K12MIT on PDP-12
So, with the help of you here, I was able to create OS/8 LINCtapes and to run SerialDisk. Everything runs very fine. Now comes the next thing: I want to have K12MIT, and it is no problem to compile or load the program. *But*: When I start K12MIT I don't get the prompt. I see the welcome message, and it correctly identifies the machine as a PDP-12, but that's it. As I've found out it apparently overwrites its code, the processor is looping around address 3600-3620. Examining the memory reveals that the code at 3600 has been overwritten with junk. So it's clear that it won't run anymore. What happens? Was anyone else able to run K12MIT on a PDP-12? BTW the same binary runs fine on a PDP-8, be it a real machine or SIMH. Christian
Re: K12MIT on PDP-12
Do you have a running pdp12? C On 11/24/2021 4:47 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: So, with the help of you here, I was able to create OS/8 LINCtapes and to run SerialDisk. Everything runs very fine. Now comes the next thing: I want to have K12MIT, and it is no problem to compile or load the program. *But*: When I start K12MIT I don't get the prompt. I see the welcome message, and it correctly identifies the machine as a PDP-12, but that's it. As I've found out it apparently overwrites its code, the processor is looping around address 3600-3620. Examining the memory reveals that the code at 3600 has been overwritten with junk. So it's clear that it won't run anymore. What happens? Was anyone else able to run K12MIT on a PDP-12? BTW the same binary runs fine on a PDP-8, be it a real machine or SIMH. Christian
Re: K12MIT on PDP-12
On Wed, 24 Nov 2021, Chris Zach wrote: Do you have a running pdp12? Yes :-) It is completely working including the display and both LINCtape drives. Christian
Re: K12MIT on PDP-12
Interesting. I couldn't save the pdp12 that was at my college 30 years ago (you can't fit that rack in the back of a station wagon) but I did grab a couple of boxes of LincTapes. I'd be happy to loan you a few if you want to see what's on them. C On 11/24/2021 5:17 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: On Wed, 24 Nov 2021, Chris Zach wrote: Do you have a running pdp12? Yes :-) It is completely working including the display and both LINCtape drives. Christian
Re: K12MIT on PDP-12
On 11/24/2021 1:47 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: So, with the help of you here, I was able to create OS/8 LINCtapes and to run SerialDisk. Everything runs very fine. Yay! Now comes the next thing: I want to have K12MIT, and it is no problem to compile or load the program. *But*: When I start K12MIT I don't get the prompt. I see the welcome message, and it correctly identifies the machine as a PDP-12, but that's it. As I've found out it apparently overwrites its code, the processor is looping around address 3600-3620. Examining the memory reveals that the code at 3600 has been overwritten with junk. So it's clear that it won't run anymore. What happens? Was anyone else able to run K12MIT on a PDP-12? BTW the same binary runs fine on a PDP-8, be it a real machine or SIMH. Are you running SerialDisk on the same DP12 that K12MIT is trying to use? That might not work well, though I'm not sure why K12MIT would commit suicide about it. I haven't had much use for K12MIT -- the tools that come with the latest SerialDisk can take apart and rebuild/modify bootable/server images, so I just copy whatever to or the directory those tools are using and rebuild the image (or re-explode the server image and copy it out, to go the other way). Vince
Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation
tis 2021-11-23 klockan 18:06 -0800 skrev s shumaker via cctalk: > In fact, it's standard language in most DOD contracts that ALL > materials > related to a contract must be destroyed at contract closure unless > the > contractor receives specific permission from the gov't to retain it > - > usually for some specific reason such as a projected follow-on > contract. When major contracts close, there is often a great > cleaning > out of file cabinet and storage areas, done as quickly as possible > because it's all on company time rather than paid by uncle. > > Steve Hmmm, good for the company employees/managers and the DoE. If not, FBI could have had better material from the examinations of Rocky Flats 'cleanup operations' who said it was ok burning plutonium infested material ? And other misbehaviours : ie tri plumes in different parts of the US.
Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation
I can speak for state government but not fed (this was 20 years ago). It was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and deface documentation and software so it would be unusable from dumpster divers. Some pallets of hardware would get "recycled" by department of corrections (prisoners) but there wasn't any thought of archiving. Especially once bills came out to enable requesting of data. That resulted in policies to purge data older than x years and email after 1. On Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 8:11 AM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > tis 2021-11-23 klockan 18:06 -0800 skrev s shumaker via cctalk: > > In fact, it's standard language in most DOD contracts that ALL > > materials > > related to a contract must be destroyed at contract closure unless > > the > > contractor receives specific permission from the gov't to retain it > > - > > usually for some specific reason such as a projected follow-on > > contract. When major contracts close, there is often a great > > cleaning > > out of file cabinet and storage areas, done as quickly as possible > > because it's all on company time rather than paid by uncle. > > > > Steve > > Hmmm, good for the company employees/managers and the DoE. > > If not, FBI could have had better material from the examinations of > Rocky Flats 'cleanup operations' > > who said it was ok burning plutonium infested material ? > > And other misbehaviours : ie tri plumes in different parts of the US. > >
Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation
On 11/24/21 6:42 AM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > I can speak for state government but not fed (this was 20 years ago). It > was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and deface > documentation and software so it would be unusable from dumpster divers. > Some pallets of hardware would get "recycled" by department of corrections > (prisoners) but there wasn't any thought of archiving. Especially once > bills came out to enable requesting of data. That resulted in policies to > purge data older than x years and email after 1. Sometimes it's corporate policy. Back in the 1970s, some institution (college?) picked up all sorts of CDC 6000-series bits and pieces from surplus dealers and assembled their own working machine. They then called on CDC for servicing the beast. Bill Norris reportedly went through the roof. The directive came from on high that any CDC-owned equipment taken out of services was to be rendered into an unusable, unsalvageable state before disposal. I witnessed CEs taking hammers to disk drives and mainframes, bolt cutters, etc. I used to have a Bryant disk platter that I smuggled out of the facility with the intention of turning into a side table, but it was lost in a house move. I've just got a few cordwood modules, a head from an 808 drive and a heatsink from a STAR-1B. I don't know what corporate policy was with company-owned software, but it could well have been similar. --Chuck
Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation
> On Nov 24, 2021, at 11:18 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 11/24/21 6:42 AM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >> I can speak for state government but not fed (this was 20 years ago). It >> was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and deface >> documentation and software so it would be unusable from dumpster divers. >> Some pallets of hardware would get "recycled" by department of corrections >> (prisoners) but there wasn't any thought of archiving. Especially once >> bills came out to enable requesting of data. That resulted in policies to >> purge data older than x years and email after 1. > > Sometimes it's corporate policy. > ... > I don't know what corporate policy was with company-owned software, but > it could well have been similar. Could be. The government case sounds more like an attempt to render the public records laws ineffective by destroying records before they can be requisitioned. My corporate experience suggests that the loss of software materials is most likely just lack of interest, or lack of an explicit archiving policy. Consider DEC: the software projects I worked on had their internal source code storage, and backups of same. At some point they added some flavor of source control machinery, once those became available and popular. But while customer kits (binary kits) were sent to the Software Distribution Center for multiplication and distribution, I never saw any indication that the corresponding source code state was captured and saved, let alone archived in some central archive. So, for example, while the RSTS team had the RSTS sources, they didn't exist (in any planned form) elsewhere that I know of, nor did a full record of older releases exist anywhere. And when projects are closed down, their resources would tend to just disappear. paul
Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation
There is at least one major semiconductor company that has (had?) an internal group tasked with recovering (HW designs/software/firmware) IP off of "obsolete" media - reel tape, paper tape, floppy discs, other, and preserving for internal use. Was a substantial effort, meaning dedicated people, $$$, and R&D resources. There were many motivations for this recovery work, One was use of older, but still technically viable, processor IP that could be migrated to newer process nodes. I worked on an unrelated project where we actually used an "older archived" processor design, updated to contemporary node technology, taped out, and released a product. Initially for internal customers. Another team took and released a processor core product externally. A very cool project, probably one of the most interesting in my career. I did make attempts to cross-pollinate this internal corporate group with CHM, and they were very interested in talking with CHM. But, by then CHM had fully morphed into a social club for the glitterati and elite of Silicon Valley, and was no longer interested in restoration and preservation heavy lifting. Too bad, they were geographically close and there could have been some very fruitful collaboration for both parties. In retrospect I suspect LCM would have been a more fruitful introduction. Oh well, coulda, soulda, woulda... ;-) Lee Courtney On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 10:51 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Nov 24, 2021, at 11:18 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 11/24/21 6:42 AM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > >> I can speak for state government but not fed (this was 20 years ago). It > >> was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and > deface > >> documentation and software so it would be unusable from dumpster divers. > >> Some pallets of hardware would get "recycled" by department of > corrections > >> (prisoners) but there wasn't any thought of archiving. Especially once > >> bills came out to enable requesting of data. That resulted in policies > to > >> purge data older than x years and email after 1. > > > > Sometimes it's corporate policy. > > ... > > I don't know what corporate policy was with company-owned software, but > > it could well have been similar. > > Could be. The government case sounds more like an attempt to render the > public records laws ineffective by destroying records before they can be > requisitioned. > > My corporate experience suggests that the loss of software materials is > most likely just lack of interest, or lack of an explicit archiving policy. > > Consider DEC: the software projects I worked on had their internal source > code storage, and backups of same. At some point they added some flavor of > source control machinery, once those became available and popular. But > while customer kits (binary kits) were sent to the Software Distribution > Center for multiplication and distribution, I never saw any indication that > the corresponding source code state was captured and saved, let alone > archived in some central archive. So, for example, while the RSTS team had > the RSTS sources, they didn't exist (in any planned form) elsewhere that I > know of, nor did a full record of older releases exist anywhere. > > And when projects are closed down, their resources would tend to just > disappear. > > paul > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell
Extra books
Hi, I find myself with some extra books (acquired as part of an auction) that I don't have any interest in keeping. As such, they are available to move to a home that will appreciate them more than mine will. - CBASIC Simplified - Jeffrey R. Weber - 0-938862-10-3 - Mastering CP/M - Alan R. Miller - 0-89588-068-7 - Osborne CP/M User Guide Second Edition - Thom Hogan - 0-931988-82-9 - The Programmer's CP/M Handbook - Andy Johnson-Laird - 0-88134-103-7 - Understanding Pascal - George Ledin Jr. - 0-88248-149-1 - Turbo Pascal Reference Manual from Borland - Pascal With Style - Henry F. Ledgard / John F. Hueras / Paul A. Nagin - 0-8104-5124-7 - Pascal User Manual and Report Second Edition - Kathleen Jensen / Miklaus Wirth - 0-387-90144-2 / 3-540-90144-2 - Invitation to Pascal - Hary Katzan Jr. - 089433-103-5 - Oh! Pascal! - Doug Cooper / Michael Clancy - 0-393-95205-3 - Pascal Programs for Scientists and Engineers - Alan R. Miller - 0-89588-058-X - Mastering Turbo Pascal 5.5 Third Edition - Tom Swan - 0-672-48450-1 I'm mostly asking for postage and handling for book(s). If you want to tip your waiter, that's appreciated too. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: Extra books
Hi, Some there I'd be interested in maybe if not all. Where are you located? Best, David Williams On 11/24/2021 5:18 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: Hi, I find myself with some extra books (acquired as part of an auction) that I don't have any interest in keeping. As such, they are available to move to a home that will appreciate them more than mine will. - CBASIC Simplified - Jeffrey R. Weber - 0-938862-10-3 - Mastering CP/M - Alan R. Miller - 0-89588-068-7 - Osborne CP/M User Guide Second Edition - Thom Hogan - 0-931988-82-9 - The Programmer's CP/M Handbook - Andy Johnson-Laird - 0-88134-103-7 - Understanding Pascal - George Ledin Jr. - 0-88248-149-1 - Turbo Pascal Reference Manual from Borland - Pascal With Style - Henry F. Ledgard / John F. Hueras / Paul A. Nagin - 0-8104-5124-7 - Pascal User Manual and Report Second Edition - Kathleen Jensen / Miklaus Wirth - 0-387-90144-2 / 3-540-90144-2 - Invitation to Pascal - Hary Katzan Jr. - 089433-103-5 - Oh! Pascal! - Doug Cooper / Michael Clancy - 0-393-95205-3 - Pascal Programs for Scientists and Engineers - Alan R. Miller - 0-89588-058-X - Mastering Turbo Pascal 5.5 Third Edition - Tom Swan - 0-672-48450-1 I'm mostly asking for postage and handling for book(s). If you want to tip your waiter, that's appreciated too.
Re: For Sale, Seattle area: Data General MV/7800 + drives, docs
G'day Lothar - I will contact you off-list... Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Denver, Colorado USA b...@wildharecomputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 11/23/2021 5:39 AM, info--- via cctech wrote: Hi Josh, my name is Lother Schröder. I'm living in Germany and I'm a collector of Data General machines. It would be nice to get the machine, but I'm afraid it's too difficult to get it here to germany. I have a MV/7800 here in my collection, but no documentation and software. My question is: Can you tell me what documentation or tapes you have? Perhaps I can get a copy. Thanks for today Kindly regards Lothar
Re: Extra books
On 11/24/21 4:24 PM, David Williams via cctalk wrote: Hi, Hi David, Some there I'd be interested in maybe if not all. Where are you located? Denver Colorado, U.S.A. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: Extra books
On 11/24/21 4:18 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: I find myself with some extra books (acquired as part of an auction) that I don't have any interest in keeping. As such, they are available to move to a home that will appreciate them more than mine will. The CBASIC and CP/M books have been spoken for. The Pascal books have a home if nobody raises their hand in the next few days. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
