Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Robert Abbott via CnC-List]

Rex:

Below is a description of the window installation project on our C&C 32 
done some years agoI have posted this here several times so for the 
C&C listers that have previously read this, use your 'DELETE' key.  
Trusting this might help and don't use 3M 5200.


Our 1984 - 32 had original side cabin windows that leaked.no matter
what I tried to stop the leaks, it didn't work. The last straw was when
we put new upholstery on the boat in 2009I couldn't put up with
leaks any more.

So in the Spring 2010, while the boat was still under the white
shrinkwrap cover, the decision was made to install new windows.  I first
asked some of the contractors around the boatyard what they would charge
to do the job.most said they wouldn't do it because the windows
don't have frames and/or screws.two problems for the
contractorswithout frames and/or screws, the job is more time
consuming and hard to provide an estimate of time, and second, without
frames and/or screws, they can't guarantee the windows will stay in
place.  I must warn you, this is a time consuming job.

Find a source for your new windowsmake sure they will cut the new
ones for you.take your old ones to be used as templates.  I used the
same material (acrylic) and color as the old windows.

To remove the old windows (OWs), I took a narrow putty knife and cut
about an inch off the blade and then sharpened the blade with a file.
 From the inside, I cut out each window with the putty knife and a
hammer.  Three windows came out without incident.then shit happened
on the port, forward window..I got the sides and bottom cut but I
couldn't easily cut the top of that window.  The original adhesive C&C
used was two part plexus and after 25 years it hardens like resin.as
careful as I was I still managed to push the bottom of the window out
causing the top to come loose and take a strip of gelcoat with it.
Another repair job and another story, and another reason why the
contractors don't like to provide an estimate on these jobs..you
don't know for sure what you are getting yourself in for.

OWs out...cleaned them up and took them to Sabic Polymer to have new
windows cut.same thickness, material, color.  The new windows (NWs)
will have paper on both sidesdon't remove the paper.

Now to clean up the framesthe prep is very importantI used a
drummel tool with a fine bit to remove most of the old adhesive, then a
palm sander, then hand sanded.  Filled any imperfections in the frame
with polyster resin bought at an automotive store.  When the frames are
cleaned, it is time to place the NWs into them (dry, no adhesive) to
determine the actual fit.

Place each NW into its respective frame and from the inside, draw a line
with a marker along the inside of the frame onto the paper on the NW.
You will need to have someone hold the NW from the outside or have the
NW braced...I will get to the bracing shortly.  The inside paper along
the line must be cut from the window with a razor blade or sharp utility
knife.  It is this part on the NW that will be glued to the frame. I
repeat, it is a slow and labor intensive job.patience is required.

When the inside paper along the line has been cut and removed, there
will be about an inch of NW exposed..rough up this exposed glass
with sand paper.

With a good quality masking tape, tape the frames both inside and
outside...do a good job with this as it is important for cleanup.  Also
have plenty of rags for cleanup and a solvent like Varsol.if you use
Sika as the adhesive, it is black and messy.

Now you are ready to begin installing the NWs.  I researched what
adhesive to use and I went with Sikaflex 295 UV and if you choose this
as well, make sure you get the Sikaflex primer.it is expensive, but
don't, I repeat, don't do this without using the Sika primer.

Two tubes of Sika 295 will be sufficient..I had both tubes opened,
each in a caulking gun.one tube I had the end cut to produce a
'triangle bead'.the second tube had the normal small bead.

Take your Sika primer and apply to one frame at a time..then apply
the primer to the NW where you cut the paper from.  Read the
instructions carefully and watch the time between applying the primer
and then the adhesive..I think you should wait about 10 to 20
minutes maximum.

Take the caulking gun with the triangle bead and apply liberally to the
inside of the NW.then take the second gun and apply a bead of Sika
all along the 90 deg. angle of the frame.  Use lots of adhesive.when
you fit the NW into the frame, you want adhesive coming out all around
the window/frame.as such, there will be lots of adhesive and
hopefully no voids between the NW and frame.  I did not use spacers
between the window and frame.  I know it is recommended, I actually had
the spacers but thought against it.  For me, it was just another place
for problems to occur down the road.  Just make sure you use lots of

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Just a note, a vibrating saw with a flexible caulk cutting blade might make 
port removal easier.

Dennis C.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 8, 2015, at 9:03 AM, Robert Abbott via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Rex:
> 
> Below is a description of the window installation project on our C&C 32 done 
> some years agoI have posted this here several times so for the C&C 
> listers that have previously read this, use your 'DELETE' key.  Trusting this 
> might help and don't use 3M 5200.
> 
> Our 1984 - 32 had original side cabin windows that leaked.no matter 
> what I tried to stop the leaks, it didn't work. The last straw was when 
> we put new upholstery on the boat in 2009I couldn't put up with 
> leaks any more.
> 
> So in the Spring 2010, while the boat was still under the white 
> shrinkwrap cover, the decision was made to install new windows.  I first 
> asked some of the contractors around the boatyard what they would charge 
> to do the job.most said they wouldn't do it because the windows 
> don't have frames and/or screws.two problems for the 
> contractorswithout frames and/or screws, the job is more time 
> consuming and hard to provide an estimate of time, and second, without 
> frames and/or screws, they can't guarantee the windows will stay in 
> place.  I must warn you, this is a time consuming job.
> 
> Find a source for your new windowsmake sure they will cut the new 
> ones for you.take your old ones to be used as templates.  I used the 
> same material (acrylic) and color as the old windows.
> 
> To remove the old windows (OWs), I took a narrow putty knife and cut 
> about an inch off the blade and then sharpened the blade with a file. 
>  From the inside, I cut out each window with the putty knife and a 
> hammer.  Three windows came out without incident.then shit happened 
> on the port, forward window..I got the sides and bottom cut but I 
> couldn't easily cut the top of that window.  The original adhesive C&C 
> used was two part plexus and after 25 years it hardens like resin.as 
> careful as I was I still managed to push the bottom of the window out 
> causing the top to come loose and take a strip of gelcoat with it. 
> Another repair job and another story, and another reason why the 
> contractors don't like to provide an estimate on these jobs..you 
> don't know for sure what you are getting yourself in for.
> 
> OWs out...cleaned them up and took them to Sabic Polymer to have new 
> windows cut.same thickness, material, color.  The new windows (NWs) 
> will have paper on both sidesdon't remove the paper.
> 
> Now to clean up the framesthe prep is very importantI used a 
> drummel tool with a fine bit to remove most of the old adhesive, then a 
> palm sander, then hand sanded.  Filled any imperfections in the frame 
> with polyster resin bought at an automotive store.  When the frames are 
> cleaned, it is time to place the NWs into them (dry, no adhesive) to 
> determine the actual fit.
> 
> Place each NW into its respective frame and from the inside, draw a line 
> with a marker along the inside of the frame onto the paper on the NW. 
> You will need to have someone hold the NW from the outside or have the 
> NW braced...I will get to the bracing shortly.  The inside paper along 
> the line must be cut from the window with a razor blade or sharp utility 
> knife.  It is this part on the NW that will be glued to the frame. I 
> repeat, it is a slow and labor intensive job.patience is required.
> 
> When the inside paper along the line has been cut and removed, there 
> will be about an inch of NW exposed..rough up this exposed glass 
> with sand paper.
> 
> With a good quality masking tape, tape the frames both inside and 
> outside...do a good job with this as it is important for cleanup.  Also 
> have plenty of rags for cleanup and a solvent like Varsol.if you use 
> Sika as the adhesive, it is black and messy.
> 
> Now you are ready to begin installing the NWs.  I researched what 
> adhesive to use and I went with Sikaflex 295 UV and if you choose this 
> as well, make sure you get the Sikaflex primer.it is expensive, but 
> don't, I repeat, don't do this without using the Sika primer.
> 
> Two tubes of Sika 295 will be sufficient..I had both tubes opened, 
> each in a caulking gun.one tube I had the end cut to produce a 
> 'triangle bead'.the second tube had the normal small bead.
> 
> Take your Sika primer and apply to one frame at a time..then apply 
> the primer to the NW where you cut the paper from.  Read the 
> instructions carefully and watch the time between applying the primer 
> and then the adhesive..I think you should wait about 10 to 20 
> minutes maximum.
> 
> Take the caulking gun with the triangle bead and apply liberally to the 
> inside of the NW.then take the second gun and apply a bead of Sika 
> all along the 90 deg. angle of the frame.  Use lots of adhesive...

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[O'Keeffe Thomas via CnC-List]

I did add screws and used the sikaflex UV with spacers. Screw holes in the 
window are one drill bit size larger than the screws.  My prior boat (O'Day) 
had the screws from the factory.  Did it 5 years ago. No leaks or cracks. 

Tom O'Keeffe

Bridie Mae
29-2
Douglaston, NY

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[John and Maryann Read via CnC-List]

Rex



This is a topic of MUCH discussion over the years.  Suggest you check the 
photoalbum archives and you will get a lot of good information.



We went the Sikaflex 295 route in 2006, followed the instructions to a “T” and 
no problems so far.  Removing the old windows was a bear and involved a fair 
amount of gel coat damage which involved a lot of effort to repair.  My 
thinking was I never wanted to go through that again so stayed away from the 
Plexus system.  My research also indicated the adhesive industry had progressed 
a lot from when the boat was builtUsed ¼ inch rubber spacers to ensure 
sufficient depth of sealer.  Drilled holes and used screws at each corner to 
hold in place while it cured (at least a week and is sensitive the heat and 
humidity).  Removed the screws and filled with sealer.  Be sure to well tape 
any adjoining surface as the sealer will squeeze out during installation and 
you do not want it to contact any adjoining surface as you will never get the 
black stain out.



Checked my own archives and offer the following for your info.  Hope this helps 
and best of luck



John Maryann & others,



Different strokes for different folks. I went the Sika 295 UV route. It was 
easy to work with, requires no special applicator and has a longer open time is 
easy to clean up afterwards and costs less. Make sure that you use it as 
directed. It must be used in conjunction with their cleaner and primer. The 
primer is formulated to form a tenacious bond with the acrylic and fiberglass 
(I specifically verified with their tech rep that it would also bond with 
epoxy, since that is what I used to repair and fair the window recess). The

295 UV polyurethane forms a tenacious bond to the primed surfaces. You will not 
get a good bond to the acrylic and fiberglass if you don't use the primer.



The thing that convinced me to use this method was that after doing research on 
this list, it appears that after using the Plexus solution ther were people who 
didn't get it quite right and still had small leaks. They were so daunted and 
at the thought of breaking the plexus bond perhaps the acrylic and cost and 
hassle that none of them redid the repair.

If you have to redo a Sika UV bonded window, it will be much easier.



I don't really buy the structural argument either. My window just pushed out.

It had surely not been structurally bonded for many years, but the cabintop has 
not collapsed, nor had I ever noticed it flex when walking on it and I am not a 
small guy.



There is a general opinion on this list that you should almost never bond 
anything with 3m 5200 because almost every job will need to be redone at some 
point and if you used 5200 you are making it harder (if not impossible) to redo 
in the future. I apply this same philosophy to bonding the portlights.

Don't do something that makes this almost impossible to redo.



I have added a few pictures of the primer painted on to the window and recess 
to the [

http://www.user.firstclass.com/~eric/Arioso/Log%20Months/April%202005 ]April

2005 log page on my site.



Here is an excerpy from the March 2005 log page which contains the details of 
some tips that the Sika Tech Rep. gave me.



"I talked with Rick the Tech. Rep. from Sikaflex on the phone. He had the 
following advice about using the Sikaflex 295-UV system. The product numbers in 
Canada are different for some of the components. The Primer is 209N, the 
Cleaner is 205, The adhesive sealant is still 295-UV. The working time of the 
295-UV is about 20 minutes.Try and make the bead about as deep as the mortise. 
Place the bead where it will meet the flat of the acrylic. Match sticks are 
fine as spacers. There are no problems in using this product with epoxy. When 
caulking the outside seam, push the caulking gun along, don't pull it. Smooth 
the seam with a gloved finger dipped in a bucket of water with about four drops 
of dish soap in it."



--

Eric Haberfellner

1979 C&C 34 Arioso

National Yacht Club

Toronto Ontario, Canada

43° 37.9' N, 079° 24.4' W

http://www.user.firstclass.com/~Eric/Arioso







CnC Email List  on Friday, January 27, 2006 at 10:28 
PM -0500 wrote:

>Different schools of thought - go the plexus route or the "soft" sealer

>/ bond route??

>

>Many on the list prefer the Plexus citing the added benefits of

>structural bonding.  I find that hard to accept as my boat and many

>other C&C's in the area have replaced windows where the old ones were

>not well bonded at all so not providing any structural strength and

>with no apparent issues.  Leaks, yes but no structure issues.

>

>Hunter, Sabre, Catalina, Tartan and C&C OEM as well as Select Plastics

>all use one of three comparable "soft" sealer / bond systems

>

>1)  Sika 295 UV - polyurethane sealant / adhesive (specifically

>recommended by the "new" C&C for replacement of "older" C&C windows)

>2)  Dow Corning 795 - silicone building sealant

>3)  GE Silpruf SCS2000 - acrylic bond

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[John Irvin via CnC-List]

Still a fan of double-sided butyl tape.
.

-Original Message-
From: "John and Maryann Read via CnC-List" 
Sent: ‎2015-‎02-‎08 12:02 PM
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

Rex
 
This is a topic of MUCH discussion over the years.  Suggest you check the 
photoalbum archives and you will get a lot of good information.  
 
We went the Sikaflex 295 route in 2006, followed the instructions to a “T” and 
no problems so far.  Removing the old windows was a bear and involved a fair 
amount of gel coat damage which involved a lot of effort to repair.  My 
thinking was I never wanted to go through that again so stayed away from the 
Plexus system.  My research also indicated the adhesive industry had progressed 
a lot from when the boat was builtUsed ¼ inch rubber spacers to ensure 
sufficient depth of sealer.  Drilled holes and used screws at each corner to 
hold in place while it cured (at least a week and is sensitive the heat and 
humidity).  Removed the screws and filled with sealer.  Be sure to well tape 
any adjoining surface as the sealer will squeeze out during installation and 
you do not want it to contact any adjoining surface as you will never get the 
black stain out.
 
Checked my own archives and offer the following for your info.  Hope this helps 
and best of luck
 
John Maryann & others,
 
Different strokes for different folks. I went the Sika 295 UV route. It was 
easy to work with, requires no special applicator and has a longer open time is 
easy to clean up afterwards and costs less. Make sure that you use it as 
directed. It must be used in conjunction with their cleaner and primer. The 
primer is formulated to form a tenacious bond with the acrylic and fiberglass 
(I specifically verified with their tech rep that it would also bond with 
epoxy, since that is what I used to repair and fair the window recess). The
295 UV polyurethane forms a tenacious bond to the primed surfaces. You will not 
get a good bond to the acrylic and fiberglass if you don't use the primer.
 
The thing that convinced me to use this method was that after doing research on 
this list, it appears that after using the Plexus solution ther were people who 
didn't get it quite right and still had small leaks. They were so daunted and 
at the thought of breaking the plexus bond perhaps the acrylic and cost and 
hassle that none of them redid the repair.
If you have to redo a Sika UV bonded window, it will be much easier.
 
I don't really buy the structural argument either. My window just pushed out.
It had surely not been structurally bonded for many years, but the cabintop has 
not collapsed, nor had I ever noticed it flex when walking on it and I am not a 
small guy.
 
There is a general opinion on this list that you should almost never bond 
anything with 3m 5200 because almost every job will need to be redone at some 
point and if you used 5200 you are making it harder (if not impossible) to redo 
in the future. I apply this same philosophy to bonding the portlights.
Don't do something that makes this almost impossible to redo.
 
I have added a few pictures of the primer painted on to the window and recess 
to the [
http://www.user.firstclass.com/~eric/Arioso/Log%20Months/April%202005 ]April
2005 log page on my site.
 
Here is an excerpy from the March 2005 log page which contains the details of 
some tips that the Sika Tech Rep. gave me.
 
"I talked with Rick the Tech. Rep. from Sikaflex on the phone. He had the 
following advice about using the Sikaflex 295-UV system. The product numbers in 
Canada are different for some of the components. The Primer is 209N, the 
Cleaner is 205, The adhesive sealant is still 295-UV. The working time of the 
295-UV is about 20 minutes.Try and make the bead about as deep as the mortise. 
Place the bead where it will meet the flat of the acrylic. Match sticks are 
fine as spacers. There are no problems in using this product with epoxy. When 
caulking the outside seam, push the caulking gun along, don't pull it. Smooth 
the seam with a gloved finger dipped in a bucket of water with about four drops 
of dish soap in it."
 
--
Eric Haberfellner
1979 C&C 34 Arioso
National Yacht Club
Toronto Ontario, Canada
43° 37.9' N, 079° 24.4' W
http://www.user.firstclass.com/~Eric/Arioso
 
 
 
CnC Email List  on Friday, January 27, 2006 at 10:28 
PM -0500 wrote:
>Different schools of thought - go the plexus route or the "soft" sealer 
>/ bond route??
> 
>Many on the list prefer the Plexus citing the added benefits of 
>structural bonding.  I find that hard to accept as my boat and many 
>other C&C's in the area have replaced windows where the old ones were 
>not well bonded at all so not providing any structural strength and 
>with no apparent issues.  Leaks, yes but no structure issues.
> 
>Hunter, Sabre, Catalina, Tartan and C&C OEM as well as Select Plastics 
>all use one of three comparable "soft" sealer / bond systems
> 
>1)  Sika 295 UV - polyure

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

That won’t work on the frameless windows; only the aluminum-framed ones on the 
earlier boats.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Feb 8, 2015, at 1:19 PM, John Irvin via CnC-List  
wrote:

> Still a fan of double-sided butyl tape.

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Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[John Read via CnC-List]

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App-Original Message-From: cnc-list@cnc-list.comTo: cnc-list@cnc-list.com,john.ir...@rogers.comCc: Sent: 2015-02-08 14:33:35 GMTSubject: Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41That won’t work on the frameless windows; only the aluminum-framed ones on the earlier boats.
Fred Street -- MinneapolisS/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Feb 8, 2015, at 1:19 PM, John Irvin via CnC-List  wrote:Still a fan of double-sided butyl tape.___

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Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Gary Zuehlke via CnC-List]

Would the butyl tape work on frameless windows that were attached by
screws?  What about bolts all the way through to some nice wood trim that
would "clamp" the cabin top sides between the windows and interior trim?

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:45 PM, John Read via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>
>
> -Original Message-
>
> From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com,john.ir...@rogers.com
> Cc:
> Sent: 2015-02-08 14:33:35 GMT
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41
>
> That won’t work on the frameless windows; only the aluminum-framed ones on
> the earlier boats.
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
>
> On Feb 8, 2015, at 1:19 PM, John Irvin via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
> Still a fan of double-sided butyl tape.
>
>
> ___ Email address:
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> unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at:
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>
>
>
>
> ___
>
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> bottom of page at:
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>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

That might work; but butyl’s NOT an adhesive, so you would definitely need the 
screws/bolts.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Gary Zuehlke via CnC-List  
wrote:

> Would the butyl tape work on frameless windows that were attached by screws?  
> What about bolts all the way through to some nice wood trim that would 
> "clamp" the cabin top sides between the windows and interior trim?

___

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Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

We have the frameless windows and did the replacement last Spring. We used 3M 
fuselage tape - and although the prep was a lot of work, we are very pleased 
with the end result. 


All the best,

Edd

---
Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
NCC-1701-B
C&C 37+ | City Island, NY
www.StarshipSailing.com
---
914.332.4400  | Office
914.774.9767  | Mobile
---
Sent via iPhone 6
iPhone. iTypos. iApologize

On Feb 8, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 wrote:

That might work; but butyl’s NOT an adhesive, so you would definitely need the 
screws/bolts.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

> On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Gary Zuehlke via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Would the butyl tape work on frameless windows that were attached by screws?  
> What about bolts all the way through to some nice wood trim that would 
> "clamp" the cabin top sides between the windows and interior trim?

___

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