) I would like to trust you and the
voting (from first part) that Le Camp might make a nice DebConf.

Many thanks

 Andreas.

PS: The only thing I was missing in your report is that there was no
discussion whether it is a problem if people do not wear shoes.
;-) 

-- 
http://fam-tille.de
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] Website restyle

[Raphaël Walther]

Hello Allison,
On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 05:38:06PM +0100, Allison Randal wrote:
> On 10/28/2012 12:16 AM, Gaudenz Steinlin wrote:
> Okay, that's easy enough. I've commented out the link for the Spanish
> translation, and will change it to whatever translation language is
> chosen. (I'm leaving all the translation templating in place.)
> 
> > As we don't have any sponsors yet, I don't think we should put any
> > sponsors logos onto the site. So just removeing the one from last your
> > from the design is fine.
> 
> I left the Permanent sponsors and SPI in the footer, but removed the
> others for now. Will add them back in as sponsors sign up.

I think we should remove the permanent sponsors until they commit. Also
I'd like to help on the website because I think that most of potential
sponsors will have at least a look on it.

Cheers,
Raphaël
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

[Debconf-team] Le Camp / payment terms / the DebDebt?

[Daniel Pocock]

Quoting the two points from Holger's email on payment terms:

 "* About paying in advance: we agreed to put something in the contract
to pay
30k end of February 2012, second 30k end of May 2012, "but": two weeks
later
is fine and if we'd only had 25k at that moment it would also be no big
issue.
This will obviously not be part of the contract (because it would be silly)
but we all 4 consider it part of the deal.

 * All the rest (aka the final bill) is due at the end of the conference,
which I think expresses the mutual trust nicely. And is also very
convinient
to us."

For the instalments: has DebConf usually raised cash so quickly and so
far in advance?  I have previously heard that most cash comes 1 month
before DebConf.

For the final bill:

- at first glance, it appears positive that people won't be standing in
the street if money is not paid in advance, but a deeper reflection on
this should raise concerns

- when things like this are done on `credit', it can become harder to
track, e.g. if 400 people show up and start sleeping/camping, Le Camp
will rightfully add that to the bill and may only discover later that we
only raised enough money to pay for 320 sleeping on site.  By then, it
might be too late to fix it, because the people have gone and nobody can
ask for them to pay a registration fee or meal supplement (and by the
sounds of things, most people wouldn't want to pay either)

- it also means that there may not be the right kind of pressure on the
sponsorship team.  The original scenario (where we could lose the 60k
installments and have been standing in the street with nowhere to go)
was very risky and the sponsorship team would have been under immense
pressure to raise the remaining 100k after paying the first 60k.  I can
imagine everyone feeling sick in the stomach if only half the money was
found, and this can be counterproductive and almost lead to `paralysis'.
 The `pay later' option is quite the opposite: there is a risk that
people can slow down a little or even become complacent after paying the
installments.

- there is also the general concept that some people feel `debt is just
bad' or `debt always creates risk'.  When people are under pressure and
debt is available, sometimes people just don't find the right balance
(either deliberately, or purely in error, or through misinformation, or
just from trying to please 300 people and losing track of the budget).
The converse argument is that we should only do things if we have money
to pay for them.  We could still do this with Le Camp: we just tell them
on day 1 `we raised another 50k, here it is, you now have 110k, don't
expect any more, feed us until the account is empty and then we'll start
scavenging'.  However, this is not very elegant and it may be better to
have a more flexible structure that allows us to control the way we
ration the money if there is a shortfall.
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] Le Camp / payment terms / the DebDebt?

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Montag, 29. Oktober 2012, Daniel Pocock wrote:
> For the instalments: has DebConf usually raised cash so quickly and so
> far in advance?  I have previously heard that most cash comes 1 month
> before DebConf.

we already have 6k at least (=might be 11) plus those 2x20k plus its still >4 
months.
 
> For the final bill:
> 
> - at first glance, it appears positive that people won't be standing in
> the street if money is not paid in advance, but a deeper reflection on
> this should raise concerns

well, yes, every coin has at least four sides, but really here for us, paying 
later is better.

> - when things like this are done on `credit', it can become harder to
> track [blabla]

yes, obviously we need to do our own bookkeeping. Like we did for the last >8 
years at least.

> - it also means that there may not be the right kind of pressure on the
> sponsorship team.

because everybody suddenly turns stupid? The pressure is there *now*, we need 
get sponsors in the next 45 days, if we want 2012 accounted money and xmas 
boni. 


cheers,
Holger
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] Website restyle

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Montag, 29. Oktober 2012, Raphaël Walther wrote:
> I think we should remove the permanent sponsors until they commit.

they commited already, thats why there "permanently" listed.

> Also
> I'd like to help on the website because I think that most of potential
> sponsors will have at least a look on it.

indeed & yay!


cheers,
Holger
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] Le Camp / payment terms / the DebDebt?

[Philipp Hug]

Hi,

>> For the final bill:
>>
>> - at first glance, it appears positive that people won't be standing in
>> the street if money is not paid in advance, but a deeper reflection on
>> this should raise concerns
>
> well, yes, every coin has at least four sides, but really here for us, paying
> later is better.

I do agree, that there's a risk here. As we only get the final invoice
after the conference we might get a surprise because we calculated
differently than LeCamp.

Philipp
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] Website restyle

[Allison Randal]

On 10/29/2012 09:30 AM, Raphaël Walther wrote:
> 
> I think we should remove the permanent sponsors until they commit. 

Okay, removed those as well.

> Also
> I'd like to help on the website because I think that most of potential
> sponsors will have at least a look on it.

Please, dive in, there's quite a lot of work still needed, so the more
hands the better.

Allison
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] Le Camp / payment terms / the DebDebt?

[Holger Levsen]

On Montag, 29. Oktober 2012, Philipp Hug wrote:
> I do agree, that there's a risk here. As we only get the final invoice
> after the conference we might get a surprise because we calculated
> differently than LeCamp.

right, there is a risk. but can we migate it, maybe? and if so how?



/me yawns.
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] Le Camp / payment terms / the DebDebt?

[Daniel Pocock]

On 29/10/12 10:59, Holger Levsen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Montag, 29. Oktober 2012, Daniel Pocock wrote:
>> For the instalments: has DebConf usually raised cash so quickly and so
>> far in advance?  I have previously heard that most cash comes 1 month
>> before DebConf.
> 
> we already have 6k at least (=might be 11) plus those 2x20k plus its still >4 
> months.
>  
>> For the final bill:
>>
>> - at first glance, it appears positive that people won't be standing in
>> the street if money is not paid in advance, but a deeper reflection on
>> this should raise concerns
> 
> well, yes, every coin has at least four sides, but really here for us, paying 
> later is better.

`Paying later is better' may be true (especially when you already have
the money and you can invest it on the side for profit) - but that
doesn't eliminate the legitimate comments about the nature the debt in
this case.

>> - when things like this are done on `credit', it can become harder to
>> track [blabla]
> 
> yes, obviously we need to do our own bookkeeping. Like we did for the last >8 
> years at least.

There is a saying: "If you owe the bank $100,000, the bank owns you.  If
you owe the bank $100,000,000, you own the bank".  What this means is
that there are different types of debt.  Also, there are different types
of DebConf every year, different teams, different continents.  I'm not
trying to question anybody's intentions or experience, but it is
reasonable to emphasize that the current budget - and the proposed debt
- is bigger than anything seen before.

>> - it also means that there may not be the right kind of pressure on the
>> sponsorship team.
> 
> because everybody suddenly turns stupid? The pressure is there *now*, we need 
> get sponsors in the next 45 days, if we want 2012 accounted money and xmas 
> boni. 


Did I say anyone is stupid?

It has been said many times that raising that first 60k CHF won't be so
hard given existing sponsors, etc.  Only after that, the hard work will
really commence, as the effort to find each additional sponsor is not
linear, it may be quadratic or exponential.

For people concerned about these risks (and I agree they appear slightly
less severe than before, but the budget is still big), it may be
desirable to complement the budget with a sensitivity analysis[1] and
produce a matrix showing the impact on the event, e.g.:

  http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/BudgetMatrix



1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivity_analysis
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] reports from Le Camp "BSP", part 1-3: irc meeting(s) on the internet

[Moray Allan]

On 2012-10-29 08:12, Andreas Tille wrote:

Considering you also visited one
proposed alternative (Interlaken) I would like to trust you and the
voting (from first part) that Le Camp might make a nice DebConf.


The problem is not to answer "What is nicer?" but to be sure that we 
choose something that works in budget and other terms.  There remain big 
questions about Le Camp, while for Interlaken we don't even have a 
complete specific proposal to the level that would be required at this 
stage.


The problem is anyway not to answer "Le Camp vs. Interlaken".  It has 
not yet been shown that either of these options will work with 
acceptable risks, so that still needs to happen before we sign anything. 
If it turned out that neither works, we would need to do something 
else; presenting it as A vs. B is a false dichotomy.


Only if it is shown that both options would work equally well for 
Debian in budget/risks/etc. is it relevant to ask which is nicer.


--
Moray
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] reports from Le Camp "BSP", part 1-3: irc meeting(s) on the internet

[Andreas Tille]

On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 12:10:37PM +, Moray Allan wrote:
> 
> Only if it is shown that both options would work equally well for
> Debian in budget/risks/etc. is it relevant to ask which is nicer.

I have choosen the term "nice" more or less as a sign of optimism in
contrast of some very sad messages here and Holgers report sounded to me
like "yes, it is possible" in Le Camp.  My reference to his Interlaken
visit was just because he has at least visited a single alternative.  I
agree that we need to check all the budget/risk/etc but Holger's
detailed mails based on face to face meetings shed some way better light
on the issue than mails on this list did the last couple of weeks.

Kind regards and thanks again to Holger for all his traveling and other
efforts

   Andreas.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] reports from Le Camp "BSP", part 1-3: irc meeting(s) on the internet

[Holger Levsen]

On Montag, 29. Oktober 2012, Moray Allan wrote:
> The problem is anyway not to answer "Le Camp vs. Interlaken".  It has
> not yet been shown that either of these options will work with
> acceptable risks,

IMO it has for Le Camp.
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] reports from Le Camp "BSP", part 1-3: irc meeting(s) on the internet

[Daniel Pocock]

On 29/10/12 14:10, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Montag, 29. Oktober 2012, Moray Allan wrote:
>> The problem is anyway not to answer "Le Camp vs. Interlaken".  It has
>> not yet been shown that either of these options will work with
>> acceptable risks,
> 
> IMO it has for Le Camp.

There seem to be a lot of people - Moray and myself included, if you
look at this email thread alone - who do not yet have enough information
to share your optimism

I've read your emails carefully, and I simply don't see `proof'.  I see
more flexibility from Le Camp (but Interlaken is still more flexible)
and as Moray rightly commented, both of them are still expensive (and
I've never suggested it would not be).



___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] reports from Le Camp "BSP", part 3: irc meeting(s) on the internet

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Montag, 29. Oktober 2012, Moray Allan wrote:
> On 2012-10-28 23:52, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > we decide RSN.
> I would hope so. 

No, just hoping is too little. We should activly work towards that goal!!

If we dont manage to decide in the next 14 days, I personally think that it 
will be very hard/unrealistic to gather sponsors in 2012 and if we fail to do 
that, things will definitly become considerably more difficult. At the end of 
the year there is quite some easy to get money floating around, but one needs 
to apply for this earlier.


> But unfortunately it's premature to make any "final"
> decision until there is at least one plausible option presented,
> including among other things a plausible budget.

The budgets we had at Le Camp were/are IMO plausibe, have they still not been 
added to svn?

(currently+all day on a train with somewhat crappy connection..)

> Once a plausible budget is put together by the team, the next stage (of
> the previously agreed process) is to present it to the DPL for approval.
> (That is meant to happen before anything is confirmed as definite to
> suppliers/venues, obviously.)

Thanks for reminding me about this step. Is it documented somewhere?
 
> > Surely one can look for dc13 sponsors now as the situation is
> Yes -- as has been said, it's late already.  And the best way to show
> that any of the possible Swiss budgets are plausible would be to quickly
> get some promises of cash from non-repeat sponsors, to demonstrate that
> we can expect the sponsorship income to be greater than the last few
> years.

we already have 46k secured for Le Camp, quite very probably 51k. Thats way 
more then ever. (I do actually miss some applause here.)

(And btw but not to be underestimated as well: constant nitpicking might 
distract and demotivate those looking for sponsors. Just saying - finding 
problems is useful, but forgetting to go forward is harmful.)


cheers,
Holger

___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] reports from Le Camp "BSP", part 3: irc meeting(s) on the internet

[Gunnar Wolf]

Holger Levsen dijo [Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 12:52:23AM +0100]:
> So, as a meeting in Le Camp we came to the conclusion to recommend to the 
> globalteam to have DebConf13 in Le Camp and also to come to a final decision 
> rather fast. Thats why we want an IRC meeting soon, eg next Friday (November 
> 2nd) or Monday (November 5th). My proposal would be 18 UTC.
> 
> And as we want this meeting to come to a final decision we thought that the 
> only hard requirement would be that (at least) all DebConf chairs were 
> present.
> (...)
> But maybe this is too much hurry and too much focusing on the chairs to break 
> decision ties, instead of doing this a tiny bit more slowly and just "using 
> the chairs" to make sure, we decide RSN. Not having a decision hurts us now, 
> which is exactly the last timeframe to ask sponsors for money in 2012: 
> November. December is mostly busy/too late with other stuff, while many 
> companies do have money to spend end of the year... thats really why I want 
> to 
> hurry.

Hi Holger and team!

I don't really share the need for all of the Mighty Chairs to be
present, but if so is the need, I will ask the meeting to be later —
Or earlier (tomorrow Tuesday). I have not yet sent a [VAC]
announcement, but I will be mostly on the road from Wednesday 31 until
Monday 5, going to the Central American Free Software Encounter (ECSL)
in Guatemala. I expect to be back home late in Monday, but probably
quite tired and with an accumulation of to-do items... So I'd request
for the meeting to be on Wednesday 7.

Now, I completely agree we are very late for fundrising and this has
to be decided quick, so please, feel free to schedule a meeting
without my participation. I *might* be available on Friday 2, but I
cannot count on having reliable Internet access where we will be
meeting, so I'd rather not commit to that date.

Greetings,
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

[Debconf-team] reports from Le Camp "BSP", part 4: some random prices in switzerland

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

just some random data points on what I spent during my 3 days in Switzerland. 
I didnt see a supermarket from inside, just kiosks & bars, basically.

 4.10 CHF 1 tram (public transport) within Zurich, single trip
 9.00 CHF 2 coffees in train
 3.50 CHF crossaint and a cookie (in zurich)
 6.90 CHF small bottle of orange-juice und toast-sandwhich in zurich 
 4.00 CHF small bottle of orange juic at jungfrau park in interlaken
 3.90 CHF 0.3l beer in a small restaurant in interlaken (where even tapwater 
was between 2-5 CHF, though swiss locals said that was exceptional rare. A 
pizza Margarita was 16.80 CHF there...)
26.00 CHF rock-concert (in an alternative location in Bern)
15.00 CHF dinner menu there (soup+main course, either vegan or with meat)
 4.00 CHF 0.3.l beer there, 0.5l was 5 CHF
22.00 CHF individual contribution to raclette and other food on 
saturday+sunday

trains (all one way)

65 CHF Zurich-Interlaken
26 CHF Interlaken-Bern
18.6 CHF   Bern-Neuchatel
18.5 CHF   Neuchatel-Bern, but I actually paid 10 EUR and 7.2 CHF at the 
vending machine.


cheers,
Holger
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] le camp budget...

[Philipp Hug]

Hi,

The updated budget from the weekend was just uploaded.
Changes:
* removed the registration fee
* Reduced some non-essential or too high budgeted expenses
* Created 2 separate sheets (normal, optimistic)
* Reduced number of corporate attendees to 1

I will further discuss this the budget with darst on IRC as soon as he wakes up.
I don't have any updatse on the Interlaken budget yet, I'll update it
as soon as I get updates from Daniel.

Philipp
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] le camp budget...

[Daniel Pocock]

On 29/10/12 15:15, Philipp Hug wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> The updated budget from the weekend was just uploaded.
> Changes:
> * removed the registration fee
> * Reduced some non-essential or too high budgeted expenses
> * Created 2 separate sheets (normal, optimistic)
> * Reduced number of corporate attendees to 1
> 
> I will further discuss this the budget with darst on IRC as soon as he wakes 
> up.
> I don't have any updatse on the Interlaken budget yet, I'll update it
> as soon as I get updates from Daniel.
> 

Which essential items are missing for Interlaken?

Can you use many of the other prices from the Le Camp budget for things
that are similar (e.g. the travel sponsorship costs)?

___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

Re: [Debconf-team] Website restyle

[Luca Capello]

Hi there!

On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 19:50:56 +0200, Allison Randal wrote:
> I've checked in a restyle on the dc13 website. Just theme changes so
> far, no content changes. I went for a red & white theme, inspired by the
> logo. All contributions or changes gladly welcomed. :)

Allison, Eric and Ana (who did stuff before): thank you very much for
all the work done on the website and sorry if I was not promptly
reacting after the last team meeting on IRC:

  


Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca


pgpqhoa3VGWxA.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

[Debconf-team] reports from Le Camp "BSP", part 5: pics

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

http://layer-acht.org/fotos/670_Switzerland_DC13-pre/ has some photos I took 
this weekend. Please excuse the crappy quality! :-)

Some stats I forgot so far:

- 5-10 RC bugs squashed (some people did work on this a bit, but we didnt 
really keep track...)
- 3kg cheese were eaten, I guess
- one bottle of 5.0.2 DebianWine was drunken
- and we had very nice draught beer from zurich as well


cheers,
Holger
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team

[Debconf-team] A better budget analysis

[Richard Darst]

Hi,

This email is from darst (who takes responsibility for most editorial
opinions) and hug, about budget things.

Le Camp:
- ~ 95 kCHF fixed costs, which about matches a "safe" initial
  sponsorship estimate.
  (65 kCHF all accom and 30 kCHF other)
- This is with no attendees.  Each additional attendee costs ~225/week
  (due to food only).
  - Each extra professional registrant, (600 CHF/week), allows 2.6
attendees to come [so 1.6 sponsored attendees]
- But these 1.6 sponsored attendee-weeks must also cover DebCamp
  people
  - Each extra bronze sponsor allows 9 attendees to come, gold, 50 to
come.
- This is with NO travel sponsorship at all.
  - Each 10 kCHF travel sponsorship costs 45 attendee-weeks
- There seems very little potential for reducing overhead costs (70
- kCHF lecamp) or per-person (34 CHF/person-day food)
- If we get to more than 400 person-weeks, per-person costs go up,
- since we must pay more accom. (324 beds total, it is unlikely we'll
- get to this much without > 100 at DebCamp).


Interlaken:
- ~50 kCHF of overhead costs (20 kCHF venue + 30 kCHF other)
- Each attendee costs about 350/week (since we must pay per-attendee
accom)
- The savings of overhead allow about 140 attendees to attend.
- Each 600 CHF prof attendees allow 1.7 attendees to come. [so .7
  sponsored attendees]
- Each sponsor...
  - Each bronze sponsor allows 5.7 attendees to come
  - Each gold sponsor allows 34 attendees to come
- This is also with NO travel sponsorship at all.
  - Each 10 kCHF travel sponsorship costs 30 attendee-weeks.
- Due to all the options and time before commitment, there is a lot of
- potential to reduce the costs.

Common to both:
- We assume 100 kCHF income.  This is still quite a lot more than past
  years, but not totally fanciful.
- All "person-week" things above include DebCamp.  So if we can afford
  150 person-weeks, that could mean 50 DebCamp and 100 DebConf only.
- **NO* travel sponsorship included*!  This means this DebConf will
  exclude many people who can't afford to come.  I think this is a
  problem for both of these options so far...


Comparison:
- Le Camp and Interlaken cost the same for 360 attendee-weeks.  Below
  this, interlaken is cheaper, above this, lecamp is cheaper
  - Above 400 person-weeks, we have to pay per-person accom at le
camp, so it becomes more expensive.
- According to these calcs, we need 133 professionals (at 600
  CHF/week) to achieve 360 person-weeks at le camp (or lots of extra
  sponsorship).  So given our likely situation, le camp remains more
  expensive.


Notes:
- Interlaken 350/week = CHF25 accomodation (including breakfast) +
  CHF25 food (lunch+dinner) / day
  - if we lower to food budget to CHF 20? CHF315/week
- Le Camp 225/week includes only food, since most accom would be below
  forfait (minimum cost).


Thanks,

- Richard (and hug)

-- 
| Richard Darst  -  rkd@  -  pyke: up 35 days, 6:28
|http://rkd.zgib.net  -  pgp 0xBD356740
| "Ye shall know the truth and -- the truth shall make you free"
___
Debconf-team mailing list
Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org
http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team