Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
On Sun, 2011-05-15 at 17:54 +0200, Holger Levsen wrote: > Hi, > > On Freitag, 13. Mai 2011, Ian Campbell wrote: > > Is it expected that there will be shuttles leaving on the Friday? (I'd > > be taking off at 1750) > > I dunno. Adnan? > > (And Ian, take off at 1750 means arriving when in Zaghreb?) My usual rule of thumb would be to get to the airport 2hrs before, although I didn't check the airlines T&C yet. Ian. -- Ian Campbell Current Noise: Suffocation - Pierced From Within Learn to pause -- or nothing worthwhile can catch up to you. ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 00:10 +0200, Adnan Hodzic wrote: > +50 if there is more then 1 guy as I just said, I don't know how much > it makes sense to send a whole shuttle for only one guy. Thanks for the reply, I quite understand your point of view. I'll make my own arrangements. Cheers, Ian. > > > Adnan > > On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:01 AM, Holger Levsen wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Sonntag, 15. Mai 2011, Adnan Hodzic wrote: > >> I guess we could have it arranged, as long as he's not the only time > >> leaving in that time +2/-2hrs. > > > > what if, if he is? > > > > what if, if in that time +-6hrs? > > > > +-24hrs? > > > > > > cheers, > >Holger > > ___ > > Debconf-discuss mailing list > > Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org > > http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss > > > ___ > Debconf-discuss mailing list > Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org > http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss -- Ian Campbell Current Noise: Suffocation - Pierced From Within Did I do an INCORRECT THING?? ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
Hi, On Mon, 16 May 2011 00:01:15 +0200, Holger Levsen wrote: > Hi, > On Sonntag, 15. Mai 2011, Adnan Hodzic wrote: > > I guess we could have it arranged, as long as he's not the only time > > leaving in that time +2/-2hrs. > > what if, if he is? > > what if, if in that time +-6hrs? > > +-24hrs? Presumably, he gets to take the public bus, which run about every 2 hours throughout the day. I really don't see that he should be making his flight decision based on the presence or otherwise of the DebConf shuttle. In fact we should act like a rogue bus service, trying to steal the business from the official busses -- we have more information than them, so if we know we'll have enough customers to pay the hire of a bus (by taking the fees from the public bus and multiplying by passengers) then we should run a bus and otherwise not bother. I think that's what Adnan's been saying all along. Unfortunately, that does mean that we can only run busses to Zagreb, because that's the only place that has a decent bus service without our help. It might have been nice to find out how many people would prefer to travel via Sarajevo, or by train to Okuani, say, and then persuade them all to get there are similar times, and run a bus, but given that Okuani is not a useful place to be in the absence of a DebConf shuttle bus, and we cannot justify such a bus without enough customers, I don't think that's going to happen. That being the case, how about if we announce it something like this: =-=-=-=- There is a regular public bus service (~every 2hrs) from Zagreb to Banya Luka, so this is probably the best place to travel via, for both train and air travellers. If that's not good enough for you, feel free to make your own plans, but note that others have been looking for alternative routes, and most have concluded that alternatives are not better (Hint: the useful trains are slower and less frequent than the busses, and the alternative airports have significantly worse public transport) If you insist on making you own arrangements despite this advice, that is of course your choice, but you might want to read the wiki pages [Travel-Arriving] that include the information that's been discovered by those who have already tried -- please update the wiki if you succeed in finding a good route, and more importantly, fix the wiki so that it would have stopped you wasting your time once you fail. Regardless of what you decide, please add yourself to the [arrivals/departures] page -- if you're flying into Zagreb, this will allow us to determine the busy periods, and lay on extra busses -- if you're going off-piste and doing something like flying elsewhere and hiring a car, it will allow others to get in touch with you for a car share, say. Obviously, if you're about to book, check for times that are already busy, and try to make similar arrangements, since that will ensure that you're in a cluster that will be large enough to justify a bus. If you're uncertain, put a provisional entry in the wiki by recording the flight/train number as "UNBOOKED" as that will allow all the undecided to settle on big groups (if you do this, remember to update things when you actually book -- we'll not plan busses on the strength of unbooked entries) =-=-=-=- Do you think that would help? We should perhaps use something a bit better than that wiki page for recording the arrival/departure times, since it's going to be chaos at busy times, and someone's bound to screw up and delete half of it while trying to sort it into chronological order. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND pgp2RtFWUolz1.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
On Mon, 16 May 2011 09:31:00 +0100, Ian Campbell wrote: > On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 00:10 +0200, Adnan Hodzic wrote: > > +50 if there is more then 1 guy as I just said, I don't know how much > > it makes sense to send a whole shuttle for only one guy. > > Thanks for the reply, I quite understand your point of view. I'll make > my own arrangements. Hi Ian, You are aware of the fact that the public bus service runs every couple of hours from Zagreb to Banja Luka, I take it? I'd say that that fact makes the presence or otherwise of a DebConf shuttle largely irrelevant -- if you're OK with the normal bus service, and you're at a busy time, you'll get the nice surprise of being picked up from the airport. If you're upset by the bus service, the DebConf bus isn't going to be much different, so you should probably make your own plans anyway. Either way, list yourself on the Arrivals/Departures wiki pages, as that might allow people to car-share if you've already decided on hiring a car from sarajevo, say. BTW Good luck -- if you find a route that works, _please_ update the http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/Travel-Arriving page -- if on the other hand you lose the will to live (as I did) and realise that the information that you needed to decide that searching for alternatives was hopeless is either missing or hidden on the wiki page, perhaps you can improve on what's there so that those who come after you are better informed. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND pgpddQe0DrW78.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
Yes, adding yourself to that page would be great for anyone who would like to be picked up. Sent using Android (Nexus S) On May 16, 2011 11:17 AM, "Philip Hands" wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2011 09:31:00 +0100, Ian Campbell wrote: >> On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 00:10 +0200, Adnan Hodzic wrote: >> > +50 if there is more then 1 guy as I just said, I don't know how much >> > it makes sense to send a whole shuttle for only one guy. >> >> Thanks for the reply, I quite understand your point of view. I'll make >> my own arrangements. > > Hi Ian, > > You are aware of the fact that the public bus service runs every couple > of hours from Zagreb to Banja Luka, I take it? > > I'd say that that fact makes the presence or otherwise of a DebConf > shuttle largely irrelevant -- if you're OK with the normal bus service, > and you're at a busy time, you'll get the nice surprise of being picked > up from the airport. If you're upset by the bus service, the DebConf > bus isn't going to be much different, so you should probably make your > own plans anyway. > > Either way, list yourself on the Arrivals/Departures wiki pages, as that > might allow people to car-share if you've already decided on hiring a > car from sarajevo, say. > > BTW Good luck -- if you find a route that works, _please_ update the > > http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/Travel-Arriving > > page -- if on the other hand you lose the will to live (as I did) and > realise that the information that you needed to decide that searching > for alternatives was hopeless is either missing or hidden on the wiki > page, perhaps you can improve on what's there so that those who come > after you are better informed. > > Cheers, Phil. > -- > |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] http://www.hands.com/ > |-| HANDS.COM Ltd. http://www.uk.debian.org/ > |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 09:28:43AM +0100, Ian Campbell wrote: > On Sun, 2011-05-15 at 17:54 +0200, Holger Levsen wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Freitag, 13. Mai 2011, Ian Campbell wrote: > > > Is it expected that there will be shuttles leaving on the Friday? (I'd > > > be taking off at 1750) > > > > I dunno. Adnan? > > > > (And Ian, take off at 1750 means arriving when in Zaghreb?) > > My usual rule of thumb would be to get to the airport 2hrs before, > although I didn't check the airlines T&C yet. IME typical boarding time on ZAG is 30 minutes and this will be in the middle of the tourist season, so 2h sounds good. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness. ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
Hi, On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Philip Hands wrote: > That being the case, how about if we announce it something like this: > > =-=-=-=- > There is a regular public bus service (~every 2hrs) from Zagreb to > Banya Luka, so this is probably the best place to travel via, for both > train and air travellers. > > If that's not good enough for you, feel free to make your own plans, > but note that others have been looking for alternative routes, and > most have concluded that alternatives are not better (Hint: the useful > trains are slower and less frequent than the busses, and the > alternative airports have significantly worse public transport) > > If you insist on making you own arrangements despite this advice, that > is of course your choice, but you might want to read the wiki pages > [Travel-Arriving] that include the information that's been discovered > by those who have already tried -- please update the wiki if you > succeed in finding a good route, and more importantly, fix the wiki so > that it would have stopped you wasting your time once you fail. > > Regardless of what you decide, please add yourself to the > [arrivals/departures] page -- if you're flying into Zagreb, this will > allow us to determine the busy periods, and lay on extra busses -- if > you're going off-piste and doing something like flying elsewhere and > hiring a car, it will allow others to get in touch with you for a car > share, say. > > Obviously, if you're about to book, check for times that are already > busy, and try to make similar arrangements, since that will ensure > that you're in a cluster that will be large enough to justify a bus. > > If you're uncertain, put a provisional entry in the wiki by recording > the flight/train number as "UNBOOKED" as that will allow all the > undecided to settle on big groups (if you do this, remember to update > things when you actually book -- we'll not plan busses on the strength > of unbooked entries) > =-=-=-=- > > Do you think that would help? > > We should perhaps use something a bit better than that wiki page for > recording the arrival/departure times, since it's going to be chaos at > busy times, and someone's bound to screw up and delete half of it while > trying to sort it into chronological order. > > Cheers, Phil. > -- > |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] http://www.hands.com/ > |-| HANDS.COM Ltd. http://www.uk.debian.org/ > |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND > > ___ > Debconf-discuss mailing list > Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org > http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss > > I like this plan so much, i think we should use it! (Adnan?) I am sorry that i couldn't be more involved in this, and it's a shame (for the local team) that somebody not local managed to do this on their own. Thank you Philip! Velimir ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:17:49AM +0100, Philip Hands wrote: > BTW Good luck -- if you find a route that works, _please_ update the > > http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/Travel-Arriving > > page -- if on the other hand you lose the will to live (as I did) and > realise that the information that you needed to decide that searching > for alternatives was hopeless is either missing or hidden on the wiki > page, perhaps you can improve on what's there so that those who come > after you are better informed. :D I re-read the page once again and there's now a bit of duplication in the 'by air' section, because the beginning of that section concentrates on the *all*-air solution. That makes some sort of logical sense, but given all the other information about the combined transport methods, it just doesn't seem like the all-air stuff will interest the most people. I'll go re-section it to put things into a more practical perspective. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness. ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 10:17 +0100, Philip Hands wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2011 09:31:00 +0100, Ian Campbell wrote: > > On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 00:10 +0200, Adnan Hodzic wrote: > > > +50 if there is more then 1 guy as I just said, I don't know how much > > > it makes sense to send a whole shuttle for only one guy. > > > > Thanks for the reply, I quite understand your point of view. I'll make > > my own arrangements. > > Hi Ian, > > You are aware of the fact that the public bus service runs every couple > of hours from Zagreb to Banja Luka, I take it? Yes. The only reason I was considering any other option was that I can save myself a 2+ hour car journey (longer by train) at the UK end if I can fly from Stansted instead of Heathrow, but that means going to Ljubljana instead of Zagreb. I've pretty much decided that saving myself a couple of hours travel in the UK is not worth the complexity/hassle of doing my own thing at the other end. > I'd say that that fact makes the presence or otherwise of a DebConf > shuttle largely irrelevant -- if you're OK with the normal bus service, > and you're at a busy time, you'll get the nice surprise of being picked > up from the airport. If you're upset by the bus service, the DebConf > bus isn't going to be much different, I think this is a very good way to think of it, thanks. Ian. -- Ian Campbell Current Noise: Suffocation - Breeding The Spawn "At least they're ___EXPERIENCED incompetents" ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Accommodation for sponsored registration
Hi, On Samstag, 7. Mai 2011, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > As the conditions regarding our lodging vary strongly from year to > year, I am not sure how much we should rely on previous years' > information... Yup. Every year is different though we try to be consistent over the years. But, definitly each year has changes. > I suggest we should start by accepting for sponsored > accomodation all couples who pledge to do some DebConf work as > volunteers (even if they are not Debian-related in other ways). Yes. "Simple" boy-+girlfriends (and husbands and wifes) don't qualify for DebConf sponsoring - unless they volunteer (and actually do work), but then they are not "simple" SOs anymore, but actual volunteers! \o/ > And > yes, volunteering is a very subjective and hard to measure amount of > effort, but I'd put it as a minimum acceptable line. *nods* > Of course, whoever wants to attend paying their expenses, go > ahead. And of course, if the govt says they will sponsor everybody > staying at the hotel for DebConf, great. But I think this is a good > baseline for accompanying people. *nods* cheers, Holger ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
Ian, If you're going to Ljubljanja you could go directly to Banja Luka with an airplain, Phil did that check that option as well. Adnan Sent using Android (Nexus S) On May 16, 2011 12:07 PM, "Ian Campbell" wrote: > On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 10:17 +0100, Philip Hands wrote: >> On Mon, 16 May 2011 09:31:00 +0100, Ian Campbell wrote: >> > On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 00:10 +0200, Adnan Hodzic wrote: >> > > +50 if there is more then 1 guy as I just said, I don't know how much >> > > it makes sense to send a whole shuttle for only one guy. >> > >> > Thanks for the reply, I quite understand your point of view. I'll make >> > my own arrangements. >> >> Hi Ian, >> >> You are aware of the fact that the public bus service runs every couple >> of hours from Zagreb to Banja Luka, I take it? > > Yes. The only reason I was considering any other option was that I can > save myself a 2+ hour car journey (longer by train) at the UK end if I > can fly from Stansted instead of Heathrow, but that means going to > Ljubljana instead of Zagreb. > > I've pretty much decided that saving myself a couple of hours travel in > the UK is not worth the complexity/hassle of doing my own thing at the > other end. > >> I'd say that that fact makes the presence or otherwise of a DebConf >> shuttle largely irrelevant -- if you're OK with the normal bus service, >> and you're at a busy time, you'll get the nice surprise of being picked >> up from the airport. If you're upset by the bus service, the DebConf >> bus isn't going to be much different, > > I think this is a very good way to think of it, thanks. > > Ian. > -- > Ian Campbell > Current Noise: Suffocation - Breeding The Spawn > > "At least they're ___ EXPERIENCED incompetents" > > ___ > Debconf-discuss mailing list > Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org > http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 12:26 +0200, Adnan Hodzic wrote: > Ian, > > If you're going to Ljubljanja you could go directly to Banja Luka with > an airplain, Phil did that check that option as well. Thanks. I checked that option, but the available flights from Stansted land just after the Banja Luka flight departs (and vice versa going home). > > Adnan > > Sent using Android (Nexus S) > > On May 16, 2011 12:07 PM, "Ian Campbell" wrote: > > On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 10:17 +0100, Philip Hands wrote: > >> On Mon, 16 May 2011 09:31:00 +0100, Ian Campbell > wrote: > >> > On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 00:10 +0200, Adnan Hodzic wrote: > >> > > +50 if there is more then 1 guy as I just said, I don't know > how much > >> > > it makes sense to send a whole shuttle for only one guy. > >> > > >> > Thanks for the reply, I quite understand your point of view. I'll > make > >> > my own arrangements. > >> > >> Hi Ian, > >> > >> You are aware of the fact that the public bus service runs every > couple > >> of hours from Zagreb to Banja Luka, I take it? > > > > Yes. The only reason I was considering any other option was that I > can > > save myself a 2+ hour car journey (longer by train) at the UK end if > I > > can fly from Stansted instead of Heathrow, but that means going to > > Ljubljana instead of Zagreb. > > > > I've pretty much decided that saving myself a couple of hours travel > in > > the UK is not worth the complexity/hassle of doing my own thing at > the > > other end. > > > >> I'd say that that fact makes the presence or otherwise of a DebConf > >> shuttle largely irrelevant -- if you're OK with the normal bus > service, > >> and you're at a busy time, you'll get the nice surprise of being > picked > >> up from the airport. If you're upset by the bus service, the > DebConf > >> bus isn't going to be much different, > > > > I think this is a very good way to think of it, thanks. > > > > Ian. > > -- > > Ian Campbell > > Current Noise: Suffocation - Breeding The Spawn > > > > "At least they're ___ EXPERIENCED incompetents" > > > > ___ > > Debconf-discuss mailing list > > Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org > > http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss > -- Ian Campbell Current Noise: Crowbar - Command of Myself "Send lawyers, guns and money..." -- Lyrics from a Warren Zevon song ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
On Mon, 16 May 2011 11:07:26 +0100, Ian Campbell wrote: ... > Yes. The only reason I was considering any other option was that I can > save myself a 2+ hour car journey (longer by train) at the UK end if I > can fly from Stansted instead of Heathrow, but that means going to > Ljubljana instead of Zagreb. Ah, OK -- Just in case you'd not noticed, Adira Air have fairly cheap flights from there (althogh I'm guessing you'd miss a connection, and have to overnight) https://www.adria.si/en/booking.cp2 I only mention it because you were on about car hire. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 13:36 +0100, Philip Hands wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2011 11:07:26 +0100, Ian Campbell wrote: > ... > > Yes. The only reason I was considering any other option was that I can > > save myself a 2+ hour car journey (longer by train) at the UK end if I > > can fly from Stansted instead of Heathrow, but that means going to > > Ljubljana instead of Zagreb. > > Ah, OK -- Just in case you'd not noticed, Adira Air have fairly cheap > flights from there (althogh I'm guessing you'd miss a connection, and > have to overnight) > > https://www.adria.si/en/booking.cp2 > > I only mention it because you were on about car hire. Thanks. I did check it out and you're right that the connections don't quite add up. Ian. -- Ian Campbell Current Noise: Crowbar - Dream Weaver May's Law: The quality of correlation is inversly proportional to the density of control. (The fewer the data points, the smoother the curves.) ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
Philip Hands writes ("Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka"):
> I'd say that that fact makes the presence or otherwise of a DebConf
> shuttle largely irrelevant -- if you're OK with the normal bus service,
> and you're at a busy time, you'll get the nice surprise of being picked
> up from the airport. If you're upset by the bus service, the DebConf
> bus isn't going to be much different, so you should probably make your
> own plans anyway.
One difficulty with planning the use of a local bus is that a foreign
traveller may not know how to use them. They may not be able to find
how and where to buy a ticket; how much the ticket will cost; what
means of payment might be accepted (since Croatia uses different
currency). They might not find where the bus departs from, and as a
result might miss it; they might not know when to get off the bus
either. They won't know whether it is possible to buy a ticket and
take the bus without speaking any local languages. (Some of these
problems exist to a certain extent with trains too, but buses are
generally harder.)
Not everyone who we want at Debconf is a seasoned international
traveller, confident and experienced at dealing with unfamiliar
transport systems, navigating and staying in unfamiliar cities, and
organising everything themselves.
I would have therefore hoped that the Debconf local team would have
provided comprehensive information, answering these kinds of
questions.
However, I'm sorry to say, that this has not been the case.
General questions along the lines of "how do we get from Zagreb" have
been answered with "don't worry, we will lay on a shuttle bus" (and
now we find that for some people there won't, as might be expected).
Specific questions like "are there buses from Banja Luka to Okucani on
such and such a date and such and such a time" have gone unanswered.
> -- if on the other hand you lose the will to live (as I did) and
> realise that the information that you needed to decide that searching
> for alternatives was hopeless is either missing or hidden on the wiki
> page, perhaps you can improve on what's there so that those who come
> after you are better informed.
Most of the information we need about local travel cannot be found on
the Internet in general, and the wiki is badly organised and not
particularly authoritative.
What we need is a more comprehensive supply of instructions, and
answers to these questions, from the local team. What it should have
said is:
For travellers arriving by train:
Trains run between Zagreb and Sarajevo, calling at Banja Luka, but
are quite slow, and there are only two trains a day in each
direction. The times can be found . Tickets need to be
bought at the departure station in ; booking in advance is not needed.
Buses are available between Banja Luka and Zagreb, between Banja Luka and Okucani. The times are
. Tickets can be purchased and drivers
will . etc. etc. etc.
For travellers arriving by air:
We recommend flying to Zagreb and taking a bus to Banja Luka. The
last bus departs Banja Luka at so if
you are arriving after then, you should book a hotel in Zagreb. We
recommend . The airport
shuttle bus will ;
directions from the hotel to the bus to Banja Luka .
See above for information about how to use the bus to get from
Zagreb to Sarajevo.
We will be laying on some shuttle buses from Zagreb; their times
have yet to be determined. If you let us know your flight landing
time, or train arrival time in Zagreb, along with your email
address, we may be able to save you the cost and effort of the local
bus. But for now assume that you will be taking the local bus as
described above.
And when questions were asked here we should have not had replies of
the form "don't worry". We should have had replies of the form
"Thanks for your question. I have updated the wiki at with
the answer; please let me know if there's anything else you need".
Ideally we would have had this two months ago.
Ian.
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Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
Hi Ian,
On Montag, 16. Mai 2011, Ian Jackson wrote:
> I would have therefore hoped that the Debconf local team would have
> provided comprehensive information, answering these kinds of
> questions.
/me too.
> However, I'm sorry to say, that this has not been the case.
Yeah :(
> Specific questions like "are there buses from Banja Luka to Okucani on
> such and such a date and such and such a time" have gone unanswered.
>
> Most of the information we need about local travel cannot be found on
> the Internet in general, and the wiki is badly organised and not
> particularly authoritative.
True.
> And when questions were asked here we should have not had replies of
> the form "don't worry". We should have had replies of the form
> "Thanks for your question. I have updated the wiki at with
> the answer; please let me know if there's anything else you need".
Amen.
> Ideally we would have had this two months ago.
Yes.
It sucks, I know, and I'm sorry for it. (Even though I dont consider myself
responsible for it.) I tried to make the localteam give better answers, but
after trying several times, I dunno what else I can do.
(For example) Today we had a quite useless discussion about maps on the irc
channel. Useless, because we had the exact same discussion we had today
already some months ago. With the same result. ("We cannot use nonfree maps".)
So again, we've running in stupid circles again, while important stuff still
hasnt been done. (ie instead of doing those maps it would be way more
important to finalize those busses as Phil and others have suggested. Or we
could prepare the travel+sponsorship decissions, which we'll need to make in
three days)
It sucks. Plain and simple.
I've even stopped complaining (or milder, to point out such problems), as its
also useless and a waste of my time.
I'm sorry. If the localteam doesnt do its jobs properly, organizing debconf is
really really hard.
OTOH, I'm still sure DebConf11 will happen and will be a success. I'm also
sure we will have more suffering and useless work/action and discussions.
("Don't worry, we'll only have slights problems.")
I'm not so sure how to effectivly prevent that in the future and frankly and
as said, I dont think we can fix this for DebConf11 anymore. WYSIWYG.
cheers,
Holger
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Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 05:08:37PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: [...] > Ideally we would have had this two months ago. I really have no idea how the DebConf location selection process works, but surely someone could have noticed that these questions aren't easily answerable in the first place, before the location was selected, which was a fair bit earlier than two months ago if I recall correctly? I mean, seriously, did nobody spend a bit of time clicking around, trying to book a dozen simple rides to the place from various places all on a specific date? If not, well then, why are we even talking about this? :) I googled the process now and found: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/LocationCheckList#Choice_of_city_.2F_town_.2F_whatever Matters of electronics purchase and smoking are listed as more important than proximity to air transport. Also at http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/PriorityList travel logistics is on the penultimate place. So, things are actually a lot better compared to these inferior prerequisites? :| -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness. ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
Hello Josip. We understand your concerns but from our perspective things doesn't look so disorganized. Yes there is still a lot of missing points but at least there are well defined general guidelines about travel. Zagreb --> Banja Luka are very well connected with buses so even if you come to Zagreb without any preparation, you would not have any difficulty comming to Banja Luka. (Although i believe you will have all necessary guidelines on time.) Just please don't make panic. Also, today Adnan presented DebConf11 organization at ODRS/CLUC event in Zagreb (www.dorscluc.org) and invited more more people to join travel team and help with those issues in case you are coming via Zagreb. People ware very interested in DebConf11 today so i have no doubt there will be some volunteers from Zagreb helping about this issue. best regards. On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Josip Rodin wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 05:08:37PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: > [...] > > Ideally we would have had this two months ago. > > I really have no idea how the DebConf location selection process works, > but surely someone could have noticed that these questions aren't easily > answerable in the first place, before the location was selected, which was > a fair bit earlier th an two months ago if I recall correctly? I mean, > seriously, did nobody spend a bit of time clicking around, trying to book > a dozen simple rides to the place from various places all on a specific > date? If not, well then, why are we even talking about this? :) > > I googled the process now and found: > > http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/LocationCheckList#Choice_of_city_.2F_town_.2F_whatever > Matters of electronics purchase and smoking are listed as more important > than proximity to air transport. > Also at http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/PriorityList travel logistics is on > the > penultimate place. So, things are actually a lot better compared to these > inferior prerequisites? :| > > -- > 2. That which causes joy or happiness. > ___ > Debconf-discuss mailing list > Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org > http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss > ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Arrival date for main conference
* Velimir Iveljic [Mit Mai 11, 2011 at 03:52:59 +0200]: > The arrival date is on the 24th, as it's written on > http://debconf11.debconf.org/dates.xhtml. > If you want to come on 23rd you will need to submit a work plan for that day. Because I and some other persons I know are in the same situation I just tried to do exactly that. If I choose "I have a specific work plan for DebCamp" and select 2011-07-23 as arrival date Pentabarf complains with: | 2011-07-23" - (this date is after DebCamp ends, and you said you | will attend DebCamp) So what are people planing to arrive on 23rd (to have meetings at DebCamp) supposed to do, to get room/food sponsoring for this day? thanks && regards, -mika- signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
Please, don't send HTML e-mail... On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:58:39PM -0500, vedran wrote: > Hello Josip. > > We understand your concerns but from our perspective things doesn't look > so disorganized. Yes there is still a lot of missing points but at least > there are well defined general guidelines about travel. Zagreb --> Banja > Luka are very well connected with buses so even if you come to Zagreb > without any preparation, you would not have any difficulty comming to Banja > Luka. (Although i believe you will have all necessary guidelines on > time.) Just please don't make panic. There's no panic, we'll just quietly miss out on people who will see that their travel options are not too good or are undefined. Mind, this isn't really a precedent - I myself didn't go to that remote Spanish place a couple of years ago because I wasn't happy with their travel logistics, even if it was relatively close. > Also, today Adnan presented DebConf11 organization at ODRS/CLUC event in > Zagreb (www.dorscluc.org) and invited more more people to join travel team > and help with those issues in case you are coming via Zagreb. People ware > very interested in DebConf11 today so i have no doubt there will be some > volunteers from Zagreb helping about this issue. See, no, the trick is to let all those foreigners feel comfortable enough to take care of themselves. Even if you had people literally taking the time and effort to drive individual passengers from one location to another, that still doesn't instill confidence about the whole trip in the mind of a potential traveller, it can even detract from it - "awfully nice of those people to drive me, but does that mean it's not safe for me to go at it alone? what happens if something goes wrong?". So, for example, in the case of the silly Okucani train layover issue, what we need is simply someone who would go and find out basic information - e.g. which buses stop at which exact place over there, how far is the bus stop from the train stop, does the bus schedule e.g. depend on the carrier or even the particular line, is the ticket paid on a station or in the vehicle, etc - and then write these things down in English for everyone else to see. Even if the answer to the very first question in the above list is negative and we have to drop that route from the itinerary, that would actually be much better than the current situation where it's left undefined for a fair bit of time. It's that uncertainty that raises eyebrows. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness. ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Arrival date for main conference
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Velimir Iveljic wrote: > Hi Jonathan, > > The arrival date is on the 24th, as it's written on > http://debconf11.debconf.org/dates.xhtml. > If you want to come on 23rd you will need to submit a work plan for that day. And what about if you arrive late on 23rd so that you are there on time for being there on 24th? Or should I just book somewhere to stay in Zagreb that night and travel to Banja Luka on the 24th? Thanks, Daniel > On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote: >> I got almost as far as booking my flights and then noticed an inconsistency >> in the calendar compared to 2010 and 2011. >> >> Previously, the Debconf arrival date was on DebConf Day -1; that is, in >> 2010 it was Saturday 31st July and Debian Day was on the Sunday. That was >> consistent with 2009 also (I didn't look further back than that). >> >> The arrival date was also the first day of sponsored room and food. >> >> For 2011 the arrival day isn't clearly marked on the calendar [1] and the >> first day of sponsored room and food appears to be on Debian Day, Sunday >> 24th July. >> >> Therefore, should I infer that the arrival day this year should be Sunday >> 24th July and not Saturday 23rd July? >> >> 1: http://debconf11.debconf.org/dates.xhtml >> >> -- >> Jonathan Wiltshire j...@debian.org >> Debian Developer http://people.debian.org/~jmw >> >> 4096R: 0xD3524C51 / 0A55 B7C5 1223 3942 86EC 74C3 5394 479D D352 4C51 >> >> ___ >> Debconf-discuss mailing list >> Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org >> http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss >> >> > ___ > Debconf-discuss mailing list > Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org > http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss > ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Zagreb <--> Banja Luka
+++ Holger Levsen [2011-05-16 18:38 +0200]:
> (For example) Today we had a quite useless discussion about maps on the irc
> channel. Useless, because we had the exact same discussion we had today
> already some months ago. With the same result. ("We cannot use nonfree maps".)
I don't understand the issue here: the OSM maps of Bosnia seem
pretty good - certainly much better than the proprietary maps
(google/teleatlas is uselss, michelin/navteq is not very detailed), so
we can (and obviously should) use the good (in both senses) maps.
Wookey
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