Re: Clojure as first language

2016-02-26 Thread Terje Dahl
Blake.

Would you elaborate on this last comment about Smalltalk?
What did you do?
What was the outcome relative to expectations?
What were some good and bad aspects of Smalltalk?
And how might this compare to Clojure?
Any links/references?

Terje


On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 9:29:10 PM UTC+1, blake watson wrote:
 

> I've had good luck with Smalltalk.
>

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Re: Clojure as first language

2016-02-26 Thread Terje Dahl
Michael.

I what ways do the teaching languages in Racket differ from Clojure?
What would *you* "hide" or change in Clojure to make a more suitable 
teaching language?
Based on the Racket languages...
Based on your experiences and/or opinions...


Terje


On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 8:55:13 AM UTC+1, Michael Sperber wrote:
 

> tl;dr: No, Clojure is not an ideal language for teaching beginners.  For 
> teaching beginners, you should use a language specifically engineered 
> for beginners, such as the teaching languages that come with Racket. 
> (The transition to Clojure from these languages should be quite easy, 
> though.) 
>

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Re: Clojure as first language

2016-02-26 Thread Terje Dahl
Elango.


The turtle graphics concept is often used as a basic teaching tool.  Logo, 
Scratch, etc.
It seems easy to understand for children, and is a good way to get started.

I have some additional questions to that, though:
How long before children get tired (bored) with the concept?
How would one move on from Turtle graphics?
What other concepts or paradigms might also be used?
Are there other different approaches that might work equally well (or 
better)?
Any personal ideas/suggestions?

Terje


On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 10:31:27 PM UTC+1, Elango wrote:
 

> You should also look at clojure-turtle, which is a port of Logo into 
> Clojure:
> https://github.com/google/clojure-turtle
>
> We often use Logo to teach kids how to program for the first time, and 
> Logo is a Lisp (!).  Logo has reinforced its relevance with Scratch, which 
> is a GUI-based, less-textual version of Logo.  So we should be able to 
> connect Logo to Clojure without too much contortion, and we should also be 
> able to use the turtle graphics paradigm to teach kids & beginners Clojure. 
>  
>
> Those are the motivations for the clojure-turtle project.  
>

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Re: Clojure as first language

2016-02-26 Thread Terje Dahl
Val.

You (and others) mention Clojure Bridge.
I am familiar with the concept.
But do you know where I might find one or more compendiums or course 
curriculums used as part of Clojure Bridge?

Terje


On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 12:45:52 PM UTC+1, Val Waeselynck wrote:
 

> And of course, let's not forget about Clojure Bridge 
> !
>

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Re: Clojure as first language

2016-02-26 Thread Terje Dahl
Lee.

About the confusion with parens - do you mean that an output-ed list/seq 
looks exactly like a callable s-expression?
Please elaborate.

Terje


On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 5:23:42 PM UTC+1, Lee wrote:
>
>
> One little feature of the core language itself that I find to be difficult 
> for beginners is the way that regular parentheses () are used in printed 
> values for different data types... But I know this can't change, and I 
> don't know if anything can be done to make that less confusing.
>
>

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Re: Clojure as first language

2016-02-26 Thread Gary Verhaegen
On Friday, 26 February 2016, Terje Dahl  wrote:

> Lee.
>
> About the confusion with parens - do you mean that an output-ed list/seq
> looks exactly like a callable s-expression?
> Please elaborate.
>
> Terje
>

Yes. If you print the list (1 2 3) it prints as a callable form, and then
you have to get into reading, evaluation, etc.

Aphyr's Clojure tutorial series went there. IIRC the second or third
chapter was devoted to that.

On the other hand, in the Racket curriculum, they define limited subsets of
Scheme used as teaching languages; when the student first learns about
lists, they construct them using cons and they print as cons forms, i.e.
the (in-memory) list '(1 2) would print as

(cons 1 (cons 2 (cons (

This is the kind of simplifications that are done in the teaching languages
and that allow the course to avoid a number of advanced topics in the
beginning. It avoids a lot of confusion at the cost of a small lie and an
extra effort when you want to introduce macros and the "code is data" idea.
(Which you usually don't want to do in an introductory course anyway.)

For a short (and, I found, very enlightening) peek at the HTDP curriculum,
you can skim through the Systematic Program Design course by Gregor
Kiczales on edX:

https://www.edx.org/xseries/how-code-systematic-program-design

This is by a wide margin the best introductory programming course I have
ever seen.

Re: ClojureBridge, the curriculum is on GitHub:

https://github.com/ClojureBridge/curriculum

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Re: Clojure as first language

2016-02-26 Thread Vardhan
On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 1:58 AM, blake watson  wrote:
> Clojure, in particular, has a weakness in its multi-page stack dumps, and

export JVM_OPTS="-XX:MaxJavaStackTraceDepth=1"

-Vardhan

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Casting bug in clojure

2016-02-26 Thread Petr Yanovich
Hi, there is a minor bug described here

https://github.com/clojure/clojure/pull/59 


Is it a known bug?

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Re: Clojure as first language

2016-02-26 Thread Val Waeselynck
https://github.com/ClojureBridge/curriculum/blob/gh-pages/TEACHING.md

On Friday, 26 February 2016 10:28:41 UTC+1, Terje Dahl wrote:
>
> Val.
>
> You (and others) mention Clojure Bridge.
> I am familiar with the concept.
> But do you know where I might find one or more compendiums or course 
> curriculums used as part of Clojure Bridge?
>
> Terje
>
>
> On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 12:45:52 PM UTC+1, Val Waeselynck wrote:
>  
>
>> And of course, let's not forget about Clojure Bridge 
>> !
>>
>

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Re: Casting bug in clojure

2016-02-26 Thread Alex Miller
That PR links to a stackoverflow which points 
to http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-445, so yes?

On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 7:28:44 AM UTC-6, Petr Yanovich wrote:
>
> Hi, there is a minor bug described here
>
> https://github.com/clojure/clojure/pull/59 
> 
>
> Is it a known bug?
>

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Re: Casting bug in clojure

2016-02-26 Thread Petr Yanovich
Oh! It was added with an edit which I haven't seen :)

Thank you

пятница, 26 февраля 2016 г., 17:07:30 UTC+3 пользователь Alex Miller 
написал:
>
> That PR links to a stackoverflow which points to 
> http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-445, so yes?
>
> On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 7:28:44 AM UTC-6, Petr Yanovich wrote:
>>
>> Hi, there is a minor bug described here
>>
>> https://github.com/clojure/clojure/pull/59 
>> 
>>
>> Is it a known bug?
>>
>

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Re: Clojure as first language

2016-02-26 Thread Lee Spector
Gary: I'm not sure that's actually what I meant, although I'm not 100% sure 
what you mean so I'm not sure :-). FWIW I *do* always want to introduce "code 
is data" to my beginners, albeit with eval, not macros, and I'm generally not 
on board with the whole concept of restricted teaching languages for the 
contexts in which I teach, although I understand that others find them useful.

Terje: What I mean is just that if you type something like (map inc (range 10)) 
into a REPL you'll get (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10), which sure looks like a list but 
is really a lazy sequence. In most cases it doesn't matter, as it behaves as it 
would if it were a list. But sometimes it does matter, e.g. (str '(1 2 3 4 5 6 
7 8 9 10)) => "(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)", whereas (str (map inc (range 10))) => 
"clojure.lang.LazySeq@c5d38b66". I can't recall other specific situations in 
which it matters right now, but usually when I teach a class using Clojure, 
students run into this and are pretty confused. Once they figure out what's 
going on they often think that doall will help, but it doesn't, and I show them 
that they can apply list to the lazy sequence to get a real list. As I said, I 
know this can't change, and it's not the biggest problem in the world. But the 
fact that different kinds of things have identical printed representations is a 
less-than-lovely aspect of the language for beginners, in my experience. One of 
the the few!

 -Lee


> On Feb 26, 2016, at 6:58 AM, Gary Verhaegen  wrote:
> 
> On Friday, 26 February 2016, Terje Dahl  > wrote:
> Lee.
> 
> About the confusion with parens - do you mean that an output-ed list/seq 
> looks exactly like a callable s-expression?
> Please elaborate.
> 
> Terje
> 
> Yes. If you print the list (1 2 3) it prints as a callable form, and then you 
> have to get into reading, evaluation, etc.
> 
> Aphyr's Clojure tutorial series went there. IIRC the second or third chapter 
> was devoted to that.
> 
> On the other hand, in the Racket curriculum, they define limited subsets of 
> Scheme used as teaching languages; when the student first learns about lists, 
> they construct them using cons and they print as cons forms, i.e. the 
> (in-memory) list '(1 2) would print as
> 
> (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons (
> 
> This is the kind of simplifications that are done in the teaching languages 
> and that allow the course to avoid a number of advanced topics in the 
> beginning. It avoids a lot of confusion at the cost of a small lie and an 
> extra effort when you want to introduce macros and the "code is data" idea. 
> (Which you usually don't want to do in an introductory course anyway.)
> 
> For a short (and, I found, very enlightening) peek at the HTDP curriculum, 
> you can skim through the Systematic Program Design course by Gregor Kiczales 
> on edX:
> 
> https://www.edx.org/xseries/how-code-systematic-program-design 
> 
> 
> This is by a wide margin the best introductory programming course I have ever 
> seen.
> 
> Re: ClojureBridge, the curriculum is on GitHub:
> 
> https://github.com/ClojureBridge/curriculum 
> 
> 
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Re: [ANN] As I was missing this kind of library in clojure I created relational_mapper for dealing with querying relational databases

2016-02-26 Thread James Reeves
Why "find_all" instead of "find-all"?

- James

On 26 February 2016 at 06:51, Krzysiek Herod 
wrote:

> I created Relational Mapper, for situations where there is a relational
> database with certain amount of relations between tables and it's just not
> cool to fetch data from each table separately nor to write custom code for
> each such project so, with this library, you can just call:
>
> (find_all db-state :posts #{:authors :attachments} [:= post.id 1])
>
> and assuming you have appropriate relations between these tables, you'll get:
>
> {:posts {:title "Christmas"
>  :body "Merry Christmas!"
>  :id 1
>  :authors_id 10
>  :authors {:name "Rudolf" :id 10}
>  :attachments [{:name "rudolf.png" :id 100 :posts_id 1}
>{:name "santa.png" :id 101 :posts_id 1}]
>
>
> The code is here: https://github.com/netizer/relational_mapper
>
> Please, guys, let me know what do you think, and if you have any ideas
> about improvements. If somebody would be so kind to take a look at the
> code, it would be awesome to read some feedback.
>
> Krzysiek Heród
>
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Re: Clojure as first language

2016-02-26 Thread Steve Miner

> On Feb 26, 2016, at 9:53 AM, Lee Spector  wrote:
> 
> But sometimes it does matter, e.g. (str '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)) => "(1 2 3 4 
> 5 6 7 8 9 10)", whereas (str (map inc (range 10))) => 
> "clojure.lang.LazySeq@c5d38b66"

There’s a bit of subtlety around `str` vs. `pr-str`.  In many case, pr-str will 
give more intuitive results.  Unfortunately, it’s not easy for beginners to 
discover.

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Re: [ANN] As I was missing this kind of library in clojure I created relational_mapper for dealing with querying relational databases

2016-02-26 Thread Krzysiek Herod
Oh, that was only a typo in the documentation and in the post. I changed 
the README.md, and as there were some other minor changes, I released 
version 0.2.0. 

Thanks James for letting me know :-)

On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 1:34:19 AM UTC+8, James Reeves wrote:
>
> Why "find_all" instead of "find-all"?
>
> - James
>
> On 26 February 2016 at 06:51, Krzysiek Herod  > wrote:
>
>> I created Relational Mapper, for situations where there is a relational 
>> database with certain amount of relations between tables and it's just not 
>> cool to fetch data from each table separately nor to write custom code for 
>> each such project so, with this library, you can just call: 
>>
>> (find_all db-state :posts #{:authors :attachments} [:= post.id 1])
>>
>> and assuming you have appropriate relations between these tables, you'll get:
>>
>> {:posts {:title "Christmas"
>>  :body "Merry Christmas!"
>>  :id 1
>>  :authors_id 10
>>  :authors {:name "Rudolf" :id 10}
>>  :attachments [{:name "rudolf.png" :id 100 :posts_id 1}
>>{:name "santa.png" :id 101 :posts_id 1}]
>>
>>
>> The code is here: https://github.com/netizer/relational_mapper
>>
>> Please, guys, let me know what do you think, and if you have any ideas 
>> about improvements. If somebody would be so kind to take a look at the 
>> code, it would be awesome to read some feedback.
>>
>> Krzysiek Heród
>>
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Is there a clojure equivalent of ghc-mod? If not, what are the challenges?

2016-02-26 Thread Sam DeSota

I'm getting to know Clojure and lisps in general and am having a great 
time. I've worked with Haskell before, and using ghc-mod with various tools 
was massively useful. Is there a similar tool for Clojure, and what are the 
challenges if not?

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Re: [ANN] clojurework.com

2016-02-26 Thread Timothy Washington
+1. This looks great.


Tim


On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Higginbotham  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I've released http://clojurework.com/ in beta :) My goal for the site is
> to build a quality community resource for those looking to write Clojure
> for Real Projects, whether paid or open source. It features
> jobs/contracting work/gigs and beginner-friendly open source projects.
>
> Job postings are free while the site's in beta, so please post away! Ads
> will eventually be $75 for 30 days. Open source project listings are free,
> of course.
>
> I'd love any feedback -
>
> * Does the site look useful?
> * Is anything confusing?
> * What would make it better?
>
> If you'd like to send feedback directly to me or if you'd like to talk
> about posting a job, my email is nonrecurs...@gmail.com.
>
> Thanks!
> Daniel
>
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Re: [ANN] clojurework.com

2016-02-26 Thread Sergey Didenko
Thanks,

Search input is a bit misalighned in Safari, iOS 9.2.1 (iPod 5gen) but
still functional.

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 5:10 AM, Timothy Washington 
wrote:

> +1. This looks great.
>
>
> Tim
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Daniel Higginbotham <
> nonrecurs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I've released http://clojurework.com/ in beta :) My goal for the site is
>> to build a quality community resource for those looking to write Clojure
>> for Real Projects, whether paid or open source. It features
>> jobs/contracting work/gigs and beginner-friendly open source projects.
>>
>> Job postings are free while the site's in beta, so please post away! Ads
>> will eventually be $75 for 30 days. Open source project listings are free,
>> of course.
>>
>> I'd love any feedback -
>>
>> * Does the site look useful?
>> * Is anything confusing?
>> * What would make it better?
>>
>> If you'd like to send feedback directly to me or if you'd like to talk
>> about posting a job, my email is nonrecurs...@gmail.com.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Daniel
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Clojure" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com
>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with
>> your first post.
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>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
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>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
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>>
>
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