Re: [computer-go] UCT vs MC
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm curious about the full width depth and the principal variation depth to compare UCT wilth alpha-beta. The comparison is not so easy to do I think, because using MC as an evaluation function for alpha beta, you have to do several simulations for one evaluation and take the average. So the question is "how many simulations to do" (tradeoff "false alpha-beta cuts"/"depth")? The right should be "the number which makes the stronger player". I did not made such experiments. Perhaps someone did? My old program Viking5 used alphabeta with monte carlo evaluation and alpha-beta search. Valkyria uses UCT and similar code for Monte Carlo evaluation. One cannot compared these programs directly since they do not share code. But I would guess that alkyria would search the principle variation to 20-100% deeper depth than Viking5 would. The cost is that Valkyria might sometimes get stuck on the second best move. In the opening the difference is probably small becuase UCT searches quite uniform, but if there is fighting where critical stones are very unstable the seacrh can get very deep if there are many forcing moves. I know at least one 9x9 position where Valkyria can search forced sequences to 15 ply, but normally perhaps it might get 4-5 meaningful nodes deep where Viking5 would get 3 ply. It is also tricky to compare the principal eval of UCT with alpha-beta because near the leaf the number of visits to the nodes are less than what could be considered "sound" MC-eval. When I print out principal variations I stop as soon as the number of visits for a node is less than 1000. This means that the moves in the pruned principle variation is of high quality. For alpha-beta a similar effect can be seen by choosing different amounts of simulations for the eval. Normally a few 100 simulations is necessary but one could make 1 simulation eval that spits out very deep evals that unfortunately is almost random. -Magnus ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: Time Zones (was Re: [computer-go] KGS Slow tournament)
correct. We have British Summer Time (GMT+1) from Spring to Autumn (Fall), so the Mac widget probably adjusts for that. On 1/1/07, Peter Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: An interesting report. I have a question about a line near the end where you address the two meanings of "UCT": "UCT as applied to times stands for Universal Coordinate Time. It is the same, for most practical purposes including ours, as GMT, Greenwich Mean Time, the time zone based on London, England." I had an experience where I set a Mac OS X "Dashboard Widget" clock to London time, and it was an hour off from UCT. I could only get the correct time by using Dakar as the city. Does London use something like Daylight Savings Time, making London time the same as GMT/UCT only part of the year? Peter Drake Assistant Professor of Computer Science Lewis & Clark College http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ On Dec 23, 2006, at 10:58 AM, Nick Wedd wrote: > I have written up the week's Slow KGS bot tournament. My report, > which is fuller than usual, is at > http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/s1/index.html > > I think that, despite various accidents, the event was a success. I > plan to hold another one, but only after the next release of the > KGS server fixes the "five minute rule" bug. > > Congratulations to the winner, MoGoBot19! > > Nick > -- > Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Sho-Dan-level at 9x9
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Hi Chrilly, I find it pretty amazing that even a little money will inspire people to play a computer who wouldn't otherwise. Many years ago my old chess programs were welcome at tournaments, but as soon as players started losing, the program wore out it's welcome! The change was like night and day. We came to one tournament and almost everyone signed the "refuse to play a computer list." So I offered 5 dollars for a draw and 10 dollars for a win. This tiny incentive caused almost all the players to agree to play the computer and in fact many players begged to play it. What was ironic, was that didn't pay out a single penny but everyone was happy! I don't think you understand how mean Go players are. Many of them have beards because they are too mean to pay for razors. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: Time Zones (was Re: [computer-go] KGS Slow tournament)
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Peter Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes An interesting report. I have a question about a line near the end where you address the two meanings of "UCT": "UCT as applied to times stands for Universal Coordinate Time. It is the same, for most practical purposes including ours, as GMT, Greenwich Mean Time, the time zone based on London, England." I had an experience where I set a Mac OS X "Dashboard Widget" clock to London time, and it was an hour off from UCT. I could only get the correct time by using Dakar as the city. Does London use something like Daylight Savings Time, making London time the same as GMT/UCT only part of the year? In the winter, London uses UCT; in the summer, it uses BST, which is one hour ahead of UCT. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Sho-Dan-level at 9x9
- Original Message - From: "Nick Wedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "computer-go" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Sho-Dan-level at 9x9 In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Hi Chrilly, I find it pretty amazing that even a little money will inspire people to play a computer who wouldn't otherwise. Many years ago my old chess programs were welcome at tournaments, but as soon as players started losing, the program wore out it's welcome! The change was like night and day. We came to one tournament and almost everyone signed the "refuse to play a computer list." So I offered 5 dollars for a draw and 10 dollars for a win. This tiny incentive caused almost all the players to agree to play the computer and in fact many players begged to play it. What was ironic, was that didn't pay out a single penny but everyone was happy! I don't think you understand how mean Go players are. Many of them have beards because they are too mean to pay for razors. Nick -- I thought that the Go and chess community is different. Chrilly ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] January KGS online computer Go Tournament
The January 2007 KGS computer Go tournament will be next Sunday, January 7th, in the European evening and American morning, starting at 17:00 UTC and ending at about 23:00 UTC. The Formal division will be six-round Swiss, and use 9x9 boards with 28 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. The Open division will be four-round Swiss, and use 13x13 boards with 43 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. There are details at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=262 and at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=263. Clean-up at the end of the game is now supported. If your bot does not support clean-up, it risks losing won games to a bot that does support it. To avoid this, you should either arrange for your bot to support clean-up, or for it to capture all dead enemy stones before it passes. Registration is now open. To enter, please read and follow the instructions at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html. The rules are given at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/rules.html. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] January KGS online computer Go Tournament
Why 7.5 points komi on a 9x9 board? The consensus at http://senseis.xmp.net/?HandicapForSmallerBoardSizes seems to be that 5.5 points komi would be fair on a 9x9 board. Terry McIntyre UNIX for hire software development / systems administration / security [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message From: Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: computer-go Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2007 8:50:38 AM Subject: [computer-go] January KGS online computer Go Tournament The January 2007 KGS computer Go tournament will be next Sunday, January 7th, in the European evening and American morning, starting at 17:00 UTC and ending at about 23:00 UTC. The Formal division will be six-round Swiss, and use 9x9 boards with 28 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. The Open division will be four-round Swiss, and use 13x13 boards with 43 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. There are details at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=262 and at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=263. Clean-up at the end of the game is now supported. If your bot does not support clean-up, it risks losing won games to a bot that does support it. To avoid this, you should either arrange for your bot to support clean-up, or for it to capture all dead enemy stones before it passes. Registration is now open. To enter, please read and follow the instructions at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html. The rules are given at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/rules.html. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] January KGS online computer Go Tournament
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, terry mcintyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Why 7.5 points komi on a 9x9 board? Because I am using Chinese rules, and they specify komi of 7.5 points. The consensus at http://senseis.xmp.net/?HandicapForSmallerBoardSizes seems to be that 5.5 points komi would be fair on a 9x9 board. I see no evidence there of such a consensus. (Even if I did, I would ignore it.) Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] January KGS online computer Go Tournament
On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 09:01 -0800, terry mcintyre wrote: > Why 7.5 points komi on a 9x9 board? The consensus at > http://senseis.xmp.net/?HandicapForSmallerBoardSizes seems to be that 5.5 > points komi would be fair on a 9x9 board. > Hi Terry, I studied a few hundred thousand games from CGOS, the 9x9 computer game server and it appears that 7.5 is the correct komi. When weaker programs play, 7.5 gives a slight advantage but that all indicates that 7.5 is correct. When random programs play, 5.5 gives about even chances. - Don > Terry McIntyre > UNIX for hire > software development / systems administration / security > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - Original Message > From: Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: computer-go > Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2007 8:50:38 AM > Subject: [computer-go] January KGS online computer Go Tournament > > The January 2007 KGS computer Go tournament will be next Sunday, January > 7th, in the European evening and American morning, starting at 17:00 UTC > and ending at about 23:00 UTC. > > The Formal division will be six-round Swiss, and use 9x9 boards with 28 > minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. The Open > division will be four-round Swiss, and use 13x13 boards with 43 minutes > sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. There are details at > http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=262 and at > http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=263. > > Clean-up at the end of the game is now supported. If your bot does not > support clean-up, it risks losing won games to a bot that does support > it. To avoid this, you should either arrange for your bot to support > clean-up, or for it to capture all dead enemy stones before it passes. > > Registration is now open. To enter, please read and follow the > instructions at > http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html. The rules are given at > http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/rules.html. > > Nick ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Sho-Dan-level at 9x9
SlugGo has played in the Cotsen Open the last 2 years in Los Angeles. The program has entered in the 10k bracket against humans. People are allowed to decline being paired against the program because in AGA rules, games against computers do not count towards your official ranking. The games are official in the tournament. The first year the entered programs were SlugGo and Ander's SmartGo, and because we had met the day before the tournament and the programs had played 2 games, we requested that the programs not be paired against each other. The first year only one person declined to be paired, only because he lived in a remote place and got very few official games. The second year several people expressed a desire not to be paired against SlugGo, and I think it was partly because SlugGo beat an 8k the first year. It was looking like SlugGo was not going to be paired in the last round, so I told the tournament director that he should tell people that SlugGo had hit a bug that had caused it to crash in all previous games, and eventually he found someone willing to get the probable win. The Cotsen Open has a cash prize for the best computer program, which I felt somewhat guilty accepting after loosing all games due to the bug, but SlugGo was the only program entered this year, and the cash did help to offset the cost of renting the wheelchair van with hydraulic ramp that I needed to transport the cluster. Cheers, David On 1, Jan 2007, at 10:02 AM, Don Dailey wrote: Hi Chrilly, I find it pretty amazing that even a little money will inspire people to play a computer who wouldn't otherwise. Many years ago my old chess programs were welcome at tournaments, but as soon as players started losing, the program wore out it's welcome! The change was like night and day. We came to one tournament and almost everyone signed the "refuse to play a computer list." So I offered 5 dollars for a draw and 10 dollars for a win. This tiny incentive caused almost all the players to agree to play the computer and in fact many players begged to play it. What was ironic, was that didn't pay out a single penny but everyone was happy! - Don On Mon, 2007-01-01 at 18:53 +0100, Chrilly wrote: For Suzie I try for 9x9 to establish a Dan-ranking at the next European Championship in Villach/Austria. Do you mean that you are planning to enter it for a regular "human" Go event? Have you checked that the organisers will allow this? I once entered Professor Chen's HandTalk for a human Go tournament which I was organising, in Oxford. I received no complaints from its opponents, but several from stronger players, and from British Go Association officials, who asked me never to do this again. Nick I am in touch with the organizers. They have asked me to give a lecture about computer-go. Maybe one can organize around this a 9x9 match humans against Suzie. Some sort of practical lecture. One has to give the humans some (small) incentive to take the match serious. E.g. at the Vienna chess open I played once with Nimzo Blitz. Every player had to pay 1$. The money was put in a pot and the first winner of a game got the pot. This was extremly popular and some players even went away during their games to hit the jack-pot. I do not plan to play in the official part of the tournament. There is up to my knowledge anyway no 9x9 tournament and if it is, an EC is for humans and not for computers. Chrilly ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Sho-Dan-level at 9x9
On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 18:51 -0800, David Doshay wrote: > SlugGo has played in the Cotsen Open the last 2 years in Los Angeles. > The program has entered in the 10k bracket against humans. People > are allowed to decline being paired against the program because in > AGA rules, games against computers do not count towards your > official ranking. The games are official in the tournament. The first > year the entered programs were SlugGo and Ander's SmartGo, and > because we had met the day before the tournament and the programs > had played 2 games, we requested that the programs not be paired > against each other. > > The first year only one person declined to be paired, only because he > lived in a remote place and got very few official games. The second > year several people expressed a desire not to be paired against SlugGo, > and I think it was partly because SlugGo beat an 8k the first year. And if Go players are like Chess players, a tiny monetary reward would probably have sufficed to cause most to want to play. In my case there was no reward for playing, only for winning - which perhaps makes it more enticing! Part of the reason I quite playing in human chess tournaments was the Las Vegas atmosphere. I always came to play chess, but the tournaments promised big prize money (or nobody would come) and during the whole debacle people gathered around the pairing boards with their calculators to see how much money they might win if things just happen to fall their way. There were always a few "sand-baggers", to the point that most of us even knew who they were but couldn't prove it. They would play in local rated games and get their ratings down as low as possible, then come to big money tournaments to try to win class prizes. We caught several of them because we recognized them and they had different names than before. What was odd, is that the class prize money was not so high that it was worth the effort. An honest job had a much higher monetary expectancy. You would have to work your butt off for a long weekend just for a chance to win prize money. These guys usually didn't win because it's hard to win a class prize even if you are better on average than your opposition and there were a lot of players competing. Not to mention that they might be competing with other sand-baggers. I never quite understood the whole thing and what motivated these people.But it worked to my advantage when I discovered all I had to do was offer them 5 dollars and suddenly they came alive. The craziest thing of all was when one guy screamed bloody murder about having to play the computer - he had not signed the no-computer list. His face turned red, he literally caused an ugly scene and it was embarrassing. He was screaming and shouting loudly and caused quite a scene. I was embarrassed for him wondering what kind of parents must have raised such a misfit.For some reason, he didn't realize that I had offered the money - in the heat of the moment I didn't remind his of this because he was so adamant about not playing the computer. I didn't want him sitting across from me and I wasn't trying to convince him to play.He found out later I was offering money and came back screaming again even louder, but the TD had already changed his pairing. He was now equally angry about NOT getting to play the computer and the TD was disgusted with him - he wanted it changed back. I had never before directly observed such awful behavior from a 30 year old man.This was back in the days when a 2300 USCF master like he was had a reasonable expectation of beating the computer, so it was all about the money, not any higher principles. He claimed higher principles initially, "I didn't come here to play computers, I came here to play humans." I also wondered how such an irrational unreasonable person could be such a strong player, but this is actually pretty common among really strong chess players, who tend to be mentally unstable for some reason I cannot fathom. - Don > It was looking like SlugGo was not going to be paired in the last round, > so I told the tournament director that he should tell people that SlugGo > had hit a bug that had caused it to crash in all previous games, and > eventually he found someone willing to get the probable win. > > The Cotsen Open has a cash prize for the best computer program, > which I felt somewhat guilty accepting after loosing all games due > to the bug, but SlugGo was the only program entered this year, and > the cash did help to offset the cost of renting the wheelchair van > with hydraulic ramp that I needed to transport the cluster. > > Cheers, > David > > > > On 1, Jan 2007, at 10:02 AM, Don Dailey wrote: > > > Hi Chrilly, > > > > I find it pretty amazing that even a little money will inspire people > > to play a computer who wouldn't otherwise. > > > > Many years ago my old chess programs were welcome at tournaments, but
Re: [computer-go] Sho-Dan-level at 9x9
The Cotsen Open has a cash prize for the best computer program, which I felt somewhat guilty accepting after loosing all games due to the bug, but SlugGo was the only program entered this year, and the cash did help to offset the cost of renting the wheelchair van with hydraulic ramp that I needed to transport the cluster. Why does Slu-Go not play remote? E.g the only thing I transported to London for playing against GM Adams was a notebook. The Hydra-Cluster would have been a little bit difficult to transport. Even in Abu-Dhabi the operating is remote. The Hydra-Sheikh sits in his palace and the Cluster is in another part of the town. Its for the chess-engine completly transparent. The engine writes/reads to stdout/stdin. If the GUI is on the same PC, the communication is directly done. When playing remote SSH (Secure Shell) is started and the rest goes as before. Chrilly P.S.: There are some chances that not only Hydra but also Mona Lisa will be placed in Abu-Dhabi. Louvre-III is planned for Abu-Dhabi. (Louvre-II in Atlanta). 1 billion $ is a very convincing argument. Officially are only the plans for Louvre-III, but as I know the Abu-Dhabi Sheiks they will put all effort to get at least for some time Mona Lisa. They always want the best/most exclusive. And I also know from own experience that nobody can resisit the smell of Petro-$. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Sho-Dan-level at 9x9
I never quite understood the whole thing and what motivated these people.But it worked to my advantage when I discovered all I had to do was offer them 5 dollars and suddenly they came alive. Matthias Wuellenweber (the boss of ChessBase) gave the following defintion of a GM: A GM is a very intelligent person which is unable to do some regular work. So your alternative, putting the same effort into a regular work and earning the same or more money does not really exists. I think its not really the money, but the gambling for money which is exiting. As I told before I organized with Nimzo a jackpot bltiz system. When the jackpot reached 500 ATS (50 $) there was a queue of GMs who wanted to play. This was during the tournament and they had their own games running. They did not care about their own games anymore, the only wanted the jackpot. They are gambling-junkies. A lot of German GMs have now practically stopped serious chess and play on internet poker. Chrilly ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
