[Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: [Babel-users] OT: Centralised WebRTC server available for testing

[Dave Taht]

I kind of have an ulterior motive for tracking this work, as A) the
codebase is new, small and not crufty and B) juliusz
sometimes bothers to answer my emails, and C) I don't really have a
grip on the state of webrtc congestion control.

I used to really enjoy dinking with videoconferencing tools. I'll be
getting this server up somewhere, by and by.

-- Forwarded message -
From: Juliusz Chroboczek 
Date: Fri, May 1, 2020 at 4:16 AM
Subject: [Babel-users] OT: Centralised WebRTC server available for testing
To: babel-users 


Hi, and sorry for abusing this list for another off-topic post.

Some of you may remember the peer-to-peer WebRTC server I advertised a few
weeks ago.  While it is still what I recommend for one-on-one conversations
(peer-to-peer is good), I've been working on a centralised solution for
larger groups of people.

We've just tested yesterday a meeting with 12 participants (12 incoming
and 132 outgoing flows), and it held.  So I guess I might as well make it
available.  The demo server is on

  https://vps-63c87489.vps.ovh.net:8443/

It is described on

  https://www.irif.fr/~jch/software/sfu/

The code is available, and will be licensed under a Free license when I'm
ready.

-- Juliusz

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CTO, TekLibre, LLC
http://www.teklibre.com
Tel: 1-831-435-0729
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[Cerowrt-devel] dslreports is no longer free

[Dave Taht]

https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/gbd6g0/dsl_reports_speed_test_no_longer_free/

They ran out of bandwidth.

Message to users here:

http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest


-- 
Make Music, Not War

Dave Täht
CTO, TekLibre, LLC
http://www.teklibre.com
Tel: 1-831-435-0729
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Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Cake] dslreports is no longer free

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Dave,

well, it was a free service and it lasted a long time. I want to raise a toast 
to Justin and convey my sincere thanks for years of investing into the "good" 
of the internet. 

Now, the question is which test is going to be the rightful successor? 

Short of running netperf/irtt/iper2/iperf3 on a hosted server, I see lots of 
potential but none of the tests are really there yet (grievances in now 
particular order):

OOKLA: speedtest.net.
Pros: ubiquitious, allows selection of single flow versus multi-flow 
test, allows server selection
Cons: only IPv4, only static unloaded RTT measurement, no control over 
measurement duration
BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete, maybe usable as load generator


NETFLIX: fast.com.
Pros: allows selection of upload testing, supposedly decent back-end, 
duration configurable
allows unloaded, loaded download and loaded upload RTT 
measurements (but reports sinlge numbers for loaded and unloaded RTT, that are 
not the max)
Cons: RTT report as two numbers one for the loaded and one for unloaded 
RTT, time-course of RTTs missing
BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete, but oh, so close...


NPERF: nperf.com
Pros: allows server selection, RTT measurement and report as time 
course, also reports average rates and static RTT/jitter for Up- and Download
Cons: RTT measurement for unloaded only, reported RTT static only , no 
control over measurement duration
BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete,


THINKBROADBAND: www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest
Pros: IPv6, reports coarse RTT time courses for all three measurement 
phases
Cons: only static unloaded RTT report in final results, time courses 
only visible immediately after testing, no control over measurement duration
BUFFERBLOAT verdict: a bit coarse, might work for users within a 
reasonable distance to the UK for acute de-bloating sessions (history reporting 
is bad though)


honorable mentioning:
BREITBANDMESSUNG: breitbandmessung.de
Pros: query of contracted internet access speed before measurement, 
with a scheduler that will only start a test when the backend has sufficient 
capacity to saturate the user-supplied contracted rates, IPv6 (happy-eyeballs)
Cons: only static unloaded RTT measurement, no control over measurement 
duration
BUFFERBLOAT verdict: unsuitable, exceot as load generator, but the 
bandwidth reservation feature is quite nice.

Best Regards
Sebastian


> On May 1, 2020, at 18:44, Dave Taht  wrote:
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/gbd6g0/dsl_reports_speed_test_no_longer_free/
> 
> They ran out of bandwidth.
> 
> Message to users here:
> 
> http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest
> 
> 
> -- 
> Make Music, Not War
> 
> Dave Täht
> CTO, TekLibre, LLC
> http://www.teklibre.com
> Tel: 1-831-435-0729
> ___
> Cake mailing list
> c...@lists.bufferbloat.net
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Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [Cake] dslreports is no longer free

[Sergey Fedorov via Cerowrt-devel]

--- Begin Message ---
Great review, Sebastian!


> NETFLIX: fast.com.
> Pros: allows selection of upload testing, supposedly decent
> back-end, duration configurable
> allows unloaded, loaded download and loaded upload RTT
> measurements (but reports sinlge numbers for loaded and unloaded RTT, that
> are not the max)
> Cons: RTT report as two numbers one for the loaded and one for
> unloaded RTT, time-course of RTTs missing
> BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete, but oh, so close...

Just a note that I have a plan to separate the loaded latency into
upload/download. It's not great UX now they way it's implemented.
The timeline view is a bit more nuanced, in the spirit of the simplistic
UX, but I've been thinking on a good way to show that for super users as
well.
Two latency numbers - that's more user friendly, we want the general user
to understand the meaning. And latency under load is much easier than
bufferbloat.

As a side note, if our backend is decent, I'm curious what are the backends
for the speed tests that exist that are great :)


SERGEY FEDOROV

Director of Engineering

sfedo...@netflix.com

121 Albright Way | Los Gatos, CA 95032



On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 12:48 PM Sebastian Moeller  wrote:

> Hi Dave,
>
> well, it was a free service and it lasted a long time. I want to raise a
> toast to Justin and convey my sincere thanks for years of investing into
> the "good" of the internet.
>
> Now, the question is which test is going to be the rightful successor?
>
> Short of running netperf/irtt/iper2/iperf3 on a hosted server, I see lots
> of potential but none of the tests are really there yet (grievances in now
> particular order):
>
> OOKLA: speedtest.net.
> Pros: ubiquitious, allows selection of single flow versus
> multi-flow test, allows server selection
> Cons: only IPv4, only static unloaded RTT measurement, no control
> over measurement duration
> BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete, maybe usable as load generator
>
>
> NETFLIX: fast.com.
> Pros: allows selection of upload testing, supposedly decent
> back-end, duration configurable
> allows unloaded, loaded download and loaded upload RTT
> measurements (but reports sinlge numbers for loaded and unloaded RTT, that
> are not the max)
> Cons: RTT report as two numbers one for the loaded and one for
> unloaded RTT, time-course of RTTs missing
> BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete, but oh, so close...
>
>
> NPERF: nperf.com
> Pros: allows server selection, RTT measurement and report as time
> course, also reports average rates and static RTT/jitter for Up- and
> Download
> Cons: RTT measurement for unloaded only, reported RTT static only
> , no control over measurement duration
> BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete,
>
>
> THINKBROADBAND: www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest
> Pros: IPv6, reports coarse RTT time courses for all three
> measurement phases
> Cons: only static unloaded RTT report in final results, time
> courses only visible immediately after testing, no control over measurement
> duration
> BUFFERBLOAT verdict: a bit coarse, might work for users within a
> reasonable distance to the UK for acute de-bloating sessions (history
> reporting is bad though)
>
>
> honorable mentioning:
> BREITBANDMESSUNG: breitbandmessung.de
> Pros: query of contracted internet access speed before
> measurement, with a scheduler that will only start a test when the backend
> has sufficient capacity to saturate the user-supplied contracted rates,
> IPv6 (happy-eyeballs)
> Cons: only static unloaded RTT measurement, no control over
> measurement duration
> BUFFERBLOAT verdict: unsuitable, exceot as load generator, but the
> bandwidth reservation feature is quite nice.
>
> Best Regards
> Sebastian
>
>
> > On May 1, 2020, at 18:44, Dave Taht  wrote:
> >
> >
> https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/gbd6g0/dsl_reports_speed_test_no_longer_free/
> >
> > They ran out of bandwidth.
> >
> > Message to users here:
> >
> > http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest
> >
> >
> > --
> > Make Music, Not War
> >
> > Dave Täht
> > CTO, TekLibre, LLC
> > http://www.teklibre.com
> > Tel: 1-831-435-0729
> > ___
> > Cake mailing list
> > c...@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake
>
> ___
> Bloat mailing list
> bl...@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
--- End Message ---
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Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [Cake] dslreports is no longer free

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Sergey,



> On May 1, 2020, at 22:09, Sergey Fedorov  wrote:
> 
> Great review, Sebastian!
>  
> NETFLIX: fast.com.
> Pros: allows selection of upload testing, supposedly decent back-end, 
> duration configurable
> allows unloaded, loaded download and loaded upload RTT 
> measurements (but reports sinlge numbers for loaded and unloaded RTT, that 
> are not the max)
> Cons: RTT report as two numbers one for the loaded and one for 
> unloaded RTT, time-course of RTTs missing
> BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete, but oh, so close...
> Just a note that I have a plan to separate the loaded latency into 
> upload/download. It's not great UX now they way it's implemented.

Great! I really appreciate the way fast.com evolves carefully to not 
confuse the intended users and to stay true to its core mission while it still 
gaining additional features that are not directly part of Netflix business case 
to operate that test in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love 
that I can easily understand why you should be interested in getting reliable 
robust speedtests from all existing or potential customers to your back-end; 
and unlike an ISP's internal speedtest, you are not likely to sugar coat things 
;) as your goal and the end-user's goal are fully aligned.

> The timeline view is a bit more nuanced, in the spirit of the simplistic UX, 
> but I've been thinking on a good way to show that for super users as well.

Great again! I see the beauty of keeping things simple while maybe 
hiding optional information behind an additional "click".

> Two latency numbers - that's more user friendly, we want the general user to 
> understand the meaning.

+1; for normal users that is already bliss. For de-bloating a link 
however a bit more time resolution generally makes things a bit easier to 
reason about ;)

> And latency under load is much easier than bufferbloat.

+1; as far as I can tell that term sort of was a decent description of 
the observed phenomenon that then got a life of its own; in retrospect it was 
not the most self explanatory term. I like to talk about the 
latency-under-load-increase when helping people to debloat their links, but 
that also is a tad on the long side.

> 
> As a side note, if our backend is decent, I'm curious what are the backends 
> for the speed tests that exist that are great :)

Ah, I might have tried too hard at understatement, this was the only 
back-end worth mentioning in the "pros" section...
(well, I also like how breitbandmessung.de deals with their purposefully 
limited backend (all located in a single" data center in Germany located in an 
AS that is not directly owned by any ISP, it's the german regulators official 
speedtest for germany against which we can effectively measure and get an early 
exit from contracts if the ISPs can not deliver the contracted rates (with a 
bit of slack)))

Best Regards
Sebastian

>  
> SERGEY FEDOROV
> Director of Engineering
> sfedo...@netflix.com
> 121 Albright Way  |  Los Gatos, CA 95032
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 12:48 PM Sebastian Moeller  wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> 
> well, it was a free service and it lasted a long time. I want to raise a 
> toast to Justin and convey my sincere thanks for years of investing into the 
> "good" of the internet. 
> 
> Now, the question is which test is going to be the rightful successor? 
> 
> Short of running netperf/irtt/iper2/iperf3 on a hosted server, I see lots of 
> potential but none of the tests are really there yet (grievances in now 
> particular order):
> 
> OOKLA: speedtest.net.
> Pros: ubiquitious, allows selection of single flow versus multi-flow 
> test, allows server selection
> Cons: only IPv4, only static unloaded RTT measurement, no control 
> over measurement duration
> BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete, maybe usable as load generator
> 
> 
> NETFLIX: fast.com.
> Pros: allows selection of upload testing, supposedly decent back-end, 
> duration configurable
> allows unloaded, loaded download and loaded upload RTT 
> measurements (but reports sinlge numbers for loaded and unloaded RTT, that 
> are not the max)
> Cons: RTT report as two numbers one for the loaded and one for 
> unloaded RTT, time-course of RTTs missing
> BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete, but oh, so close...
> 
> 
> NPERF: nperf.com
> Pros: allows server selection, RTT measurement and report as time 
> course, also reports average rates and static RTT/jitter for Up- and Download
> Cons: RTT measurement for unloaded only, reported RTT static only , 
> no control over measurement duration
> BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete,
> 
> 
> THINKBROADBAND: www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest
> Pros: IPv6, reports coarse RTT time courses for all three measurement 
> phases
> Cons: only static unloaded RTT report in final results, time c

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [Cake] dslreports is no longer free

[Sergey Fedorov via Cerowrt-devel]

--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the kind words, Sebastian!

 +1; for normal users that is already bliss. For de-bloating a link however
> a bit more time resolution generally makes things a bit easier to reason
> about ;)

Apologies, I misunderstood your original statement. I interpreted it as a
vote to keep a single bufferbloat metric (vs loaded/unloaded latency).
Agreed on time resolution and its value. No question it's useful for
diagnostics. Open question is to what extent browser-based tools should be
used for detailed troubleshooting (due to sandboxing limitations), and when
is the time for the big guns (like flent) to enter the scene.

 I like to talk about the latency-under-load-increase when helping people
> to debloat their links, but that also is a tad on the long side.

Fully agree on length, don't like the verboseness as well. Still looking
for a term that is shorter and yet generic enough that I can explain to my
mom.

Ah, I might have tried too hard at understatement, this was the only
> back-end worth mentioning in the "pros" section...

Got it. The breitbandmessung case is indeed interesting.

SERGEY FEDOROV

Director of Engineering

sfedo...@netflix.com

121 Albright Way | Los Gatos, CA 95032



On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 2:11 PM Sebastian Moeller  wrote:

> Hi Sergey,
>
>
>
> > On May 1, 2020, at 22:09, Sergey Fedorov  wrote:
> >
> > Great review, Sebastian!
> >
> > NETFLIX: fast.com.
> > Pros: allows selection of upload testing, supposedly decent
> back-end, duration configurable
> > allows unloaded, loaded download and loaded upload RTT
> measurements (but reports sinlge numbers for loaded and unloaded RTT, that
> are not the max)
> > Cons: RTT report as two numbers one for the loaded and one for
> unloaded RTT, time-course of RTTs missing
> > BUFFERBLOAT verdict: incomplete, but oh, so close...
> > Just a note that I have a plan to separate the loaded latency into
> upload/download. It's not great UX now they way it's implemented.
>
> Great! I really appreciate the way fast.com evolves carefully to
> not confuse the intended users and to stay true to its core mission while
> it still gaining additional features that are not directly part of Netflix
> business case to operate that test in the first place. Don't get me wrong,
> I absolutely love that I can easily understand why you should be interested
> in getting reliable robust speedtests from all existing or potential
> customers to your back-end; and unlike an ISP's internal speedtest, you are
> not likely to sugar coat things ;) as your goal and the end-user's goal are
> fully aligned.
>
> > The timeline view is a bit more nuanced, in the spirit of the simplistic
> UX, but I've been thinking on a good way to show that for super users as
> well.
>
> Great again! I see the beauty of keeping things simple while maybe
> hiding optional information behind an additional "click".
>
> > Two latency numbers - that's more user friendly, we want the general
> user to understand the meaning.
>
> +1; for normal users that is already bliss. For de-bloating a link
> however a bit more time resolution generally makes things a bit easier to
> reason about ;)
>
> > And latency under load is much easier than bufferbloat.
>
> +1; as far as I can tell that term sort of was a decent
> description of the observed phenomenon that then got a life of its own; in
> retrospect it was not the most self explanatory term. I like to talk about
> the latency-under-load-increase when helping people to debloat their links,
> but that also is a tad on the long side.
>
> >
> > As a side note, if our backend is decent, I'm curious what are the
> backends for the speed tests that exist that are great :)
>
> Ah, I might have tried too hard at understatement, this was the
> only back-end worth mentioning in the "pros" section...
> (well, I also like how breitbandmessung.de deals with their purposefully
> limited backend (all located in a single" data center in Germany located in
> an AS that is not directly owned by any ISP, it's the german regulators
> official speedtest for germany against which we can effectively measure and
> get an early exit from contracts if the ISPs can not deliver the contracted
> rates (with a bit of slack)))
>
> Best Regards
> Sebastian
>
> >
> > SERGEY FEDOROV
> > Director of Engineering
> > sfedo...@netflix.com
> > 121 Albright Way  |  Los Gatos, CA 95032
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 12:48 PM Sebastian Moeller 
> wrote:
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > well, it was a free service and it lasted a long time. I want to raise a
> toast to Justin and convey my sincere thanks for years of investing into
> the "good" of the internet.
> >
> > Now, the question is which test is going to be the rightful successor?
> >
> > Short of running netperf/irtt/iper2/iperf3 on a hosted server, I see
> lots of potential but none of the tests are really there yet (grievances in
> n

Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [Cake] dslreports is no longer free

[Michael Richardson]

{Do I need all the lists?}

Sergey Fedorov via Bloat  wrote:
> Just a note that I have a plan to separate the loaded latency into
> upload/download. It's not great UX now they way it's implemented.
> The timeline view is a bit more nuanced, in the spirit of the simplistic
> UX, but I've been thinking on a good way to show that for super users as
> well.
> Two latency numbers - that's more user friendly, we want the general user
> to understand the meaning. And latency under load is much easier than
> bufferbloat.

> As a side note, if our backend is decent, I'm curious what are the 
backends
> for the speed tests that exist that are great :)

Does it find/use my nearest Netflix cache?

As others asked, it would be great if we could put the settings into a URL,
and having the "latency under upload" is probably the most important number
that people trying to videoconference need to know.

(it's also the thing that they can mostly directly/cheaply fix)

> SERGEY FEDOROV
> Director of Engineering
> sfedo...@netflix.com
> 121 Albright Way | Los Gatos, CA 95032

Very happy that you are looped in here.

--
]   Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works|IoT architect   [
] m...@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/|   ruby on rails[



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Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [Cake] dslreports is no longer free

[Sergey Fedorov via Cerowrt-devel]

--- Begin Message ---
Hi Michael,

This blog post 
describes how
the test steers to the server(s).
Noted on the other thread, I hope to add the url param option reasonably
soon.

SERGEY FEDOROV

Director of Engineering

sfedo...@netflix.com

121 Albright Way | Los Gatos, CA 95032



On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 3:07 PM Michael Richardson  wrote:

>
> {Do I need all the lists?}
>
> Sergey Fedorov via Bloat  wrote:
> > Just a note that I have a plan to separate the loaded latency into
> > upload/download. It's not great UX now they way it's implemented.
> > The timeline view is a bit more nuanced, in the spirit of the
> simplistic
> > UX, but I've been thinking on a good way to show that for super
> users as
> > well.
> > Two latency numbers - that's more user friendly, we want the general
> user
> > to understand the meaning. And latency under load is much easier than
> > bufferbloat.
>
> > As a side note, if our backend is decent, I'm curious what are the
> backends
> > for the speed tests that exist that are great :)
>
> Does it find/use my nearest Netflix cache?
>
> As others asked, it would be great if we could put the settings into a URL,
> and having the "latency under upload" is probably the most important number
> that people trying to videoconference need to know.
>
> (it's also the thing that they can mostly directly/cheaply fix)
>
> > SERGEY FEDOROV
> > Director of Engineering
> > sfedo...@netflix.com
> > 121 Albright Way | Los Gatos, CA 95032
>
> Very happy that you are looped in here.
>
> --
> ]   Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh
> networks [
> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works|IoT
> architect   [
> ] m...@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/|   ruby on
> rails[
>
>
--- End Message ---
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Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] [Cake] dslreports is no longer free

[Michael Richardson]

Given QUIC uses UDP and does congestion control essentially within the
browser, it seems that maybe one could built latency under load measuring
into the QUIC infrastructure in the browser.

Maybe we don't have to create JS tools like fast.com to get good and
regular measurements of bufferbloat.  Maybe it could be a part of
browsers.   Maybe web site designers could ask for the current
"latency-under-load" value from the browser DOM.

--
]   Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works|IoT architect   [
] m...@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/|   ruby on rails[



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