date:20011021

On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 08:40 PM, Jon Beets wrote:

> http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml
>
>

Try to keep up, will you.

We discussed this exact article and event in a dozen posts a few days 
ago.

--Tim May
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
--Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago

New kind of FUD

2001-10-21 Thread mattd


"Now HERE is where you need that microwave. "
Thanks sandy,I dont know what we'd do without you. Whats the difference 
between anal sex and a microwave?
Only one browns your meat.

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

2001-10-21 Thread Steve Furlong


Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> Hmm, one of these would be handy.
> http://www.eltroncards.com/printers/p520.htm

Yah, but it comes with only Windows drivers!

No prices given, either. That's a bad sign.

-- 
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato

Sorry about the snowflakes + swami dust.(Was RE: Assault Donuts)

2001-10-21 Thread Xeni Jardin


> My Norcal culture-informant has forwarded
> a picture of a sign from a 
> bathroom which reads in red serif:
>
> "Due to recent world events,
> please clean up all body powder
> before leaving the locker room"

Other than the fact that a number of the scares are very real, the whole thing
keeps feeling more and more like a bad Monty Python episode. Friday's British
Medical Journal, cited in another AP anthrax roundup story below, describes the
free-floating bioterror anxiety as "mass sociogenic illness." As Ken Alibek
testified before the House this week, the primary desired effect is
psychological disruption, not body count...

<<...An Australian lawmaker's office was sealed off amid confusion over ashes
from a Hindu temple, and American Express apologized for sending plastic
snowflakes to Swedish customers as anthrax scares multiplied worldwide on
Friday

Parliament security officers in Australia's New South Wales state sealed off the
office of a lawmaker after a worker found a package full of ashes postmarked
from the ``Wandering Swamy of Arunchala Hills.''

The package, the lawmaker later explained, was holy ash from a swami he met
during a recent trip to India.

American Express Co. said Friday it will send letters of apology to some 40,000
Swedish card holders who received a promotional Christmas mailing containing an
envelope with plastic snowflakes marked ``spread these out.'' The mailing
prompted angry phone calls.

``We understand that people are upset,'' said spokeswoman Gunnel Engberg. ``They
complained that the timing was inadequate, not that it was dangerous in any
way.'' >>

Attention Business O w n e r!!

2001-10-21 Thread noel2552


ATTENTION 
BUSINESS OWNER OR OPERATOR   s14}

>From time to time, most companies experience a cash flow problem.   
These problems can range from temporary cash crunches with the inability 
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Please fill out this form and fax to 1-775-599-3416. 
If this line is busy, please try faxing to 1-775-599-3092.


Name: _


Company: __


Phone Number: __


Best Time to Call: 













To be taken from our list please email
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with off in the sub ject line.

IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps (fwd)




-- Eugen* Leitl http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204/";>leitl
__
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 06:07:48 -0400
From: David Farber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps


>
>From: Monty Solomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps
>
>
>October 18, 2001
>Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps
>By  Max Smetannikov
>
>Expect the FBI to expand its Internet wiretapping program, says a
>source familiar with the plan.
>
>Stewart Baker, a partner with law firm Steptoe & Johnson, is a former
>general counsel to the National Security Agency. He says the FBI has
>spent the last two years developing a new surveillance architecture
>that would concentrate Internet traffic in several key locations
>where all packets, not just e-mail, could be wiretapped. It is now
>planning to begin implementing this architecture using the powers it
>has under existing wiretapping laws.
>
>http://www.interactiveweek.com/article/0,3658,s%253D605%2526a%253D16678,00.asp


For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/

IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps (fwd)

2001-10-21 Thread mikecabot


The info in the Interactive Week article is basically the same info 
from the National Journal article previously posted here, which leads 
me to suspect that Baker is simply repeating the same rumor to 
everyone who'll write about it.

But. it is interesting that they say "router manufacturers" here. 

I believe that what Baker "heard" was simply the FBI going out to 
people like Cisco and some of the larger network providers and people 
responsible for provisioning NAPs and saying "we want you to 
implement the additions to IPSEC that the IETF refused to implement".

(For background, the FBI, DOJ, DoD -- the "usual suspects" -- had 
presented a series of recommendations to the IETF last year that 
would create "packet accounting" features in IPSEC protocols and 
future IP protocols they were rejected by the IETF, which stated 
at the time that the idea of creating built-in exploits to a protocol 
designed for security was counterintuitive. See http://www.ietf.org 
for more info.)

Now, it is entirely possible that given the public pressure arising 
from the 9-11 attacks, individual manufacturers (read" "Cisco") might 
bow to such pressure, and build-in some of these features into future 
products AND into future software builds for existing products.

So, I think this is what Baker "heard" -- not that the FBI has any 
such system in place or would have one anytime soon... rather, that 
the FBI will re-present these proposals one-on-one with Cisco and a 
few  network providers, and in effect, get the impact of their 
previously-rejected proposals implemented to cover maybe as much as 
80% or more of the traffic in the domestic US. And besides access to 
the majority of USA packet traffic, they would have access to some 
part of international traffic too... it's beyong the scope of this 
email, but keep in mind that many non-USA NAPs are really connected 
to one another VIA the USA. in effect, bug the USA NAPs, and you 
get access to almost all the traffic from Pacific Rim countries like 
Japan, Australia, etc. and you get access to small parts of Western 
Europe also, not to mention parts of Africa and the Middle East that 
uplink via satellite instead of a wired connection.

An enterprising reporter might make an interesting article out of 
trying to track down exactly what parts of the IETF proposal the FBI 
wants (Declan?) and someone could post copies of the draft proposal 
as first released at ietf.org (JYA?). But I digress :)


> Original Message from Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:14:50  0200 (MET DST):> 
> 
> 
> -- Eugen* Leitl leitl
> __
> ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
> 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 06:07:48 -0400
> From: David Farber 
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps
> 
> 
> >
> >From: Monty Solomon 
> >Subject: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps
> >
> >
> >October 18, 2001
> >Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps
> >By  Max Smetannikov
> >
> >Expect the FBI to expand its Internet wiretapping program, says a
> >source familiar with the plan.
> >
> >Stewart Baker, a partner with law firm Steptoe & Johnson, is a 
former
> >general counsel to the National Security Agency. He says the FBI 
has
> >spent the last two years developing a new surveillance architecture
> >that would concentrate Internet traffic in several key locations
> >where all packets, not just e-mail, could be wiretapped. It is now
> >planning to begin implementing this architecture using the powers 
it
> >has under existing wiretapping laws.
> >
> >http://www.interactiveweek.com/article/0,3658,s%3D605%26a%
253D16678,00.asp
> 
> 
> For archives see:
> http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/
> 
> 
> 
> 

___
WANT YOUR OWN FREE AND SECURE WEB EMAIL ADDRESS?

Visit http://www.fastcircle.com

Re: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps (fwd)

2001-10-21 Thread Harmon Seaver


   All the more reason to use Linux routers and firewalls.
Especially if Cisco pulls a Larry Ellison.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

Re: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps (fwd)



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>All the more reason to use Linux routers and firewalls.
> Especially if Cisco pulls a Larry Ellison.

Nope, Plan 9.

http://plan9.bell-labs.com


 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Large candy purchases investigated by FBI


http://www.bergen.com/news/candy1200110207.htm
-- 

 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Why Plan-9?

2001-10-21 Thread Sunder



Why Plan-9?  I'd say go with OpenBSD. :)  Built in crypto, built in
firewall, secure on installation without you needing to tweak stuff.  Hell
you can even tell it to encrypt swap pages.


--Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sunder.net 

On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> >All the more reason to use Linux routers and firewalls.
> > Especially if Cisco pulls a Larry Ellison.
> 
> Nope, Plan 9.
> 
> http://plan9.bell-labs.com

Re: Why Plan-9?



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Sunder wrote:
 
> Why Plan-9?  I'd say go with OpenBSD. :)  Built in crypto, built in
> firewall,

 You mean there are OS'es that don't?

> secure on installation without you needing to tweak stuff.

 You mean all(!) OS'es don't do this already?

> Hell you can even tell it to encrypt swap pages.

 You mean all OS'es don't allow you to mount individual filesystems
through an encryption layer?

 - Authored by same Bell-Labs crew that wrote Unix in the first place.
   Plan 9 was specifically designed to 'fix' the problems of Unix. It
   of course has its own problems. There is active support by the
   authors currently.

 - Has had many years of production use internal to Bell - Labs.

 - Open Source, no license required to build and distribute your own
   version.

 - Fully distributed in both process and file space

 - Has a unique three (3) kernel approach; I/O - Auth, File, Process

 - No 'root' user.

 - Supports IPv6 (default), IPv4, and IL (it's customer to Plan 9).

 - Filesystem is fully transitive, everything is treated like a file.
   This creates some unique opportunities to make publicly shared but
   privately maintaned resource pools. Hangar 18 is an attempt to do
   just this.

 - The filesystem is structured and featured in such a way that RDBMS
   sorts of solutions are moot. These functions are built into the
   filesystem itself (though not through SQL compliance).

 - Encryption (currently DES, needs fixing) built right in.

 - Doesn't use passwords, Instead it uses tickets (ie certificates).

 - Anonymity features with respect to both process and file space are
   not going to be hard to build in, Pike estimated at one points about
   150 lines of rc besides the actual crypto algorithm.

 - Global mobile log-in out of the box.

 - Has a wickedly new GUI.

 - Supports Inferno (run-time included) so that you can access one of the
   leading 'Internet Appliance' work environments. Plan 9 isn't real-time,
   but Inferno is. (It makes my Lego Mindstorm look like a directory tree, 
   makes programming real-time hardware operations rather easy)

http://plan.bell-labs.com

Another Open Source OS to look at for inspiration is unununium. It is a
kernel-less OS, everything is a module that can be loaded in/out at
run time as required. Has some very interesting applications with respect
to distributed computing. There is a working implimentation available from
Source Forge.


 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: Explosives found at Greyhound bus terminal

On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Greg Newby wrote:

> For the interested, here's a great recipe for composition 4
> explosives: http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/tech/c4.html

Since some of the chemicals cited in above recipe are not so easily
obtainable, so feel free to substitute them by powdered RDX and a
plasticizer in a 91:9 ratio. A good plasticizer can be made from
polyisobutylene, motor oil, and Di(2-ethylhexyl) sebaceate.

Re: Why Plan-9?

2001-10-21 Thread Steve Furlong


Sunder wrote:
> 
> Why Plan-9?  I'd say go with OpenBSD. :)  Built in crypto, built in
> firewall, secure on installation without you needing to tweak stuff.  Hell
> you can even tell it to encrypt swap pages.

I'd really like to use OBSD for my always-on server, but there are a few
shortcomings.

- New Java stuff: I need to have Java servlets, JSP, and all that rot
available from my web site, and last time I tried, a few months ago, the
new Java stuff just wasn't there yet. Eighty-five step installation
procedure which either didn't work quite right or was too much for my
tiny brain. (The procedure was actually for FBSD, but it didn't work
there, either, so the chances of getting it working on OBSD were
negligible.)

- Encrypted file systems: I want my main server to have TCFS or
equivalent, so if the machine is seized the feebs would see a tiny boot
partition and a large, strongly-encrypted main partition. I tried a few
encrypted file systems a while back, and the couple I found for OBSD
weren't there yet, either; they typically dumped core when I tried to
use them. (I see that Dr Evil posted a message on this subject last May
on a list archived at Geocrawler, so I guess the shortcoming hasn't been
fixed since I last looked at it in depth.)

(Yes, in theory I can work on either of these myself, but in practice
I'm already involved in two free projects and just can't spread any
thinner.)

Out-of-the-box OBSD seems less crackable than out-of-the-box Linux and
I'd like to use it, but it just doesn't have the two features I really
want. For now, I'll take my chances on securing my Linux server as best
I can.

-- 
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato

Re: CDR: Re: Why Plan-9?



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Steve Furlong wrote:

> - Encrypted file systems: I want my main server to have TCFS or
> equivalent, so if the machine is seized the feebs would see a tiny boot
> partition and a large, strongly-encrypted main partition. I tried a few
> encrypted file systems a while back, and the couple I found for OBSD
> weren't there yet, either; they typically dumped core when I tried to
> use them. (I see that Dr Evil posted a message on this subject last May
> on a list archived at Geocrawler, so I guess the shortcoming hasn't been
> fixed since I last looked at it in depth.)

You can do this in Plan 9 and also spread the file around it's pieces
hither and yon...


 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

CIA Politics of Assassination

2001-10-21 Thread Khoder bin Hakkin


Sunday October 21 8:48 AM ET

CIA Reportedly Gets Authority to
Hunt Down Bin Laden

   WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President
   Bush (news - web sites) last month
   gave the CIA (news - web sites) it
   broadest authority yet to conduct lethal
   covert action against Osama bin Laden
   (news - web sites) and his al Qaeda
   network, The Washington Post
   reported in its Sunday edition.

The newspaper, quoting unidentified senior government
officials, said Bush signed an order, known as an
intelligence finding, that directed the CIA to undertake to
sweeping and deadly covert action against bin Laden and his
network.

The finding specifically called for the destruction of bin
Laden and al Qaeda, who are the prime suspects in the
Sept. 11 attacks on New York and Washington, the Post
said.

``The gloves are off. The president has given the agency the
green light to do whatever is necessary. Lethal operations
that were unthinkable pre-Sept. 11 are now underway,'' the
newspaper quoted a senior official as saying.

The finding also gave the CIA an additional $1 billion to
apply toward its anti-terror campaign, most of which will
fund covert action aimed at taking out bin Laden's
communications, security apparatus and infrastructure, the
Post said.

The operations were to include a high degree of
coordination between the CIA and military units, to give
Bush the power to rapidly dispatch troops based on the
newest and best information from the intelligence agency.

Soon after the attacks, in which hijackers crashed
commercial airliners into the twin towers of the World
Trade Center and the Pentagon (news - web sites), Bush
said bin Laden was ``wanted dead or alive.''

Though all U.S. presidents since Gerald Ford have signed
an executive order prohibiting the CIA or other agencies
from getting involved in political assassinations, there is
agreement among some CIA and White House lawyers that
the ban does not apply in time of war, the newspaper said.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011021/ts/attack_cia_binladen_dc_1.html

Re: Why Plan-9?

2001-10-21 Thread Morten Liebach


On 21, Oct, 2001 at 11:43:12AM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> Sunder wrote:
> > 
> > Why Plan-9?  I'd say go with OpenBSD. :)  Built in crypto, built in
> > firewall, secure on installation without you needing to tweak stuff.  Hell
> > you can even tell it to encrypt swap pages.
> 
> I'd really like to use OBSD for my always-on server, but there are a few
> shortcomings.
> 
> - New Java stuff: I need to have Java servlets, JSP, and all that rot
> available from my web site, and last time I tried, a few months ago, the
> new Java stuff just wasn't there yet. Eighty-five step installation
> procedure which either didn't work quite right or was too much for my
> tiny brain. (The procedure was actually for FBSD, but it didn't work
> there, either, so the chances of getting it working on OBSD were
> negligible.)

In 3.0 (out around Dec. 1st) you have jakarta-tomcat and jserv ports
that might be what you need. I don't use it myself though, so I don't
know how well it works, or how easy it is to configure.
 
> - Encrypted file systems: I want my main server to have TCFS or

I think Linux is better at this.

What about www.rubberhose.org? Works best on linux it seems.

I'll play around with it sometime during the next two weeks when I get
the new SuSE Linux.

Plan 9 looks really, really cool too, though. ;-)

Have a nice day
 Morten

-- 
Morten Liebach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
PGP-key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xD796A4EB
https://pc89225.stofanet.dk/ || http://pc89225.stofanet.dk/

Re: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps (fwd)

On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>All the more reason to use Linux routers and firewalls.
> Especially if Cisco pulls a Larry Ellison.
> 
> --
> Harmon Seaver, MLIS

That's fine and dandy for ds1's, and maybe even enough for the majority of
fractional ds3 customers, but how are you going to apply this to people
with oc12 handoffs?  Even oc3 handoffs are going to be *really* difficult
boxes to build using COTS/PC technology.

 -- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

IP: "U.S. On Verge of 'Electronic Martial Law' (fwd)




-- Eugen* Leitl http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204/";>leitl
__
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:39:42 -0400
From: David Farber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: IP: "U.S. On Verge of 'Electronic Martial Law'

"U.S. On Verge of 'Electronic Martial Law'--Researcher"
Newsbytes (10/15/01); Featherly, Kevin

The United States is unduly clamping down on the Internet in order to root
out terrorist activities online, argues University of Illinois professor
Heidi Brush, who says the federal government would do better to rethink the
conceptual framework of U.S. communications instead. She spoke at the
recent Internet Research 2.0 gathering for the Association of Internet
Researchers. Although offering no concrete fixes to the problem, Professor
Brush painted a grim picture of "Internet martial law" being imposed in a
vain attempt to capture distributed terrorist groups. Terrorists' style of
"Net war," a term coined earlier by experts at the RAND policy think tank,
would prove elusive to counter by the lumbering centralized government, she
said.

http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/171130.html


For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/

Re: New kind of FUD

2001-10-21 Thread baptista


On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, mattd wrote:

> "Now HERE is where you need that microwave. "
> Thanks sandy,I dont know what we'd do without you. Whats the difference 
> between anal sex and a microwave?
> Only one browns your meat.

which one?

-- 
The dot.GOD Registry, Limited

http://www.dot-god.com/

Re: VAABC - Fake IDs

2001-10-21 Thread David Honig

At 10:17 PM 10/20/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>http://www.abc.state.va.us/Education/fakeid/fakeid.htm
>-- 

"Offense of moral turpitude or a
conviction of possessing,
manufacturing, using or selling fake IDs
will appear on your permanent criminal
record. "

Sounds like something you'd tell children.

Moral Turpitude ---see "Welcome to the United States"
by Frank Zappa on the Yellow Shark album.

Do any of the following apply to you?

Re: Read a book and get banned from an airline....

2001-10-21 Thread Jon Beets


Sorry I was gone and the mail server dropped some of my email..

Jon Beets


- Original Message - 
From: "Tim May" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Read a book and get banned from an airline


> On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 08:40 PM, Jon Beets wrote:
> 
> > http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml
> >
> >
> 
> Try to keep up, will you.
> 
> We discussed this exact article and event in a dozen posts a few days 
> ago.
> 
> 
> --Tim May
> "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
> have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
> make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
> --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

2001-10-21 Thread Roy M. Silvernail

On 20 Oct 2001, at 22:09, Dr. Evil wrote:

> Carry your passport, which doesn't have a mag strip
> (last time I checked).  

My US passport does have a magstrip.  It's embedded in the front 
cover, and must be read by a special device.  I've seen it scanned 
only once, when leaving Montreal to return home.  (point being, a 
driver's licence reader can't read passport magstrips)

At least one club in Minneapolis has a prominent sign stating they 
will not accept a US passport as ID unless it's accompanied by a 
"yellow slip", that being the document indicating that the person 
has applied for a state-issued ID card.  I've never taken the time to 
ask the reasoning behind this policy.

> > Do different states use different formats for the data on the
> > magstrip?
> 
> Do all states even have magstrips?

It's probably reasonable to assume the formats differ.  I haven't yet 
had the time to build up a magstripe reader and check mine, but 
Minnesota also puts a high-density barcode on the front of the 
license.  I have read that out, and it's name, address, DOB, licence 
class, a couple of fields I can't figure out and a final field that says 
"20 EXTRA BYTES HERE".  (yes, really)
--
   Roy M. Silvernail [ ] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Key 0x1AF39331 :  71D5 2EA2 4C27 D569  D96B BD40 D926 C05E
 Key available from [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I charge to process unsolicited commercial email

assasinating larry (the movie)

On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, mattd wrote:

> Matt: AP is not yet possible. Do your homework. There is a long road 
> between theory and reality, and it is littered with the corpses of people 
> who couldn't tell the difference. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson
> 
> You have no idea how glad I am to here that.Jim and carl may also be 
> suprised.

No, I don't think they'd be at all surprised: you were likely the first
:-D

> Now if you and sandy sanfort supply
> me with your meatspace adress Ill know where to send a defence subpoena.

I accept legal process at POB 4579, Fairview Heights, IL. 62208.

> The 
> victoria police seem to be dead ignorant.
> I know its not yet possible,thats why I used it in my online humour 
> column,now Im trapped in a kafka novel,HELP!

You aren't the only one trapped in that novel, although you may be the
only one here who didn't realize it.

I just _knew_ I was going to regret answering him...

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Re: used lab equiptment

On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> A specialized ultrasonic device is not required to produce micron fine
> aerosol powders.  All one needs is a used and cleaned print head

In fact not, pressure waves strong enough to aerosol liquid will also
cause cavitation, resulting in heating and destruction of material.

> assembly and its piezo pulse circuitry.  Nozzle apertures are
> typically 25-50 micron and if the material is suspended, in weak

Ever tried pushing a bacterial suspension through a printer head
(processivity set aside)? It will clog it up in no time.

> concentration, in a solution which quickly evaporates but doesn't harm
> the spores it should produce moderate quantities of fine powder
> quickly.

Um, why don't we quit armchair microbiology, and stick to what we can
best: produce lots of uninformed speculations? Oh.

> If smaller sizes are desired a field ring charged to 1000-3000v DC can
> be placed around and in front of the nozzles.  If operated in sync
> with the nozzle pulses it can cause a the emerging droplets to cascade
> to nanometer size via the electrospray effect (now becoming common in
> drug production).  See
> http://www.essex.ac.uk/bs/staff/colbeck/index.htm#appas

I think it should be easy enough to look up relevant patents online,
assuming one is bored enough.

Vietnam to US: charge your citizens with terrorism

2001-10-21 Thread Khoder bin Hakkin


First Israel, now Vietnam.  Only Vietnam wants the US to
charge US citizens with terroristm against Vietnam.

Curiouser and curiouser.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102101viet.story
Excerpts:

As the United States presses its war against terrorism,
Vietnam is demanding that American officials extend the
crackdown to an immigrant group they say has sponsored
Southeast Asian bombing attempts from its headquarters
in a nondescript Garden Grove office building.

..

 "Vietnam has asked the
U.S. to stop harboring, tolerating or supporting that
group. It should punish those who commit terrorist acts
on Vietnam . . . like Nguyen and his group."
..

Though it is not illegal for U.S. citizens to call for the
overthrow of a foreign government, it is against the law
for Americans to become involved in the effort to do so.


-
Domestic terrorism is the only way to remind Americans that they
are responsible for what their government does.

First Days #25FE

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Judgement Collection Expert

2001-10-21 Thread ron513






 Thank  you  for  your  interest!!!
 

Judgment Courses offers an extensive training
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 '

 s 4


 
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Re: ENVELOPE STUFFING JOB

2001-10-21 Thread Riad S. Wahby

Sholanda Maria Coleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is there anyway I can talk to one of your representatives?  I'm very anxious
> to get started.

How much laboratory experience do you have?  Specifically, we're
looking for people with experience handling white powders.  Also,
please let us know if your vaccinations are not up-to-date.

--
Riad Wahby
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
MIT VI-2/A 2002

Re: IP: "U.S. On Verge of 'Electronic Martial Law' (fwd)

2001-10-21 Thread auto301094

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Eugene wrote:

>Brush painted a grim picture of "Internet martial law" being imposed in a
>vain attempt to capture distributed terrorist groups. Terrorists' style of
>"Net war," a term coined earlier by experts at the RAND policy think tank,
>would prove elusive to counter by the lumbering centralized government, she
>said.

Actually the term of art is "NETWAR", one word, first used by John Arquilla
and David Ronfeldt in their essay, "Cyberwar is Coming!" available at
www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR880/MR880.ch2.pdf .

So what is netwar?

"Netwar is an emerging mode of conflict in which the protagonists--ranging from
terrorist and criminal organizations on the dark side, to militant social
activists on the bright side--use network forms of organization, doctrine,
strategy, and technology attuned to the information age. The practice of netwar
is well ahead of theory, as both civil and uncivil society actors are
increasingly engaging in this new way of fighting. We suggest how the theory of
netwar may be improved by drawing on academic perspectives on networks,
especially those about organizational network analysis. As for practice,
strategists and policymakers in Washington and elsewhere have begun to discern
the dark side of the network phenomenon--especially in the wake of the "attack
on America" perpetrated apparently by Osama bin Laden's terror network. But
they still have much work to do to begin harnessing the bright side, by
formulating strategies that will enable state and civil-society actors to work
together better."

If you are interested in this topic, THE books (free online pdfs)to read are:

Networks and Netwars:
The Future of Terror, Crime, and Militancy
John Arquilla, David Ronfeldt (editors)

http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1382/

Strategic Appraisal:
The Changing Role of Information in Warfare

Zalmay Khalilzad, John P. White, Andrew W. Marshall
http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1016/

and...

In Athena's Camp:
Preparing for Conflict in the Information Age
John Arquilla and David Ronfeldt, editors

http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR880/

Hope that helps! ~F.

***

Say what you know, do what you must, come what may.

- --[Sofia Kovalevskaya, motto on her paper "On the Problem of the Rotation of a
Solid Body about a Fixed Point."]

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Re: Why Plan-9?

2001-10-21 Thread Harmon Seaver

Steve Furlong wrote:

> Sunder wrote:
> >
> > Why Plan-9?  I'd say go with OpenBSD. :)  Built in crypto, built in
> > firewall, secure on installation without you needing to tweak stuff.  Hell
> > you can even tell it to encrypt swap pages.
>
> I'd really like to use OBSD for my always-on server, but there are a few
> shortcomings.

 Does OBSD have a kernel optimized for use as a router like linux does?
That's really important if you want a full-time router.
http://master-www.linuxrouter.org:8080/

Likewise, the linux bios would be very useful here -- does obsd have a bios
port?
www.linuxbios.org

(snip)

>
> - Encrypted file systems: I want my main server to have TCFS or
> equivalent, so if the machine is seized the feebs would see a tiny boot
> partition and a large, strongly-encrypted main partition. I tried a few
> encrypted file systems a while back, and the couple I found for OBSD
> weren't there yet, either; they typically dumped core when I tried to
> use them. (I see that Dr Evil posted a message on this subject last May
> on a list archived at Geocrawler, so I guess the shortcoming hasn't been
> fixed since I last looked at it in depth.)

 You need to look at the linux cryptoapi, which is fully functional at this
point
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/hvr/
 and which can also be used to encrypt both swap *and* boot partition if you
want (using initrd).

 I agree, Plan 9 looks very interesting, but then, so does MOSIX
http://www.mosix.org/ which is also a distributed (kernel implemented) OS based
on linux.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

Guardian Unlimited Observer | International | Hacker cries foul over FBI snooping


http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,577846,00.html
-- 

 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: Why Plan-9?

on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:29:16PM -0500, Jim Choate ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> > This says nothing about current development.  Word I've heard (from
> > someone tangentially involved with the project) was that the release was
> > something of a desperation move.  As someone who watches free software
> > licences closely, the Plan 9 license is one of the more twisted bits of
> > corporate-authored licenses.  Not necessarially bad, but it reeks of
> > compromise clauses speaking to internal battles.  Rumor was that a
> > codebase that had been stable for a couple of years saw a slew of
> > commits in the weeks leading to the public release.
> 
> ??? Plan 9 was released Open Source in 2000. 

Summer, June/July, IIRC.  I've done a couple of look-ups since.  There's
been little additional news or information (I'm not saying none, I'm
saying little).  OpenBSD, a relatively little-known free 'nix, gets
rather more press and community coverage.

While there's nothing wrong with a small, dedicated core, I'm just
commenting that there doesn't appear to be much broader appeal.

> > The license is *not* OSI certified, nor is it considered Free Software
> > by the FSF.
> 
>  Ask me if I care.

A fair number of people respect the opinions of the OSI and FSF, if only
because they don't feel like combing through licensing terms themselves.
I'm active on the OSI's license-discuss list, and see quite a few
proposed licenses and terms.  I'm rather convinced that novelty, all
else being equal, is bad.  Compellingly adventageous licensing language
may be of some interest.  The MozPL is the last license I'd consider to
have provided this (it's a community-friendly mixed-mode copyleft +
proprietary use license).

Poor licensing choices are one of several key modes of failure for free
software projects.  If Plan 9 procedes forward, I expect to see another
two or three significant licensing revisions.

> Read Lessigs "Code".

At my side.  What specifically?

> > >  - Filesystem is fully transitive, everything is treated like a file.
> > >This creates some unique opportunities to make publicly shared but
> > >privately maintaned resource pools. Hangar 18 is an attempt to do
> > >just this.
> > 
> > What does this mean?  How does this compare with,
> 
> Transitive means that A mounts B, C mounts A and gets B free. Plan 9 does
> this, managed by a set of authorization layers for fine control, native.
> This means that when Hangar 18 goes online you can mount /hangar18 into
> your filespace (via Plan 9 or Linux NFS services) and you will get all the
> resources that Hangar 18 mounts through that point. ftp is a good example.
> In Plan 9 you 'mount' the ftp server to your file system. If you ever go
> out and walk that part of the file space tree and request a file it only
> then goes and gets it. You can control its lifetime (to manage disk space
> for example) via local cache controls. A 'lazy update' mechanism, very
> efficient of network and local resources.

Interesting.  Some similarity then with the autofs system under
GNU/Linux, in which remote filesystems may be mounted by various
methods, including FTP, though transitivity isn't generally included
IIRC.

> > >  - Encryption (currently DES, needs fixing) built right in.
> > 
> > Built into what?
> 
> The network layer. The traffic between any two Plan 9 boxes is
> encrypted with keys dependent upon the individual boxes (or larger
> classes if you desire) if the system is so configured. You can also
> use this to encrypt branches of your filesystem. Plan 9 provides SSH.

Always or at discression?  Again, possible with GNU/Linux, though not as
trivial as desireable at present.

> But the passwords don't go across the network, therefore they're not
> 'used' in the conventional sense.

Interesting.  Somewhat like, say, SSH RSA key authentication, but at OS
level?

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

 PGP signature

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Instant Anthrax...test (was: Re: And another one bites the dust...)

gpg: Invalid passphrase; please try again ...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:02:17PM -0700, David Honig ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> At 02:56 PM 10/21/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> >The media hype also tends to ignore the fact that anthrax is, in the
> >forms detected to date, largely treatable.  Gross attempts at
> >containment (expensive) are less advisable than identification and
> >treatment of exposed individuals (less expensive).
> 
> Once the person has enough symptoms to seek treatment, I think they're
> toast.  We'll see.  Maybe all USPO workers will be given 60 days of
> Cipro.  If they're the only ones to survive, the species is fucked.

You clearly can't to wait for individuals to be symptomatic, you have to
detect eposures.  The point, however, is that exposure itself isn't a
high risk given appropriate, timely, treatment.

The Economist is now reporting on "instant screening":

http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=821937

Biological weapons
Testing times
Oct 18th 2001
From The Economist print edition

Instant screening for anthrax is now possible

[...]

Unfortunately, the two established methods for identifying anthrax
and other microbial contaminants involve time-consuming laboratory
techniques. One is to try to culture an organism from the powder,
and then subject it to a barrage of chemical tests to identify it.
The other is to amplify and identify its DNA . The first takes days,
and the second is a sophisticated technique that few laboratories
are yet able to manage. So, even if the result is negative, chaos
may already have been caused and the act of terrorism rewarded.

A better solution would be to screen on the spot. And technology to
do this is now available. It uses a test strip, costing $20, that
looks like a pregnancy-detection kit.

The Guardian Bio-Threat Alert System is a joint development by
Alexeter Technologies, based in Wheeling, Illinois, and Tetracore,
of Gaithersburg, Maryland. It takes 15 minutes to react to the
presence of anthrax, and it is the only rapid field test now
available. 

[...]

Apologies if this was already posted here.  Search of my inbox doesn't
turn it up.

Peace.

- -- 
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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Re: used lab equiptment

2001-10-21 Thread keyser-soze


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-


On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:01:40 +0200 (MET DST), Eugene Leitl 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> A specialized ultrasonic device is not required to produce micron fine
>> aerosol powders.  All one needs is a used and cleaned print head
>
>In fact not, pressure waves strong enough to aerosol liquid will also
>cause cavitation, resulting in heating and destruction of material.

At ultrasonic frequencies this can be a problem.  At lower freq, generally not.  When 
combined with the electrospray method which provides significant "pull" of the droplet 
from the nozzle reducing required piezo pressure and consequent cell wall damage. I've 
not tried it with anthrax but it can work well with ecoli.

>
>> assembly and its piezo pulse circuitry.  Nozzle apertures are
>> typically 25-50 micron and if the material is suspended, in weak
>
>Ever tried pushing a bacterial suspension through a printer head
>(processivity set aside)? It will clog it up in no time.

No, but I have through a micro pipette and if the suspension is dilute (as I noted) it 
works fine.

>
>> concentration, in a solution which quickly evaporates but doesn't harm
>> the spores it should produce moderate quantities of fine powder
>> quickly.
>
>Um, why don't we quit armchair microbiology, and stick to what we can
>best: produce lots of uninformed speculations? Oh.

Indeed.
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Re: Why Plan-9?



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> Summer, June/July, IIRC.  I've done a couple of look-ups since.  There's
> been little additional news or information (I'm not saying none, I'm
> saying little).  OpenBSD, a relatively little-known free 'nix, gets
> rather more press and community coverage.

You need to be on the mailing list. There is almost constant changes. You
can also visit the wiki link at Bell Labs for the most current info.

> proposed licenses and terms.  I'm rather convinced that novelty, all
> else being equal, is bad.

Can't disagree more.


 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: ENVELOPE STUFFING JOB

2001-10-21 Thread Steve Furlong

David Honig wrote:
> 
> At 06:42 PM 10/21/01 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> >I'm tempted to scatter baker's yeast in a public place and powdered
> 
> All the packaged yeast I've ever seen is *way* too coarse to inhale,
> and if you did snort yeast, it wouldn't make it to the depths of your
> lungs.

Oh, certainly. But snorting the powder wasn't the idea. The idea was to
cause alurum and confusion. I figure, if the masses are panicked by
powdered sugar and talcum powder, they might also be panicked by a pile
of yeast. Except that they're probably too ignorant to be scared of a
_brown_ powder. Which was the reason for the experiment in the first
place.

SRF

-- 
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato

Re: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another one down

2001-10-21 Thread David Honig

At 02:56 PM 10/21/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>The media hype also tends to ignore the fact that anthrax is, in the
>forms detected to date, largely treatable.  Gross attempts at
>containment (expensive) are less advisable than identification and
>treatment of exposed individuals (less expensive).

Once the person has enough symptoms to seek treatment,
I think they're toast.  We'll see.  Maybe all USPO
workers will be given 60 days of Cipro.  If they're
the only ones to survive, the species is fucked.

Beefing up security at America's dams and reservoirs

2001-10-21 Thread Nomen Nescio


National Public Radio (NPR) Morning Edition  (11:00 AM AM ET)
Thursday, Oct. 18, 2001

Beefing up security at America's dams and reservoirs

BOB EDWARDS, host: This is 
MORNING EDITION from NPR News. I'm Bob
Edwards.

Security is tight at many of the 
nation's 70,000 reservoirs and dams.
There's concern about water contamination from 
chemical or biological
agents, and about possible attempts to breach the dams. NPR's 
Howard
Berkes reports. HOWARD BERKES reporting:

All across the country now, guards 
are on patrol and checkpoints are
in place in an attempt to keep terrorists away from 
dams. Hoover Dam,
near Las Vegas, has a major regional highway straddling its crest, 
but
roadblocks as far as 20 miles away hold trucks, buses and big RVs
back. And 
floating patrols behind and below the dam keep boats away.
Bob Walsh is spokesman for 
the US Bureau of Reclamation, which manages
Hoover Dam.

Mr. BOB WALSH (US Bureau of 
Reclamation): You don't want large
vehicles carrying explosives,!
 for example, to be allowed across the
dam. Gasoline tankers, for example, are 
prohibited from crossing the
dam at this point as well; any type of a hazardous 
material.

BERKES: The September 11th attacks prompted similar security at some
of the 
bureau's 500 other dams in 17 Western states. John Keyes is the
commissioner of the 
Bureau of Reclamation.

Commissioner JOHN KEYES (US Bureau of Reclamation): There is 
no
specific threat against any of our specific facilities, let me put it
that way. But 
potential for terrorist activity is being provided for.
We are at a high level of 
security at all of our critical facilities,
both to protect against damage to the 
facilities themselves and to the
water supplies.

BERKES: The risk at these facilities 
is enormous. And it's not just
from flooding downstream if a dam is breached or fails. 
Sixty-one
million people depend on the structures for water, including farmers
producing 60 percent of the nation's vegetables. Bureau dams generate
!
enough power for six million homes. They're a tempting target for
terrorists, says Tim 
Brown, a senior analyst at globalsecurity.org.

Mr. TIM BROWN (Senior Analyst, 
Globalsecurity.org): The entire economy
in the Southwest is dependent upon the 
electricity and the irrigation
that the dams afford. And the loss of any or all of the 
dams along the
Colorado River Basin would cripple the economy of the Southwest for
years to come, and could have potentially significant effects on the
US economy in the 
long run.

BERKES: That's also true for other regions and hundreds of communities
in 
all parts of the country with critical links to the nation's 70,000
dams. Most were 
built long before terrorism was considered a strong
domestic threat, notes Bill 
Bingham, a dam designer and engineer.
Bingham is also president of the US Society on 
Dams, a national group
focusing on engineering and safety.

Mr. BILL BINGHAM (US 
Society of Dams): Our dams in the past have not
been designed for severe!
 blast incidents like we would see with a
truckload of explosives across the top a 
dam, or an aircraft loaded
with fuel crashing into the downstream face of the dam. I 
don't think
that design criteria encompasses those kinds of issues.

BERKES: So it's 
unclear, Bingham says, whether dams can be breached by
such attacks. He's calling for 
a national risk assessment to determine
dam vulnerabilities and ways to protect them.

Mr. BINGHAM: Making sure that you've got the properties as secure as
you can make 
them; limiting access, and doing regular patrols and
those types of things. And having 
a current emergency action plan in
the event that there would be some kind of an 
attack on one of these
facilities.

BERKES: John Keyes of the US Bureau of 
Reclamations says he's already
accessing the risk at bureau dams, while also 
bolstering security.

Mr. KEYES: Terrorism is nothing new to the security for our
facilities. We've deal with Earth Liberation Front and the
ecoterrorism folks f!
or several years. We have prepared for
contingencies involving contamination of 
reservoir water. We have
emergency preparedness plans for all of our facilities that 
deal with
inundation downstream. We have a comprehensive dam safety program, as
well 
as a general security program for protection of those vital
infrastructures.

Keyes 
acknowledges one problem. The bureau has only one armed security
force at Hoover Dam. 
The rest of its dams depend on unarmed guards and
voluntary help from state and local 
police who have limited authority
on federal property. Congress is considering 
legislation to address
that. Bill Bingham of the US Society of Dams, worries more 
about
state, local and private structures.

Mr. BINGHAM: There are many privately 
owned or even publicly
owned--non-federal publicly owned dams that do not have 
emergency
action plans, or security plans.

BERKES: Bingham says some dam owners don't 
have the money or staff for
more security, and he says states ha

Re: ENVELOPE STUFFING JOB

2001-10-21 Thread David Honig


At 06:42 PM 10/21/01 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
>I'm tempted to scatter baker's yeast in a public place and powdered

All the packaged yeast I've ever seen is *way* too coarse to inhale,
and if you did snort yeast, it wouldn't make it to the depths of your
lungs.

Re: Retribution not enough

2001-10-21 Thread Declan McCullagh


I'm actually surprised to see Steve launch into a critique of laissez-faire 
capitalism here on cypherpunks, of all places. One can admit that 
globalization has ill effects (mostly, bricks through windows of Starbucks 
thrown by bored, upper-middle-class, college-age protesters), certainly. 
But when responding to claims that factory workers in poorer countries are 
only being paid $2/hour or whatnot, it makes sense to ask: Is this worse 
than their other alternatives, like mud huts in villages?

To argue against people voluntarily entering into market-based transactions 
with each other is so a-economical and contrary to cypherpunk philosophies* 
-- wlel, I just don't think it's worth taking the time to go any further in 
a response.

-Declan

* = To the extent that there are any cypherpunk philosophies, of course.



At 01:17 PM 10/20/01 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 01:42 PM 10/20/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:35:53PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>> > The direction of all recent administrations has been to expand
>> > globalization (i.e., interdependency) thus increasing economic risks and
>> > narrowing diplomatic choices.  In the short term, and we have no idea what
>>
>>When I speak of globalization, I mean removing barriers imposed by government
>>to voluntary exchanges between consenting people. Sounds good to me.
>
>Unfortunately, many citizens in the developing world are not party to 
>these "voluntary" exchanges, but are directly affected.  I've read the 
>reports of the many low wage sweat shop jobs, mainly performed by young 
>women, in these countries and that their alternative is worse.  In a way 
>one could portray their situations as dismal but not dire, sort of along 
>the on-screen comments of Arthur to the prostitute is dinning with "... so 
>you might say you're having a relatively good time?"
>
>In the short term economic inequalities and human rights abuses may be 
>exacerbated (e.g., the fate of rural mainland Chinese).  The long-term 
>effects of globalization are as yet unknown.
>
>
>>You seem to think of liberal global trade as a zero-sum game. This is
>>an elementary error. Instead, liberal global trade is what economists
>>would call an "expanding pie" where additional wealth is created.
>
>Agreed, but wealth is only one measure of human happiness and the jury is 
>still out on whether the vast majority of those indirectly affected by 
>globalization will find it has been in their best interests.

Re: IP: Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps (fwd)

2001-10-21 Thread Harmon Seaver

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
> >All the more reason to use Linux routers and firewalls.
> > Especially if Cisco pulls a Larry Ellison.
> >
> > --
> > Harmon Seaver, MLIS
>
> That's fine and dandy for ds1's, and maybe even enough for the majority of
> fractional ds3 customers, but how are you going to apply this to people
> with oc12 handoffs?  Even oc3 handoffs are going to be *really* difficult
> boxes to build using COTS/PC technology.
>
>

  There's a number of router manufacturers that do a lot more than use PC
hardware. This one beats the Cisco 7500:
http://www.imagestream-is.com/News_1-26-01.html

I'm sure the hardware to deal with oc12s will be soon forthcoming, if it
isn't already available. Besides which, if you and I run a vpn between our
routers, do we really care if it goes thru a feeb checkpoint? Remailer
software could be modified to tunnel between themselves, not just encrypt,
etc.
Of couse, the whole concept of what they're talking about is impossible
to implement. Easy to order, but I can't see how it would ever work in
reality, not well enough to keep the net actually functioning.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent

2001-10-21 Thread Incognito Innominatus


FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001350021-2001364909,00.html

AMERICAN investigators are considering resorting to harsher interrogation techniques, 
including torture, after facing a wall of silence from jailed suspected members of 
Osama bin Ladens al-Qaeda network, according to a report yesterday.
More than 150 people who were picked up after September 11 remain in custody, with 
four men the focus of particularly intense scrutiny. But investigators have found the 
usual methods have failed to persuade any of them to talk.
Options being weighed include truth drugs, pressure tactics and extraditing the 
suspects to countries whose security services are more used to employing a 
heavy-handed approach during interrogations.
Were into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking. Frustration has begun to 
appear, a senior FBI official told The Washington Post.
Under US law, evidence extracted using physical pressure or torture is inadmissible in 
court and interrogators could also face criminal charges for employing such methods. 
However, investigators suggested that the time might soon come when a truth serum, 
such as sodium pentothal, would be deemed an acceptable tool for interrogators.
The public pressure for results in the war on terrorism might also persuade the FBI to 
encourage the countries of suspects to seek their extradition, in the knowledge that 
they could be given a much rougher reception in jails back home.
One of the four key suspects is Zacarias Moussaoui, a French Moroccan, suspected of 
being a twentieth hijacker who failed to make it on board the plane that crashed in 
Pennsylvania. Moussaoui was detained after he acted suspiciously at a Minnesota flying 
school, requesting lessons in how to steer a plane but not how to take off or land. 
Both Morocco and France are regarded as having harsher interrogation methods than the 
United States.
The investigators have been disappointed that the usual incentives to break suspects, 
such as promises of shorter sentences, money, jobs and new lives in the witness 
protection programme, have failed to break the silence.
We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck. Usually there is 
some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do for them. But it could get to that 
spot where we could go to pressure . . . where we dont have a choice, and we are 
probably getting there, an FBI agent involved in the investigation told the paper.
The other key suspects being held in New York are Mohammed Jaweed Azmath and Ayub Ali 
Khan, Indians who were caught the day after the attacks travelling with false 
passports, craft knives such as those used in the hijackings and hair dye. Nabil 
Almarabh, a Boston taxi driver alleged to have links to al-Qaeda, is also being held. 
Some legal experts believe that the US Supreme Court, which has a conservative tilt, 
might be prepared to support curtailing the civil liberties of prisoners in terrorism 
cases.
However, a warning that torture should be avoided came from Robert Blitzer, a former 
head of the FBIs counter-terrorism section. He said that the practice goes against 
every grain in my body. Chances are you are going to get the wrong person and risk 
damage or killing them.
In all, about 800 people have been rounded up since the attacks, most of whom are 
expected to be found to be innocent. Investigators believe there could be hundreds of 
people linked to al-Qaeda living in the US, and the Bush Administration has issued a 
warning that more attacks are probably being planned.
Newsweek magazine reports today that Mohammed Atta, the suspected ringleader who died 
in the first plane to hit the World Trade Centre, had been looking into hitting an 
aircraft carrier. Investigators retracing his movements found that he visited the huge 
US Navy base at Norfolk, Virginia, in February and April this year.

Re: Retribution not enough

2001-10-21 Thread Steve Schear

At 10:02 PM 10/21/2001 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I'm actually surprised to see Steve launch into a critique of 
>laissez-faire capitalism here on cypherpunks, of all places. One can admit 
>that globalization has ill effects (mostly, bricks through windows of 
>Starbucks thrown by bored, upper-middle-class, college-age protesters), 
>certainly. But when responding to claims that factory workers in poorer 
>countries are only being paid $2/hour or whatnot, it makes sense to ask: 
>Is this worse than their other alternatives, like mud huts in villages?

Actually its not the wages, which may quite attractive for these workers 
and their skills, but the intimidation and occasional violence used to 
recruit and maintain employees, keep them from organizing and the 
government support or blind eyes which take me aback.  It reminded me of 
the tyranny of the coal mining companies in West Virginia circa 1880's.

>To argue against people voluntarily entering into market-based 
>transactions with each other is so a-economical and contrary to cypherpunk 
>philosophies* -- wlel, I just don't think it's worth taking the time to go 
>any further in a response.

I've actually spoken to a few Central American women who worked in these 
factories and the conversations left an indelible memory.  I'm not ready to 
abandon my support of laissez-faire capitalism or globalism.  Perhaps these 
painful personal experiences are all for the best in the long term, I 
certainly don't have a better solution to improving their lot, but it has 
caused me to think about the price some pay.

steve

Re: Beefing up security at America's dams and reservoirs

2001-10-21 Thread Steve Schear


At 03:20 AM 10/22/2001 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>National Public Radio (NPR) Morning Edition  (11:00 AM AM ET)
>Thursday, Oct. 18, 2001
>
>Beefing up security at America's dams and reservoirs
>
>BOB EDWARDS, host: This is MORNING EDITION from NPR News. I'm Bob
>Edwards.

Should have used the title

Plugging security holes at America's dams and reservoirs ;-)

steve

Re: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another one down

On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 06:02 PM, David Honig wrote:

> At 02:56 PM 10/21/01 -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>> The media hype also tends to ignore the fact that anthrax is, in the
>> forms detected to date, largely treatable.  Gross attempts at
>> containment (expensive) are less advisable than identification and
>> treatment of exposed individuals (less expensive).
>
> Once the person has enough symptoms to seek treatment,
> I think they're toast.  We'll see.  Maybe all USPO
> workers will be given 60 days of Cipro.  If they're
> the only ones to survive, the species is fucked.
>

I saw the Sturgeon General explaining that "we now have better treatment 
methods."

I thought he might have been right, inasmuch as we had heard that Victim 
#2, in Florida, was mending nicely from inhalation anthrax. Ah, but it 
now looks like #2 was not a real case of inhalational anthrax.

(I don't count the half dozen subcutaneous cases, or any of the "one 
spore was picked up on a swab" cases.)

It looks like this Maryland case is a real Case #2. If he survives, 
it'll mean the Sturgeon General was right to say we now can handle 
anthrax. But I expect he's a goner.

--Tim May
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a 
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also 
into you." -- Nietzsche

RESEND: FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent

2001-10-21 Thread Incognito Innominatus


FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001350021-2001364909,00.html

AMERICAN investigators are considering resorting to harsher 
interrogation techniques, including torture, after facing a wall of 
silence from jailed suspected members of Osama bin Ladens al-Qaeda 
network, according to a report yesterday.

More than 150 people who were picked up after September 11 remain in 
custody, with four men the focus of particularly intense scrutiny. But 
investigators have found the usual methods have failed to persuade any 
of them to talk.

Options being weighed include truth drugs, pressure tactics and 
extraditing the suspects to countries whose security services are more 
used to employing a heavy-handed approach during interrogations.

Were into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking. Frustration 
has begun to appear, a senior FBI official told The Washington Post.

Under US law, evidence extracted using physical pressure or torture is 
inadmissible in court and interrogators could also face criminal 
charges for employing such methods. However, investigators suggested 
that the time might soon come when a truth serum, such as sodium 
pentothal, would be deemed an acceptable tool for interrogators.

The public pressure for results in the war on terrorism might also 
persuade the FBI to encourage the countries of suspects to seek their 
extradition, in the knowledge that they could be given a much rougher 
reception in jails back home.

One of the four key suspects is Zacarias Moussaoui, a French Moroccan, 
suspected of being a twentieth hijacker who failed to make it on board 
the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. Moussaoui was detained after he 
acted suspiciously at a Minnesota flying school, requesting lessons in 
how to steer a plane but not how to take off or land. Both Morocco and 
France are regarded as having harsher interrogation methods than the 
United States.

The investigators have been disappointed that the usual incentives to 
break suspects, such as promises of shorter sentences, money, jobs and 
new lives in the witness protection programme, have failed to break the 
silence.

We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck. 
Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do 
for them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure . 
. . where we dont have a choice, and we are probably getting there, 
an FBI agent involved in the investigation told the paper.

The other key suspects being held in New York are Mohammed Jaweed 
Azmath and Ayub Ali Khan, Indians who were caught the day after the 
attacks travelling with false passports, craft knives such as those 
used in the hijackings and hair dye. Nabil Almarabh, a Boston taxi 
driver alleged to have links to al-Qaeda, is also being held. Some 
legal experts believe that the US Supreme Court, which has a 
conservative tilt, might be prepared to support curtailing the civil 
liberties of prisoners in terrorism cases.

However, a warning that torture should be avoided came from Robert 
Blitzer, a former head of the FBIs counter-terrorism section. He said 
that the practice goes against every grain in my body. Chances are you 
are going to get the wrong person and risk damage or killing them.

In all, about 800 people have been rounded up since the attacks, most 
of whom are expected to be found to be innocent. Investigators believe 
there could be hundreds of people linked to al-Qaeda living in the US, 
and the Bush Administration has issued a warning that more attacks are 
probably being planned.

Newsweek magazine reports today that Mohammed Atta, the suspected 
ringleader who died in the first plane to hit the World Trade Centre, 
had been looking into hitting an aircraft carrier. Investigators 
retracing his movements found that he visited the huge US Navy base at 
Norfolk, Virginia, in February and April this year.

Re: Retribution not enough

2001-10-21 Thread jamesd

--
On 20 Oct 2001, at 16:31, Jim Choate wrote:
> What it takes to have reasonable living standards and 
> sufficient resources to help ones children do better than 
> themselves. The reality is that these sweatshops do exist, 
> that they do exploit the workers, and that they are 
> specifically managed to keep the workers from exploiting 
> economic, social, and educational resources. Why? Because 
> if the producers allow this behaviour they put themselves 
> out of business.

 Commie bullshit.

They are not poor because western capitalists are hiring
them.  They are poor because western capitalists are
prevented from hiring them.

Closing down the "sweatshops" makes third world people
poorer, not richer.  The poorest asian countries are those
that tightly controlled their economies and excluded foreign
enterprises, notably India, Vietnam, Nepal, and Burma.

The richest are those places that a few decades ago were
supposedly being oppressed for sweatshop labor by the evil
capitalists -- Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan.

Today the "sweatshops" are primarily in markedly less
capitalist places, notably Vietnam.

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 VC6rCCa/8NlTc4yknaikPeX+v1K5OpxSroJGyxsx
 48B4dg+MuWTijUu6JPzC3WioXT40voLmzsMqP/Clh

Re: CDR: RE: Retribution Time

On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> Hear, hear.
> 
> This sort of crap is the inevitable outcome of an unmoderated list.  

And the inevitable outcome of a _moderated_ list is that free expression
(loon-like or not) is sacrificed. 

No thanks.

Censorship. er, "moderation" is bad, regardless of any benign intent.

> All the
> loons come out to play because there are no real negative consequences for
> being a loon.

Wrong.  Nomen has long since placed him/herself into the position of not
being taken seriously.  Having groups of people who choose to turn a deaf
ear is a pretty real negative consequence, IMHO.

> And filtering does not do anything besides bury one's head in
> the sand.

I see killfiling as more of a simple noise suppressor, akin to the muffs
you wear when shooting.  If Nomen has nothing useful to say, then the
[individually chosen] loss of his/her input is not "hiding", as your
head-in-the-sand metaphor would suggest.

> I have an solution... (no, it's not AP).  :'D

Mattd will be *very* disappointed .

> I promise, when I get my new business going and have the time/money to
> devote to it, I will offer Cypherpunks a real solution.

2.5% sodium hypochlorite?

>  (Anybody who has
> time/money and wants to discuss it now, please contact me offline.)
> 
> We now return you to the freak show, already in progress. 
> 
>  S a n d y

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Re: CDR: Ridge is lying, spores are pro

On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:

> In Washington, Ridge told reporters the anthrax analyzed in the United
> States had not been ``weaponized,'' meaning it had not been manipulated
> to
> facilitate inhalation by potential victims.

Actually, "weaponization" of germs is a two faceted thing.  Only one
aspect is the manufacture of an easily transmissable germ.  The other, and
by far more important side of "weaponization" is the manufacturing of a
germ which is highly resistant to treatment.

So far, it looks like the producers of Anthrax Theatre have only mastered
the easy part.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

RE: Retribution Time

2001-10-21 Thread Sandy Sandfort

J.A. Terranson wrote:

> And the inevitable outcome of a _moderated_
> list is that free expression (loon-like or
> not) is sacrificed.

Nonsense.  You don't understand the marketplace of ideas.  Free expression
is "sacrificed" only if other outlet for expression are silenced.  I cannot
and would not shut down [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
etc.  I will invite like-minder C'punks into my virtual living room and
encourage them to speak, but not to shouting.  You don't want to go there,
fine.  Stay with the crowd that makes you feel comfortable, but don't talk
nonsense about censorship.

 S a n d y

Re: CDR: Re: Another precious moment from shrub...

2001-10-21 Thread jamesd


--
James A. Donald:
>  > In Africa two Soviet sponsored tyrannies, both of which 
>  > had been committing mass murder on an enormous scale,  
>  > were overthrown though not replaced by democracies.

On 20 Oct 2001, at 0:30, Reese wrote:
> Do these two former-Soviet/current-? have names?

Ethiopia and Somalia.  Observe how killing a few commies  
seems to have dramatically improved the Ethiopian rainfall
:-)

(For the sarcasm impaired, the reference to rainfall was  
ridicule for the pious excuses offered offered by US pinkos  
for the artificial famines created by the Ethiopian regime.)

>  > In Latin America one Soviet sponsored tyranny was  
>  > overthrown, and replaced by democracy,

Reese:
> Name?

Nicaragua.

James A. Donald:
>  > and several regimes that had been fighting wars against 
>  > Soviet proxy troops supported by Cuba won victories,  
>  > making it possible for them to become democracies.

Reese:
> Names?

Guatemala and El Salvador.   

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 Hz7cuDrX7hY6JK0+6S0yqI7+36mHFL2I9FKNzfLJ
 4hpQA43ILndkqfloN5siazG7Wn6s1w2aHizw2vlEU

Re: Another precious moment from shrub...

2001-10-21 Thread jamesd


--
 Somoza fell largely because of US pressure, so he was not 
"our SOB".  Furthermore however nasty Somoza was, we did not 
see tens of thousands of refugees escaping Nicaragua to 
neighbouring countries during his rule.

The short story of Nicaragua is that there was a US sponsored 
overthrow of an unpleasant dictator, a commie conspiracy 
stole the revolution, and the contras took the revolution 
back, bleeding the Soviet Union significantly in the process. 
The war cost the Soviet Union vastly more than it cost the 
US, and the Soviet Union could afford it less


--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 O2nE3GR43JxWYey3RR11zt4sdp64nZ2+KYj+8Yv+
 41VIT0zZh9AAT+P/dbQDOVLCXj08qsCRHASyBXNX6

Why WAIT??? Refinance NOW!!!

2001-10-21 Thread justjumping


We can help!
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**

Re: Has Steve Schear earned killing? Verdict is out.

On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> "Any employee of our Company is free to "organize."  That day wlll be 
> his last day. Good luck, and fuck you!"
> 
> Free people are free to fire those who form communal organizations. 
> Anyone who disagrees with this point has earned killing.

No, they haven't. A disagreement of view is never in and of itself
justification for any physical act.

Why should you mind if these individual of a like mind decide they want to
re-negotiate their employment contract? Isn't that the 'free' in 'free
market'? The basis of free market economics is a give and take. The point
being that all parties are reasonably happy because they're reasonably
certain they got a fair and equitable deal. The fact the workers don't
feel that way is sufficient justification, in economic terms at least, for
their actions. The reality is that as much as some skin flint might like to 
keep paying 1920's salaries in 1970, the reality of the market doesn't
support those sorts of strategies. If the employer keeps too hard a line
nobody will work for him. If in fact the company can increase
productivity, lower costs, and increase profit why shouldn't the workers
reap some of that benefit. They are in reality as much a part of the
company, and fitting a share in the profits, as the 'board of diretors' or
the 'investors'.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: Retribution not enough

On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> To argue against people voluntarily entering into market-based transactions 
> with each other is so a-economical and contrary to cypherpunk philosophies* 
> -- wlel, I just don't think it's worth taking the time to go any further in 
> a response.

But they are not fully voluntary. The reality is that people must eat and
provide for themselves or die. That is what those people are doing. If
they had a realistic opportunity to change to a 8-5 job they would take
it. The character of 'persistance' of this problem alone damns the 'it's
their own fault' argument.

These people have jobs that suck. The thesis is that they should take
higher paying jobs. Assuming there are such jobs, why aren't they taking
them? Now, if the jobs aren't there, why not? Either line of reasoning
leads to one inescapable conslusion, there is at least one factor that is
not being accounted for in your model.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Has Steve Schear earned killing? Verdict is out.


On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 08:27 PM, Steve Schear wrote:

> At 10:02 PM 10/21/2001 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> I'm actually surprised to see Steve launch into a critique of 
>> laissez-faire capitalism here on cypherpunks, of all places. One can 
>> admit that globalization has ill effects (mostly, bricks through 
>> windows of Starbucks thrown by bored, upper-middle-class, college-age 
>> protesters), certainly. But when responding to claims that factory 
>> workers in poorer countries are only being paid $2/hour or whatnot, it 
>> makes sense to ask: Is this worse than their other alternatives, like 
>> mud huts in villages?
>
> Actually its not the wages, which may quite attractive for these 
> workers and their skills, but the intimidation and occasional violence 
> used to recruit and maintain employees, keep them from organizing and 
> the government support or blind eyes which take me aback.  It reminded 
> me of the tyranny of the coal mining companies in West Virginia circa 
> 1880's.

"Any employee of our Company is free to "organize."  That day wlll be 
his last day. Good luck, and fuck you!"

Free people are free to fire those who form communal organizations. 
Anyone who disagrees with this point has earned killing.

Choose wisely, Steve Schear.


--Tim May

--Tim May
"The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the 
expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat

Re: Retribution not enough


On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 09:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> --
> On 20 Oct 2001, at 16:31, Jim Choate wrote:
>> What it takes to have reasonable living standards and
>> sufficient resources to help ones children do better than
>> themselves. The reality is that these sweatshops do exist,
>> that they do exploit the workers, and that they are
>> specifically managed to keep the workers from exploiting
>> economic, social, and educational resources. Why? Because
>> if the producers allow this behaviour they put themselves
>> out of business.
>
>  Commie bullshit.
>
> They are not poor because western capitalists are hiring
> them.  They are poor because western capitalists are
> prevented from hiring them.
>
> Closing down the "sweatshops" makes third world people
> poorer, not richer.  The poorest asian countries are those
> that tightly controlled their economies and excluded foreign
> enterprises, notably India, Vietnam, Nepal, and Burma.

We should "close down" the horrible sweatshops in Asia, India, South 
America, and other hellholes. (Africa is not counted because they are 
below sweat shop standards.)

We will then see what 2.6 billion people have to eat.

Things will be less crowded in Asia and South America, that's for sure.


--Tim May
"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any 
member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to 
others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient 
warrant." --John Stuart Mill

FBI's Trial Balloon- Torture

2001-10-21 Thread Matthew Gaylor


[Note from Matthew Gaylor:  It is an established procedure of a 
government to first hint at something that they are considering to 
gauge the reaction.  This has got to be one of the more disturbing 
items I've read over the course of the last couple of weeks.  The US 
constitution and bill of rights recognizes, not grants rights.  Any 
FBI agent who considers torturing a suspect should be fired and then 
prosecuted for conspiracy to violate civil rights.  Such an agent is 
also a traitor to the US constitution.  FBI agents when they take 
their oath pledge their allegiance to the Constitution against all 
enemies foreign and domestic. Any law enforcement officer who 
tortures suspects or carts suspects off to be tortured in a foreign 
land certainly deserve to be considered Un-American and an enemy of 
the rule of law.]



Silence of 4 Terror Probe Suspects Poses Dilemma

By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 21, 2001; Page A06


FBI and Justice Department investigators are increasingly frustrated 
by the silence of jailed suspected associates of Osama bin Laden's al 
Qaeda network, and some are beginning to that say that traditional 
civil liberties may have to be cast aside if they are to extract 
information about the Sept. 11 attacks and terrorist plans.

[...]

Said one experienced FBI agent involved in the investigation: "We are 
known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck. . . . 
Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do 
for them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure 
. . . where we won't have a choice, and we are probably getting 
there."

Among the alternative strategies under discussion are using drugs or 
pressure tactics, such as those employed occasionally by Israeli 
interrogators, to extract information. Another idea is extraditing 
the suspects to allied countries where security services sometimes 
employ threats to family members or resort to torture.

Under U.S. law, interrogators in criminal cases can lie to suspects, 
but information obtained by physical pressure, inhumane treatment or 
torture cannot be used in a trial. In addition, the government 
interrogators who used such tactics could be sued by the victim or 
charged with battery by the government.

[...]

**
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**

Re: Retribution not enough



On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> --
> On 20 Oct 2001, at 16:31, Jim Choate wrote:
> > What it takes to have reasonable living standards and 
> > sufficient resources to help ones children do better than 
> > themselves. The reality is that these sweatshops do exist, 
> > that they do exploit the workers, and that they are 
> > specifically managed to keep the workers from exploiting 
> > economic, social, and educational resources. Why? Because 
> > if the producers allow this behaviour they put themselves 
> > out of business.
> 
>  Commie bullshit.

Their rational is more motivated by their own economic growth than the
community, so 'commie' would hardly describe their viewpoint. Unrestrained
economic masturbation might fit...


 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Karsten M. Self shows himself to be clueless, again


On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 06:34 PM, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> gpg: Invalid passphrase; please try again ...
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash

> Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   
> http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
>  What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the 
> brave
>   http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/   Land of the 
> free
>Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! 
> http://www.freesklyarov.org
> Geek for Hire 
> http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
>
> iD8DBQE703eMOEeIn1XyubARAkv8AJsGXp1TQp8Zy+CPWNLrtb34BeJBdQCfb470
> tehhCnLmo1UbvUhPFE7o4Z0=
> =cjrt
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>


Jesus fucking Christ, if you're going to subject us to all of your PGP, 
GPG, GnuPG1.0.6 crud, at least get your fucking password straight, you 
fucking moron.

"gpg: Invalid passphrase: please try again..."

Fucking creep. Where's that sniper rifle, Bob?



--Tim May
"The great object is that every man be armed and everyone who is able 
may have a gun." --Patrick Henry
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be 
properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton

Re: CDR: Re: Retribution not enough

On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> We should "close down" the horrible sweatshops in Asia, India, South 
> America, and other hellholes. (Africa is not counted because they are 
> below sweat shop standards.)

Nonsense. What we should do is bring them under rule of law and ensure
that their efforts are rewarded with an equitable share of the profits
their efforts created. The very basis of free market economies, one is
rewarded FAIRLY for their efforts.

The real question, one that is probably unanswerable, is who gets to
decide what is 'fair'. Not only is there no 'fair' way to decide, but
there's no one universal definition of 'fair'.

So, whatever system we put in place must be based on relative
methodologies and measures. The next question is who gets to decide those,
followed by who gets to exercise them.

So, we need a system that is equitable (with respect to access),
representative (in the sense of everyone has a say in it), and limited (in
that some behaviours are outside the bounds of regulation - speech,
personal possession of a firearm).

C-A-C-L doesn't qualify on several points.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another one down

2001-10-21 Thread Bill Stewart

At 08:30 PM 10/21/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I saw the Sturgeon General explaining that "we now have better treatment 
>methods."

Depends a lot on which strain it is - some varieties of anthrax are
treatable by penicillin and some other common antibiotics,
while others are resistent and need Cipro.
Unfortunately, telling them apart takes a couple of days of culturing,
during which time your patient dies if you guessed wrong,
but apparently the penicillins do a much better job when they work
without being anywhere near as nasty for the patient.

Is FBI's Robert Blitzer related to Wolf Blitzer?

2001-10-21 Thread Bill Stewart


The London Times article on FBI torture referred to
"Robert Blitzer, a former head of the FBIs counter-terrorism section".
Does anybody know if he's related to journalist Wolf Blitzer?

Re: And another one bites the dust, another one down, another one down


On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 11:30 PM, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 08:30 PM 10/21/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> I saw the Sturgeon General explaining that "we now have better 
>> treatment methods."
>
> Depends a lot on which strain it is - some varieties of anthrax are
> treatable by penicillin and some other common antibiotics,
> while others are resistent and need Cipro.
> Unfortunately, telling them apart takes a couple of days of culturing,
> during which time your patient dies if you guessed wrong,
> but apparently the penicillins do a much better job when they work
> without being anywhere near as nasty for the patient.

No, this is not the difference.


--Tim May

--Tim May
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only 
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from 
the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for 
the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with 
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy 
always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler

Re: Why Plan-9 licensing?

on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 08:30:19PM -0500, Jim Choate ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> > Summer, June/July, IIRC.  I've done a couple of look-ups since.  There's
> > been little additional news or information (I'm not saying none, I'm
> > saying little).  OpenBSD, a relatively little-known free 'nix, gets
> > rather more press and community coverage.
> 
> You need to be on the mailing list. There is almost constant changes.
> You can also visit the wiki link at Bell Labs for the most current
> info.

I'll stop by.

> > proposed licenses and terms.  I'm rather convinced that novelty, all
> > else being equal, is bad.
> 
> Can't disagree more.

Care to expand (off list if you wish).  It's an area of interest.

Nutshell argument:  license interactions are factorial.  Interaction
complexity reduces overall value of a codebase, and tends to marginalize
minority licenses.

By various methods (Debian package listings, Sourceforge projects), the
GPL or LPGL are applied to some 84% of free software.  A tally from
January of this year:

Of the roughly 8,800 listed projects with a license on SourceForge:

8,384 are based on an OSI approved license.  
  208 are based on an other or proprietary license. 
  235 are public domain.  

Of the OSI licenses, the breakdown is as follows (note that results may
vary daily as projects are added and removed):

GNU GPL:6,178   74%
GNP LGPL: 844   10%
BSD:  4806%
Artistic: 3024%
MozPL:1141%
MIT:  1101%
Python:781%
QPL:   601%
zlib/libpng:   461%
IBM-PL:101%
MITRE (CVW):40%

As mentioned, 84% of projects are licensed under the GPL.  Compatibly
licensed projects include software under the BSD (revised) terms, MIT,
Artistic, and Python (most recent) licenses.  Major QPL projects are
licensed compatibly with the GPL.  Major MozPL projects are licensed
compatibly with the GPL.  Given some room for variance (there are
non-compatible BSD, and MozPL projects), some 90-95% of projects are
likely licensed under terms compatible with the GNU GPL.
Noncompatibility puts you in a rather small mindshare camp, with a
serious sacrifice of network effects (Metcalfe's Law).

This does assume that a project's intent is to become relatively widely
used and supported by broad mindshare.  As these are among the principle
technical advantages offered by free software / open source, it's not an
advantage to discard lightly.

Per the FSF's analysis, Plan 9 is, again, not open source, free
software, or GPL compatible.  This is a significant strategic handicap.
Moreover, the bulk of terms in the Plan 9 license serve the corporate
interests of the software's owner -- there's little quid pro quo for the
developer or community.  This is typical of corporate licenses,
particularly first drafts.  The evolution of IBM's own Jikes licensing
is instructive.

If the code exists for its own purposes, it may not matter.  From a
broader community perspective, you could do better.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

 PGP signature

Re: Karsten M. Self shows himself to be clueless, again


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 10:26:55PM -0700, Tim May ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Sunday, October 21, 2001, at 06:34 PM, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> > gpg: Invalid passphrase; please try again ...
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

<...>

> Jesus fucking Christ, if you're going to subject us to all of your PGP, 
> GPG, GnuPG1.0.6 crud, at least get your fucking password straight, you 
> fucking moron.
> 
> "gpg: Invalid passphrase: please try again..."
> 
> Fucking creep. Where's that sniper rifle, Bob?

Dammit Tim, this is *my* cornfield.

So, let's get this straight:

  - RFC 2015 encoded, striped by lne:  fucking moron.
  - Clearsigned:  fucking moron.

Hey:  Tim's internally consistent!

Peace.

- -- 
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE708DsOEeIn1XyubARAviYAKCCjmxkxecXYyP9wv+ahehp8z1dOQCeNSYO
BuBAhI2nsTt7vzi+NhHt/F4=
=K980
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: Retribution not enough

2001-10-21 Thread Julian Assange


> I'm actually surprised to see Steve launch into a critique of laissez-faire 
> capitalism here on cypherpunks, of all places. One can admit that 
> globalization has ill effects (mostly, bricks through windows of Starbucks 
> thrown by bored, upper-middle-class, college-age protesters), certainly. 
> But when responding to claims that factory workers in poorer countries are 
> only being paid $2/hour or whatnot, it makes sense to ask: Is this worse 
> than their other alternatives, like mud huts in villages?
> 
> To argue against people voluntarily entering into market-based transactions 
> with each other is so a-economical and contrary to cypherpunk philosophies* 
> -- wlel, I just don't think it's worth taking the time to go any further in 
> a response.

Declan, Declan.

Put away your straw man. There are alternative's other than huts
and two dollars an hour (which is high, btw).  Nobel ecconomic
laureates have been telling us for years to be careful about
idealised market models and to start looking at players not as mere
as capital and labour but as information processing nodes.

This years Nobel for Economics won by George A. Akerlof, A.  Michael
Spence and Joseph E. Stiglitz "for their analysis of markets with
assymetric information" is typical.

You don't need a Nobel to realise that the relationship between a
large employer and employee is brutally assymetric. One entity
knows far more about the rules of the negotiation than the other.
There's you as a prospective employee and then there's the local
workplace monopoly with hundreds of industrial relations lawyers,
psychologists, and other assorted strategists who'll hand you a
document thick with legalese and tell you where to sign. Without
a legal team, you'll never understand it or the political connections
backing it up.  And even if you do there's a million other mugs to
choose from who won't.

To counter this sort of assymetry. Employees naturally start trying
to collectivise to increase their information processing and
bargaining power. That's right. UNIONS Declan. Those devious entities
that first world companies and governments have had a hand in
suppressing all over the third world by curtailing freedom of
association, speech and other basic political rights we take for
granted.

--
 Julian Assange|If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
   |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery

Plan 9 Products


http://www.vitanuova.com/plan9/licensing.html
-- 

 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

RE: Has Steve Schear earned killing? Verdict is out.

2001-10-21 Thread Blanc


>From Tim, Killer Cypherpunk, in a couple of posts about a half-hour apart:

:Free people are free to fire those who form communal organizations. 
:Anyone who disagrees with this point has earned killing.

 [and]

:Fucking creep. Where's that sniper rifle, Bob?
-



Someone told me that, deep down, Tim is really a sensitive kinda guy.


  ..
Blanc

Re: Why Plan-9 licensing?