Re: Stus-List CNG tank refill - CNG vs LPG

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

Marinas don’t fill the tanks, they exchange them. It costs over $70 for the 
exchange and more if your old tank is out of hydro. Even more fun is when the 
one you get will be out of hydro before you use it up :(

I used this map to find a station to fill my tank: 
http://www.cngnow.com/stations/Pages/information.aspx

You need to call first, just showing up on the map doesn’t mean the station is 
there, works, and is accessible to the public. The one at BWI airport is the 
one I use. 

 

Joe Della Barba

j...@dellabarba.com  

 

Coquina

C&C 35  MK I

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass 
via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 9:20 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Rick Brass 
Subject: Re: Stus-List CNG tank refill - CNG vs LPG

 

Bill;

 

Your boat, your barbeques grill, and a forklift (or a car outfitted with an LPG 
conversion kit) all burn LPG vapor. But your friend was correct that in that 
vehicle applications all use tanks that are designed to deliver liquid LPG out 
of the tank, instead of vapor. There are both horizontal and vertical tanks for 
forklifts (cars and trucks usually have permanently mounted tanks) that have a 
pickup tube internally that goes to the bottom of the tank. Vapor pressure in 
the top of the tank pushes liquid LPG up the pickup tube and out of the tank 
valve. AFIK, there are no tanks for boats or barbeques that are available for 
horizontal applications because there is no way to ensure the horizontal tank 
would not provide liquid instead of vapor. (Liquid instead of vapor would turn 
your stove into a flame thrower.)

 

What is different in a vehicle application is the regulator, which is a rather 
large two-stage device commonly called a vaporizer. Liquid is delivered to the 
first stage, where pressure is reduced from about 125 PSI to 4 or 5 using 
ambient or engine heat. A second stage regulator further reduces the vapor to 
about 1.5 PSI for delivery to the carburetor (or throttle body injectors) on 
the engine. The two stage process provides better control of the fuel flow for 
consistent engine performance.

 

The boat or barbeque has a 1 stage regulator to provide LPG to the flame, but 
the amount of fuel delivered depends on the pressure in the tank and the 
temperature in the environment.

 

LPG is a different animal than CNG. LPG is a liquid at above something near 
125PSI, or temperatures below about minus 45 or 50 degrees. CNG can only be 
converted to liquid at very high pressures (IIRC something between 4500 and 
6000 PSI) or a few degrees above absolute zero. As Joe pointed out, a CNG tank 
for a boat (or home barbeque) is essentially a diving tank with a different 
regulator, containing gas pressurized to 2500-3000 PSI.

 

CNG is cheap (as Joe said about $2 per fill up), and I think the energy content 
is higher than LPG. But it has never really caught on as a motor fuel for two 
basic reasons – it is difficult to get enough gas squeezed into a tank to give 
you decent run time for a vehicle, and the cost of the compressor/fill station 
needed to fill the tanks is quite high. Before I left the forklift industry, 
the entry level cost of a CNG fill station (essentially a high pressure pump 
that takes the CNG from the city gas line at 3-4PSI and brings it up to 3000 
PSI, and then stores it in a flask for transfer to your mobile CNG tank) was 
around $3000-$3500US for a fill station that  would fill a fuel tank every 
couple of hours. So the only practical application for CNG is something like a 
city bus line where high volume of fuel use and federal subsidies can offset 
the very high capital cost of setting up a fill station.

 

CNG is really nice as a stove fuel. Safer than LPG, higher energy & cooking 
times like you’d get on your stove at home, and cheap. But the cost of creating 
a fill station will probably mean that it’s never going to be convenient to 
refill a CNG tank at a marina or local hardware store. 

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of coltrek via 
CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 3:28 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com  
Cc: coltrek mailto:colt...@verizon.net> >
Subject: Re: Stus-List CNG tank refill location

 

I'm a little out of my area of expertise here, but I tried to get an adapter 
for a forklift propane tank, which is laid sideways. And after talking to a 
friend of mine in the propane business, he told me that forklifts use liquid 
propane which was what happens when you laid on its side, and Flames used vapor 
gas which comes straight up. I think for that reason, there were no adapters 
readily available. Just a thought.

 

Bill Coleman 

C&C 39





 

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Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list

Re: Stus-List CNG tank refill - CNG vs LPG

[detroito91 via CnC-List]

Joe...thanks for the info. Do you have the adapter for fill-ups discussed 
earlier or are they able to hook up to the tank?Jim
 Original message From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
 Date: 1/1/18  10:30 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Joe Della Barba  Subject: Re: 
Stus-List CNG tank refill - CNG vs LPG 
Marinas don’t fill the tanks, they exchange them. It costs over $70 for the 
exchange and more if your old tank is out of hydro. Even more fun is when the 
one you get will be out of hydro before you use it up L I used this map to find 
a station to fill my tank: 
http://www.cngnow.com/stations/Pages/information.aspxYou need to call first, 
just showing up on the map doesn’t mean the station is there, works, and is 
accessible to the public. The one at BWI airport is the one I use.  Joe Della 
barba...@dellabarba.com CoquinaC&C 35  MK IFrom: CnC-List 
[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 9:20 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Rick Brass 
Subject: Re: Stus-List CNG tank refill - CNG vs LPG Bill; Your boat, your 
barbeques grill, and a forklift (or a car outfitted with an LPG conversion kit) 
all burn LPG vapor. But your friend was correct that in that vehicle 
applications all use tanks that are designed to deliver liquid LPG out of the 
tank, instead of vapor. There are both horizontal and vertical tanks for 
forklifts (cars and trucks usually have permanently mounted tanks) that have a 
pickup tube internally that goes to the bottom of the tank. Vapor pressure in 
the top of the tank pushes liquid LPG up the pickup tube and out of the tank 
valve. AFIK, there are no tanks for boats or barbeques that are available for 
horizontal applications because there is no way to ensure the horizontal tank 
would not provide liquid instead of vapor. (Liquid instead of vapor would turn 
your stove into a flame thrower.) What is different in a vehicle application is 
the regulator, which is a rather large two-stage device commonly called a 
vaporizer. Liquid is delivered to the first stage, where pressure is reduced 
from about 125 PSI to 4 or 5 using ambient or engine heat. A second stage 
regulator further reduces the vapor to about 1.5 PSI for delivery to the 
carburetor (or throttle body injectors) on the engine. The two stage process 
provides better control of the fuel flow for consistent engine performance. The 
boat or barbeque has a 1 stage regulator to provide LPG to the flame, but the 
amount of fuel delivered depends on the pressure in the tank and the 
temperature in the environment. LPG is a different animal than CNG. LPG is a 
liquid at above something near 125PSI, or temperatures below about minus 45 or 
50 degrees. CNG can only be converted to liquid at very high pressures (IIRC 
something between 4500 and 6000 PSI) or a few degrees above absolute zero. As 
Joe pointed out, a CNG tank for a boat (or home barbeque) is essentially a 
diving tank with a different regulator, containing gas pressurized to 2500-3000 
PSI. CNG is cheap (as Joe said about $2 per fill up), and I think the energy 
content is higher than LPG. But it has never really caught on as a motor fuel 
for two basic reasons – it is difficult to get enough gas squeezed into a tank 
to give you decent run time for a vehicle, and the cost of the compressor/fill 
station needed to fill the tanks is quite high. Before I left the forklift 
industry, the entry level cost of a CNG fill station (essentially a high 
pressure pump that takes the CNG from the city gas line at 3-4PSI and brings it 
up to 3000 PSI, and then stores it in a flask for transfer to your mobile CNG 
tank) was around $3000-$3500US for a fill station that  would fill a fuel tank 
every couple of hours. So the only practical application for CNG is something 
like a city bus line where high volume of fuel use and federal subsidies can 
offset the very high capital cost of setting up a fill station. CNG is really 
nice as a stove fuel. Safer than LPG, higher energy & cooking times like you’d 
get on your stove at home, and cheap. But the cost of creating a fill station 
will probably mean that it’s never going to be convenient to refill a CNG tank 
at a marina or local hardware store.  Rick BrassWashington, NC   From: CnC-List 
[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of coltrek via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 3:28 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: coltrek 
Subject: Re: Stus-List CNG tank refill location I'm a little out of my area of 
expertise here, but I tried to get an adapter for a forklift propane tank, 
which is laid sideways. And after talking to a friend of mine in the propane 
business, he told me that forklifts use liquid propane which was what happens 
when you laid on its side, and Flames used vapor gas which comes straight up. I 
think for that reason, there were no adapters readily available. Just a 
thought. Bill Coleman C&C 39

 _

Re: Stus-List CNG tank refill location

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Jim;

 

Joe sent a link to an app that shows a refill location in Greensboro, Winston 
Salem, Hillsborough, and several other locations between Greenville and home. I 
suspect you could call a refill location and find out what sort of refill 
nozzle and pressure they offer, and then get an adapter that will let you 
connect your tanks to the nozzle.

 

I was doing a little looking on the net to see what the specs for the nozzles 
are, and ran across the following company that offers both nozzles and 
adapters. Among other things, the have adapters that connect to tank fittings 
that can be used for testing…. And hopefully for filling the tanks.

https://www.weh.us/quick-connectors.html

 

Good luck. And take heart – as seldom as Consuelo actually cooks, full tanks 
should last a long time.

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of 
detroit...@aol.com via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 10:59 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: detroit...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List CNG tank refill location

 

 

This is aimed at the locations on the east coast south of Annapolis.

Looking for re-fill locations for the CNG tanks on board. Does anyone know of 
any sites.  Will be heading south from washington,nc on the icw. So if you know 
of any sites along the way...please let me know.

Thanks...you guys are the greatest.

Jim schwartz

SEA YA!

38 LF

washington nc

 

 

YBoat came with CNG cooking and really don't want to convert.

 

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device 

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List CNG tank refill - CNG vs LPG

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

You need the adapter. As for “they” hooking up, the station I go to is not 
manned by humans. When I called them a lady in New jersey told me they didn’t 
really permit people to fill CNG tanks, but on the other hand no one was there 
to stop me.

You may do better avoiding manned stations, not sure about the others. Some of 
the ones listed on that map are either long gone or for company vehicles on 
their private property.

 

Joe Della Barba

j...@dellabarba.com  

 

Coquina

From: detroito91 [mailto:detroit...@aol.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2018 12:11 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Joe Della Barba 
Subject: Re: Stus-List CNG tank refill - CNG vs LPG

 

Joe...thanks for the info. Do you have the adapter for fill-ups discussed 
earlier or are they able to hook up to the tank?

Jim

 

 Original message 

From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 

Date: 1/1/18 10:30 AM (GMT-05:00) 

To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com   

Cc: Joe Della Barba mailto:j...@dellabarba.com> > 

Subject: Re: Stus-List CNG tank refill - CNG vs LPG 

 

Marinas don’t fill the tanks, they exchange them. It costs over $70 for the 
exchange and more if your old tank is out of hydro. Even more fun is when the 
one you get will be out of hydro before you use it up :(

I used this map to find a station to fill my tank: 
http://www.cngnow.com/stations/Pages/information.aspx

You need to call first, just showing up on the map doesn’t mean the station is 
there, works, and is accessible to the public. The one at BWI airport is the 
one I use. 

 

Joe Della Barba

j...@dellabarba.com  

 

Coquina

C&C 35  MK I

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass 
via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 9:20 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com  
Cc: Rick Brass mailto:rickbr...@earthlink.net> >
Subject: Re: Stus-List CNG tank refill - CNG vs LPG

 

Bill;

 

Your boat, your barbeques grill, and a forklift (or a car outfitted with an LPG 
conversion kit) all burn LPG vapor. But your friend was correct that in that 
vehicle applications all use tanks that are designed to deliver liquid LPG out 
of the tank, instead of vapor. There are both horizontal and vertical tanks for 
forklifts (cars and trucks usually have permanently mounted tanks) that have a 
pickup tube internally that goes to the bottom of the tank. Vapor pressure in 
the top of the tank pushes liquid LPG up the pickup tube and out of the tank 
valve. AFIK, there are no tanks for boats or barbeques that are available for 
horizontal applications because there is no way to ensure the horizontal tank 
would not provide liquid instead of vapor. (Liquid instead of vapor would turn 
your stove into a flame thrower.)

 

What is different in a vehicle application is the regulator, which is a rather 
large two-stage device commonly called a vaporizer. Liquid is delivered to the 
first stage, where pressure is reduced from about 125 PSI to 4 or 5 using 
ambient or engine heat. A second stage regulator further reduces the vapor to 
about 1.5 PSI for delivery to the carburetor (or throttle body injectors) on 
the engine. The two stage process provides better control of the fuel flow for 
consistent engine performance.

 

The boat or barbeque has a 1 stage regulator to provide LPG to the flame, but 
the amount of fuel delivered depends on the pressure in the tank and the 
temperature in the environment.

 

LPG is a different animal than CNG. LPG is a liquid at above something near 
125PSI, or temperatures below about minus 45 or 50 degrees. CNG can only be 
converted to liquid at very high pressures (IIRC something between 4500 and 
6000 PSI) or a few degrees above absolute zero. As Joe pointed out, a CNG tank 
for a boat (or home barbeque) is essentially a diving tank with a different 
regulator, containing gas pressurized to 2500-3000 PSI.

 

CNG is cheap (as Joe said about $2 per fill up), and I think the energy content 
is higher than LPG. But it has never really caught on as a motor fuel for two 
basic reasons – it is difficult to get enough gas squeezed into a tank to give 
you decent run time for a vehicle, and the cost of the compressor/fill station 
needed to fill the tanks is quite high. Before I left the forklift industry, 
the entry level cost of a CNG fill station (essentially a high pressure pump 
that takes the CNG from the city gas line at 3-4PSI and brings it up to 3000 
PSI, and then stores it in a flask for transfer to your mobile CNG tank) was 
around $3000-$3500US for a fill station that  would fill a fuel tank every 
couple of hours. So the only practical application for CNG is something like a 
city bus line where high volume of fuel use and federal subsidies can offset 
the very high capital cost of setting up a fill station.

 

CNG is really nice as a stove fuel. Safer than LPG, high

Re: Stus-List CNG tank refill location

[detroito91 via CnC-List]

RickI was aware of all those locations. Contacted all.some do cars and some 
aren't even in business. Map is not too current.Conswala looked her yearly meal 
today.  I may be safe for another yearJim
 Original message From: Rick Brass via CnC-List 
 Date: 1/1/18  12:29 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Rick Brass  Subject: Re: 
Stus-List CNG tank refill location 
Jim; Joe sent a link to an app that shows a refill location in Greensboro, 
Winston Salem, Hillsborough, and several other locations between Greenville and 
home. I suspect you could call a refill location and find out what sort of 
refill nozzle and pressure they offer, and then get an adapter that will let 
you connect your tanks to the nozzle. I was doing a little looking on the net 
to see what the specs for the nozzles are, and ran across the following company 
that offers both nozzles and adapters. Among other things, the have adapters 
that connect to tank fittings that can be used for testing…. And hopefully for 
filling the tanks.https://www.weh.us/quick-connectors.html Good luck. And take 
heart – as seldom as Consuelo actually cooks, full tanks should last a long 
time. Rick BrassWashington, NC   From: CnC-List 
[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of detroit...@aol.com via 
CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 10:59 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: detroit...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List CNG tank refill location  This is aimed at the locations on 
the east coast south of Annapolis.Looking for re-fill locations for the CNG 
tanks on board. Does anyone know of any sites.  Will be heading south from 
washington,nc on the icw. So if you know of any sites along the way...please 
let me know.Thanks...you guys are the greatest.Jim schwartzSEA YA!38 
LFwashington nc  YBoat came with CNG cooking and really don't want to convert. 
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device ___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List CNG tank refill location

[detroito91 via CnC-List]

Meant to say cooked her yearly meal
 Original message From: detroito91 via CnC-List 
 Date: 1/2/18  12:04 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: detroito91  Subject: Re: 
Stus-List CNG tank refill location 
RickI was aware of all those locations. Contacted all.some do cars and some 
aren't even in business. Map is not too current.Conswala looked her yearly meal 
today.  I may be safe for another yearJim
 Original message From: Rick Brass via CnC-List 
 Date: 1/1/18  12:29 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Rick Brass  Subject: Re: 
Stus-List CNG tank refill location 
Jim; Joe sent a link to an app that shows a refill location in Greensboro, 
Winston Salem, Hillsborough, and several other locations between Greenville and 
home. I suspect you could call a refill location and find out what sort of 
refill nozzle and pressure they offer, and then get an adapter that will let 
you connect your tanks to the nozzle. I was doing a little looking on the net 
to see what the specs for the nozzles are, and ran across the following company 
that offers both nozzles and adapters. Among other things, the have adapters 
that connect to tank fittings that can be used for testing…. And hopefully for 
filling the tanks.https://www.weh.us/quick-connectors.html Good luck. And take 
heart – as seldom as Consuelo actually cooks, full tanks should last a long 
time. Rick BrassWashington, NC   From: CnC-List 
[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of detroit...@aol.com via 
CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 10:59 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: detroit...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List CNG tank refill location  This is aimed at the locations on 
the east coast south of Annapolis.Looking for re-fill locations for the CNG 
tanks on board. Does anyone know of any sites.  Will be heading south from 
washington,nc on the icw. So if you know of any sites along the way...please 
let me know.Thanks...you guys are the greatest.Jim schwartzSEA YA!38 
LFwashington nc  YBoat came with CNG cooking and really don't want to convert. 
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device ___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray