[cctalk] DECnet to be dropped from Linux
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-DECnet-2022-Removal https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20220731190646.97039-1-step...@networkplumber.org/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
> -Original Message- > From: Ali via cctalk > Sent: 31 July 2022 06:51 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Cc: Ali > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port > > > I feel like a Raspberry Pi or similar would fit the bill for this > > nicely. > > > > Yes, but it wouldn't be ready to go ;). I would need to find a raspberry pi > with a > built in serial port and a flavor Linux already loaded on it plus > configuration. > There are plenty of SERVER devices out there (i.e. take data from the serial > console of a device and present it over the LAN via TCP/IP and accessible by > Telnet, SSH, even HTTP) so I am hoping someone has a client device as well. > > -Ali Ali, Many of the "server" devices work both ways. So you can configure the ports to be "host/server" or "terminal" ports. I think for example this https://www.ebay.com/itm/402706717955 will let you have both types of ports. It’s a bit modern and complex but seems to fit the bill.. Dave
[cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port
One method to do what you want would be to do the following: 1. Connect a TTL to RS-232 Converter to the serial port on the Raspberry Pi https://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Compact-RS232-Converter-Female/dp/B00OPTOKI0 2. Enable the serial console on the Raspberry Pi. Log-in to your Pi using the default username |pi| and password |raspberry|*. *Then**issue the following command: *sudo nano /boot/config.txt* This will launch the nano text editor with sufficient privileges to modify the file. Then use the arrow keys to navigate to the end of the file and add the following line: *enable_uart=1* And that’s it! The next time you reboot your Raspberry Pi you’ll be ready to move on to the task of actually attaching that funky USB serial cable. 3. Connect a serial to ethernet adapter on each remote system. https://www.amazon.com/CERRXIAN-Ethernet-Serial-Device-Converter/dp/B087J9F6LF/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1Z8M6ZR7Z1QRV&keywords=rs-232+to+ethernet&qid=1659446389&s=electronics&sprefix=rs-232+to+ethernet%2Celectronics%2C92&sr=1-4 Keep track of the ip addresses of the adapters. 4. Login to the Raspberry Pi on the terminal 5. Install telnet on the RPI *sudo apt install telnet *6. telnet This will work with any Raspberry Pi, even the Pi Zero 2 W. Note: Telnet will not do any terminal emulation or translation. Configure your local terminal for the emulation you need or configure the remote hosts to the terminal you are using. On 8/2/2022 6:48 AM, David Wade via cctalk wrote: -Original Message- From: Ali via cctalk Sent: 31 July 2022 06:51 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: Ali Subject: [cctalk] Re: Connecting a physical terminal via LAN to Serial Port I feel like a Raspberry Pi or similar would fit the bill for this nicely. Yes, but it wouldn't be ready to go ;). I would need to find a raspberry pi with a built in serial port and a flavor Linux already loaded on it plus configuration. There are plenty of SERVER devices out there (i.e. take data from the serial console of a device and present it over the LAN via TCP/IP and accessible by Telnet, SSH, even HTTP) so I am hoping someone has a client device as well. -Ali Ali, Many of the "server" devices work both ways. So you can configure the ports to be "host/server" or "terminal" ports. I think for example this https://www.ebay.com/itm/402706717955 will let you have both types of ports. It’s a bit modern and complex but seems to fit the bill.. Dave
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
Multinet On Tue, Aug 2, 2022, 6:46 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-DECnet-2022-Removal > > > https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20220731190646.97039-1-step...@networkplumber.org/ > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) > 702-829-053 >
[cctalk] Posts Blocked
Hello All, Since the new hosting has taken over I am having a ton of issues posting to the list. Anyone else experiencing legit posts being blocked as spam? -Ali
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
> Bill Degnan wrote: >Multinet Are you suggesting running Multinet on VMS so it can talk to the TCP world? Umm... The problem is that there are a lot more DECnet systems than just VMS. Bob
[cctalk] Re: Posts Blocked
I have had to switch from gmail to outlook. Gmail won't send because its on the SORBS list Dave > -Original Message- > From: Ali via cctalk > Sent: 02 August 2022 18:40 > To: CCTalk Mailing List > Cc: Ali > Subject: [cctalk] Posts Blocked > > Hello All, > > Since the new hosting has taken over I am having a ton of issues posting to > the > list. Anyone else experiencing legit posts being blocked as spam? > > > -Ali > > >
[cctalk] Re: Posts Blocked
On Tue, 2 Aug 2022, Ali via cctalk wrote: Hello All, Since the new hosting has taken over I am having a ton of issues posting to the list. Anyone else experiencing legit posts being blocked as spam? I generally have no problems at all with the list. BUT, yesterday, when I posted about "Hyperland" (BBS ephemera thread), it didn't go through (silently, with no bounce message), and I had to send it again. First time that that has ever happened to me on this list. My apologies to anybody who got it twice. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
On 8/2/22 11:52 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: Umm... The problem is that there are a lot more DECnet systems than just VMS. Please elaborate. I naively assumed that anything that was running DECnet was doing so to be able to communicate with a DEC system / OS. It sounds like you are aware of places where DECnet is being used that doesn't involve DEC system(s) / OS(s). -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
> On Aug 2, 2022, at 2:38 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > > On 8/2/22 11:52 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >> Umm... The problem is that there are a lot more DECnet systems than just >> VMS. > > Please elaborate. > > I naively assumed that anything that was running DECnet was doing so to be > able to communicate with a DEC system / OS. > > It sounds like you are aware of places where DECnet is being used that > doesn't involve DEC system(s) / OS(s). I think the context was TCP as an alternative transport, given the fading DECnet support in Linux. And yes, that's an option for Unix and VMS, but not for a number of other DEC operating systems that have no TCP option. Hm, I'm reminded that someone did a TCP add-on to RSTS, that would be interesting to examine. A tricky piece of work, given that RSTS was not at all designed to be customer-extensible (unlike RSX and RT-11). Not even customer device drivers, let alone anything much harder, like a whole network stack. paul
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
On 8/2/22 12:42 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: I think the context was TCP as an alternative transport, given the fading DECnet support in Linux. And yes, that's an option for Unix and VMS, but not for a number of other DEC operating systems that have no TCP option. Okay. I hadn't considered other DEC OSs that don't support TCP/IP. How prevalent is the use of DEC OSs that don't support TCP/IP? Could such use cases suffice with a non-current Linux kernel that still includes support for DECnet? I'm trying to understand how many installations are actually using DECnet in Linux / how big the potential problem is / will be. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: Posts Blocked
I watched it... thanks for link! Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 11:36 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Tue, 2 Aug 2022, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Hello All, > Since the new hosting has taken over I am having a ton of issues posting to > the list. Anyone else experiencing legit posts being blocked as spam? I generally have no problems at all with the list. BUT, yesterday, when I posted about "Hyperland" (BBS ephemera thread), it didn't go through (silently, with no bounce message), and I had to send it again. First time that that has ever happened to me on this list. My apologies to anybody who got it twice. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
>Grant Taylor >Okay. I hadn't considered other DEC OSs that don't support TCP/IP. AFAIK, VMS was the only DEC operating system (well, excepting the Un*x derivatives) that supported TCP/IP. There were several third party TCP/IP implementations for VMS (e.g. Wollongong, CMU, Process Software, ...) and eventually DEC came out with their own official implementation. Johnny Bilquist has a TCP suite for RSX, but that's a recent development and was never a DEC product. >I'm trying to understand how many installations are actually using >DECnet in Linux / how big the potential problem is / will be. You mean now, today, for actual real work? I have no idea, but I doubt it's very many if any at all. There are some of us hobbyists out there though, that still use DECnet. We even have a worldwide DECnet network tunneled over the Internet, and it's useful for some of us to have DECnet on Linux. I have such a machine here, with Ubuntu 16.04.7LTS and ESM, kernel 4.4.0-148. I would have upgraded it, but getting some of the user mode DECnet programs to run on later releases is problematic. Not impossible, but tricky. Are you part of the kernel team? I'm not really suggesting that DECnet support be kept, although there are a few of us who would appreciate it. Bob
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
Does dropping Decnet mean the the commercial versions like Redhat and any others that you pay support for will also lose Decnet? Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 2, 2022, at 12:12, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > > On 8/2/22 12:42 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> I think the context was TCP as an alternative transport, given the fading >> DECnet support in Linux. And yes, that's an option for Unix and VMS, but >> not for a number of other DEC operating systems that have no TCP option. > > Okay. I hadn't considered other DEC OSs that don't support TCP/IP. > > How prevalent is the use of DEC OSs that don't support TCP/IP? > > Could such use cases suffice with a non-current Linux kernel that still > includes support for DECnet? > > I'm trying to understand how many installations are actually using DECnet in > Linux / how big the potential problem is / will be. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
On 8/2/22 14:38, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: On 8/2/22 11:52 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: Umm... The problem is that there are a lot more DECnet systems than just VMS. Please elaborate. I naively assumed that anything that was running DECnet was doing so to be able to communicate with a DEC system / OS. It sounds like you are aware of places where DECnet is being used that doesn't involve DEC system(s) / OS(s). As previously stated, I run DECNET on Linux in order to talk to my DEC systems. bill
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
On 8/2/22 14:42, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Aug 2, 2022, at 2:38 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: On 8/2/22 11:52 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: Umm... The problem is that there are a lot more DECnet systems than just VMS. Please elaborate. I naively assumed that anything that was running DECnet was doing so to be able to communicate with a DEC system / OS. It sounds like you are aware of places where DECnet is being used that doesn't involve DEC system(s) / OS(s). I think the context was TCP as an alternative transport, given the fading DECnet support in Linux. And yes, that's an option for Unix and VMS, but not for a number of other DEC operating systems that have no TCP option. Hm, I'm reminded that someone did a TCP add-on to RSTS, that would be interesting to examine. A tricky piece of work, given that RSTS was not at all designed to be customer-extensible (unlike RSX and RT-11). Not even customer device drivers, let alone anything much harder, like a whole network stack. I know there is a (not generally available) TCP/IP for RSX but I never saw or even heard of one for RSTS. bill
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
On 8/2/22 1:56 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: AFAIK, VMS was the only DEC operating system (well, excepting the Un*x derivatives) that supported TCP/IP. There were several third party TCP/IP implementations for VMS (e.g. Wollongong, CMU, Process Software, ...) and eventually DEC came out with their own official implementation. Isn't Tru64 a DEC product? Doesn't it support TCP/IP? I assume that it also supports DECnet. I naively assume similar about Ultrix. Johnny Bilquist has a TCP suite for RSX, but that's a recent development and was never a DEC product. :-) You mean now, today, for actual real work? I have no idea, but I doubt it's very many if any at all. Ya, that's what I was trying to figure out. There are some of us hobbyists out there though, that still use DECnet. We even have a worldwide DECnet network tunneled over the Internet, and it's useful for some of us to have DECnet on Linux. Understood and agreed. I have such a machine here, with Ubuntu 16.04.7LTS and ESM, kernel 4.4.0-148. I would have upgraded it, but getting some of the user mode DECnet programs to run on later releases is problematic. Not impossible, but tricky. Please expound on what impact you would have if DECnet was removed from the /current/ mainline kernel? Would you stop using DECnet b/c it was removed from the kernel? Or would you continue to use DECnet on an older kernel that still includes support for it? I've recently run into this with some old Token Ring hardware that I was messing with. I did a recent install of a distro that was 15 years old and it worked perfectly for what I needed. Are you part of the kernel team? Nope. I'm just some random person on the Internet that has opinions and / or questions that are hopefully on topic. I'm not really suggesting that DECnet support be kept, although there are a few of us who would appreciate it. I have oft wondered about using DECnet for a few different things. Likewise with OSI and IPX. But I do think that I would be perfectly content running things in UML w/ L2 network access and / or VMs running old versions that still support hardware. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
On 8/2/22 1:56 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: Does dropping Decnet mean the the commercial versions like Redhat and any others that you pay support for will also lose Decnet? I imagine that even commercially supported distributions will eventually loose DECnet support. -- I don't see how they can realistically avoid it. Red Hat is notorious for avoiding the bleeding edge and porting things across kernel versions. So I suspect that they would have support longer than something like Debian et al. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
I naively assume that since Decnet is a mature product supporting it just means testing it with new versions of Linux so not too much work is needed. If a linux distro keeps it it adds value to that distro. So, in the future, Redhat, for example, might be the only distro left supporting it so if you need Decnet you’ll want Redhat. This Creates a niche market by default. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 2, 2022, at 13:12, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > > On 8/2/22 1:56 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> Does dropping Decnet mean the the commercial versions like Redhat and any >> others that you pay support for will also lose Decnet? > > I imagine that even commercially supported distributions will eventually > loose DECnet support. -- I don't see how they can realistically avoid it. > > Red Hat is notorious for avoiding the bleeding edge and porting things across > kernel versions. So I suspect that they would have support longer than > something like Debian et al. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
On 8/2/22 2:37 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: I naively assume that since Decnet is a mature product supporting it just means testing it with new versions of Linux so not too much work is needed. If a linux distro keeps it it adds value to that distro. Fair enough. I think the problem is going to manifest itself if ~> when the kernel changes so that it's no longer compatible with the old DECnet code and / or there is a security problem. The kernel is constantly moving. At some point the distance between the contemporary kernel and the DECnet code is too great and things fail. So, in the future, Redhat, for example, might be the only distro left supporting it so if you need Decnet you’ll want Redhat. This Creates a niche market by default. I question if there is enough demand for it to be worth Red Hat's / etc's time and effort to do so. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
> Grant Taylor wrote: >Isn't Tru64 a DEC product? I did say, "Excepting the Un*x derivatives"... >Would you stop using DECnet b/c it was removed from the kernel? Well, I wouldn't be able to upgrade that machine anymore. That wouldn’t be the end of the world, but eventually one of two things will happen - either I'll want to run some software thing that doesn't work with an older distro, or I'll need to upgrade the hardware and driver support for some piece of hardware won't be available in the older distro. Then I'll just have to quit using DECnet on Linux. I won't quit using DECnet, of course, as I have other systems which speak only that. I just won't be able to talk to them from Linux anymore. Bob
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
It might not be worth it to redhat. I wonder how many govt entities are still using DEC machines and can’t replace them easily. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 2, 2022, at 13:47, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > > On 8/2/22 2:37 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> I naively assume that since Decnet is a mature product supporting it just >> means testing it with new versions of Linux so not too much work is needed. >> If a linux distro keeps it it adds value to that distro. > > Fair enough. > > I think the problem is going to manifest itself if ~> when the kernel changes > so that it's no longer compatible with the old DECnet code and / or there is > a security problem. > > The kernel is constantly moving. At some point the distance between the > contemporary kernel and the DECnet code is too great and things fail. > >> So, in the future, Redhat, for example, might be the only distro left >> supporting it so if you need Decnet you’ll want Redhat. This Creates a niche >> market by default. > > I question if there is enough demand for it to be worth Red Hat's / etc's > time and effort to do so. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
It just sounds to me like the implementation should move to userspace. Why does it need to be in the kernel? -- Chris
[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux
On Tue, 2 Aug 2022, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > I naively assume that since Decnet is a mature product supporting it > just means testing it with new versions of Linux so not too much work is > needed. Someone has to do that, it doesn't happen automagically. And if not for: > It has been Orphaned in kernel since 2010. > And the documentation link on Sourceforge says it is abandoned there. I am sure this code would be kept. We have older stuff there in the Linux kernel (in terms of first appearance; I remember DECnet support being contributed and it was pretty late in the game). Step in as a maintainer and the decision might be revisited. > If a linux distro keeps it it adds value to that distro. So, in > the future, Redhat, for example, might be the only distro left > supporting it so if you need Decnet you’ll want Redhat. This Creates a > niche market by default. Again, someone has to be paid to maintain it. If a company sees business justification for that, it will. Maciej
[cctalk] Dysan 208-21 alignment disk - what is it for?
Hi there, Does anyone have the spec sheet for the Dysan 208-21 alignment disk, or know what drive it's intended to be used with? I've got the information sheet which comes with the disk, but it doesn't identify the tracks-per-inch or track count. It's a 5.25in double-sided disk; the info sheet says: FILE: 208-21 PAGE 001 Dysan 208-21 (Configuration #802030) Double Sided Alignment Diskette Track 0 - Full Revolution (both sides) Track 1 - Index Burst (both sides) Track 16 - Index, Azimuth and Catseye (both sides) Track 33 - Full Revolution (both sides) Track 34 - Index and Azimuth (both sides) Full Revolution - recording frequency is 125 kHz Index Burst - 50us in duration and occurs 200us after index. Recording frequency 125 kHz. Azimuth - Four bursts that depicts an azimuth of 12'. Each burst is 1 millisecond in duration with the first burst occurring 500us after index. The recording frequency is 125kHz. Catseye - recording frequency 62.5 kHz Sadly the part number doesn't appear on Accurite's old website (per archive.org), or the Dysan PDFs I've found on Bitsavers. About the only thing I've been able to figure out is that it's an Analog Alignment Disk. Thanks, -- Phil. classic...@philpem.me.uk https://www.philpem.me.uk/
[cctalk] Re: Dysan 208-21 alignment disk - what is it for?
The 208-xx disks all seem to be 48tpi (208-40, 208-41, 208-10 (single-sided) They all do seem to include an index burst. Just a guess, mind you. --Chuck
