Re: VAX 780 on eBay

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On Jan 2, 2022, at 9:14 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 1/2/22 6:59 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
>> But can the Pi handle a gazillion students all time sharing at once @ 2400?
> 
> I think that will depend on how you connect the serial terminals.
> 
> I know that it's possible to establish network connectivity to serial 
> terminal servers.  I don't know how many of those terminal servers can be 
> connected to SimH.  It may be better to use LAT between terminal servers and 
> VMS running in the emulated VAX.
> 

That was the whole point of LAT. At the time almost all serial terminals were 
connected by DZ-style interfaces, so 1 interrupt when you typed a character and 
a second interrupt after the character was echoed. LAT created a virtual 
circuit between the terminal server and a specific host. The slot layer ran 
over the virtual circuit between a logical terminal on the host and a physical 
terminal on the server. Data messages at the virtual circuit layer were limited 
to no more frequent than a terminal server parameter ( default 80mS). With 
appropriate optimizations and data availability it was possible to shrink the 
interrupt load on the host to 1-2 interrupts/ethernet packet (say around 1400 
characters). There were a lot of internal religious wars around the use of 
CTERM/Telnet/LAT.

After finishing DECnet-Ultrix I had a couple of weeks of spare time and 
implemented a prototype Ultrix-LAT - one of the good things that came out of 
having a MicroVAX I in my office!

  John.

>> How long was the VAX timesharing era as I suspect networked PC's come out 
>> soon after that.
> 
> Good question.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die

Re: What was a Terminal Concentration Device in DEC's products?

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On Jan 30, 2022, at 2:43 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Hm. Looking i see the dj11 had a silo but not dma.
> 
> The only thing I can see that did Async DMA was the COMM-IO-P board. That was 
> a product in 1980 timeframe, based on the KMC11 processor. With six DZ11's 
> you have 48 serial ports in a 9 board configuration.
> 
> Now for trying to unravel what the hell a DMX11 was...
> 
> The 9 board concept for 48 ports matches what I see in the Sha Tin 
> documentation from mid 1977. Apparently the DMX11 was developed by DEC in 
> 1975-1976 and was a product certified for block mode devices, but the first 
> version delivered in early 1976 was literally a breadboarded monster.
> 
> In the notes it says that DEC originally expected the DMX11 to provide block 
> mode only (to the cashier and ticket printing machines which operated in 
> block mode) but signed a contract addendum saying that the DMX microcode 
> would be upgraded to support block and async mode on the same controller so 
> they could support VT52's for interactive applications as well. Apparently 
> this would make the DMX a better product to sell into other environments and 
> would be a "simple upgrade".
> 
> Turns out it was not. And this became a CSS Australia disaster that sank the 
> whole race track.
> 

Is it possible that the DMX11 was a CSS product? If so, each region or country 
might develop their own products and other parts of DEC would never know it 
existed. About the time you are talking about (1975-1976) I was working on a 
steel works railway automation system in Sweden utilizing custom ruggedized 
terminals (RT04, maybe 10 keys, each 1.5” x 1”, RS232) and a pair of reed-relay 
switches so the terminals could be switched between a pair of active/passive 
PDP-11/40’s. Until we actually moved into the custom built machine-room, nobody 
realized that reed-relays would be located <50ft from a pair of blast furnaces 
and, whenever they were switched on, the terminals ended up randomly connected 
to one of the systems.

The following year I had moved to Maynard and I could find any information 
about the project and/or the custom hardware.

> Constant hardware and software patches were delivered as DEC tried to fit the 
> increased microcode on a single board as the HK Jockey Club held insanely 
> firmly to the contract requirement that the 48 port serial interface fit in a 
> 9 board layout. Given that they couldn't change the DZ11's, they tried to 
> mush down the logic in the DMX11 control board and that plus the change 
> requirement to make it handle block mode devices and interactive devices 
> doomed the whole project.
> 
> From what I can see, the the kmc11 was an M8204 single board which is 
> different from the 8200 used  in the dmc11. I had a DMC11 somewhere.
> 
> From the books, the kmc11 had an "lsi11 on board", 1k of 16 bit ram, 1k of 8 
> bit data memory a 300ns cycle time, 16 bit microprossor with a 16 bit 
> micro-instruction bus and 8 bit data path. This is according to the 1980 
> Terminal and Communications handbook, so it's a few years after the 1976 
> timeframe of Sha Tin.
> 
> Now the original LSI11 processor was 4 main chips, an EIS/FIS chip (or the 
> CIS lite chip or the weird 1k*20 bit micro-ram board which I have somewhere). 
> The DCT11 was a single chip lsi11 that had an 8 or 16 bit outside bus and a 
> 16 bit internal structure and ran pdp11 instructions. So the KMC11 probably 
> had the DCT11 chip.
> 
> The LSI11 chipset was around in 1975, so it makes sense that DEC could use 
> it. The SBC11/21 came out in 1981 but the chip was probably avail internally 
> by 1980 so I'm guessing that the KMC11 and the COMM-IO-DP was using the DCT11.
> 

While, in retrospect, it may have made sense to use a DCT11 and the, later, 
Falcon  chip that was never the case with the KMC11. The documentation on 
Bitsavers indicates that the instruction set is most definitely not PDP-11 like.

> But Sha Tin was 1975-1976. Perhaps the DMX11 was an early concept version of 
> a KMC11 that had the original LSI11 chip set of 4 chips running the show with 
> a set of six DZ11's and a smaller amount of memory. But there wasn't enough 
> space for additional memory to handle the extra features and DEC got stuck. 
> Maybe part of that mushing work led to the LSI11 being fewer chips (the PDT11 
> has only 4 chips but EIS/FIS thanks to one of the chips being a dual carrier 
> of MicroRoms) and ultimately to the DCT11.
> 
> One item that could really help would be RSX11D version notes. According to 
> the documentation the DMX11 was supported in RSX11/D but support was dropped 
> in 1976. They switched to RSX11/M where it was still supported.
> 

RSX-11D V6.2 was released in June 1975. This was the last release of RSX-11D as 
a separate product, subsequently it was merged with IAS with an option to 
generate a “real-time” system from a common distribution.

  John.

> Weird stuff.

Re: KMC11/DMC11 folllow up

[John Forecast via cctalk]

On Feb 1, 2022, at 8:20 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> KMC11 - Paul K cited the docs. It was a bit different from DMC CPU board
> in both cycle time and in the use of ram versus prom.
> Both boards/products used the 4bit Alu but I don't call that bit
> slice, as the 2901 is more of a bit slice.
> KMC and DMC are Harvard architecture based devices, as is the 11/60 CPU.
> DMC and KMC benefited from the microcode work of Harvey Schlesinger,
> Bob Rosenbaum, Richie Larry, and I think Clarise joined the team in
> 77. Can't recall her last name.

Patton? Harvey, Bob and Clarise joined the DECnet-RSX development team sometime 
in 77/78.

  John.

> DMC had (when I left the project and it had been shipping for a year
> or two) a 300NS cycle time, while the KMC had a 240NS cycle time
> thanks to the instruction register I had suggested to remi as we were
> thinking of a RAM based device because PROMS were a royal pain with 2
> and 3 code changes a day. This change allowed the machine to begin to
> access the next instruction as one was executing - there are no
> interrupts in either board.
> bob

Re: Anyone Know Anything About This TURBOchannel Card?

[John Forecast via cctalk]

Rob,
That’s probably a J-Video board, a prototype built by DEC SRC for the J300 
series of video and audio adapters. You can find more information in Digital 
Technical Journal, Volume 7, Number 4. Around that time, mid-1994,  I was 
working on the software for a PC ISA board which would inter-operate with 
J-Video to provide network-based desktop video conferencing (see DTJ Volume 5, 
Number 2). After 2 groups that were working on this were shutdown within a 
month of each other, I decided it was time to leave the company. I don’t know 
if any further development occurred.

  John.

On Jul 17, 2017, at 6:42 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> I finally got something out of my newly acquired DECstation 5000/240. It
> contained a mystery adapter which reports itself as:
> 
> 
> 
> 1: JV01A-AADECx0.06 TCF0 (MultiMedia Engineering)
> 
> 
> 
> And when I got the detailed configuration it reported:
> 
> 
> 
> 1: JV01A-AADECx0.06 TCF0 (Audio, Decomp, Comp)
> 
> 
> 
> The usual suspects:
> 
>  Ken Correll, Tim Hellman  (a.k.a. 'The Lab Boys')
> 
>  Bernie Szabo, Victor Bahl (Code 'R' Us)
> 
>  Bob Ulichney  (Key grip)
> 
>  Greg Wallace  (The big cheese)
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like possibly an experimental adapter produced by DEC. Anyone know
> anything about it? I can tell you that it looks like it has an FPGA on it,
> and a large chip marked "C-Cube".
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> 
> Rob
> 

Re: Bridge Communication Unibus Ethernet board?

[John Forecast via cctalk]

Al,
Would you be interested in Bridge Communications:

Ethernet System Product Line
Software Technical Reference Manual
Volumes 1, 2, 3

Dated July 1983

John.

> On Aug 30, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Also, I'm interested in archiving any surviving documentation for the first 
> generation Ethernet
> stuff that I don't have up on bitsavers like Bridge and Ungerman-Bass. I have 
> some Interlan and Excelan
> manuals, but I've not turned up much from others. I have stayed away from 
> Cisco, though.
> 
> One of my background projects has been trying to collect enough parts to 
> bring up a Sytek broadband
> network, which IBM also sold as their first PC LAN.
> 
> On 8/30/17 8:56 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/29/17 1:46 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>>> Does anyone have more info about this (dusty) board:
>>> 
>>> http://forum.datormuseum.se/data/87681DD5-B816-494C-AA4C-D8DB3FA35406/F7AD48D3-5450-4860-A0C9-23CB7277AC91.jpg
>> 
>> 
>> try dumping the eproms and see what the strings say
>> 
>> it looks like a Bridge PCB layout
>> 
>> their products were all 68K based
>> 
>> 
> 

Re: Space-Time Productions Z80 board

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On Oct 14, 2017, at 9:51 PM, Amardeep S Chana via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> Has anyone archived the contents of Joel Owens' Z80 project site that had
> documentation and software images for the above mentioned Z80 Master
> Controller Board?  His website at joelowens.org has been replaced by some
> real estate rental page.
> 
> Thanks,
> Amardeep

Looks like archive.org  has a copy of that site, 
the latest being from June 2015.

  John.

Re: PDP-11 ID page, a few images needed

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On Jan 24, 2019, at 9:55 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 23, 2019, at 5:37 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> In response to a request a couple of years back from Cindy, I've been slowly
>> working on a page to help scrappers identify PDP-11's, and give them an idea
>> what to look for. I have it _mostly_ done:
>> 
>> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Models.html
>> 
>> Comments/error-checking etc welcome. Also, I still need images of a few
>> things: -11/60 and -11/94 front consoles, the original LSI-11 card, the
>> KDJ11-E, and most of the DEC QBUS boxes.  (Yeah, I could try looking for free
>> images, I've been busy!)
>> 
>> Any help gratefully received!
>> 
>>   Noel
> 
> Was the 11/74 ever shipped?  I know of two machines that were called that, 
> both 11/70 derivatives: the multi-processor machine that RSX-11/M supports, 
> and an 11/70 with CIS instructions added, seen in the RSTS lab in Merrimack 
> NH in the early 1980s.
> 
>   paul
> 
No. As far as I know there were only 2 11/74’s in use; the quad machine in Spit 
Brook (CASTOR:: and, when split into 2 duals the other was POLLUX::) and a dual 
in Tewksbury, later LKG (ELROND::). After the project was cancelled there were 
a number of already built 11/74’s which were stripped down to single CPUs and 
made available internally for development - that may be what you saw in the 
RSTS lab.

  John.

Re: POP-2 silver book

[John Forecast via cctalk]

Since the topic of POP-2 doesn’t come up very often… In the early 1970’s I had 
a listing of “Pop-2 in Pop-2”, a portable compiler written in itself. Over the 
years I’ve managed to lose it. Would anyone here have a copy?

  John.


> On Mar 19, 2019, at 2:52 PM, W2HX via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> Amazing! I saw POP and I recognized it. I used to work for Professor Robin 
> Popplestone while I was at UMASS Amherst working in their "laboratory for 
> perceptual robotics" around 1988-89.  He was quite a character! Died some 
> years ago I heard.  Interestingly, he never attained his PHd. Rumor was the 
> had the whole thesis typed up (on typewriters in those days) and was going to 
> continue working on editing on a boat. Well you know what happened next, 
> water 1, thesis 0.  
> 
> 
> 
> From: cctalk  on behalf of Don Stalkowski via 
> cctalk 
> Sent: Monday, March 18, 2019 7:14 PM
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: POP-2 silver book
> 
> Is there anyone out there who could scan page 261 of
> "Programming in POP-2" by Burstall, Collins, and Popplestone
> for me?
> 
> Also, does anyone have a copy of POP-10?
> 
> Thanks, Don
> 

Re: Ultrix 3.0 VAX

[John Forecast via cctalk]

Dennis,
   It sounds like you are looking for an Ultrix 3.0 standalone boot tape. While 
I found a number of people who claim to have a physical tape, with some 
claiming to have imaged the tape, I was unable to find an image on-line. That 
being said, it’s possible to use the Ultrix 2.0 standalone bootable tape 
(AQ-JU00C, available from bitsavers.org) with a couple of edits at the end - I 
did this to get 2.2 up and running.

   Since Ultrix 2.0 only supports a limited number VAX processors, the first 
stage has to be run on one of those processors, I always use microvax2. 
Subsequent stages may be run on any processor supported by Ultrix 3.0.

Stage 1:

I use the following .ini file:

# Boot from standalone tape. This MUST be performed on a microvax2 
instance.
set rl dis
set ts dis
set rq0 ra81
att rq0 system.dsk
att tq0 AQ-JU00C-BE_ULTRIX-32_2.0_SA_87.tap
set tti 7b
set tto 7b
boo

Attach the Ultrix 3.0 supported tape to tq0 when it asks. This stage will 
create the root partition and restore from the tape. No special handling at 
this point, just answer the questions as for a normal install.

Stage 2:

Use the VAX simulator for the target system (I used vax780) and boot rq0. After 
answering some questions it will fail trying to create a file system on 
/dev/rra0 which doesn’t exist - you need to edit /.minidevice as follows:

# ed .minidevice
22
1
RA81 ra 0 TK50 tms 0 
s/0/0g
RA81 ra 0g TK50 tms 0 
w
23
q

Reboot the system and it will create a file system on /dev/ra0g, copy the base 
packages along with any you have selected and build a custom kernel. After all 
this reboot again and it will drop you into single user mode after complaining 
about "Can't stat /dev/ra0ga”. Edit /etc/fstab:

# ed /etc/fstab
54
1
/dev/ra0ga:/:rw:1:1:ufs::
s/0g/0
/dev/ra0a:/:rw:1:1:ufs::
w
53
q

Reboot again and you should have a functioning system.

  John.

Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On Apr 30, 2019, at 9:25 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 29, 2019, at 9:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>> I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, 
>>> but my memory could be faulty. I’ve only used WASD on VMS.
>> 
>> I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do.
>> 
>> But how does a web server run over DECnet?
>> 
>> I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can 
>> carry HTTP.
>> 
>> But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a 
>> gateway to TCP/IP.
> 
> Yes.  What I meant is that one could take an existing HTTP client and server, 
> or create one, substituting DECnet sockets for the TCP sockets.  The protocol 
> would work just fine that way.  You'd need to decide how to deal with DECnet 
> packet boundaries, something TCP doesn't have (a major omission).  The 
> simplest is to pay no attention to them, which is what I understand Ultrix 
> "streaming DECnet" sockets to do.  An alternative would be to make use of 
> them, for example by saying that the entire HTTP header is in one packet and 
> the payload (if any) follows in separate packets.
> 
>   paul
> 
> 

DECnet-Ultrix SOCK_STREAM sockets completely ignore message boundaries on both 
input and output. Early on we ran X-windows over DECnet just by changing the 
socket address family and the connect/accept logic. Very early on we had to 
test with SOCK_STREAM since DECnet was the first (and only?) protocol to make 
use of SOCK_SEQPACKET sockets and there was a crash lurking in the 4.2BSD 
kernel socket code for such sockets.

  John.

Re: RT-11 doesn't recognize my 3.5" floppy

[John Forecast via cctalk]

The release notes on bitsavers indicate that the RX33 was not supported until 
RT-11 V5.04.

  John.

> On May 6, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Charles via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> I have installed an RQDX3 and the M9058 distribution board in my 11/23+. 
> Since I don't have a 5.25" drive yet, I hooked up a 3.5" HD (1.44 MB) drive 
> from an old PC.
> After a struggle (which I documented on VCFED's DEC forum), I managed to get 
> all the jumpers and cables set correctly, and now my XXDP diagnostics (ZRQA?? 
> ... ZRQF??) recognize the drive as an RX33 (DU0:, logical drive 0 since no 
> hard disks are attached). It passes all the tests, and I can INIT, DIR, and 
> copy files to it using the limited OS with the XXDP suite. The LED on the 
> RQDX3 blinks once when the drive is accessed. So far so good.
> 
> But, when I boot the system (with RT-11SJ V5.01), it can't see the drive at 
> all. Attempts to access it result in the command hanging indefinitely, the 
> drive does not select, and the RQDX3 lamp flashes rapidly. SHOW DEV:DU does 
> say that the handler is installed for the correct 172150, 154 location. 
> However, SHOW DEV:DUn where n=[0..3] displays two blank lines then back to 
> the dot prompt.
> 
> Is my version of RT-11 just too old to recognize an RX-33? If so, what do I 
> need to fix this? Presumably a later DU.SYS?
> Thanks for any help. Most of my experience is with PDP-8's so this is slow 
> going...
> -Charles
> 

Re: DecNet / Linux

[John Forecast via cctalk]

I have it running on a Raspberry Pi 3B+ with the latest Raspbian Buster release 
so that would be running kernel 4.19.50. Debian has not yet officially released 
Buster (this coming weekend I believe) so this is somewhat of a pre-release.

Before anyone asks, there are still a couple of issues to track down and I plan 
to wait until the official release and some additional testing before putting 
the code on Github.

  John.

> On Jul 3, 2019, at 8:39 AM, John Many Jars via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Say, can anyone tell me which version of the kernel was the last one to
> work with Decnet?
> 
> Does anyone know what the actual issues are?  My friend who does kernel
> stuff wants to know.
> 
> -- 
> Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
> Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
> 
> 
> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
> that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

Re: DecNet / Linux

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On Jul 3, 2019, at 2:31 PM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, July 3, 2019 18:52, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
>> On 7/3/19 7:05 AM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk wrote:
>>> Kernel 2.6.32 was the last one to activly support Decnet.
>> 
>> What does "actively support" mean?
>> 
>> I got DECnet working in 2.6.38 with everything I tested.
>> 
>> I got DECnet working to a lesser degree with 3..
>> 
>> (I can boot VMs and get specific versions if people want them.)
>> 
>> I'm also happy to test things if people want me to.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Grant. . . .
>> unix || die
>> 
> 
> From what I have been able to find out, 2.3.36 was the last 'official'
> release supporting DecNet.
> It's good to hear that later release work fine with it (even if it
> is to some point).
> 
> Maybe it was silently maintained by others later on, who knows?
> 
There appears to some editing that’s done to make sure the code still compiles 
at least. On Raspbian between kernel 4.14 (about a year ago) and today’s kernel 
4.19, the timer logic for delayed acks was removed, maybe because it used a 
kernel API which no longer exists. Unfortunately, the resulting system paniced 
as soon as one tried to create a logical link. (The removed code probably did 
change the implementation much since delayed ack is an optional feature in 
DECnet and Linux only implements a small part of it).

  John.

> Ed
> --
> Ik email, dus ik besta 😆
> 
> 

Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On Mar 17, 2017, at 9:05 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Mar 16, 2017, at 9:28 PM, ben via cctalk  wrote:
>> 
>> But was FORTRAN that portable?
>> Other than the IBM 1130 I cannot think of a small computer
>> that had ample I/O and memory to run and compile FORTRAN. All the
>> other 16 bitters seem to more paper tape I/O.
>> I suspect 90% of all university computers ended up as IBM 360
>> systems. A few ended up with the VAX, but who knows what they
>> ran.
>> Ben.
> 
> I know of FORTRAN implementations for one's complement machines with word 
> length of 24, 27, and 60 bits, decimal machines (IBM 1620), two's complement 
> machines of 12, 16, 48 bit words, just to pick a few.  FORTRAN 
> implementations tended not to be all that demanding of resources: 4k words is 
> a typical minimum.  
> 
> I think a lot of high level languages are quite portable.  ALGOL is not as 
> widely ported but not because it's inherently harder.  PASCAL was ported to 
> many different machines too.  C is a bit of an anomaly because it's more like 
> a high level assembly language, so it has portability limitations that many 
> other high level languages don't run into.
> 
>   paul
> 

I just released a new version of the CDC 1700 simulator for SIMH. This is a 
one’s complement, 16-bit machine and the Fortran compiler is now functional in 
16KW of available space (a smaller version (12KW) was available but I don’t 
know if any copies survived). The source code for the compiler is available on 
Bitsavers - it’s written mostly in Fortran.

  John.

Re: DecNet / Linux

[John Forecast via cctalk]

I finally got around to getting DECnet running on the latest release of 
Raspbian for the Raspberry Pi (the 2019-7-10 Buster release). I’ve also done 
some (very) limited testing on Debian Buster (both 32- and 64-bit  x86 
kernels). For anyone who is interested the code is available at:

>

  John.

Re: Algol W [was: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC]

[John Forecast via cctalk]

On May 27, 2020, at 4:59 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 27, 2020, at 4:25 PM, ben via cctalk  wrote:
>> 
>> On 5/27/2020 1:45 PM, Paul McJones via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>>> Gogol is a simple, integer arithmetic language used under the PDP-1 time 
>>> sharing system at Stanford. This memorandum includes the syntactical 
>>> definition of the language and a number of sample programs as well as a 
>>> brief description of the operational characteristics of the compiler. Gogol 
>>> was designed to permit fast compilation of efficient machine code directly 
>>> into memory. The speed of compilation together with the accessibility of 
>>> the text editor make program de- bugging relatively rapid. The examples 
>>> presented here plus the availability of the compiler should form an 
>>> adequate basis for learning to use the language. More detailed information 
>>> depends heavily on a knowledge of PDP-1 hardware.
>>> https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:jy391jj5758/jy391jj5758.pdf
>> Interesting the asignment is -> (arrow) and the right side of expression. 
> 
> I remember that from POP-2, which I think was created at U of Edinborough.  
> At least we used it at University of Illinois on an AI course taught by a 
> visiting professor who came from there.  Odd language, I haven't seen it 
> since.
> 

I used POP-2 at the University of Lancaster (ICL1909) and the University of 
Essex (PDP-10) in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s. The language implemented an 
open stack so to swap the contents of 2 variables you would use:

A, B ->A ->B

POP-2 later morphed into POP-11 running under Unix on a PDP-11. Later came 
POPLOG which merged in support for PROLOG and LISP. There is a open-source 
implementation of POPLOG available.

   John.

Re: TU58 dump tool on Linux?

[John Forecast via cctalk]

On Jun 10, 2020, at 3:06 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Is there anyone that has already built a tool to dump TU58-tapes on a Linux
> machine? I have the drive of course.
> 

> There is PUTR. But it is DOS only and is written in assembler so it cannot
> be ported easily. The other option is running RT11 on a PDP-11, but then
> there is the hassle of getting the dumps off the RT11 file system.
> 

You could try my “fsio” utility  from the SIMH simtools repository:



I originally wrote it to read/write SIMH disk images in various formats 
(including RT11). I’ve
never tried it with a tape drive but if it looks like a block device it should 
work.

   John.

> 
> It is probably not too difficult to use relevant parts of the various TU58
> Unix implementations out there to do something quickly, but if someone has
> already done it, it would be great to not reinvent the wheel.
> 
> I have approximately 80  11/730 and 11/750 console and diag tapes that
> need reading.
> 
> /Mattis

Re: PDP-11 tape question

[John Forecast via cctalk]

On Jun 23, 2020, at 9:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> I've been processing some PDP-11 9 track (800 NRZI) tapes and run across
> something that I don't recognize.
> 
> Every file on the tape consists of a number of 512 byte blocks (okay,
> that's normal) but at the head of each file, there's a short block of 14
> bytes.
> 
> Usually, a short record like this is discarded as "noise" on many
> mainframe tape systems, but here it's consistently present. Here's what
> one of the records looks like:
> 
> 15 34 fe 51 fe 76 01 01 00 00 01 80 10 00
> 
> Doesn't seem like a file name in RAD50 format, so I'm puzzled.
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know...
> 
> Thanks,
> Chuck

Looks like a standard DOS/BATCH-11 tape file header. The first 6 bytes and the 
last 2 bytes are the file name in rad50 - “HMMMD0P.SAV”.
Depending on where/when it was written the header can be either 12 or 14 bytes:

Format of DOS-11 magnetic tape header records:

.rad50  /fn1fn2/;1st 6 letters of filename
.rad50  /ext/   ;3-letter extension
.byte   proj,prog   ;ppn (display it in octal)
.word   prot;protection code, usually <233> octal
.word   date;date: (year-1970.)*1000.+(day within year)
.rad50  /fn3/   ;[optional] letters 7::9 of filename

Length=14. bytes (or 12. if no fn3, like in actual DOS/BATCH)

  John.

Re: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler?

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On May 29, 2018, at 3:30 AM, Nigel Williams via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk
>  wrote:
>> I have 11D on bitsavers.
> 
> this is actually RSX-11D? http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/ias/

Yes. The two V3.4A tapes will allow you to build either RSX-11D or IAS. 
I believe that this was the last supported release.

  John.

Re: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler?

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On May 29, 2018, at 1:04 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 29, 2018, at 10:30 AM, John Forecast via cctalk 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 29, 2018, at 3:30 AM, Nigel Williams via cctalk 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk
>>>  wrote:
>>>> I have 11D on bitsavers.
>>> 
>>> this is actually RSX-11D? http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/ias/
>> 
>>  Yes. The two V3.4A tapes will allow you to build either RSX-11D or IAS. 
> 
> Wow, I did not know that.  It certainly confirms that IAS is just a slightly 
> hacked RSX-11/D...
> 
>   paul
> 
> 

My first job in Maynard was project lead for DECnet-11D & DECnet-IAS 
(Phase II). It was basically the same source code for both, just
separate builds since they were released as separate distributions. 
Later versions consolidated the releases into a single kit.

The V3.4A tapes will claim to be running IAS but, if you select the 
“Real-Time” options during sysgen you’ll get the familiar MCR> prompt:

1920K (word) IAS Version 3.4A Baselevel 3414



SAV -- Partition GENexpanded by57472 words
MOUNT-**Volume Information**
Device  =DB0
Class   =File 11
Label   =IASSYS
UIC =[1,1]
Access  =[RWED,RWED,RWED,RWED]
Charac  =[]
MOUNT --  DB0 ** Mount Complete **
 20-NOV-90 12:15:53
Date and time, please? 
MCR>

IIRC, IAS development in Reading was done mostly on an 11/45. The 2.0 
SPD confirms that IAS was supported on 11/45, 55 and 60 but
only with 2 active terminals.

  John.

Re: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler?

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On May 29, 2018, at 1:04 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 29, 2018, at 10:30 AM, John Forecast via cctalk 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 29, 2018, at 3:30 AM, Nigel Williams via cctalk 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk
>>>  wrote:
>>>> I have 11D on bitsavers.
>>> 
>>> this is actually RSX-11D? http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/ias/
>> 
>>  Yes. The two V3.4A tapes will allow you to build either RSX-11D or IAS. 
> 
> Wow, I did not know that.  It certainly confirms that IAS is just a slightly 
> hacked RSX-11/D...
> 
>   paul
> 
> 
Probably more that just “slightly” hacked but certainly not a 
completely new design. The scheduler was completely reworked
along with the swapping mechanisms. When I first saw it, there were 2 
user interfaces; SCI> the System Control Interface for
management operations and PDS> Program Development System for normal 
users. Before release, both were collapsed
into the, now familiar, DCL> interface. Just remapping DCL commands 
onto the standard utilities was a major part of the work.

  John.

Re: Modifying microcode

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On Jun 2, 2018, at 2:08 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Tony Duell  wrote:
>> Incidentally, did DEC ever release any details (flowcharts, source listings,
>> etc) of the 11/730 microcode? And what about the control PROMs for the
>> memory system. The technical manual implies there was a listing of those,
>> but I've never found it.
> 
>  I thought that DEC had a whole microcode development suite for the 730 to 
> support customer written extensions to the microcode, but I've never seen it 
> nor any documentation for it.  If such a thing did exist then I seriously 
> doubt anybody ever bought it.  The 730 was never a super popular machine to 
> start with, and the market for a customized version would have been very 
> small.
> 
>  I've heard a persistent rumor over the years that the WPS/8 and PDP-8 
> software group at DEC had modified the 730's microcode to support a PDP-8 
> emulation of some kind, and that they used that internally for development 
> 'cause it was faster than a real -8.  I've not idea if that's true, but it 
> would be cool if they did.  And no, I'm not talking about PDP-11 
> compatibility mode - even the stock 730 had that (all the 7xx VAXes did, I 
> believe).
> 
That would be Ritchie Lary’s microcode implementation for the PDP-11/60 
with WCS.

  John.

>  Certainly if you had the right tools and the right knowledge, it would have 
> been easy to modify and replace the 730's microcode with something of your 
> own.  Just copy the binary images to the console tape and reboot.
> 
> Bob
> 

Re: Got DSM-11 running, any manuals online?

[John Forecast via cctalk]

A slightly newer version (3.3) is available from 
bitsaver.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/dsm-11 

  John.


> On Jan 8, 2021, at 1:16 PM, Sergio Pedraja via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Any copy of this software available to play with?
> 
> Sergio
> 
> El vie., 8 ene. 2021 3:38, Chris Zach via cctalk 
> escribió:
> 
>> Well, with Dave's help we got the DSM-11 disk to boot on SIMH. Oddly
>> enough SIMH seems to read a raw RQDX1/2 disk pretty well.
>> 
>> sim> attach rq0 dsm.dsk
>> sim> set cpu 11/73,1m
>> Disabling RK
>> Disabling HK
>> Disabling TM
>> sim> boot rq0
>> 
>> Booting DSM-11...
>> 
>> DSM-11 Version 3.0A
>> Now running the baseline system.
>> 
>> :1 G ^STU
>> Exit
>> 
>> DSM-11 Version 3.0A Device #1 UCI:
>> Exit
>> 
>> DSM-11 Version 3.0A Device #1 UCI: ?
>> :0
>> Exit
>> 
>> The problem is I don't remember how to use it anymore. Is there a PDF of
>> the DSM-11 manual anywhere? I think this was a clean install, but I'd
>> like to check it for data before putting it into archives.
>> 
>> Also which archive would be best for it?
>> 
>> CZ
>> 

Re: DECNet for Pro 300 series boxes

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On May 17, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> My recollection of Decnet for Pro boxes is that the available SW was
> for an end node and not a routing or other capability for the
> 380/350/325 boxes.
> While that memory might be incorrect, are there any DecNet packages
> for the Pro family available anywhere?
> a few hours of searching did not turn up any thing but PDFs about the 
> software.
> thanks in advance for any replies.
> bob

I’m almost certain that it was an end-node only implementation. Eventually it 
was released through Decus as PRO175. There appears to be disk copies available 
at:


http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/mirror/os2site/sw/dec/pro/pro175/index.html
 


You’ll need to be running P/OS V3.2 so you might want to grab a copy of PRO177 
at the same time.

  John.

Re: Ultrix-11

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On Aug 19, 2021, at 9:37 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 8/19/21 12:23 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 10:07 PM Bill Degnan  wrote:
>>> pretty cool
>>> 
>> Thanks!   Looking at the boot source I figured out that I just needed to
>> build a non-generic kernel
>> to get rid of the load device prompt... I'd somehow omitted that during the
>> install...
> 
> I always skip that during the install.  Much safer to do it
> later when I am sure I have a stable system.  Need to add
> serial devices and network device.  I wonder if the DECNET
> daemon from Linux would back port to Ultrix-11?  CLient side
> is provided, but no daemon that I am aware of.

If by daemon you mean the kernel code supporting NSP and routing protocols 
then, no, it would not be an easy back port, that code makes heavy use of 
Linux-specific functions and capabilities. The user-level utilities would be 
much simpler but you would need to copy over the DECnet header files and 
implement the expected library routines (getnodebyname(), getobjent() etc).

  John.
> 
> bill
> 

Re: Ultrix-11

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On Aug 19, 2021, at 4:45 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 19, 2021, at 4:37 PM, John Forecast via cctalk 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 19, 2021, at 9:37 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 8/19/21 12:23 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 10:07 PM Bill Degnan  wrote:
>>>>> pretty cool
>>>>> 
>>>> Thanks!   Looking at the boot source I figured out that I just needed to
>>>> build a non-generic kernel
>>>> to get rid of the load device prompt... I'd somehow omitted that during the
>>>> install...
>>> 
>>> I always skip that during the install.  Much safer to do it
>>> later when I am sure I have a stable system.  Need to add
>>> serial devices and network device.  I wonder if the DECNET
>>> daemon from Linux would back port to Ultrix-11?  CLient side
>>> is provided, but no daemon that I am aware of.
>> 
>> If by daemon you mean the kernel code supporting NSP and routing protocols 
>> then, no, it would not be an easy back port, that code makes heavy use of 
>> Linux-specific functions and capabilities. The user-level utilities would be 
>> much simpler but you would need to copy over the DECnet header files and 
>> implement the expected library routines (getnodebyname(), getobjent() etc).
>> 
>> John.
> 
> Does Linux follow the DECnet socket services of Ultrix, or are they 
> different?  I remember that Ultrix had socket operations matching the power 
> of the DECnet application interface, stuff like connect data or 
> packet-oriented data transmission.  It also supported a basic stream service, 
> which was mapped (somehow -- I'd like to find the details) onto the 
> underlying DECnet packet service.
> 
As far as I can see they both implement the same socket level interfaces for 
I/O, there are some differences in some of the ioctl calls which are OS 
dependent. The base socket interface does not have the concept of optional data 
on connect/disconnect or even the difference between disconnect and abort so 
these are all implemented as ioctls and library routines are provided for 
common use cases. DECnet supports 2 types of socket; SOCK_SEQPACKET which 
maintains message boundaries just like other DECnet implementations and 
SOCK_STREAM which provides a TCP-like byte stream interface. All of the 
standard DEC utilities use SOCK_SEQPACKET and both ends of a link need to be of 
the same type for this to work correctly. SOCK_STREAM sockets transmit data as 
soon as it’s supplied (assuming flow control allows transmission) and a receive 
operation reads as much data as is available (subject to the user read request 
size) so, in this case, message boundaries can change from run to run.

> I've been thinking it would be neat to have an httpd that answers DECnet 
> connections (object number 80, of course).
> 
That should be relatively easy depending on how you want to delineate message 
boundaries. SOCK_SEQPACKET would be the easiest and should work against all 
DECnet implementations. If you use SOCK_STREAM with embedded message lengths, 
you need to make sure that the last byte of a message is also the last byte of 
a user-level write operation so EOM is set correctly and the remote end will be 
able to read the message without getting stuck waiting for EOM to be set. In 
general, SOCK_STREAM communication is only useful when talking to other systems 
which also implement SOCK_STREAM semantics.

  John.

>   paul
> 
> 

Re: Multiprocessor Qbus PDP-11

[John Forecast via cctalk]

> On Aug 19, 2021, at 7:39 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> There are indications in the KDJ11-B processor spec on bitsavers that the
> M8190 could be used in a multiprocessor configuration. For example, bit 10
> of the Maintenance Register (17 777 750) is labeled "Multiprocessor Slave"
> and indicates that the bus arbitrator is disabled. There is also section
> 6.6, "Cache Multi-Processor Hooks", that describes cache features that
> allow multiprocessor operation.
> 
> Would it be as simple as connecting to 11/83 qbus together? And adding the
> proper software.
> 
> Anybody ever heard of such a thing?
> 
> Chuck

See:

>

for more info on multi-processor PDP-11s including KDJ11-B’s.

  John.

FTGH

[John Forecast via cctalk]

Due to family medical issues I have to downsize and move into a retirement 
facility at the end of this month. The following are available for local pick 
up only in the Boston MA metro west region. I can be reached off-list at 
j...@forecast.name.

DEC VT180 with 4 floppy drives

Includes HSC Inc’s CO16 8086 coprocessor with 256KB memory
Full hardware documentation for the CO16

Documentation:
Bios User’s Guide
CP/M Operating System Manual
Multiplan Manuals
Microsoft M80/L80 Manua
MBasic VT180 v5.21 Reference manual

No software available. If/When I find the software I will make it 
available to whoever
takes this system.


Digital Research CP/M Plus distribution (includes 8” floppies)


Acorn RISC OS 3 Programmers Reference Manuals

Volumes 1 - 5 + Style Guide
(This does not appear to be available on Bitsavers)


Apple Inside Macintosh

Volumes 1 - 6
Quicktime components
Communications toolbox


Apple Resedit reference



Minix Software

Minix 1.5 for Macintosh (including disks)
Minix for the Atari ST
Minix Binaries and Sources for IBM PC/AT (5¼” floppies)


Miscellaneous Macintosh Software (Pre MacOS)

At Ease
Kid Pix
Kid Pix Companion
SimEarth
Sim City
Sim Town
Sim City 2000
Sim City 2000 Scenarios - Vol 1 Great Disasters
Sim City Urban Renewal Kit
Microsoft Flight Simulator
Disk Doubler
Auto Doubler
Virtual
Hard Disk Toolkit
Reader Rabbit
Metrowerks CodeWarrior Bronze
Think C Version 5
Think Reference


Miscellaneous Macintosh Books (Pre MacOS)

The Apple Macintosh Book by Cary Lu
Hypercard Developers Guide

Miscellaneous Atari ST Software

Balance Of Power
Omnires Monitor
PC Ditto

Miscellaneous Atari ST Books

Atari ST Internals
Programmer’s Reference Guide


Other:

Atari 400/800 Disk Operating System Reference Manual
Atari 810 Disk Drive Operators Manual