Re: Stus-List Prop Shaft Strut - Removal, Alignment, and Re-bedding - C&C 36-1 KCB

[Tim Rutherford via CnC-List]

Update.

Shaft was riding hard against the the inside of the packless seal's carbon
stator and hard against the  forward end of the cutless bearing.This all
makes sense, since the shaft has always been hard to turn by hand and is
reflected in the shaft wear patterns.

Local prop shop condemned the propeller shaft and coupling, supplied new
replacements, and installed a new cutless bearing in the strut.

Martec two-blade folding prop is completely serviced and is on it's way
back.

Reassembly: When I test fitted the strut and shaft, the shaft exits the log
too high and to starboard proving the misalignment. Further examination of
the packless seal stator confirms that the shaft was riding in that area. I
ordered a new one (whole packless seal, not just a kit)  too. The face was
also scored and it was worn off-center.

Looks like I'll be re-bedding the strut with better alignment. The plan is
to assemble the shaft and the strut and raise it into position, then shim
the shaft temporarily into the center of the log, to offset the shaft
weight. Then raise the strut to it's existing bed to see which corner makes
contact first and use that one (1) screw for general location for the next
step. Then Ill prepare the bed with thickened epoxy and prepare the strut
with a release agent (or cellophane?). I'll raise the strut until the base
makes contact in the area where that one (1) screw is located and support
it there with only slightly more pressure than it's own weight. I'll fill
the three (3) remaining screw holes with epoxy and let it all set up.
After the epoxy has cured, I'll re-drill the remaining screw holes then
re-bed the whole shebang with sealant.

Concurrently the rudder is almost out to refurbish bearings. Mine has the
bronze thrust plate just under the helmsman's seat in the cockpit but
that's a different thread!

Any shared experience is always welcomed!

--
Tim Rutherford

C&C 36-1 KCB #244 - Chamamé
Tampa, FL
tim.rutherford.m...@gmail.com


On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 6:13 PM Tim Rutherford <
tim.rutherford.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Neil, Matt, Dennis, and Len - thanks for your comments. Really appreciated!
>
> --
> Tim Rutherford
> 
> C&C 36-1 KCB #244 - Chamamé
> Tampa, FL
> tim.rutherford.m...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 7:53 PM Dennis C. via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Couple years ago, I removed Touche's strut to straighten it.  It was a
>> straightforward job.  I did have to remove the fuel tank for access to the
>> nuts.
>>
>> Upon re-install, I used a cone shaped grinding stone to chamfer the 4
>> fastener holes on the underside.  This lets the sealant form an o-ring
>> around the fastener.  I think I used 3M 4200 as the sealant.  I recall I
>> used new fasteners with fender washer, washer and nylon lock nuts.
>>
>> The joint around the perimeter of the strut base was faired with AwlFair,
>> sanded and painted.
>>
>> The alignment was pretty true before removal so I just re-installed
>> without any further ado.  The lack of vibration after completion indicates
>> that the job was successful.  If there had been any vibration, I would have
>> done an alignment.
>>
>> Dennis C.
>> Touche' 35-1#83
>> Mandevile, LA
>>
>> On Nov 28, 2018 9:16 AM, "Tim Rutherford via CnC-List" <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>> Prop shaft strut is weeping around the nuts inside the hull and
>> externally the fairing shows cracks around the perimeter of the strut base
>> although it doesn't feel loose. No slop in the Cutlass bearing. She's on
>> the hard for bottom job and driveline maintenance. I'm interested in your
>> thoughts on how best to proceed to remedy the strut mount leak and cracks
>> in the fairing.
>>
>> From the few posts I have found here, it seems the struts are aligned and
>> bedded onto a hard substrate and that the mounting holes were drilled with
>> a close fit. That said, it seems that to remount the strut all that is
>> required is to remove the fairing material and then simply remove and
>> replace, seal, and re-fair.
>>
>> My questions are:
>> 1.) How best to assess whether comprehensive strut alignment check is
>> necessary i.e., laser, scope, yadda-yadda? I'm thinking that if the shaft
>> slides easily through the remounted strut and into center of the shaft log
>> and seal, and visually appears dead on center through all the above, than I
>> can proceed with the engine alignment. If not what, call a pro? I have more
>> time than money, so DIY work is preferred.
>>
>> 2.) How significant is hull flex on these boats while on the hard? I plan
>> final engine alignment after launch, but could loading on the yard stands
>> cause strut alignment to appear skewed? BTW, I'm working with an
>> independent Yanmar mechanic for the engine mounts and alignment.
>>
>> 2.) What material for fairing and sealing the strut bed? What's the
>> method of application?
>>
>> The prop is a folding Martec two-blade RH17DX10P-3 Eliptec with 4" of
>> clearance to the hull; found 

Re: Stus-List Prop Shaft Strut - Removal, Alignment, and Re-bedding - C&C 36-1 KCB

[Stephen Thorne via CnC-List]

I suggest wax paper vs cellophane

On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 8:07 AM Tim Rutherford via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Update.
>
> Shaft was riding hard against the the inside of the packless seal's carbon
> stator and hard against the  forward end of the cutless bearing.This all
> makes sense, since the shaft has always been hard to turn by hand and is
> reflected in the shaft wear patterns.
>
> Local prop shop condemned the propeller shaft and coupling, supplied new
> replacements, and installed a new cutless bearing in the strut.
>
> Martec two-blade folding prop is completely serviced and is on it's way
> back.
>
> Reassembly: When I test fitted the strut and shaft, the shaft exits the
> log too high and to starboard proving the misalignment. Further examination
> of the packless seal stator confirms that the shaft was riding in that
> area. I ordered a new one (whole packless seal, not just a kit)  too. The
> face was also scored and it was worn off-center.
>
> Looks like I'll be re-bedding the strut with better alignment. The plan is
> to assemble the shaft and the strut and raise it into position, then shim
> the shaft temporarily into the center of the log, to offset the shaft
> weight. Then raise the strut to it's existing bed to see which corner makes
> contact first and use that one (1) screw for general location for the next
> step. Then Ill prepare the bed with thickened epoxy and prepare the strut
> with a release agent (or cellophane?). I'll raise the strut until the base
> makes contact in the area where that one (1) screw is located and support
> it there with only slightly more pressure than it's own weight. I'll fill
> the three (3) remaining screw holes with epoxy and let it all set up.
> After the epoxy has cured, I'll re-drill the remaining screw holes then
> re-bed the whole shebang with sealant.
>
> Concurrently the rudder is almost out to refurbish bearings. Mine has the
> bronze thrust plate just under the helmsman's seat in the cockpit but
> that's a different thread!
>
> Any shared experience is always welcomed!
>
> --
> Tim Rutherford
> 
> C&C 36-1 KCB #244 - Chamamé
> Tampa, FL
> tim.rutherford.m...@gmail.com
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 6:13 PM Tim Rutherford <
> tim.rutherford.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Neil, Matt, Dennis, and Len - thanks for your comments. Really
>> appreciated!
>>
>> --
>> Tim Rutherford
>> 
>> C&C 36-1 KCB #244 - Chamamé
>> Tampa, FL
>> tim.rutherford.m...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 7:53 PM Dennis C. via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Couple years ago, I removed Touche's strut to straighten it.  It was a
>>> straightforward job.  I did have to remove the fuel tank for access to the
>>> nuts.
>>>
>>> Upon re-install, I used a cone shaped grinding stone to chamfer the 4
>>> fastener holes on the underside.  This lets the sealant form an o-ring
>>> around the fastener.  I think I used 3M 4200 as the sealant.  I recall I
>>> used new fasteners with fender washer, washer and nylon lock nuts.
>>>
>>> The joint around the perimeter of the strut base was faired with
>>> AwlFair, sanded and painted.
>>>
>>> The alignment was pretty true before removal so I just re-installed
>>> without any further ado.  The lack of vibration after completion indicates
>>> that the job was successful.  If there had been any vibration, I would have
>>> done an alignment.
>>>
>>> Dennis C.
>>> Touche' 35-1#83
>>> Mandevile, LA
>>>
>>> On Nov 28, 2018 9:16 AM, "Tim Rutherford via CnC-List" <
>>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Prop shaft strut is weeping around the nuts inside the hull and
>>> externally the fairing shows cracks around the perimeter of the strut base
>>> although it doesn't feel loose. No slop in the Cutlass bearing. She's on
>>> the hard for bottom job and driveline maintenance. I'm interested in your
>>> thoughts on how best to proceed to remedy the strut mount leak and cracks
>>> in the fairing.
>>>
>>> From the few posts I have found here, it seems the struts are aligned
>>> and bedded onto a hard substrate and that the mounting holes were drilled
>>> with a close fit. That said, it seems that to remount the strut all that is
>>> required is to remove the fairing material and then simply remove and
>>> replace, seal, and re-fair.
>>>
>>> My questions are:
>>> 1.) How best to assess whether comprehensive strut alignment check is
>>> necessary i.e., laser, scope, yadda-yadda? I'm thinking that if the shaft
>>> slides easily through the remounted strut and into center of the shaft log
>>> and seal, and visually appears dead on center through all the above, than I
>>> can proceed with the engine alignment. If not what, call a pro? I have more
>>> time than money, so DIY work is preferred.
>>>
>>> 2.) How significant is hull flex on these boats while on the hard? I
>>> plan final engine alignment after launch, but could loading on the yard
>>> stands cause strut alignment to appear skewed? BTW, I'm working with 

Re: Stus-List Spinnaker Running Rigging

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

We move crew fore and aft so the water exits the clean from the bottom of
the transom without curling.  Max water line without a stern curl is our
philosophy.  It's the responsibility of the helmsperson to glance down
every now and then to monitor stern curl.

For the same reason we may move crew across boat to maintain minimum 10-12
degrees of heel.  Max waterline.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 9:16 PM Donald Kern via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Alan, I find that my 35 Mk2 is sensitive to crew forward  of the mast,
> thus the only time I like to have crew forward of the mast is for sail set
> ups and sail changes.  Thus in spinnaker take down I have one person in
> cabin and two hauling the chute down.  Normal racing crew is 6 or 7.  Also
> race on a J30 and find on her that crew forward is good and only have two
> aft of the cabin companionway (helm & mainsheet/tactician), Normal crew on
> her is the same, 6 or 7.
>
> Would also like to know what others think about fore-aft trim on the older
> C&Cs.
> Don Kern
> Fireball C&C 35 MK2
> Bristol, RI
>
>
> On 12/7/2018 7:00 PM, ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List wrote:
>
> My arrangement is similar to yours, Don. The spinnaker guy has a shackle
> with a large bale The sheet is attached to the guy and the guy is attached
> to the spinnaker clew. I have a two or three inch diameter disk on the guy
> just aft of the shackle which prevents the shackle from getting caught in
> the jaws of the pole. My guy goes to a pad-eye just aft of the shrouds, and
> the sheet to a block on the rail all the way aft. When dropping the chute,
> we drop it under the jib, and down the forward hatch. That keeps the
> companionway clear, and the spinnaker doesn't tangle with the cockpit crew.
>
> Alan Bergen
> 35 Mk III Thirsty
> Rose City YC
> Portland, OR
> Don Kern via CnC-List 
> 1:08 PM (2 hours ago)
>
> Reply
> to cnc-list, Don
>
> I race quite a bit (more than I cruise) and I have not used the reaching
> strut in years, though it carried below on the shelf above the v-berth.  We
> use both a sheet and a guy attached to each clue.  The sheet is lead to a
> turning blocks at the aft most opening on the toe rail, the guy is lead to
> a snatch block on the toe rail about a foot aft of the lower-aft shroud,
> then inboard aft to the cockpit.  In light air we will drop the guy and
> just go with the sheet.  The shackle of the guy is normally hooked into the
> ring of the sheet's shackle. For spinnaker take downs we grab the lazy guy,
> easy since there is no tension on it, lead it over the life line down the
> companionway into cabin. Then let the pole go forward and blow the sheet's
> shackle (guy is hooked into the sheet) and haul the chute down behind the
> main. Two other advantages with this arrangement is that with the guy led
> into the toe rail amidships it also acts as a pole downhaul and when
> running dead before the wind, in very heavy blow we choke the spinnaker
> with the lazy guy to inhibit death roles.
> Don Kern
> Fireball C&C35 MK2
> Bristol, RI
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Speaker...

[John Conklin via CnC-List]

I am in would love to hear it sounds great both of them

John Conklin
S/V Halcyon

On Dec 7, 2018, at 9:17 AM, Chris Graham via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Amazing!


Sent from Yahoo Mail for 
iPhone


On Friday, December 7, 2018, 9:12 AM, David via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

All,

I was recently introduced to the gentlemen who sailed across the Atlantic on 
his C&C 27 Mk 5 in 1992.

He has graciously accepted my offer to have him speak  of his experience to our 
group via conference call.

Is there interest?


David F. Risch, J. D.

Gulf Stream Associates, LLC

(401) 419-4650

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Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3)

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

Michael:

I assume that you sent your note below about there being no exception for 
reaching struts before I sent my note about Case 97.  I don’t know who decides 
cases arising under the Rules these days (I used to follow Cases and US Sailing 
Appeals), but it used to be the ISAF Racing Rules Committee (International 
Sailing Federation).  I believe the organization is now called World Sailing or 
something.  When a Case is decided, that establishes how a Rule is to be 
interpreted unless there is a contrary US Sailing prescription (on my side of 
the pond).  I assume that Canada has a similar prescription process.

After your note about reaching struts yesterday, I searched 
RacingRulesOfSailing.org to see if any cases had been decided under Rule 50.3 
about reaching struts being a prohibited outrigger.  I found Case 97, which 
interpreted the term “outrigger” as used in Rule 50.3 to not prohibit “jockey 
poles” because they redirect the guy, not a sheet or a sail.  A jockey pole is 
the same thing as a reaching strut, so I do not understand your follow-up 
comment below that you “have not found an exception.”  Case 97 clearly 
interprets the term “outrigger” as not applying to jockey poles (i.e., reaching 
struts).  Am I missing something?

Matt Wolford
C&C 42 Custom

From: Michael Brown via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 5:55 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Michael Brown 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement

The topic of outriggers came up a while back and I asked specifically about any 
disclaimers
for a reaching strut. I agree that it is a safety and rigging saving 
consideration as opposed to
something that improves performance. I have not found an exception so it looks 
like it falls
under the outrigger classification.

Telling racers that they cannot lean over the lifelines and hold a jib out 
because outriggers
are not permitted usually draws a blank stare also.

Somewhat related are other clubs appointing a technical committee in observance 
of
RRS 60.4?  I am the PHRF handicapper at a Toronto club, the National Yacht 
Club, so
took on that role also. No protests so far, I felt that gentle education of the 
rules was
required first. We have about 200 senior members ( skippers ) and got just over 
90
PHRF certificates issued this year. Experience levels range from the world 
champions
in the Beneteau First 36.7 OD, first in IRC and LO300 to never have raced 
before.

It makes deciding on what to enforce a bit difficult. Particularly when it 
doesn't make sense.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C&C 30-1





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Stus-List Speaker...

[John Christopher via CnC-List]

I’m in!

/John

> On Dec 8, 2018, at 10:39 AM, John Conklin  wrote:
> 
> I am in would love to hear it sounds great both of them
> 
> John Conklin 
> S/V Halcyon 
> 
> On Dec 7, 2018, at 9:17 AM, Chris Graham via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
>> Amazing!
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> On Friday, December 7, 2018, 9:12 AM, David via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> All,
>> 
>> I was recently introduced to the gentlemen who sailed across the Atlantic on 
>> his C&C 27 Mk 5 in 1992.
>> 
>> He has graciously accepted my offer to have him speak  of his experience to 
>> our group via conference call.
>> 
>> Is there interest?
>> 
>> David F. Risch, J. D.
>> Gulf Stream Associates, LLC  
>> (401) 419-4650 
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   
>> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fstumurray&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4e41f38758bc48b9aae408d65c4ed670%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636797891000417378&sdata=f2%2BJn0898%2BrQJuNv4rLeOkhm%2BZFOt6T8owHpubIHVfM%3D&reserved=0
>> 
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Re: Stus-List Spinnaker Running Rigging

[Dave. via CnC-List]

On SLY, the prior owner was all about weight forward. They moved the batteries 
forward to under the V-birth port side and added a second fuel tank under the 
settee to starboard and would keep the aft tank empty.  When we acquired the 
boat we kept these changes and also lengthened the tiller a bit so the helmsman 
sits against the house. Except during tacks and jibes and sail trims the crew 
is forward of the helmsman but concentrated just forward of her. We get good 
boat speed out of this arrangement. In the day when we raced regularly we 
seldom raced with a full compliment of crew and were lucky to have 4. In our 
opinion this arrangement is most effective in light and medium air, while going 
to windward. Down wind, not so much. Just my thoughts.
Dave.
SLY
1975 C&C 33

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 8, 2018, at 6:42 AM, Dennis C. via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> We move crew fore and aft so the water exits the clean from the bottom of the 
> transom without curling.  Max water line without a stern curl is our 
> philosophy.  It's the responsibility of the helmsperson to glance down every 
> now and then to monitor stern curl.
> 
> For the same reason we may move crew across boat to maintain minimum 10-12 
> degrees of heel.  Max waterline.
> 
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
> 
>> On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 9:16 PM Donald Kern via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> Alan, I find that my 35 Mk2 is sensitive to crew forward  of the mast, thus 
>> the only time I like to have crew forward of the mast is for sail set ups 
>> and sail changes.  Thus in spinnaker take down I have one person in cabin 
>> and two hauling the chute down.  Normal racing crew is 6 or 7.  Also race on 
>> a J30 and find on her that crew forward is good and only have two aft of the 
>> cabin companionway (helm & mainsheet/tactician), Normal crew on her is the 
>> same, 6 or 7.  
>> Would also like to know what others think about fore-aft trim on the older 
>> C&Cs.
>> 
>> Don Kern
>> Fireball C&C 35 MK2
>> Bristol, RI
>> 
>>> On 12/7/2018 7:00 PM, ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List wrote:
>>> My arrangement is similar to yours, Don. The spinnaker guy has a shackle 
>>> with a large bale The sheet is attached to the guy and the guy is attached 
>>> to the spinnaker clew. I have a two or three inch diameter disk on the guy 
>>> just aft of the shackle which prevents the shackle from getting caught in 
>>> the jaws of the pole. My guy goes to a pad-eye just aft of the shrouds, and 
>>> the sheet to a block on the rail all the way aft. When dropping the chute, 
>>> we drop it under the jib, and down the forward hatch. That keeps the 
>>> companionway clear, and the spinnaker doesn't tangle with the cockpit crew.
>>>  
>>> Alan Bergen
>>> 35 Mk III Thirsty
>>> Rose City YC
>>> Portland, OR
>>> 
>>> Don Kern via CnC-List 
>>> 1:08 PM (2 hours ago)
>>> 
>>> Reply
>>> 
>>> to cnc-list, Don
>>> 
>>> I race quite a bit (more than I cruise) and I have not used the reaching 
>>> strut in years, though it carried below on the shelf above the v-berth.  We 
>>> use both a sheet and a guy attached to each clue.  The sheet is lead to a 
>>> turning blocks at the aft most opening on the toe rail, the guy is lead to 
>>> a snatch block on the toe rail about a foot aft of the lower-aft shroud, 
>>> then inboard aft to the cockpit.  In light air we will drop the guy and 
>>> just go with the sheet.  The shackle of the guy is normally hooked into the 
>>> ring of the sheet's shackle. For spinnaker take downs we grab the lazy guy, 
>>> easy since there is no tension on it, lead it over the life line down the 
>>> companionway into cabin. Then let the pole go forward and blow the sheet's 
>>> shackle (guy is hooked into the sheet) and haul the chute down behind the 
>>> main. Two other advantages with this arrangement is that with the guy led 
>>> into the toe rail amidships it also acts as a pole downhaul and when 
>>> running dead before the wind, in very heavy blow we choke the spinnaker 
>>> with the lazy guy to inhibit death roles.
>>> Don Kern
>>> Fireball C&C35 MK2
>>> Bristol, RI
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> 
>>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
_

Re: Stus-List Speaker...

[Eric Frank via CnC-List]

This is a great idea.  If he would like a “speakers fee”, each of us who 
listens could make a contribution. I would be happy to make one myself.
Eric Frank
Cat's Paw

> All,
> I was recently introduced to the gentlemen who sailed across the Atlantic on 
> his C&C 27 Mk 5 in 1992.
> He has graciously accepted my offer to have him speak  of his experience to 
> our group via conference call.
> Is there interest?
> David F. Risch, J. D.


___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3)

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

One last thing on this topic: there are two reported cases indicating that a 
person leaning out holding a sheet is also not an outrigger.

From: Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 12:09 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Matthew L. Wolford 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3)

Michael:

I assume that you sent your note below about there being no exception for 
reaching struts before I sent my note about Case 97.  I don’t know who decides 
cases arising under the Rules these days (I used to follow Cases and US Sailing 
Appeals), but it used to be the ISAF Racing Rules Committee (International 
Sailing Federation).  I believe the organization is now called World Sailing or 
something.  When a Case is decided, that establishes how a Rule is to be 
interpreted unless there is a contrary US Sailing prescription (on my side of 
the pond).  I assume that Canada has a similar prescription process.

After your note about reaching struts yesterday, I searched 
RacingRulesOfSailing.org to see if any cases had been decided under Rule 50.3 
about reaching struts being a prohibited outrigger.  I found Case 97, which 
interpreted the term “outrigger” as used in Rule 50.3 to not prohibit “jockey 
poles” because they redirect the guy, not a sheet or a sail.  A jockey pole is 
the same thing as a reaching strut, so I do not understand your follow-up 
comment below that you “have not found an exception.”  Case 97 clearly 
interprets the term “outrigger” as not applying to jockey poles (i.e., reaching 
struts).  Am I missing something?

Matt Wolford
C&C 42 Custom

From: Michael Brown via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 5:55 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Michael Brown 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement

The topic of outriggers came up a while back and I asked specifically about any 
disclaimers
for a reaching strut. I agree that it is a safety and rigging saving 
consideration as opposed to
something that improves performance. I have not found an exception so it looks 
like it falls
under the outrigger classification.

Telling racers that they cannot lean over the lifelines and hold a jib out 
because outriggers
are not permitted usually draws a blank stare also.

Somewhat related are other clubs appointing a technical committee in observance 
of
RRS 60.4?  I am the PHRF handicapper at a Toronto club, the National Yacht 
Club, so
took on that role also. No protests so far, I felt that gentle education of the 
rules was
required first. We have about 200 senior members ( skippers ) and got just over 
90
PHRF certificates issued this year. Experience levels range from the world 
champions
in the Beneteau First 36.7 OD, first in IRC and LO300 to never have raced 
before.

It makes deciding on what to enforce a bit difficult. Particularly when it 
doesn't make sense.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C&C 30-1





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Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3)

[coltrek--- via CnC-List]

Never thought there was any question to that. If you're using a boat-hook, that 
is obviously illegal, but as far as you can reach, has always been legal, at 
least to my recollection. ?

Bill
On Saturday, December 8, 2018 Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List 
 wrote:
One last thing on this topic: there are two reported cases indicating that a 
person leaning out holding a sheet is also not an outrigger. From: Matthew L. 
Wolford via CnC-List Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 12:09 PMTo: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Matthew L. Wolford Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching 
Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3) Michael: I assume that you sent your 
note below about there being no exception for reaching struts before I sent my 
note about Case 97.  I don’t know who decides cases arising under the Rules 
these days (I used to follow Cases and US Sailing Appeals), but it used to be 
the ISAF Racing Rules Committee (International Sailing Federation).  I believe 
the organization is now called World Sailing or something.  When a Case is 
decided, that establishes how a Rule is to be interpreted unless there is a 
contrary US Sailing prescription (on my side of the pond).  I assume that 
Canada has a similar prescription process. After your note about reaching 
struts yesterday, I searched RacingRulesOfSailing.org to see if any cases had 
been decided under Rule 50.3 about reaching struts being a prohibited 
outrigger.  I found Case 97, which interpreted the term “outrigger” as used in 
Rule 50.3 to not prohibit “jockey poles” because they redirect the guy, not a 
sheet or a sail.  A jockey pole is the same thing as a reaching strut, so I do 
not understand your follow-up comment below that you “have not found an 
exception.”  Case 97 clearly interprets the term “outrigger” as not applying to 
jockey poles (i.e., reaching struts).  Am I missing something? Matt Wolford 
   C&C 42 Custom From: Michael Brown via CnC-List Sent: Friday, December 07, 
2018 5:55 PMTo: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Michael Brown Subject: Re: Stus-List 
Reaching Strut Pole replacement The topic of outriggers came up a while back 
and I asked specifically about any disclaimersfor a reaching strut. I agree 
that it is a safety and rigging saving consideration as opposed tosomething 
that improves performance. I have not found an exception so it looks like it 
fallsunder the outrigger classification. Telling racers that they cannot lean 
over the lifelines and hold a jib out because outriggersare not permitted 
usually draws a blank stare also. Somewhat related are other clubs appointing a 
technical committee in observance ofRRS 60.4?  I am the PHRF handicapper at a 
Toronto club, the National Yacht Club, sotook on that role also. No protests so 
far, I felt that gentle education of the rules wasrequired first. We have about 
200 senior members ( skippers ) and got just over 90PHRF certificates issued 
this year. Experience levels range from the world championsin the Beneteau 
First 36.7 OD, first in IRC and LO300 to never have raced before. It makes 
deciding on what to enforce a bit difficult. Particularly when it doesn't make 
sense. Michael BrownWindburnC&C 30-1   
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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray