GUARANTEED way to instantly have EXCELLENT CREDIT!!

[mike1]

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Yes! I deserve excellent credit. Please enroll me in the Proven Credit Advantage 
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is for our records only and does not need to be your new credit file information.


First Name

Last Name_

Address___

City__

State_

Zip_

No Subject

[a_z55]

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---

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---

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---

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---

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---

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---
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form to (520) 438-2702
--

THIS FORM MUST BE COMPLETELY FILLED OUT!

Contact Name: _
Business Name:  __
Business Type:  __
# Years in Business:  _
Address: _
City:   State: __  Zip: __
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Email Address: ___
Phone:  __Fax:  

---

Re: "Survivability of a minarchist society"

[Marcel Popescu]

X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: "Jim Choate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> > I'm afraid that jail can be seen as closer to torture - even a
libertarian
> > jail. [Claustrofobia, lack of one's family, and so on.] I think I'd give
> > someone a choice between being shot and being put to jail :)
>
> There are many 'jails', and many of them are not torture.

Having to stay away from your family, especially when you're young, is
probably perceived as torture. [I know I don't like being alone in the US,
and I've only been here for 6 weeks.]

> > BS. I want some companies to email me. We need a SMTP / POP system with
> > signatures / e-cash (technological solution, as opposed to legal). If
> > someone has a signature that my server accepts, it passes - otherwise,
if it
> > has e-cash in a certain amount, it also passes, otherwise it goes to
> > /dev/null. [Of course, this is just a rough idea, a well-thought
protocol
> > would be way more complicated.]
>
> The only BS is your wanting to abuse me for your own gain.
>
> Then go hunt for them. Your right to read does not mean you have a right
> to send crap to me in the hopes YOU will get something useful out of it.

As usual, you're confusing me for someone else. Have you seen me complaining
about spam? Ever? I just suggested a technical solution instead of a legal
one. I don't have a problem (especially with a T1 at work... ).

Mark




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Re: how EXACTLY does this protect privacy?

[Marcel Popescu]

X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> an economy based on "nyms" is a pipe dream. No human has ever purchased
> a car, or purchased a home, or taken out a loan, or started a business,
> or gotten a job by using an anonymous "nym". Any significant economic
> transaction, in both the real world and the virtual, requires
accountability,

Wow... did you ever buy something on the internet? Do you think that "George
Bush" has any meaning more than [EMAIL PROTECTED] ?

> and accountability is only engendered through identity, not anonymity.
> (the anarchists, I'm sure, will cringe, but it IS a sobering fact
> of this reality that we all live in)

You have forgot to define "accountability". I don't need to know who you are
to make a note "sold another Anarchist Cookbook, got $25". If you mean
something like "getting back to the buyer if the check bounces", then use
cash. If you mean something like "getting back to the seller if the
merchandise sucks, or doesn't arrive", then use trusted sellers, escrows
(and 100 other options, I'm sure).

> it seems a more appropriate use of cryptography to enhance privacy
> would be to make sure that any transaction I partake in is REALLY
> done by me.. identity theft is the worst privacy violation in this world,
>  not IP logging...

Since there's no meaningful definition of "REALLY done by me"... You are a
nym, as far as I'm concerned; if I trust X, and X says "it's ok, the
merchandise has arrived, you can pay him", then I'll pay you. I don't need
to know your name, address, or SSN for that.

> privacy IS NOT synonymous w/ anonymity (again, the anarchists will
> cringe, but it's another sobering fact of reality), but rather with
> controlling the personal information that the world DOES come to know
about
> you..

You can't control that information. You don't even have the RIGHT to control
information that exists in other people's heads (or computers, or files).

> Can ZKS/Privada disclose to me the personally identifying information
> Web sites (and other corporations, organizations, etc) have collected
> about me?

Can? Yes. May? Yes, unless you have a contract with them that says
otherwise.

> Can I find out for what purposes this information is being
> used?

Probably, with some effort.

> Can I make sure it is only being used for the reason I disclosed,
> and not for other reasons I didn't approve?

I doubt that. In fact, I think it's impossible. In fact, I like that it's
impossible - it's THEIR information now, and you shouldn't have the ability
to prevent someone from using something THEY own. (Unless, once again, you
have contracted otherwise with them.)

> Can I make sure this
> information is accurate and consistent?

Same here.

> Can I delete my personal
> info from a corporate database if I find they have been misuing it??

Doubt it. If by "misuse" you mean "they broke a contract", you should have
the ability to sue them (or otherwise deter this from happening). However,
if you mean something like "I haven't told them anything, but now I found
out that they gave they information to someone who's eyes I don't like",
then I hope you cannot do this.

> Can ZKS/Privada stop the phone calls at 7am from my credit card
> company, who just "wants to make sure the personal info they have
> about me is correct, oh, and my the way, can we interest you in
> a balance transfer from your Discover card while we have you on the
line?"?

I doubt it. I'm sure this was a rethorical question :)

> I'm a newbie to the whole field of encryption, so please enlighten
> me if I'm missing something about "zerk-knowledge" proofs...

This has nothing to do with encryption.

Mark




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RE: Fw: "Survivability of a minarchist society" CPUNK

[Trei, Peter]

You forgot:

 * Add a keyword to the subject line.

   This has several good properties.
1. Easily implemented in all mailers. Many users, for good or
bad reasons, have to work with incompetant mailers which
prevent PGP encryption, adding X-Header lines, etc.
2. Automatically carries over into replies.
3. Nearly all mail readers allow filtering on keywords in the
subject line.
Thus, filtering can be performed at both the level of the
individual
reader, or at the CDR node. 
4. Placed at the end of the subject line, it preserves lexical
sorts.
5. Does not require a poster to be subscribed.
6. Works fine through anonymizers, remailers, ZKS, etc.
7. It's a proven technique, borrowed from Usenet.

   It also has two bad properties::

1. It is butt-ugly.
2. Some regular list posters may refuse to use it, so you'd have
to check the non-keyworded messages anyway (or set up
special filtering inclusion rules for them).

Peter Trei

PS: Quite honestly, while the current level of spam is annoying, I filter
it by hand pretty fast - once I realized that anything from 'sparklist'
was garbage, the rest of its messages got deleted unread in a few seconds.

pt 
> --
> From: David Marshall[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Reply To: David Marshall
> Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 4:18 PM
> To:   Multiple recipients of list
> Subject:  Re: Fw: "Survivability of a minarchist society"
> 
> Options and their problems:
> 
> * Requiring mail be encrypted to a list key. The CDR nodes decrypt it
>   and send it out unencrypted. This will totally eliminate the kinds
>   of attacks we've been experiencing. Unfortunately, poor integration
>   of PGP with mailers causes problems.
> * Allow only postings from addresses subscribed to any one of the CDR
>   nodes, and from remailers. Some people have a problem with this. It
>   would involve keeping a master list of subscribed addresses and
>   permissible unsubscribed (i.e. remailer) addresses. Requires coding,
>   and some people don't like it.
> * Require PGP signing of messages to the list. This presents the same
>   problem as requiring that mail to the list be encrypted to the CDR
>   network, and presents a big problem with anonymity and plausible
>   deniability at the same time.
> * Reject mail from [EMAIL PROTECTED] This will eliminate some of
>   the problem, but only temporarily. Attackers will start spamming
>   other CDRs. People signing up for validation on lame-ass web sites
>   like the New York Times site will just use another list address. It
>   will, however, alleviate some of the "Do you want a home business?"
>   bullshit.
> 
> 
> 

Re: Fw: "Survivability of a minarchist society"

[R. A. Hettinga]

At 5:42 PM -0400 on 7/11/00, Eric Murray wrote:


>> * Requiring mail be encrypted to a list key. The CDR nodes decrypt it
>>   and send it out unencrypted. This will totally eliminate the kinds
>>   of attacks we've been experiencing. Unfortunately, poor integration
>>   of PGP with mailers causes problems.
>
>
> I like that one.  You can subscribe ("subscrive") and receive the list,
> but if you can't figure out PGP, you can't post.  It'd reduce the number
> of clueless posts, increase the use of PGP (or whatever mail-encrypting
> technology you want to use) and increase the amount of PGP-encoded cover
> trafmessages.

Eric Hughes wanted to do that in, what, late 1994 or so. It went over like
a lead balloon.

I expect that it might be a different story, now, to the effect that lots
of people know how to use PGP, though nobody does except for still largely
ceremonial reasons, and that the reason we'd be doing it now is not
PGP/crypto-evangelism per se, as was Eric's intent, but to control spam,
which, when it existed back then, was more, um, political (okay,
psychiatrical :-)), than commercial.

Again, if anybody bothered to do it, it should be more in the form of
people doing their *own* filtering on the existence of a PGP signature than
any top down control of the list(s) it/themselves.

$.002

Cheers,
RAH
-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

dutch crypto accelerator chip and compaq

[David Honig]

eet.com 10 Jul 2000 p 32

Pinjenburg Securealink [US|Europe] has a 
secure crypto module (battery backed ram, ARM, RNG, other stuff?)
keeps secrets on chip; developed for banks, will sell to Compaq.








  

Foreigners with guns

[Marcel Popescu]

Can a foreign citizen legally own a gun in the US? [More to the point, I'm
in Georgia.] I've tried looking around the web (NRA, Google...) but nobody
talks about us poor foreigners :) [Even if I manage to remain in the US for
a while, I don't intend to apply for citizenship.]

Mark

Tim May (was Re: ZKS: how EXACTLY does this protect privacy?)

[Marcel Popescu]

X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: "Greg Newby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Since Tim May likes insulting people publicly, I decided to broadcast
> my retort.  If you don't like harsh language and people insulting each
> other, you'll want to skip this note.

Yeah, Tim is quite an idiot lately (a few years)? He mainly lives from the
reputation he managed to build in the past. He sounds too much like a
fucking socialist who must have everything his way (people he doesn't like
need killing, and so on).

I'd really be glad to see some valuable contribution from him... something
new, not written 5 years ago.

[While I can understand how someone can become rather enraged after
repeating the same thing the millionth time, he could simply shut up.]

Mark




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Re: Foreigners with guns

[David Honig]

At 11:56 AM 7/12/00 -0400, Marcel Popescu wrote:
>Can a foreign citizen legally own a gun in the US? [More to the point, I'm
>in Georgia.] I've tried looking around the web (NRA, Google...) but nobody
>talks about us poor foreigners :) [Even if I manage to remain in the US for
>a while, I don't intend to apply for citizenship.]
>
>Mark

A *legal* resident may do so.

But IANAL check the US laws.  Or easier, ask the motivated: call
a gun shop.  They want your $ but not to lose their license.  

Your english is probably better than most of the yokels.










  

Re: how EXACTLY does this protect privacy?

[Kevin Elliott]

>>  Can I make sure it is only being used for the reason I disclosed,
>>  and not for other reasons I didn't approve?
>
>I doubt that. In fact, I think it's impossible. In fact, I like that it's
>impossible - it's THEIR information now, and you shouldn't have the ability
>to prevent someone from using something THEY own. (Unless, once again, you
>have contracted otherwise with them.)

That's an interesting point.  Somewhere along the way we decided that 
individuals had a "right" to control the information corporations 
were/are gathering about them.  This belief seems to be evolving 
toward government enforced privacy laws.  The thing that strikes me 
however is that the original right is by no means obvious.  The 
information being gathered is not secret, nor is the information 
being gathered (generally speaking) using inherently illegal (or 
immoral) techniques.  The real world analogs to these activities 
(where they exist) also do not seem to have any inherent 
illegalities.  It seems to me that we have no inherent right to 
control the information gathered by any other person/organization. 
If an the information was gathered under false pretenses or is being 
used in a way contrary to it's originally stated purpose the one can 
sue for fraud and/or breach of contract.  Otherwise ones best defense 
is to take proactive action against the intrusion by carefully 
controlling what information you give out (both intentionally and 
unintentionally).  All Freedom.net is is a tool for facilitating that 
control.
-- 

Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
 ICQ#23758827
___
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas

Re: how EXACTLY does this protect privacy?

[Tim May]

At 1:10 AM -0400 7/13/00, Kevin Elliott wrote:
>  >>  Can I make sure it is only being used for the reason I disclosed,
>>>   and not for other reasons I didn't approve?
>>
>>I doubt that. In fact, I think it's impossible. In fact, I like that it's
>>impossible - it's THEIR information now, and you shouldn't have the ability
>>to prevent someone from using something THEY own. (Unless, once again, you
>>have contracted otherwise with them.)
>
>That's an interesting point.  Somewhere along the way we decided that
>individuals had a "right" to control the information corporations
>were/are gathering about them.

Who's this "we" you are talking about?

If you mean many of the sheeple, this much is true. If you mean 
libertarians and most on this list, it is certainly not true.


>This belief seems to be evolving
>toward government enforced privacy laws.  The thing that strikes me
>however is that the original right is by no means obvious.  The
>information being gathered is not secret, nor is the information
>being gathered (generally speaking) using inherently illegal (or
>immoral) techniques.  The real world analogs to these activities
>(where they exist) also do not seem to have any inherent
>illegalities.  It seems to me that we have no inherent right to
>control the information gathered by any other person/organization.

Just so.


--Tim May


-- 
-:-:-:-:-:-:-:
Timothy C. May  | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.